Support NeoGAF

[eastwood333]

What games can't you wait to play on your brand new all-American console system?

Do you have something against an "all-American console" or something? Strange comment to make.

 

[llien]

lets say PS5 is 0-18% behind

Where the heck do those numbers come from? By the most optimistic assessment (comparing max clock to guaranteed clock) it is more than 20% behind.

Wake up, XSeX has 44% more CUs, the gap is MASSIVE. The fact that they managed to cut it in half via OCing is also remarkable on Sony side.

 

[Zathalus]

Posted previous page back, what we know so far....points as so...

Sony claims TE is roughly an entire PS4 cpu (1.6ghz 8 jagcores)
MS claims XSX-a is more powerful then entire X1X cpu. (2.6ghz 8 jagcores)

Yeah, but they are also comparing different metrics.

Tempest -> Where we ended up is a unit with roughly the same SIMD power and bandwidth as all eight Jaguar cores in the PS4 combined.

Xbox -> Greater SPFP HW math then all 8x CPUs in Xbox One X.

 

[M1chl]

Dead serious fam, one of my degrees is in Audio Engineering and Production and this thread is a few pages of people arguing that ish when I don't even care lol. As long as it sounds good lol

Yeah well, Audio Engineering is complicated field...for a human. How to make shit sounds good from crappy headphones to massive speakers. Not sure that this cannot be somewhat automated, compression, stereo/surround-imaging, dithering, etc...shit is not easy.

 

[Azurro]

Well at least on the audio we know PS5's Tempest Engine is a reworked CU so roughly 285 GFLOPs raw performance there and able to take up to 20 GB/s of system bandwidth

OTOH Series X's audio solution being equivalent to One X CPU would put it at around 148 GFLOPs if this chart is to be believed. That's raw numbers, anyway. They say it's actually greater though, so it would be at least 150 GFLOPs of audio performance here, and then you also need to take architectural gains into account. I don't know the IPC gains Zen 2 has over Jaguar, but assuming it's same as RDNA1 over GCN, that'd be a 50% IPC gain, so it would be equivalent to 222 - 225 GFLOPs of the One X CPU for their audio solution (on the low end, it could be more than that in actuality).

So not quite as capable as Sony's but not far off, either. They're within great range of one another and that's just off of what I could analyze very quickly.

The mental gymnastics are impressive. You don't understand this information, much less are capable of making any comparisons. Since when is audio equipment measured in teraflops?

Stop trying to hype yourself up and others over something you don't understand.

 

[zaitsu]

Possibly, but after the disaster of the Xbox One launching one hundred bucks more than the PS4, i can't see them ever doing that again. Then you go by the rumors from some well respected insiders about XSX being even cheaper than the PS5.

I think MS is against a wall here and are desperate to gain back marketshare and Phil has hinted that he has Satya(MS CEO) full support. I think MS can afford to take a hit and must given the sheer dominance of Sony this gen.

I 100% believe XSX will be the same price as PS5, or lower. XSS will be 200 bucks lower than what ever the XSX/PS5 price is.

XsX 599/549 ( monster energy promo)
PS5 599/499
PS5 DE 499/399
XsS 399
XoS v2 299 ( so media stores had update )

Thats how prices will be.

 

[TBiddy]

The mental gymnastics are impressive. You don't understand this information, much less are capable of making any comparisons. Since when is audio equipment measured in teraflops?

Stop trying to hype yourself up and others over something you don't understand.

Cerny mentioned that Tempest was running at 64 FLOPS per cycle.

 

[M1chl]

XsX 599/549 ( monster energy promo)
PS5 599/499
PS5 DE 499/399
XsS 399
XoS v2 299 ( so media stores had update )

Thats how prices will be.

Now it's pretty clear that XoS v2 at 299USD seem pretty plausible because these consoles is going to cost more. Wonder if that XoS v2 is X1X APU with some more run of a mill cooling.

 

[pawel86ck]

25% improvement is probably compared to Xbox One X (custom polaris). 25% sounds way too good compared to RDNA1.

 

[eastwood333]

XsX 599/549 ( monster energy promo)
PS5 599/499
PS5 DE 499/399
XsS 399
XoS v2 299 ( so media stores had update )

Thats how prices will be.

Definitely makes sense why neither company wants to go first with pricing. So much at stake. However, MS/Sony can always change the price again if the other one up's the other, despite a little bad PR publicity that will be quickly be forgotten/understandable.

 

[John254]

XsX 599/549 ( monster energy promo)
PS5 599/499
PS5 DE 499/399
XsS 399
XoS v2 299 ( so media stores had update )

Thats how prices will be.

So, let me get this straight

Sony will take out disc drive and instantly lower the price of system to 399$
Microsoft will take out disc drive, make a smaller APU, lower the requirements of cooling, make a smaller box and they will have price it at 399$

I don't know what are you smoking, but I want some of that...

 

[John254]

Definitely makes sense why neither company wants to go first with pricing. So much at stake. However, MS/Sony can always change the price again if the other one up's the other, despite a little bad PR publicity that will be quickly be forgotten/understandable.

I think that this waiting game is only because neither company want's to be "bearer of bad news." If it is clear, that new consoles will be around 599$, I didn't want to be that person who will tell that to the public first.

 

[ZywyPL]

At the end of the day anyone interested in the best quality surround sound knows who does it better - Xbox. Mostly because they have decided to actually put an emphasis on it and support it properly (including with Dolby Atmos). Sony wants to focus on "3D stereo" in headphones - that's fine, but if you have a nice high-end surround sound setup don't expect more than 5.1/7.1 from Sony, they don't care. All the gflops in the world will not help you have height & overhead speaker info, so the tempest is constrained to a tea-pot. Big whoop.

I think that's exactly Sony's point - to offer 3D/surround to a much broader audience by enabling it on a decent headphones, that cost only a fraction of of expensive soundbar/surround setup.

 

[DForce]

Where the heck do those numbers come from? By the most optimistic assessment (comparing max clock to guaranteed clock) it is more than 20% behind.

Wake up, XSeX has 44% more CUs, the gap is MASSIVE. The fact that they managed to cut it in half via OCing is also remarkable on Sony side.

I/O and SSD being much, much faster doesn't factor into the power difference?


More games will start taking better advantage of data streaming and RT.


PlayStation 5 will have an advantage of data streaming and Xbox Series X will have the advantage of Ray Tracing.

 

[eastwood333]

I think that this waiting game is only because neither company want's to be "bearer of bad news." If it is clear, that new consoles will be around 599$, I didn't want to be that person who will tell that to the public first.

Eh, i think both are worried about the other possibly coming out cheaper. Also waiting to see if the global economies start to rebound. And Lockhart just adds more uncertainty for Sony on pricing the PS5.

 

[longdi]

Yeah, but they are also comparing different metrics.

Tempest -> Where we ended up is a unit with roughly the same SIMD power and bandwidth as all eight Jaguar cores in the PS4 combined.

Xbox -> Greater SPFP HW math then all 8x CPUs in Xbox One X.

Thats down to Sony, their silence on detailed performance numbers.
All we heard of Tempest engine is how good how good it can do HRTF or sorts.

 

[Gaz]

Lets be honest' Sony isn't being transparent here because its lost the power narrative. That's fine; it can focus on delivering great looking first party games like it always does.

Its not the end of the world if the XSX outperform the PS5 by a margin of 20%.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

People still peddling the RDNA 1.0 FUD lol.

God, the year before a new gen launch is the worst time to be a gamer. The amount of armchair engineering makes me dizzy.

 

[M1chl]

People still peddling the RDNA 1.0 FUD lol.

God, the year before a new gen launch is the worst time to be a gamer. The amount of armchair engineering makes me dizzy.

As much as arm chair engineering about audio chip is annoying, I don't see any RDNA 1 stuff in here. ONly IPC comparison. MAybe I overlooked, but it's certainly less annoying than how much audio silicong has flops...

 

[pawel86ck]

Interesting, Moore's Law Is Dead suggest based on XSX Hot Chips info RDNA2 RT performance will be supperior compared to Turing. I knew it must be the case, because RT results on PS5 were too impressive. RTX 2060 cant run RT at 4K 30fps like PS5, and it looks like PS5 will run some RT games at 4K 60fps as well.

 

[Aceofspades]

I guess MS was bemused by the Tempest Engine hyping, despite they have the stronger audio compute which we know of now.
I mean audio is just 100~150GF in both of them, lotsa spare change.

As for that post, it is assuming that PS5 will sustain 2.23ghz in all scenarios.
And do we know PS5 ROP count yet?
Sony still so quiet on specs breakdown...

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[TBiddy]

So, let me get this straight

Sony will take out disc drive and instantly lower the price of system to 399$
Microsoft will take out disc drive, make a smaller APU, lower the requirements of cooling, make a smaller box and they will have price it at 399$

I don't know what are you smoking, but I want some of that...

To be fair, a digital only version of the console would guarantee Sony a 30% cut of all game sales.

 

[DonkeyKong]

The X sounds like a impressive bit of kit, little bit concerned about the price though not sure I could drop 600 £/$ day one if it's thats much

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

As much as arm chair engineering about audio chip is annoying, I don't see any RDNA 1 stuff in here. ONly IPC comparison. MAybe I overlooked, but it's certainly less annoying than how much audio silicong has flops...

Microsoft Xbox Series X's AMD Architecture Deep Dive at Hot Chips 2020

If anybody knows MS engineers, please forward them a request to have remote play feature supporting macbooks. :lollipop_raising_hand: Thank you.

www.neogaf.com

Hit the link for the RDNA 1 post.

Mod of War since the 9 teraflop troll bait is not allowed, could the RDNA 1 bait be treated the same? These next-gen threads go in circles

 

[M1chl]

How did you come to this conclusion?

Based on what people wrote, PS5 has power of PS4 CPU, which is lower than X1X CPU. But pardon me, I am only sort of "moderating" this thread of mine, I have not verified anything.

Microsoft Xbox Series X's AMD Architecture Deep Dive at Hot Chips 2020

If anybody knows MS engineers, please forward them a request to have remote play feature supporting macbooks. :lollipop_raising_hand: Thank you.

www.neogaf.com

Shame...

 

[Eliciel]

I really loved Sony this generation and I trust their games, mentality and empathy for AAA games a lot. So, I am no less intrigued by last generation to be honest.

However, let's be honest and fair for a moment fellow gamers:

It really seems that both companies focussed on different paths. I doubt the PS5 has secrect sauce left, they just took a different route and will try to deliver the best they can through optimization and gaming experience. I personally think, nothing can put the PS5 in front of XSEX anymore. XSEX will be more powerful in raw-computational power and thus also in Ray Tracing performance. At the end of the day it was always what Phil, Aaron and Xbox wanted, to be the Most Power, Fastest Console in the world and they are looking to be become just that.

Pricing will be key also, but just in parts as MS is not looking to sell as many XSEX as possible, leaving them open for $600-$700. This is a high-end, top-notch console and you will pay the price for it.

In term of Sony:
Now it is all up to games to demonstrate whether Sony has put the money on the right things to deliver an amazing performance.
The last solution to all of this is for sure even a "last-minute change" or a re-fresh PS5Pro Mid-Gen.

 

[SoraNoKuni]

The most interesting part in this is the ML capabilities, Sony hasn't talked about something like that AFAIK.

It's quite interesting they try to hit native 4K when they have dlss like features, it's a bad choice IMO.
Better IQ and ML upscale that thing.

Sony, your turn.

 

[M1chl]

It really seems that both companies focussed on different paths. I doubt the PS5 has secrect sauce left, they just took a different route and will try to deliver the best they can through optimization and gaming experience. I personally think, nothing can put the PS5 in front of XSEX anymore. XSEX will be more powerful in raw-computational power and thus also in Ray Tracing performance. At the end of the day it was always what Phil, Aaron and Xbox wanted, to be the Most Power, Fastest Console in the world and they are looking to be become just that.
Now it is all up to games to demonstrate whether Sony has put the money on the right things to deliver an amazing performance.

The last solution to all of this is for sure even a "last-minute change" or a re-fresh PS5Pro Mid-Gen.

Also feels like at least MS was power bound, so it can use that 2pin power plug, not sure about regulation, but maybe game consoles are now bound with power restrictions as well thanks to them being on most of the time. Not sure tho.

The most interesting part in this is the ML capabilities, Sony hasn't talked about something like that AFAIK.

It's quite interesting they try to hit native 4K when they have dlss like features, it's a bad choice IMO.
Better IQ and ML upscale that thing.

Sony, your turn.

Sounds like "true dlss" solution is still way off, so first they going to try run at higher resolution and then they add more advanced features. I guess that with every console gen you see big graphical improvement even tho HW stays the same.

 

[John254]

To be fair, a digital only version of the console would guarantee Sony a 30% cut of all game sales.

Yes, I get it
But Lockhart won't have disc drive either. But it also will have: 20CU at 1550MHz instead of 52CU's (that's rumor), 6GB GDDR6 RAM less, cheaper cooling solution, smaller box

I just find it funny, that people expect Sony to shave 100$ from base PS5 to DE just because absent disc drive, but at same time don't expect 150-200$ shave for Lockhart, when it has huge BOM saving measures on top of "being digital only console"

 

[Eliciel]

Also feels like at least MS was power bound, so it can use that 2pin power plug, not sure about regulation, but maybe game consoles are now bound with power restrictions as well thanks to them being on most of the time. Not sure tho.

But power bound with what effect? Because they choose a quite potent system here. Do you mean they could have been even more powerful or how do you mean your argument, just for my understanding?

 

[Phrixotrichus]

At the end of the day it was always what Phil, Aaron and Xbox wanted, to be the Most Power, Fastest Console in the world and they are looking to be become just that.

How does the Lockhart fit into this narrative? After all that will be the development baseline and not the series x........

 

[M1chl]

But power bound with what effect? Because they choose a quite potent system here. Do you mean they could have been even more powerful or how do you mean your argument, just for my understanding?

I think with their clocks, I guess they could run chip at 2Ghz GPU part, but it would eat much of power budget. It's speculation, but most likely this is max what they can run and not overshoot the power budget. (like what you can draw from the wall)

 

[eastwood333]

How does the Lockhart fit into this narrative? After all that will be the development baseline and not the series x........

XSX=most powerful next gen console.
XSS=cheapest next gen console.

Both have RDNA2 gpu,Zen2 Cpu,and SSD. Lockhart should not hold back the XSX.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

The most interesting part in this is the ML capabilities, Sony hasn't talked about something like that AFAIK.

It's quite interesting they try to hit native 4K when they have dlss like features, it's a bad choice IMO.
Better IQ and ML upscale that thing.

Sony, your turn.

Definitely.. Especially when it comes down to something along the lines of DLSS.

Curious to see where we go from here

 

[martino]

I/O and SSD being much, much faster doesn't factor into the power difference?


More games will start taking better advantage of data streaming and RT.


PlayStation 5 will have an advantage of data streaming and Xbox Series X will have the advantage of Ray Tracing.

I/o give no power and without clear data on how ssd perform for ramdom/mix reads you can't assume based on all known ssd data in this scenario the difference will stay as big as comparing loading sequential data.
I don't understand why people act like sequential specs are what they will have streaming doing mix reads with mostly ramdom ones(typical scenarios only has 30-40% sequential data)

Interesting, Moore's Law Is Dead suggest based on XSX Hot Chips info RDNA2 RT performance will be supperior compared to Turing. I knew it must be the case, because RT results on PS5 were too impressive. RTX 2060 cant run RT at 4K 30fps like PS5, and it looks like PS5 will run some RT games at 4K 60fps as well.

Ok i'm so upset by nvidia rumored prices that i want to believe that...
nividia reveal could kill MLID or reinforce reputation with such claims (for people without agenda)

 

[Eliciel]

How does the Lockhart fit into this narrative? After all that will be the development baseline and not the series x........

Oh trust me it fits perfectly well: Xbox strategy is not about the console.
They do not focus on selling consoles, their value proposition is GamesPass, no matter what you choose to play the games from. However, should you choose MS to be your sole-provider for Hardware and Software, you are getting the most powerful console on the market. With that argument you can easily drag the price up quite a bit. >(600+)

However, what do you do with the people who like console gaming and chilling on their couch ? You give them something more affordable, something that is sufficient and that can bring forward the gaming in an acceptable next gen experience= Lockhart. (300+)

...and what do you do with the people who don't give a crap about 1080p/4K graphics, but just want to play games and not pay too much money?
You give them Xbox One S v2.0 at a very good price point (~199)

 

[CrysisFreak]

Right

I'm expecting both of them to come in $549 - $599. Shit I bought a ps3 day one at $599 as a broke college student, I can definitely afford a PS5 or Xbox Series X without breaking the bank just like I did the 2080 Super in my machine, and the one downstairs in my wifes machine lol.

They built a behemoth of a console. Now they just have to show us what it can do. Same with Sony, let them games fly its time

You'll find out 2022

 

[Eliciel]

You'll find out 2022

Why so late?

 

[Phrixotrichus]

you are getting the most powerful console on the market. With that argument you can easily drag the price up quite a bit. >(600+)

However, what do you do with the people who like console gaming and chilling on their couch ? You give them something more affordable, something that is sufficient and that can bring forward the gaming in an acceptable next gen experience= Lockhart. (300+)

...and what do you do with the people who don't give a crap about 1080p/4K graphics, but just want to play games and not pay too much money?
You give them Xbox One S v2.0 at a very good price point (~199)

What you describe is a recipe for desaster on the software side.,.....This might all sound nice from a marketing perspecitve but from a games perspective this is a nightmare.

 

[Eliciel]

What you describe is a recipe for desaster on the software side.,.....This might all sound nice from a marketing perspecitve but from a games perspective this is a nightmare.

and I agree with you 100%, I don't believe in the concept, but I start seeing it...

 

[Jon Neu]

Cerny mentioned that Tempest was running at 64 FLOPS per cycle.

Obviously Cerny is doing mental gymnastics and doesn't hold a candle to the mighty Azurro .

 

[CrysisFreak]

Why so late?

Because of their first party cross-gen policy?!

Also, reading this thread it's baffling how many disingenuous side chars imply Sony hasn't shown anything running on PS5.
They literally informed you that every single gameplay snippet in their presentation was literally fucking CAPTURED on PS5. Open your eyes do the old flushing procedure.

 

[TBiddy]

Why so late?

He's trolling. Don't pay him attention.

 

[M1chl]

What you describe is a recipe for desaster on the software side.,.....This might all sound nice from a marketing perspecitve but from a games perspective this is a nightmare.

I mean welcome to PC programming 101, besides at least here the CPU side is same and GPU is not even 4x weaker (you know 4x 1080p = 4K). I think that it could work, especially when it seems like it's going ot be expensive.

Because of their first party cross-gen policy?!

Also, reading this thread it's baffling how many disingenuous side chars imply Sony hasn't shown anything running on PS5.
They literally informed you that every single gameplay snippet in their presentation was literally fucking CAPTURED on PS5. Open your eyes do the old flushing procedure.

Meh that's just for 1st party and we already see that they are not prepared. The "cross-gen policy" sounds like a "we don't have next-gen games ready"...

 

[psorcerer]

What you describe is a recipe for desaster on the software side.,.....This might all sound nice from a marketing perspecitve but from a games perspective this is a nightmare.

MSFT never had gamers or game developers at the top positions.
They really don't see any problem here.

 

[intheinbetween]

Oh trust me it fits perfectly well: Xbox strategy is not about the console.
They do not focus on selling consoles, their value proposition is GamesPass, no matter what you choose to play the games from. However, should you choose MS to be your sole-provider for Hardware and Software, you are getting the most powerful console on the market. With that argument you can easily drag the price up quite a bit. >(600+)

However, what do you do with the people who like console gaming and chilling on their couch ? You give them something more affordable, something that is sufficient and that can bring forward the gaming in an acceptable next gen experience= Lockhart. (300+)

...and what do you do with the people who don't give a crap about 1080p/4K graphics, but just want to play games and not pay too much money?
You give them Xbox One S v2.0 at a very good price point (~199)

The key with GP is , how does work its business model? I mean, how much money do get third-parties from the titles they agreed to put in the GP library?

Is it more interesting business-wise for third parties?

 

[M1chl]

MSFT never had gamers or game developers at the top positions.
They really don't see any problem here.

Well, Phil actually play games. And I do think that it's vastly overrated how much potential XSS will compicate development.

 

[NEbeast]

Well it's also going to be Hot Chips for PS5, no need to bring some aggressive debate in here. It's always the same...

Its funny,I just read through all pages and its you xbox guys starting the drama, then you guys cry wolf. Kinda sad, really

 

[martino]

Well, Phil actually play games. And I do think that it's vastly overrated how much potential XSS will compicate development.

Imo we need more credible feedback (less rumors) on the matter to even think something.

 

[cormack12]

Plot twist - after all the wars, all of GAF buys Lockhart while waitiing for next gen to drop in price