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Microsoft's Apple obssession resulted in this rotten Core.

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Microsoft can't stop talking about the Apple iPod. I have heard the Xbox team talk about iPod over and over again ad nauseam. They designed the physical look of the Xbox 360 to look like an iPod. (White case with chrome accents, large circle in the middle) I've heard them say many times how they desire to replicate the iPods consumer electronics success with the Xbox. I've heard them say that they want to offer consumers the choice of multiple Xbox offerings the way Apple does with iPod. I've heard them say that the Xbox 360 Core is supposed to be like the iPod Shuffle. Well here's where I think it all went wrong...

Imagine if Apple had released the iPod Shuffle on the same day as the original iPod except the Shuffle was the same exact size as the iPod and only $100 less. Now imagine if because of the Shuffle's limited memory storage space Apple told all of the artists that their iTunes songs would have to be restricted to a max bitrate of 96kbps. All the songs on iTunes would be lower quality and sound inferior to competing music download services, potentially hurting the future of both iTunes and iPod. This is essentially what MS has done to Xbox 360 and it's games.

If MS wanted to replicate the success of iPod and iPod shuffle with Xbox 360 and 360 core, then they should have waited some time before releasing the core and they should not have limited the potential of their games to accomodate the core. The main reasons why someone would buy an iPod shuffle are its significantly smaller size and low price advantage over the iPod. The Xbox 360 core should have come out at a time when MS could give people a smaller redesigned Xbox 360 possibly with some bells and whistles like wi-fi at a very low cost. Like the shuffle, the core system should have had a sizeable portion of flash memory built into it thereby allowing game developers to make full use of the Xbox 360's HDD without having to worry about supporting a system without memory.

Apple could have easily launched a flash player at the same time that the iPod first came out, but this move would have diluted the quality of the iPod name before it could become a phenomenon. Instead Apple waited until a time where they could offer a smaller audio device at a signficantly cheaper price. Timing is important! The reasons for MS to wait are simple, it gives them the opportunity to associate a high quality standard with the Xbox 360 brand and it also gives them time to eventually offer a low cost system in the $100-$150 range which is truly attractive to the low end consumer. The low end consumer is not going to be interested in an expensive $300 device that offers no practical use, size, or design advantages over the Xbox 360.

xbox360core.jpg
Shuffle_box.jpg
beautyshot_ipodshuffle_050111.jpg


The main mistakes MS made in trying to copy Apple iPod Shuffle are:

1.) The core is not signficantly cheaper than Xbox 360 keeping it out of reach of the low budget consumer.
2.) The core's hardware offers no unique or desireable advantages over Xbox 360 (ie. smaller size, wi-fi, unique design)
3.) The core's memory limitations should not have been allowed to lower the potential quality of all Xbox 360 games.
4.) The core should not have been launched simultatneously with the Xbox 360 because it dilutes the level of quality associated with the brand.


musiclifestyle20050118.jpg

Unlike the 360 Core, the iPod Shuffle offered users unique design advantages and an inexpensive pricepoint without affecting the quality of the content created for it.
 
This thread has nothing to do with MS's tactics being slimy. I believe they tried to emulate the iPod Shuffle concept with the Xbox 360 Core but they made some important mistakes along the way. I don't think it was a bad idea what MS was trying to do, I think they just did a bad job of copying Apple's business model. You can't blame them for trying to replicate the success of the iPod, but they got ahead of themselves and released this Core product into the market way too early.
 
---- said:
without affecting the quality of the content created for it.
Yeah sure, put an album in there and enjoy listening to it in random order. Ipod Shuffle is a ripoff that would have been a complete sales disaster if it did not have the Ipod brand on it.
 
Clever title. I give it a 7.5.

EDIT - Good editorial on the X360 price structure. Hadn't thought about it that way and you make a good point.
 
Blimblim said:
Yeah sure, put an album in there and enjoy listening to it in random order. Ipod Shuffle is a ripoff that would have been a complete sales disaster if it did not have the Ipod brand on it.

You don't have to listen to everything you put in there in random order, genius. See the pics at the top of the thread? There are two settings. One of them is in the order you put the tracks on the device.

Feel free to trash gidgets, just do your research first.
 
There is some truth to the fact that the Shuffle has been a success because of the iPod name. This is why MS should have waited to establish the Xbox 360 name first and have people automatically associate it with high quality. The other major reason the Shuffle has been successful is because the $99 pricetag is really attractive to consumers. $299 for a video game console is far from being an impulse buy for consumers. Very few people are going to "test the water" with Xbox 360 Core at $299.

I think Microsoft definitely got the timing wrong on this Core system and they should not have made any compromises with regards to game development. If a couple of years from now MS introduced the Xbox 360 Core and it came with a cheap memory stick device like the iPod Shuffle developers could have programmed their games to assume that a large memory device was always there.
 
---- said:
There is some truth to the fact that the Shuffle has been a success because of the iPod name. This is why MS should have waited to establish the Xbox 360 name first and have people automatically associate it with high quality. The other major reason the Shuffle has been successful is because the $99 pricetag is really attractive to consumers. $299 for a video game console is far from being an impulse buy for consumers. Very few people are going to "test the water" with Xbox 360 Core at $299.

Great response to a dopey post.
 
---- said:
There is some truth to the fact that the Shuffle has been a success because of the iPod name. This is why MS should have waited to establish the Xbox 360 name first and have people automatically associate it with high quality. The other major reason the Shuffle has been successful is because the $99 pricetag is really attractive to consumers. $299 for a video game console is far from being an impulse buy for consumers. Very few people are going to "test the water" with Xbox 360 Core at $299.
The thing is: the Xbox name and logo is already a household name. I can even ask my aging old grandmother (who turns 92 next week) what an Xbox is and she will know. They may be making a mistake with such an expensive price tag in the begining, but people already know and trust the Microsoft brand. I've had mine since launch day and it's one of the few consoles I've ever owned that has worked flawlessly.
 
dot-Nick said:
The thing is: the Xbox name and logo is already a household name. I can even ask my aging old grandmother (who turns 92 next week) what an Xbox is and she will know. They may be making a mistake with such an expensive price tag in the begining, but people already know and trust the Microsoft brand. I've had mine since launch day and it's one of the few consoles I've ever owned that has worked flawlessly.

Things change. Atari, Sega, and Nintendo were all once household names as well.
 
AniHawk said:
Things change. Atari, Sega, and Nintendo were all once household names as well.


Yep. To think that five years from now folks are going to be saying Sony who?
 
I was thinking more on the lines of Infinium Labs and Phantom ;)
 
---- said:
Microsoft can't stop talking about the Apple iPod. I have heard the Xbox team talk about iPod over and over again ad nauseam. They designed the physical look of the Xbox 360 to look like an iPod.
More like the Dell Optiplex in white
dell_optiplex260_1.jpg
 
Interesting parallel, and I've thought about it a bit too, but I think it might be a little exaggerative in this light.

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It's funny watching BlimBlim do an about face in his role of talking about the 360. Originally he was an eye-opening seer who would leak unto us poor souls secret unknown truths about the console. He seemed very level-handed in all this.

But now that the pricing shit has hit the fan, he really just seems to be doing constant damage control in response to many of the redundant complaints being ledged against Microsoft of the pricing plan. It really does read as though he's shifted his stance to an overly defensive one, and it isn't particularly persuasive or becoming. Makes me wonder if he's worried that if the 360 becomes irrelevant, no one will give a shit about the insider info he is sometims able to acquire.

I can sympathize, but still.

-----

The truth of the matter is that the Core system will still be a functional gaming system. It's not as though they're limiting Core sales to refurbs that have been hit with sledgehammers. I think the biggest problem was on Microsoft's part when they completely failed to manage hype creep and have a clear plan on the table for the people who follow the industry closely.

I think a better parallel would be the Bill Clinton impeachment process: "If he hadn't have lied, it wouldn't have mattered what wrong he did." The 360 backlash feels similar to me, and I think that once the console is out, it'll probably settle down.

As for the long-term viability of the platform, that's another issue. But if something kills the 360, it won't be this. It'll probably be that they jumped the gun and tried releasing a system when there wasn't demand for one, where they tried to create a demand that didn't exist. It won't be because the Core pack lacks a hard drive that is barely utilized by games anyway.
 
Juice said:
It's funny watching BlimBlim do an about face in his role of talking about the 360. Originally he was an eye-opening seer who would leak unto us poor souls secret unknown truths about the console. He seemed very level-handed in all this.

But now that the pricing shit has hit the fan, he really just seems to be doing constant damage control in response to many of the redundant complaints being ledged against Microsoft of the pricing plan. It really does read as though he's shifted his stance to an overly defensive one, and it isn't particularly persuasive or becoming. Makes me wonder if he's worried that if the 360 becomes irrelevant, no one will give a shit about the insider info he is sometims able to acquire.

I can sympathize, but still.

He was always pro Xbox360, and i don't think he would change that now, so he's just being himself.

Juice said:
The truth of the matter is that the Core system will still be a functional gaming system. It's not as though they're limiting Core sales to refurbs that have been hit with sledgehammers. I think the biggest problem was on Microsoft's part when they completely failed to manage hype creep and have a clear plan on the table for the people who follow the industry closely.

I think a better parallel would be the Bill Clinton impeachment process: "If he hadn't have lied, it wouldn't have mattered what wrong he did." The 360 backlash feels similar to me, and I think that once the console is out, it'll probably settle down.

As for the long-term viability of the platform, that's another issue. But if something kills the 360, it won't be this. It'll probably be that they jumped the gun and tried releasing a system when there wasn't demand for one, where they tried to create a demand that didn't exist. It won't be because the Core pack lacks a hard drive that is barely utilized by games anyway.

I agree. It has been plain clear that the Hard Drive will be mostly for storage. It's not that it won't have the same or more advantages some games made use of in the current Xbox, but is less and less likely with the current state of things. Loading times are the only thing that i'd imagine being boosted. What matters the most is that both systems can play the same games (for what is known so far), so it's 100 dollars less at start plus 39.99 for the mem card. Still a 60 dollars advantage for the ones who don't give 2 shits about live (with a headset at least). that lets you buy 2 games for the same price you'd buy the Premium system with only 1 game. There are advantages afterall....

I think that demand will originate in how much impact the initial set of games has when we finally get to see them as they were meant to be seen from the beginning, and if developers get the job done right, it won't be a problem.
 
JMPovoa said:
He was always pro Xbox360, and i don't think he would change that now, so he's just being himself.

I'm not saying he wasn't... I guess it's just that you never sound like you're being ridiculous if you're leading the winning team. When you're the captain of a sinking ship, still muttering about, then things start to look a bit more petty.

And it's nothing against BlimBlim, I just think people are plenty entitled to be complaining over the wool MS pulled over most of your eyes. Of course, they don't give two shits what we think, as they could crap out the stupidest system in history and we'd still buy it. It's what makes us hardcore!

Same Dude as the First Quote[/QUOTE said:
I agree. It has been plain clear that the Hard Drive will be mostly for storage. It's not that it won't have the same or more advantages some games made use of in the current Xbox, but is less and less likely with the current state of things. Loading times are the only thing that i'd imagine being boosted. What matters the most is that both systems can play the same games (for what is known so far), so it's 100 dollars less at start plus 39.99 for the mem card. Still a 60 dollars advantage for the ones who don't give 2 shits about live (with a headset at least). that lets you buy 2 games for the same price you'd buy the Premium system with only 1 game. There are advantages afterall....

I think that demand will originate in how much impact the initial set of games has when we finally get to see them as they were meant to be seen from the beginning, and if developers get the job done right, it won't be a problem.

In a sense, the DOA4, MTV, Alpha-kit, BC, Beta-kit, and Pricing debacles are all completely peripheral to the biggest issue: whether there is any software to drive hardware sales. In a way, all of these other humiliating thins have been good for Microsoft, as they've distracted the conversation away from the pretty clear suspicion that the actual launch day will be pretty slim pickings in terms of AAA games. I'm sure that many of the games will be enjoyable and playable, but it really doesn't appear that a "killer app" is anywhere near the launch window, in my opinion.

In the short term, that's the issue that really should be addressed more than it is.

I understand a lot of people are pumped for PGR3, but didn't they just say it probably won't make launch day? Additionally, I'm sure Oblivion will be great, but even better on a PC with a full-on mod community behind it (given how Morrowind worked out). Aside from those two games, the rest of the "launch window" line-up looks a bit weak in the knees.

I'm sure it'll still sell, but I'm sure that there's plenty of internal strife over the current launch line-up. Especially with so many questionable screens (like Tony Hawk today) hitting the net.
 
I'll take Blimblim over the sudden influx of drama queens around here.

As far as packaging and pricing for X360, I don't think that has much to do with emulating iPod, I think its just a matter of $399 being the price MS wanted to sell the X360 at and $299 being the price they thought they had to sell it at.

If you have to create a fantasy scenario for the iPod in order to bolster your point that X360 is like the real thing...well, you may need to go back to the drawing board.

And I've seen the Xbox team mentioning the PS2 quite a bit recently, too.
 
If the core system was between $200-250 then the tard pak would make Soooooooo much more sense and that would really be a budget low-cost SKU for broke gamers. But at 300 it just ain't happenin its like something went terribly wrong at the board meeting.
 
AniHawk said:
Hey, it still could be a complete sales disaster. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

*focuses internal energy hoping to make AniHawks wishful thinking to come true*

Focus people! Focus!
 
echoshifting said:
You don't have to listen to everything you put in there in random order, genius. See the pics at the top of the thread? There are two settings. One of them is in the order you put the tracks on the device.

Feel free to trash gidgets, just do your research first.
My bad, sorry. I had always assumed the name of the thing implied random playback. I'll still say it's a ripoff considering you can get players with a LCD screen for the same price, but I admit I was wrong.
As for the the core system, I don't like it either. But I guess the fact that I knew about it for quite some time helped me getting used to the idea. Since I'm european, the pricing of the full Xbox 360 system don't bother me that much. Both Xbox and PS2 started at a quite higher pricing here, and even if it was a disaster for Xbox, it certainly did not prevent PS2 to be the success it is now.
In the end, it's the games that will decide which system will be successful or not. And it's all that matters.
 
Blimblim said:
In the end, it's the games that will decide which system will be successful or not. And it's all that matters.

Quoted for truth.

It's just that, this whole debacle over the last week or so has made me realize that I can wait, because there simply isn't any game I gotta have. Not for 400 bucks at least.
 
Nice to see that I'm not the only one with that theory, the x360 feels nothing like a succesor of the xbox because that
 
I have had an iPod, and let me tell you, the pod is the best marketing worst peice of junk ever. Apples PR department has done a fantastic job in making the iPod a fashion acessory instead of a player. I have now the Zen Touch by creative which is louder, battery lasts 24 hours, cheaper, and holds more.

Kudos to apples marketing department, every ipod i have had has crased and lasted only a few hours on battery, but BOY DID I LOOK COOL!

If Microsoft can do the same thing with Xbox360 they will sell a crapload... if they suceed in making it a status acessory.
 
Shaheed79 said:
If the core system was between $200-250 then the tard pak would make Soooooooo much more sense and that would really be a budget low-cost SKU for broke gamers. But at 300 it just ain't happenin its like something went terribly wrong at the board meeting.

I guess Microsoft are actually wanting this new Xbox to actually be a profitable venture unlike its predecessor.
 
crunker99 said:
I have had an iPod, and let me tell you, the pod is the best marketing worst peice of junk ever. Apples PR department has done a fantastic job in making the iPod a fashion acessory instead of a player. I have now the Zen Touch by creative which is louder, battery lasts 24 hours, cheaper, and holds more.

Kudos to apples marketing department, every ipod i have had has crased and lasted only a few hours on battery, but BOY DID I LOOK COOL!

If Microsoft can do the same thing with Xbox360 they will sell a crapload... if they suceed in making it a status acessory.

I have a 3G 40 GB iPod and I love it.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
I have a 3G 40 GB iPod and I love it.

Yeah but that's only because you've been brainwashed and don't know any better... EMBRACE FREEDOM!

;)
 
Juice said:
Interesting parallel, and I've thought about it a bit too, but I think it might be a little exaggerative in this light.

----

It's funny watching BlimBlim do an about face in his role of talking about the 360. Originally he was an eye-opening seer who would leak unto us poor souls secret unknown truths about the console. He seemed very level-handed in all this.

But now that the pricing shit has hit the fan, he really just seems to be doing constant damage control in response to many of the redundant complaints being ledged against Microsoft of the pricing plan. It really does read as though he's shifted his stance to an overly defensive one, and it isn't particularly persuasive or becoming. Makes me wonder if he's worried that if the 360 becomes irrelevant, no one will give a shit about the insider info he is sometims able to acquire.

I can sympathize, but still.

-----


:lol

Maybe that's because so many of the complaints, while justified to some extent, are absofvckinglutely over the top. I'm just curious to see the reaction when the PS3 specs are finalized and the price(s) are confirmed.
 
HokieJoe said:
:lol

Maybe that's because so many of the complaints, while justified to some extent, are absofvckinglutely over the top. I'm just curious to see the reaction when the PS3 specs are finalized and the price(s) are confirmed.
Yeah really. While many (myself included) are pissed that we wont see an HDD become standard in consoles this gen, some are just way out there with the assumptions and negativity. It'll be fun to look back on this stuff a year from now.
 
Juice said:
It's funny watching BlimBlim do an about face in his role of talking about the 360. Originally he was an eye-opening seer who would leak unto us poor souls secret unknown truths about the console. He seemed very level-handed in all this.

But now that the pricing shit has hit the fan, he really just seems to be doing constant damage control in response to many of the redundant complaints being ledged against Microsoft of the pricing plan. It really does read as though he's shifted his stance to an overly defensive one, and it isn't particularly persuasive or becoming. Makes me wonder if he's worried that if the 360 becomes irrelevant, no one will give a shit about the insider info he is sometims able to acquire.

I can sympathize, but still.
Please, check my post history and let me know when I did some damage control over the whole Core/360 mess. I stayed as far away from these topics as possible, and of course the fact that I was in Leipzig at the time did not help in my damage control you so want me to have done.
As for the insider info, I doubt you'll ever get much from me anymore. I've had some big and not so fun warnings from MS about some stuff I said in the past.
 
DarienA said:
Yeah but that's only because you've been brainwashed and don't know any better... EMBRACE FREEDOM!

;)

It is? Oh ok. I thought it was because it's simply the best MP3 player you can buy. In head to head reviews, it always comes out on top. I guess close to all of us have been brainwashed then. :lol

Fuck it, I'm buying the non-retard pack and I will use that as my MP3 player.
 
That's just dumb, the shuffle was 3 years old compared to competitor products. Xenos and XCPU will be less than 6 months old when Xbox360 launch worldwide this winter, alone on the market.

and sound inferior to competing music download services
so if HDD = kbps, 486DX2-66 PC > Xbox > Xbox 360 > PS3, right ?
your kbps comparison would be good if the core system had 256MB of RAM.

well, at least it's not a car analogy... but it's still the lowest form of argumentation.
 
I dunno what reviews u been reading but the iPod does not ALWAYS come out on top. There are some non-apple influenced sites out there. I mean the shuffle for god sakes is a 30 dollard flash card player with NO SCREEN. Gimmie a break.
 
crunker99 said:
I dunno what reviews u been reading but the iPod does not ALWAYS come out on top. There are some non-apple influenced sites out there. I mean the shuffle for god sakes is a 30 dollard flash card player with NO SCREEN. Gimmie a break.

I'm not talking about the shuffle.

I'm talking about the regular iPod.

In every head to head I've read, which isn't saying that it's every single one, the iPod comes out on top.

Go figure.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
I'm not talking about the shuffle.

I'm talking about the regular iPod.

In every head to head I've read, which isn't saying that it's every single one, the iPod comes out on top.

Go figure.

The sound quality of the ipod is less than awesome compared to other MP3 players out there...
 
Ipods are sweet... hey speaking of Ipods does the x360 have any firewire ports? I have an old 1st gen Ipod with firewire. Still kicking.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
In every head to head I've read, which isn't saying that it's every single one, the iPod comes out on top.

Go figure.

Im sayign this in a totally non-agressive way, i think u shoudl try the creative products or the iriver. The sound quality, battery life, and features, all pretty much beat out the ipod.
 
Unison said:
The sound quality of the ipod is less than awesome compared to other MP3 players out there...

That may be true, but your MP3 player is also only as good as the headphone you pair it with. The ear buds that come with the iPod suck.

crunker99 said:
Im sayign this in a totally non-agressive way, i think u shoudl try the creative products or the iriver. The sound quality, battery life, and features, all pretty much beat out the ipod.

Next time I am looking for a new MP3 player I will definitely give them a checking out.
 
Blimblim said:
As for the insider info, I doubt you'll ever get much from me anymore. I've had some big and not so fun warnings from MS about some stuff I said in the past.

Sorry to hear you caught some flack for being a good guy. When I was an "insider" it was tough to not divulge the very little information I actually knew. But dealing with any legal troubles or whatever, is definitely not worth it just to satisfy the insatiable desires of the illogical forum goers.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
That may be true, but your MP3 player is also only as good as the headphone you pair it with. The ear buds that come with the iPod suck.
I dunno about that man. The better headphones you pair it with, the more you can hear the crappy signal/noise ratio of the ipod. I'm not all that discriminative when it comes to sound quality but even I can hear the hissy background that's always there on ipod when I listen to it with my headphones. It's defeinitely not true that as a device it always comes out on top in tests. Certainly not on CNET test I was reading recently which placed it last on sound quality testing.
 
The sound quality of MP3 players will always be crappy because of the compression format of MP3 (and all the other compression formats they play for that matter). Much worse than cd - and cd is not great to beginn with.
 
Excelion said:
That's just dumb, the shuffle was 3 years old compared to competitor products. Xenos and XCPU will be less than 6 months old when Xbox360 launch worldwide this winter, alone on the market.


so if HDD = kbps, 486DX2-66 PC > Xbox > Xbox 360 > PS3, right ?
your kbps comparison would be good if the core system had 256MB of RAM.

well, at least it's not a car analogy... but it's still the lowest form of argumentation.
I think you're a bit confused regarding the analogy. It is not HDD = kbps.

The analogy is small storage space for shuffle owners = small storage space for core owners.

Allowing the smaller storage space on either device to dictate the content made available for it is a mistake. Apple does not do anything to their iTunes content to compensate for that fact that Shuffle owners might not be able to enjoy all of it or as much of it, on the otherhand MS is asking their developers to target the Core console with their games. Apple does not request that the music labels target their content at Shuffle owners.

And if anyone thinks the Shuffle/Core comparison is silly you simply haven't been listening to MS's statements in interviews. From just this month alone:

Game Informer: Will the Xbox 360 be sold in different models, one with a hard drive and one without? What about different sized hard drive?

Allard: It's something we're not ready to announce yet. We've been getting good feedback from people at E3 and a lot of retailers. Look at the succes the Ipod has had with different offerings. That is something we have looked at, sort of on the long term horizon. We want to go get everybody out there that likes to play, and make them an Xbox customer.
J Allard (Expert):
Q: will the core system come with a memory card? if not, how can u save games?
A: i think it is really important to emphasize especially for the folks in this chat room that we did not design the core system around you guys. similar to the shuffle, the boxter, the 4:3 tv, the 1mpix camera, we designed the core system as a way to get folks to come into the family at a cheaper prices and decide if an how they scale the system.
People would not be scoffing so much at the Core system if it had appeared at a similar timing to Shuffle and if it had an equally attractive price tag. $300 Core + $40 memory card is not going to bring in a different budget level of consumer into the Xbox family the way a $99 Shuffle does. At $340 for a functional Core system you are still talking about the hardcore gamer/technophile/early adopter category. MS jumped the gun with the core's release and they allowed the core system to become the target platform for game developers.

Microsoft could have said to developers that they can use 1GB of HDD storage as a scratch pad for building their games and then 2-3 years from now offer a Core system with 1GB of flash memory built into a trim new device. How much is 1GB of flash memory going to cost 2-3 years from now? You can already buy 1GB of flash memory for around $50.

http://www.newegg.com/product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820211225
Kingston 1GB Secure Digital = $53.99 or $43.99 after rebate.

The prices of 512MB ($20-$30), 256MB ($15-$20), 128MB ($10-$15) and 64MB ($5-$10) of flash memory have fallen dramatically over time so I think we can expect 1GB flash memory options to eventually become dirt cheap as well.
 
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