Radical_3d
Member
An apple chip is the epitome of this. That's why they are fantastic productivity machines (best in class and best bang for the buck) and poor gaming devices.
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Will there be an Apple "Steam Machine" ?
- Thread starter Geometric-Crusher
- Start date
No Apple wont be entering that market and Apple GPU's are mobile/productivity focused, they aren't good for games.
Someone can make a Arm system that could run SteamOS but only provided the drivers are open source and built into the Linux Kernel which is what Valve and SteamOS rely on (this means no closed source drivers).
State of Arm GPU's.
* Apple GPU - not supported in linux kernel, a custom linux distro exists for Apple Arm hardware with many drivers that are outside of kernel, will take time to bring those in.
* Arm Mali - Arm's own in house GPU's do have good Linux support but not the latest generation, it takes while for those to come up support wise.
* Qualcomm - Very good support in Linux, latest Snapdragon Elite X2 GPU is in the processing of being added.
* PowerVR - only in the past few years or so have started to properly support open source drivers under Linux.
* AMD - open source driver works fine with Arm.
* Intel - open source driver works fine with Arm.
* Nvidia - viable RTX open source drivers in development but unusable unlikely to be used by SteamOS till it matures.
So no there isn't going to be some kind of rush on Arm Steam Machines any time soon, the only one that is really viable right now ( in next 2 or so years) is Qualcomm because Valve will already have done some of the driver and firmware legal work to make it all work under linux via the Steam Frame.
Someone can make a Arm system that could run SteamOS but only provided the drivers are open source and built into the Linux Kernel which is what Valve and SteamOS rely on (this means no closed source drivers).
State of Arm GPU's.
* Apple GPU - not supported in linux kernel, a custom linux distro exists for Apple Arm hardware with many drivers that are outside of kernel, will take time to bring those in.
* Arm Mali - Arm's own in house GPU's do have good Linux support but not the latest generation, it takes while for those to come up support wise.
* Qualcomm - Very good support in Linux, latest Snapdragon Elite X2 GPU is in the processing of being added.
* PowerVR - only in the past few years or so have started to properly support open source drivers under Linux.
* AMD - open source driver works fine with Arm.
* Intel - open source driver works fine with Arm.
* Nvidia - viable RTX open source drivers in development but unusable unlikely to be used by SteamOS till it matures.
So no there isn't going to be some kind of rush on Arm Steam Machines any time soon, the only one that is really viable right now ( in next 2 or so years) is Qualcomm because Valve will already have done some of the driver and firmware legal work to make it all work under linux via the Steam Frame.
Esppiral
Member
Wait PowerVR is still alive?
Wildebeest
Member
The Mac Mini was already, on paper, a more impressive hardware launch than the Gabecube. The problem is that instead of Vulkan it use uses their own proprietary Metal API which means they can't use Proton and piggy back on the game compatibility work done by other people, and Valve.
FingerBang
Member
This.Wait til you find out the Mac Mini is cheaper and better spec'd than the Steam box.
I got one, it's a mighty machine for a tiny price (and size). A base M4/M5 can definitely play some nice games at 1080p, it's mostly an issue with support. All Apple should do is take the whole gaming compatibility seriously, the same way Steam did it.
They won't unless the direction changes. Their software is also getting shittier.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's a PC. They already have those, as do other companies, in all kinds of form factors for any kinds of uses, gaming, workstation, living room, home theater, all in one, they aren't Steam Machine clones, they are PCs, as the Steam Machine is, so as it came later that's the clone, but it's not, it's a PC
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Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
It's also possible, there are two lines of action I see happening.
Firstly, several Steam Machine clone devices are trying to gain space in living rooms, using Windows or Linux.
Secondly, companies are literally attaching an operating system to a physical box; these boxes use standard PC parts, so they will need their own operating system instead of Windows.
One example could be PlayStation OS; install it in place of Windows and bingo, you'll have a PlayStation without having to buy a PlayStation. It's an OS battle that may or may not happen, after all, nobody knows what the future holds.
Jinzo Prime
Member
The new M5 chip from Apple has the most powerful CPU core for any procceser ever. People underestimate how good an Apple console or PC hybrid would be. Slap Steam on an M3 - M5 powered box and you would have a very compelling device, imho.
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twilo99
Member
Valve used the Windows platform for decades as a foundation to build it's own platform to now compete against it…
diffusionx
Gold Member
Apple has absolutely no interest in helping Valve sell games on Steam. So disabuse yourself of that notion. They will not help with that.
They want people buying apps on their app store, whether it is Mac or iOS. So anything they do will be about getting more people on those services, or getting the people already on them to spend more money.
I could see them releasing an Apple TV with a better CPU (the current one is really old), and pushing "real" games on that platform, instead of these RE8 iPhone vanity ports, saying that Apple TV is the best way to play them. It also helps that you can buy RE8 on Apple TV and play it on your iPad, or iPhone, or maybe even Mac. They could also make sure that games ported to MacOS like BG3 also run on Apple TV. I think that they could do this.
They want people buying apps on their app store, whether it is Mac or iOS. So anything they do will be about getting more people on those services, or getting the people already on them to spend more money.
I could see them releasing an Apple TV with a better CPU (the current one is really old), and pushing "real" games on that platform, instead of these RE8 iPhone vanity ports, saying that Apple TV is the best way to play them. It also helps that you can buy RE8 on Apple TV and play it on your iPad, or iPhone, or maybe even Mac. They could also make sure that games ported to MacOS like BG3 also run on Apple TV. I think that they could do this.
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ForAcademicPurposes
Member
They don't have the imagination.
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Sethbacca
Member
I won't be surprised if some of the minipc makers get in on the action. Minisforum, Beelink, shit like that. Once Strix Halo gets replaced with it's next gen upgrade and becomes cheaper it would be a helluva little steam box at the right price just throw SteamOS on it.
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Heimdall_Xtreme
Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
Let's hope they never do it.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
It's a great device for certain uses, like running local LLMs, where these things (if maxed out) are absolute kings due to their integrated memory. But just not so great for gaming.Wait til you find out the Mac Mini is cheaper and better spec'd than the Steam box.
kiphalfton
Member
If you don't think a good amount of their success isn't attributed to their products being a status symbol, I don't know what to tell you.
Sure, they offer good products, but it's all relative; their products look that much better, because the competition sucks.
I mean who is competing with Apple on the tablet, notebook, and phone front. There's barely if any real competition.
It's the same thing as Nvidia, PlayStation, Nintendo, (and previously Intel), where they've rested on their laurels, and have been putting in minimal effort generation to generation.
Ozrimandias
Member
Shhhhhh....Don't give them ideas
MrCunningham
Member
They already have done this. It's called D3DMetal, which is part of the Apple Game Porting Toolkit: https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/
Proton is a fork of the DXVK compatibility layer, and takes advantage of the Steam Runtime in the Linux clients of Steam and SteamOS. Apple has their own low level graphics API called Metal. There are also Vulkan wrappers for MacOS and iOS called MoltenVK and some other one.
Prior to that, Apple already had their own versions of WINE with Crossover, Whisky and in the past they had Cider. So Apple OS's already has Windows to Apple compatibility covered.
It's funny because back in 2017-2018, the first signs of proton actually showed up in the Mac version of Steam, which lead people to thing that Mac Steam would have its own Windows compatibility layer. But that went quiet, and Valve introduced Proton for the Steam Linux client instead.
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MrCunningham
Member
Apple already has their own game controller API that is supported across both MacOS and iOS devices. Most modern 'third party' game pads also have Apple gamepad support built into them.
Game controls | Apple Developer Documentation
Precise, intuitive game controls enhance gameplay and can increase a player’s immersion in the game.
PlayStaytion
Member
Non of the above, Sony will do their own s deal with Apple just like Microsoft and Valve cause this isn't the 80s/90s anymore, there are no rules in this game.
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Unknown Soldier
Member
Mac OS also natively supports Dualshock and Dualsense controllersApple already has their own game controller API that is supported across both MacOS and iOS devices. Most modern 'third party' game pads also have Apple gamepad support built into them.
Game controls | Apple Developer Documentation
Precise, intuitive game controls enhance gameplay and can increase a player’s immersion in the game.developer.apple.com
Unironically the best way to do PS5 Remote Play which isn't a Portal is a Mac because that is the only PS5 Remote Play client besides Portal which properly supports the haptic feedback on the Dualsense
Can you not already do this? Just install Steam and enable Big Picture mode which will allow you to run macOS games.
They are used in Google's Tensor G5 processor, which is featured in their Pixel 10 line of devices.
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MrCunningham
Member
You can. But the key difference between the Linux and SteamOS versions of Steam is its' 'Steam Play' feature that allows you to run Windows games via one click installs through a Windows compatibility layer called Proton. Screenshot from my own Linux Mint desktop:
This feature is not available in the Windows or MacOS versions of Steam. This is also the secret sauce behind the Steam Deck and upcoming GabeCube (Steam Machine 2026). They both use SteamOS, which is a custom Linux Distro made by Valve.
The closest one could get to this on MacOS would be to run the Windows Steam through Crossover. But this solution is not great overall.
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
New M chipset also got a pretty good GPU boost even in the vanilla M5 chip in base Macbook Pro and upcoming MacBooks and Mac Mini.
M5 Mac Mini will be quite an interesting device with price performance ratio. Well, price is going to probably get jacked up due to RAM/SSD cost rising.
Edit: Crossover is pretty competent overall and works decently well on my older Mbook Pro M3.
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deriks
4-Time GIF/Meme God
They can do a big team to research and develop something inside for sure. If they re-invent the wheel, like they did sometimes, we will see it. If not, the only chance is if more people organically goes to Mac - Linux is way ahead on this race, and still has like a fart in comparison with Windows, so it is really hard
Remember that the iPhone was years in the making, so was the iPad. But also they spend years trying on a car and just quit - of course betting on a Steam Mac is cheaper, but it's not like betting on that horse will be a hit
Remember that the iPhone was years in the making, so was the iPad. But also they spend years trying on a car and just quit - of course betting on a Steam Mac is cheaper, but it's not like betting on that horse will be a hit
Apple doesn't want really want Steam taking over on their hardware. They want you buying games on their store so they get a cut. That will always be the major limiting factor. You need to get dev support, but is Apple hardware in a position to just get everything versus what they get now?
The next two years will be very interesting with major changes across the market. The Steam Frame will be out, so FEX-emu will get to stretch its legs and show up how well x86/64x games run on ARM. This can immediately turn a whole bunch of Android phones, tablets, and Chromebooks into machines that can run games out of a Steam library. Add in the start of a new console generation rather will very likely be very different from past ones in terms of back and forward compatibility. It will be the most crucial time to establish a following as people are most likely to stay where their games are.
Wilhelm_85
Gold Member
Where's the "no" option? No.
Walliwallipaloo
Member
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Really, man?
Long answer: Really, man?
hououinkyouma00
Member
I don't think so personally.
Apple cares more about games then they probably ever have at least in a very long time (thinking back when Steve Jobs first introduced us to a little game called Halo and Mac had a pretty dedicated gaming scene from what I could tell) but dedicated hardware is a step farther then I ever see happening.
I think Apple will simply continue to develop their tools and have their current devices be better at gaming while pushing it more in announcements and marketing.
I do think they could probably do quite well with an Apple TV equipped with something like the M3 and a free Arcade subscription. Arcade isn't for me but I know people find value in it.
A quick look at Arcade shows it has some big indie titles like Vampire Survivors, Disney Dreamlight Valley, Balatro, Powerwash Simulator, Cult of the Lamb, Stardew Valley, Slay the Spire, Dead Cells, and Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm (not indie but I know people like it).
Apple cares more about games then they probably ever have at least in a very long time (thinking back when Steve Jobs first introduced us to a little game called Halo and Mac had a pretty dedicated gaming scene from what I could tell) but dedicated hardware is a step farther then I ever see happening.
I think Apple will simply continue to develop their tools and have their current devices be better at gaming while pushing it more in announcements and marketing.
I do think they could probably do quite well with an Apple TV equipped with something like the M3 and a free Arcade subscription. Arcade isn't for me but I know people find value in it.
A quick look at Arcade shows it has some big indie titles like Vampire Survivors, Disney Dreamlight Valley, Balatro, Powerwash Simulator, Cult of the Lamb, Stardew Valley, Slay the Spire, Dead Cells, and Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm (not indie but I know people like it).
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MrCunningham
Member
The last big push for gaming on an Apple device was really with the launch of the App Store in 2008 and devices like the iPod Touch, which was heavily suggested as a gaming device in the marketing. Just about all of the iPod Touch commercials were showing off the device as a gaming handheld.
Honestly the initially launch of the App store really caused the indie gaming boom, IMO, as I remember Apple calling out for developers to make games for their App store and they netted in a lot of indie devs who had a hard time getting their games published anywhere else. This also caused Valve and other first party publishers to open up their distribution platforms to more indie devs... and also lead to the asset flip debacle. The Unity Engine really first gained traction on iOS.
The Google Play store didn't really become a thing until 2012, and even the early Google Play store was really bad. the early Android phones were terrible at running games in comparison to the Apple iOS products. But that did change over many years. I would say that even now, iOS is Apple's most viable gaming platform. MacOS never really took off in that direction. MacOS has always been used for its creature software and general purpose daily use.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The MacOS Game Porting Toolkit is quietly really crazy
Game Porting Toolkit - Games - Apple Developer
The Game Porting Toolkit makes it easier than ever to bring games to the unified gaming platform across Mac, iPad, and iPhone.
Apple is completely silent about its existence and even this page undersells the fact that it quietly contains a full emulation (Rosetta 2) and API translation (DX12/Vulkan -> Metal) environment which you can actually use to hack many Windows games yourself to play on Mac OS right now. It's basically a mini-Proton combined with an x86 emulator and it's been there all this time and it beats the shit out of whatever Qualcomm has been doing with Snapdragon X Elite running Windows on ARM
Unknown Soldier
Member
Unfortunately Mac has been completely left out on this, Apple added the ability to run iOS apps natively in Mac OS starting with Big Sur (Mac OS 11) but it's developer opt-in and like 99.99% of apps won't install or run because the devs won't opt in. Apple should have let users install any iOS app they want from the start rather than rely on a whitelist
kevboard
Member
Android is the largest gaming ecosystem not iOS
Sand Dan Glokta
Member
You do pose some compelling ideas, but I think you're jumping the gun, and underestimating steam's brand name power.
From what I'e seen the GabeCube is shaping up to be a proprietary product, and both the marketing and pricing will reflect that as well; only for the most devout/hardcore gamers. The vast majority of companies cannot sustain that business model because they are not Steam.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Apple makes way more money from App Store than Google does from Google Play. It's an axiom among phone app developers that the iOS version makes about 10x the revenue for their app than the Android version does
nial
Member
iOS is larger in terms of app spending.
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
There is a lot more piracy on Android side as it has been always easy to sideload apps or use 3rd party stores.
With Apple starting to open up the ecosystem I wonder if we will see similar situation happening.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I honestly don't think piracy means a lot on phone apps, where the app download is typically free and purchases are made in-app to unlock premium features or subscribe to services
The idea of paying up front for something before being allowed to use it is simply not commonly done in the mobile world
kevboard
Member
nope.
Android has 72% of the mobile market in terms of revenue.
"Android maintains approximately 72% of global mobile gaming revenue"
the average per user is higher on iOS, but iOS is a FAR smaller install base...
nial
Member
I stand corrected, then. Though it's still likely bigger than the rest of the gaming ecosystems out there.