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Microsoft: XBox 360 outpowers PS3

The_IGN_Man said:
I see what you're saying, and that's true, but the problem is that this is true on a grander scale. A lot of what this document does is nit pick, I think. You're not going to see any vast differences between something doing X amount of a certain processing, versus the competitors X+-2. I just don't buy that any of this document is truly worth reading from a gamers perspective (though it is from a marketers). It may be that where as I also enjoy tech specs, I just don't enjoy them as much as a lot of people on here. But that gets back to the real intent of my last statement: to what extent is someone able to enjoy mulling over and discussing the specs with friends before it becomes pointless. After a while, the specs are what they are, and the only thing left to do and spin them until you're happy with your "team" having won. I know that's not true for everyone, but for those people who fit into that category, those are the people I'm saying are in gaming for the wrong reasons. You could argue that their tech nuts for all the RIGHT reasons, but they're just not gamers for the right reasons, in my opinion. Also, please note that I'm a 3rd year CS major, so to anyone who would say "You just don't understand how people could enjoy talking about specs", you're wrong. I do understand, I just don't see the point when they're as close as they are. Maybe if I were getting $1,000,000 to prove my machine was better I would put forth a bit more enthusiasm, but until someone offers me that much to do so, I'll just stick to judging by the games themselves.

I agree. But, as of right now, we don't have the next-gen games in hand to play, so specs take their place, with talking and arguing over it allowing a form of entertainment to pass the time with. :lol And yes, the difference is going to be miniscule, IMO, between the two...with a few hardcore teams showing off the strengths of the both systems. I'm not a math/science guy...I'm an 2D art and design guy, so this stuff interests me in a, 'Hey, I'm learning some stuff' kind of way. Indeed, the games are the most important thing, otherwise, no one would bother to put these things together.
 
3rdman said:
Interesting how you're willing to believe one company's press release and not another? ;)

I was never a big follower of Cell but I do remember the original concept behind it before it was ever announced for the PS3. It was a design in which Cells in a multi-CPU enviorment would pull resourses together for greater and greater performance. I remember seeing diagrams and reading discussions about a multi-Cell PC being discussed...it was assumed that this was also the groundwork for the PS3.

Once unveiled, it turned out that it wasn't the end all of CPU's (don't know the details here) and then suddenly Nvidia announces that they've been working with Sony for 2 years. Perhaps that is true, but I don't believe it and instead I'm more inclined to believe that they were the backup option if Cell didn't produce. Anyways, that how I remember it.

Once what was unveiled? That's just it, the use of multiple cells for PS3 was an assumption, like you say. There was never any real, known early PS3 architectures floating around out there. At least none that I'm aware of. And I remember the same stuff as you, all the talk form Sony about multiple cells being placed in work stations and servers, things of that nature. I remember the debates on forums on whether or not cell was even going to be in the PS3.
 
Monk said:
I was just wondering, is it possible for the ps3's cell to do 1 integer op and 7 floating point ops at the same time?

Yes, you can use every one of the cores for either kind of math operations and more.
 
Wait, so Xbox 360's EDRAM is not really as fast as it was previously announced? The actual effective bandwidth from Xenos to EDRAM is around 22Gbytes/s for writes and 16 for reads? Isn't that actually no more than RSX reads/writes to its GDDR3 and/or XDR? I'm obviously missing something here so can someone clarify how that parent/daughterboard EDRAM setup works?
 
MS actions the last two days seem to me desperate and quite pathetic. What I find even more pathetic though, is the various xbox fansites which presented these charts as fact.

It would be more pathetic if they sat back and let sonys hype machine destroy them. At this point they are beating sony at their own game.
 
Holy hell. I think this is the last time I post in a Xbox 360 vs PS3 thread about the tech. Both sides are full of shit and so are their fans. :lol
 
CrimsonSkies said:
Holy hell. I think this is the last time I post in a Xbox 360 vs PS3 thread about the tech. Both sides are full of shit and so are their fans. :lol

But PS3 is STILL more powerful.
 
Marconelly said:
Wait, so Xbox 360's EDRAM is not really as fast as it was previously announced? The actual effective bandwidth from Xenos to EDRAM is around 22Gbytes/s for writes and 16 for reads? Isn't that actually no more than RSX reads/writes to its GDDR3 and/or XDR? I'm obviously missing something here so can someone clarify how that parent/daughterboard EDRAM setup works?

the EDram has 192 FPU units on board which does basic operations like FSAA/Z/occlussion culling/stencil shadows and does 256 GB/s between the edram and the logic. Between the Xenos and the edram is 22 GB/s W and 16 GB/s R. In articles you'll see it being called Smart3D RAM.

it's an awesome little setup, imo. This is where they get their "free" FSAA from. 4X FSAA under this setup is only a 2-5% performance drop

Amir0x said:
But PS3 is STILL more powerful.

on the contrary....
 
TheDuce22 said:
It would be more pathetic if they sat back and let sonys hype machine destroy them. At this point they are beating sony at their own game.

Basically, MS has no choice unless they want to be killed by Sony's hype machine.
 
DopeyFish said:
Actually there is. :lol

It's going to be hilarious the next couple months, I can't wait :)

It certainly will, DopeyFish. Also, ":lol" and ":)" does not cover up the clear bullshit being spread. I know you want certain things, Dopey, but it's better to just accept it. The actual visual difference will be minimal in the end anyway.
 
Amir0x said:
It certainly will, DopeyFish. Also, ":lol" and ":)" does not cover up the clear bullshit being spread.

May I ask what bullshit that is exactly, and it does cover both flavors of bullshit right? Both MS and Sony?

Just curious..

Davew
 
Davew49 said:
May I ask what bullshit that is exactly, and it does cover both flavors of bullshit right? Both MS and Sony?

Just curious..

Davew

It's referring ONLY to this MajorNelson piece.
 
Amir0x said:
It certainly will, DopeyFish. Also, ":lol" and ":)" does not cover up the clear bullshit being spread. I know you want certain things, Dopey, but it's better to just accept it. The actual visual difference will be minimal in the end anyway.

I agree. And by the way a question. What's the difference between the fanboys who defend MS's obvious PR spin and the Nintendo ones who even believed in Drinky's THUSDAYTON? It's so annoying.
 
fortified_concept said:
I agree. And by the way a question. What's the difference between the fanboys who defend MS's obvious PR spin and the Nintendo ones who even believed in Drinky's THUSDAYTON?

I'm not trying to get into a fanboy wars, I just think it's a little funny that a lot of people are so desperate to hold onto a rather pointless advantage that they can't just admit the obvious. PS3 is more powerful. No amount of fuzzy math is going to really change this. Additionally, no amount of "extra power" is going to make such a difference that it'll even be that different between multiplatform titles. I mean, PS2 was least powerful and that certainly did not stop it from getting a shitload of support and great games. Third party support is what is important.
 
Alright, thing i have learnt from this thread.

1 MS have fanbois at least as rabid as any i've ever seen

2 The article is comparing arsenic to thai food

3 lots of u know fuck all about anything

4 most of this has been debunked by people who know as point 2

5 Please don't ever have a go at sony again if u are in this thread as an Xbox fanboi, u are now in a very brittle glass house.

6 and please stop with this, most of u on both side have no FUCKING IDEA what u are talking about. Please stop. PLEASE!!!!
 
Amir0x said:
I'm not trying to get into a fanboy wars, I just think it's a little funny that a lot of people are so desperate to hold onto a rather pointless advantage that they can't just admit the obvious. PS3 is more powerful. No amount of fuzzy math is going to really change this. Additionally, no amount of "extra power" is going to make such a difference that it'll even be that different between multiplatform titles. I mean, PS2 was least powerful and that certainly did not stop it from getting a shitload of support and great games. Third party support is what is important.


The best looking top PC games from right now are the new "PS2 version". Anything that looks like the best Half-Life 2 can offer will be called "Xbox 1.5". Gears of War and Killzone 2 demo will be considered "next generation".
 
Speevy said:
The best looking top PC games from right now are the new "PS2 version". Anything that looks like the best Half-Life 2 can offer will be called "Xbox 1.5". Gears of War and Killzone 2 demo will be considered "next generation".

Heh. Well, I do expect my next-gen games to look more like Gears of War than, say, Frame City Killers... that's for damn sure :P
 
I would be hesitant to ridicule anyone somewhat supportive of this news based on the simple fact that MS (like Nintendo) got the short end of the stick as far as conference coverage goes (did anyone see the travesty that was G4? Or Morgan Web making a complete idiot of herself? I swear, I was expecting her to break out the kneepads and vaseline when Phil Harrison interviewed :lol pure comedy) simply because they chose not to show fabricated/prerendered "concept" footage. The truth is, it seems obvious that these two machines handle their particular tasks VERY differently, and are about as alike as oil and water. So adding up the numbers one way is just as valid as doing it another (Sony did it at their press conference, MS can do it all the same, and, IMO, it's just as "reliable" as Sony's) In the end, it all means shit. nothing. zip. Nada. It tells me that these machines are pretty close in power, especially when you can play with the numbers like that. In short, there isn't a significant enough difference between them (nor will there be, at least not if anybody wants to actually turn a profit this generation) to declare one a 'clear winner' hardware-wise. My money's on the Ps3 having a slight edge, but not enough that it will make much of a percievable difference. $300 is the magic number, I recall.
 
I can't believe everyone missed this part in the article (or did i scroll through the pages too fast?)

Xbox360 number of transistors in the GPU = 330 Million

PS3 number of transistors in the GPU = 300 Million

Xbox360 > PS3

:D
 
Amir0x said:
But PS3 is STILL more powerful.
demotivators_1843_13673393
 
JM at least 83+ million of the 330M of that is EDRAM and i gather from other sources the whole edram chip is in the order of 100M

So like the rest of this thread its apples v oranges
 
I've walked into the fucking twilight zone. Please, Please tell me people aren't seriously arguing that the Xbox 360 is superior in tech to the PS3...
 
lockii said:
I've walked into the fucking twilight zone. Please, Please tell me people aren't seriously arguing that the Xbox 360 is superior in tech to the PS3...
Nah - you just walked out of Sony's spin zone and into Microsofts. The truth is in between.
 
border said:
It seems a little disturbing that TeamXbox more-or-less reprinted this without telling anyone that it's direct-from-Microsoft spin. Partially because it's plaigarism (not that MS would care), and partially because it looks like someone's independent analysis. I know the site is supposed to have a huge pro-Xbox bias for the sake of getting its readers riled up, but at least let them know when you're just repeating when a corporation tells you. The whole concept of ViralMarketerNelson.com is kind of shady, so it's no surprise to see this there sans disclaimer.

what u expect from teamxbox? its the valhalla of the xbots
 
lockii said:
I've walked into the fucking twilight zone. Please, Please tell me people aren't seriously arguing that the Xbox 360 is superior in tech to the PS3...


Why not? Xenos seems far more innovative than RSX from what information has been released so far. PS3's CPU is certainly more innovative that the XCPU by virtue of its architecture, yet XCPU boasts interesting innovations of its own with dot product on chip. It's apples and oranges, but I don't think it's been made obvious how PS3 is clearly more powerful, as a whole, than the X360. It's been mostly early comments by a few developers, based on early and unfinished hardware that doesn't really represent the final systems in full speed and functionality, and Sony's PR at their press conference saying that PS3 is more powerful...but that's not factual evidence of their statements. The same is true for X360, yet many are siding with Sony's statements about a system that is not theirs and not finished. Again, the same is true for MS and its statements, but clearly, the majority of people on the internet believe Sony over them....when neither are in a position to make their claims about the other systems as fact yet. See what I'm saying?

Again, despite doing things differently from each other, they're very close, this much can be gleaned from what is out there. I'm beginning to think that many people are simply buying into Sony's and nVidia's side of the story because of their superior PR and all of the hype surrounding Cell...an unproven element in actual gaming. Too close to call...
 
basically what Hedgehog is saying is that we should hold out hope until your arm is cut off.

(Edit: I'm just joking, btw, don't take it seriously ;) )
 
Cold-Steel said:
UE3 is the leading choice of middleware on next generation platforms.

When a UE3 tech demo is developed in only two months and runs at 60FPS without a hitch on PS3 versus Gears of War which can barely hold a stable framerate and has been in development for more than double that time, I begin to wonder exactly who is lying to who in terms of realtime performance.

We've all seen the realtime demos: one ran smoothly, the other didn't.

The latter claims their console is vastly superior in power yet can't hold a performance cap for people to see and leaves many games in development running on alpha kits and unplayable on the showroom floor.

Does this make sense to anyone?

you mean sony had actual finished PS3 hardware?

What we had was, PS3 development kit with a dual 6800 in sli running ue3, versus a mac with a single x800 running gears of war.
Offcourse the ps3 kit would run it faster, it has 2 gpu's in it.

That said, i find it funny how people cry about MS making this statement.
Surely you'd expect them to make a reply when Sony made a claim that PS3 will be twice as powerfull then x360, witch even Pana considers bs
 
PS2 KID said:
Since Sony put out that PR. I think it's up their loyal followers to prove it.

Right back at ya. The absurdity rises.

Since you can't DISprove it, that's enough of a victory in this acinine argument.
 
PS2 KID said:
Reading the first post of this thread

This is without doubt about PR from Microsoft. Unless you happened to be blind?

No shit! And the stuff we have from Sony is THEIR PR! How the irony escapes you is mind-boggling.

PS2 KID said:
The Onus is on Microsoft to Prove it, since they themselves made these claims.

And Sony gets the free pass on their bullshit? Oye, the hypocracy.
 
seismologist said:
I just dont even care any more. Anyone who buys the Xbox 360 expecting it to be more powerful than the PS3 deserves what they get. :lol

quote of the thread!

Anyone expecting 360 to be more powerful than PS3 is in a world of denial.

I think M$ and Xbox fans in general are bitter at the thought of PS3 being more powerful. After all, last gen PS2 was the market leader but at least Xbox packed the most power. With Xbox no longer having that edge there isn't much to clinge to. There's still Xbox Live though!!!!111.
 
You've already got Allard trying to downplaying the importance of graphics now, this after MS used graphics as one of their biggest marketing campaigns for the Xbox. I'd say that's a pretty good sign right there.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Prove it. :)

XboxvsPS3.jpg


As you can see from this graph, the PS3 is clearly superior. It is by the number 800. This is a larger number than 100, which you can see the Xbox360 is closest to. We calculated this number because instead of 3 cores, PS3 has 1 core + 7 other things. That's 8! 8 is a larger number than 3, which is a conclusion I think most of us can agree on. The most damning evidence, though, is that PS3 can handle 400TFLOPS even while it is turned off, putting exactly no pressure on Cell whatsoever!
 
GhaleonEB said:
No shit! And the stuff we have from Sony is THEIR PR! How the irony escapes you is mind-boggling.
This isn't about Sony sending a document to IGN claiming hardware superiority. I think this is crystal clear. Don't you?

And Sony gets the free pass on their bullshit? Oye, the hypocracy.
Please. If anything the forum has been more than critical of Sony since the day after their E3 conference. You should know. You've been in most of those threads GhaleonEB.

However, I find it disturbing that no one is able to prove Microsoft's claim. As I said, they sent out the document. The onus is absolutely on them to prove that it's not just 'look at what we can do with numbers', don't you agree?
 
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