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[Trokil]

I have never seen such bad reading comprehension skills.

Okay, I explain it slowly.

When a Milo supporter murders someone, you can't help that someone. That already happened.

Ok, I did not know that he and his supporter are walking arround murdering people. And the police does nothing, that is strange I have to admit that.

Secondly, do you understand what harrassment does to people?

According to the Cyberbullying Research Center, "there have been several high‐profile cases involving teenagers taking their own lives in part because of being harassed and mistreated over the Internet, a phenomenon we have termed cyberbullicide – suicide indirectly or directly influenced by experiences with online aggression."

Cyberbullying is an intense form of psychological abuse, whose victims are more than twice as likely to suffer from mental disorders compared to traditional bullying.[113]

The reluctance youth have in telling an authority figure about instances of cyberbullying has led to fatal outcomes. At least three children between the ages of 12 and 13 have committed suicide due to depression brought on by cyberbullying, according to reports by USA Today and the Baltimore Examiner.

Quoting wiki here. In short, harrassment silences people.

So cyberbullying is the worst thing that could happen to somebody I understand. Not living in a community shaped by politics from people like Michele Bachmann. Where most people will tell you that your sexuality is somehow wrong. Not some troll you never meet but your neighbor or people in school. Where it is ok for most people if you kill yourself or just vanish. An environment where even your family is abandoning you is nothing compared to the cyber bullying people like Milo do. Where you are surrounded by people who are on your side not suppressed by your own community, where you don't have the bullying very day in real life. Because online cyberbullying is the worst thing ever and that is why people like Milo are way worse than the good people like Michele Bachmann.

Yes trokil, if you would want to, you could try to help his victims. If they would be open to receiving help. I know thats a big if.

Yes trokil, if media would want to, they could try to help his victims. If they would be open to receiving help. I know thats a big if.

As it is right now, these are all ifs. As in not happening.

So cyberbullying is a way to keep people from receiving help, they can never ever have people defending them, like Zoe Quinn did or get to the FBI like Anita Sarkeesian was able to. Because cyberbullying is almighty unlike the bullying in real life in the good neighborhoods were nobody will help you, where the police is ok, that it was just another suicide.

This laughable over importance of cyberbullying is incredible. What if you turn of your computer, what is happening after that.? Unlike people like Michele Bachmann people like Milo are pretty much powerless in reality. They can not shape a community to hate you. Even suggesting that Milo could make the students in Berkley hate someone without the chance of getting help is mind blowing.

What is happening is that Milo gets the attention, TV show appearances and bookdeals.

Milo, the Nazi, is not getting silenced.

Milos victims are getting silenced.

These are the intended effects of his harrassment.

And you are not fighting against it.

White supremacists deserve the benefit of doubt that they might not be Neo-Nazis. Reasons.

Protests give him popularity, not talking about him leaves him unopposed, not debating him makes him right, ignoring him is also wrong. You are just looking for a way to deal with him without getting involved in any way and that is somehow the magical solution for him.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

What is with your continued insistence on bringing up Michelle Bachmann?

No one is arguing with you that other shitty people aren't doing bad things, but that doesn't make what Milo does better or more permissible.

 

[Trokil]

When someone wears German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement, and dedicates his life to spreading anti-Semitic, homophobic, and racist views, how can you be so up in arms over them being labelled a neo-Nazi?

Wagner is the favorite composer of people like Stephen Fry. Wagner is complicated and if you cook down everything for the easy black & white world view of course you will always have easy answers. You are just easy prey for people like Milo, because they can play only a few notes and you will react like he likes it.

 

[Trokil]

What is with your continued insistence on bringing up Michelle Bachmann?

No one is arguing with you that other shitty people aren't doing bad things, but that doesn't make what Milo does better or more permissible.

That people don't understand the difference between the two. Milo is an online troll with troll friends and a very limited influence. Fighting him is actually not that hard. People like Michele Bachmann shape the real world with a smile and are jokes for people like Maher, while they create the real living hells for minorities or gays or trans people. But somehow they are not even Nazis, while their system is actually way closer to what the Nazis did compared to something what Milo does. They turn around everybody and when even your own family tells you, that you better should be dead than gay. That is something completely different than cyberbullying.

But people ignore that real evil is actually subtle it will smile to you, not some loudmouth like Milo or even Trump.

 

[Ketkat]

That people don't understand the difference between the two. Milo is an online troll with troll friends and a very limited influence. Fighting him is actually not that hard. People like Michele Bachmann shape the real world with a smile and are jokes for people like Maher, while they create the real living hells for minorities or gays or trans people. But somehow they are not even Nazis, while their system is actually way closer to what the Nazis did compared to something what Milo does. They turn around everybody and when even your own family tells you, that you better should be dead than gay. That is something completely different than cyberbullying.

But people ignore that real evil is actually subtle it will smile to you, not some loudmouth like Milo or even Trump.

No one is ignoring Bachmann. You can fight against more than 1 person at once. Milo and Trump are in fact bad for gay and trans people. It doesn't mean they're the worst ones out there for it, but they're still bad for it.

Its also odd you would say Bachmann has more influence than Milo so we should be worried about her, but does Trump not have more influence than her? And outside of GAF, Milo does have a lot of influence.

 

[Jackpot]

Wagner is the favorite composer of people like Stephen Fry. Wagner is complicated and if you cook down everything for the easy black & white world view of course you will always have easy answers. You are just easy prey for people like Milo, because they can play only a few notes and you will react like he likes it.

And Fry was very vocal on how big Wagner was big with the Nazis.

Again, you ignore all the other evidence. Milo going by the name Wagner does not exist in a vacuum.

Liking Wagner by itself is nothing. Liking Wagner + German war memorabilia + hating Jews + hating gay people + hating black people = Nazi.

Why have you made this your hill to die on?

 

[Oersted]

Ok, I did not know that he is walking arround murdering people.



So cyberbullying is the worst thing that could happen to somebody I understand. Not living in a community shaped by politics from people like Michele Bachmann. Where most people will tell you that your sexuality is somehow wrong. Not some troll you never meet but your neighbor or people in school. Where it is ok for most people if you kill yourself or just vanish. An environment where even your family is abandoning you is nothing compared to the cyber bullying people like Milo do. Where you are surrounded by people who are on your side not suppressed by your own community, where you don't have the bullying very day in real life. Because online cyberbullying is the worst thing ever and that is why people like Milo are way worse than the good people like Michele Bachmann.




So cyberbullying is a way to keep people from receiving help, they can never ever have people defending them, like Zoe Quinn did or get to the FBI like Anita Sarkeesian was able to. Because cyberbullying is almighty unlike the bullying in real life in the good neighborhoods were nobody will help you, where the police is ok, that it was just another suicide.

Followers of his ideology murder people. Your reading comprehension skills are shockingly bad.


You don't understand. Cyberbullying, something Milo the Nazi and his followers engage in, has severe consequences. It silences people and drives them into suicide.
Milo the Nazi does also engage in offline abuse. He used his plattform at a campus to make a transgender person target of harrassment.
You manage to ignore and handwave both abuses.

Okay slowly, so that you might finally understand. Online and offline abuse damages people. Milo the Nazi engages in both.
Using the few survivors of abuse, who where somewhat able to handle it is incredible low, even for you.
To quote one of the victims you are willing to use but not willing to listen:

Can people just let go of the notion that giving hate a platform "exposes" it? You can't shame someone who is proud to be shit.

I've been saying this for years now and it's frustrating to see shitbags ascend in the attention economy bc people keep making this mistake. If you want to "expose" anything, why not talk to the people that have been targeted and hurt by the Monster of the Week. Humanize them. Show the actual damage and pain they cause instead of thinking that debating someone who isn't here to be logically correct anyway helps. You can't expose someone who is openly a scumbag to begin with by giving them MORE of a platform - you're just giving them free ad space.

Think of how much good media centering the people that are directly fucked up by the Alt-Reich or Twitler's policies could do for empathy.

Show people the actual impact and consequences instead of focusing on the theoretical. Show how bad shit actually is. Put faces on it.

You want to fight against normalization? That's how. Move it out of the realms of the theoretical, stop signal boosting lies and hatred. And *support those currently suffering and in danger* more than you support the careers of those participating in endangering them. You'll find resilience and wisdom and hope in the people who've already been fighting this shit because they've had no other choice, too.

You'll be able to help heal damage already done by letting people whose voices get squashed use your platform to tell their truths. You expose the bullshit, raise squashed voices, and get humanized first hand info. That's so much better than "more free press to shitheads." Plus no one has to look at the myriad shitty haircuts of these garbage people so it's an aesthetic win too...

Besides think of how pissy these grandstanding shits would be if the people who got to speak about them were people they wanted gone. If you can't do this shit because it's more empathetic and tactically sound, do it to annoy the shit out of a bigoted pissbaby.

 

[Trokil]

No one is ignoring Bachmann. You can fight against more than 1 person at once. Milo and Trump are in fact bad for gay and trans people. It doesn't mean they're the worst ones out there for it, but they're still bad for it.

Its also odd you would say Bachmann has more influence than Milo so we should be worried about her, but does Trump not have more influence than her? And outside of GAF, Milo does have a lot of influence.

The only good thing is, that Trump is an idiot and not even using the real tactics Nazis could use. Trump is in a lot of ways the best thing that could have happened to the US, because he has no idea how to use his power and his people are not the masterminds you can expect from a real Nazi government.

I mean look at Betsy DeVos. In a Nazi government she would have passed with flying colors because they would have nominated somebody competent. She would not have said some rubbish, but she would have talked about family values, Christian values, the return to hard work and that hard work must be rewarded. By that she would have always implied, if African Americans or Latinos get worse education, that they just are lazy. Something which would very much resonate with Nazi voters. But instead he nominated her and even Republican voters called their senators.

So in a lot of ways for example state politicians are worse than Trump. The actually have more influence to create the environments to suppress women, gays, trans or minorities, because they do it quietly and with a smile.

 

[Ketkat]

So in a lot of ways for example state politicians are worse than Trump. The actually have more influence to create the environments to suppress women, gays, trans or minorities, because they do it quietly and with a smile.

They do not do it quietly anymore. That used to be the case, but people are in fact fighting back against the states that try and pull that crap.

Look at the NFL threatening to pull out of Texas. Same thing happened with Georgia. North Carolina lost a business as well for their policies.

 

[Cyframe]

That people don't understand the difference between the two. Milo is an online troll with troll friends and a very limited influence. Fighting him is actually not that hard. People like Michele Bachmann shape the real world with a smile and are jokes for people like Maher, while they create the real living hells for minorities or gays or trans people. But somehow they are not even Nazis, while their system is actually way closer to what the Nazis did compared to something what Milo does. They turn around everybody and when even your own family tells you, that you better should be dead than gay. That is something completely different than cyberbullying.

But people ignore that real evil is actually subtle it will smile to you, not some loudmouth like Milo or even Trump.

Everyone understands the difference of the two, but in a thread about Milo, guess who is going to be talked about?

Everything contributes in difference ways. Michele Bachmann, with congressional influence and Milo with harassment campaigns.

You can say both issues are wrong. People can focus on two different subjects at a time. Humans do it daily.

Would you say to the trans student who was harassed off campus by Milo, well Michele Bachmann has congressional influence? If you would, it seems like you're missing the point, not others.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

What is with your continued insistence on bringing up Michelle Bachmann?

No one is arguing with you that other shitty people aren't doing bad things, but that doesn't make what Milo does better or more permissible.

What Trokill is saying (if I understand correctly) is that as far as the argument goes that someone should be denied access to the same channels, you'd have to assume that you'd fight more vigorously for the people who do the most damage.
So if we step outside and retract you can see that Milos harmful effects is minuscule compared to your average famous conservative media personality or even average celebrity. It doesn't make sense that you'd micro target someone like Milo.

This is essentially also a repeat of how the Twitter ban helped being excellent PR for Milo. His style of having a persecution complex is based around that the liberals are hypocrits and him getting banned, but not the likes of ISIS was proof that the liberals give more of a shit about trigger warnings and safe spaces than about a faux-caliphat murdering and raping thousands through perversion of Islam.

Both the right and the left flanks in the US have a very compartmentalized way of looking at things. Of course you can deny people who do bad stuff on a smaller level, but the overarching point being made is that that many many many dangerous people are on TV every day, spreading hateful lies and deceit that has much broader consequences, and nobody cares about those people having a platform. Through that frame, it is pretty clear that there is a fetishization of Milo and I think that is problematic because it's his only currency. The only thing he has is that the left is talking about him and building up his notority by talking about him.




I myself am really conflicted about how to deal with someone Milo. On one hand I believe the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them, but on the other hand, the rhetoric of Milo (sort of like Trump) is that he is being conspired against and this creates a lot of sympathy from people on the sidelines who are annoyed by liberal sermons and liberal smugness. So every time the media doesn't invite these guys, you get a counter reaction of many people going "wow, the media is really biased against him. THE MEDIA IS CORRUPT" and then they really get invested.


It's difficult to prove however. You could have a situation where Milo comes on and he just runs out of steam and many many many more people become opponents against him as opposed to joining him. We cannot really have receipts either way, so saying that someone is factually harmful without proof is a stretch.
It's true that a lot of people believe stupid shit and a lot of people are impressionable, but that doesn't prove that Milo is. Milo might not be a catalyst or a "cut of the head of the snake" type situation.

I'm not against the idea that Milo shouldn't have a platform, but on the other hand, removing Milos Twitter is the best thing that ever happened to him. It grew his notoriety and proved the world narrative he wanted. A lot more people covered him like it was an event. "watch the guy who managed to get banned from Twitter amidst a time when the likes of Trump and ISIS aren't".


We should evaluate all options. First of all; How do we measure quantifiable how dangerous someone is, and where do we set the limit of how to control how bad ideas on can have in society? I think it's an utopian ideal to say that you can limit the flow of terrible ideas.
And historically it's not like conspiracy and neo-nazis have not always had public platforms. Radio shows, fund raising, demonstrations, people who run for offices, websites, games, documentaries- They've been around for a very long time but have never been a sizeable threat.

I don't think focusing on trying to eliminate those ideas from the cultural gene pool is possible. racist thoughts and racist buyers will exist and it will encrounge harder and faster the more you press it. It might be a problem of magnifying and enlarging a problem you didn't know was there. By spreading awareness about Milo on reddit and tumblr and gaf you might have indirectly contributed to his supporters base (or retracted from it). We don't really know.

I don't see Milo as special. I just see him as an empty vessal that represents a popular idea which is: fuck liberals. I think focusing on the idea in peoples head rather than a replaceable pointless actor like Milo who has no skill or pull or weight beyond being there. He's replaceable by a thousand others. It becomes an insult to give him that much attention. He is not worth that much.


We all have different ideas about how a solution will play out in our heads. I think there is merit to this idea that if you just let Milo run on all the networks people won't be pulled, but actually lose interest. It's not like he has something to say that really jives with a lot of people beyond some who are really lost. The media focuses on him because liberals are upset and cannot stop talking about him. So in a way, liberals are inflating him, and the media responds to that.

 

[Trokil]

What Trokill is saying (if I understand correctly)

Yes, you did. Great post.

 

[Oersted]

It's difficult to prove however. You could have a situation where Milo comes on and he just runs out of steam and many many many more people become opponents against him as opposed to joining him. We cannot really have receipts either way, so saying that someone is factually harmful without proof is a stretch.

A Milo supporter shot a student

Last time before Milo made a transgender student target of harassment



Alexandre Bissonnette was a Internet troll

He murdered 6 and injured 19 muslims 3 weeks ago

Edit:

If you and trokil would only fight as much as for Milos victims as for justifying him getting a plattform

If only

 

[Trokil]

Last time before Milo made a transgender student target of harassment



Alexandre Bissonnette was a Internet troll

He murdered 6 and injured 19 muslims 3 weeks ago

Isn't this connection a huge stretch, that because one person became violent another will as well. Isn't that a generalization something usually the right makes when it comes to other people?

 

[Cyframe]

What Trokill is saying (if I understand correctly) is that as far as the argument goes that someone should be denied access to the same channels, you'd have to assume that you'd fight more vigorously for the people who do the most damage.
So if we step outside and retract you can see that Milos harmful effects is minuscule compared to your average famous conservative media personality or even average celebrity. It doesn't make sense that you'd micro target someone like Milo.

This is essentially also a repeat of how the Twitter ban helped being excellent PR for Milo. His style of having a persecution complex is based around that the liberals are hypocrits and him getting banned, but not the likes of ISIS was proof that the liberals give more of a shit about trigger warnings and safe spaces than about a faux-caliphat murdering and raping thousands through perversion of Islam.

Both the right and the left flanks in the US have a very compartmentalized way of looking at things. Of course you can deny people who do bad stuff on a smaller level, but the overarching point being made is that that many many many dangerous people are on TV every day, spreading hateful lies and deceit that has much broader consequences, and nobody cares about those people having a platform. Through that frame, it is pretty clear that there is a fetishization of Milo and I think that is problematic because it's his only currency. The only thing he has is that the left is talking about him and building up his notority by talking about him.




I myself am really conflicted about how to deal with someone Milo. On one hand I believe the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them, but on the other hand, the rhetoric of Milo (sort of like Trump) is that he is being conspired against and this creates a lot of sympathy from people on the sidelines who are annoyed by liberal sermons and liberal smugness. So every time the media doesn't invite these guys, you get a counter reaction of many people going "wow, the media is really biased against him. THE MEDIA IS CORRUPT" and then they really get invested.


It's difficult to prove however. You could have a situation where Milo comes on and he just runs out of steam and many many many more people become opponents against him as opposed to joining him. We cannot really have receipts either way, so saying that someone is factually harmful without proof is a stretch.
It's true that a lot of people believe stupid shit and a lot of people are impressionable, but that doesn't prove that Milo is. Milo might not be a catalyst or a "cut of the head of the snake" type situation.

I'm not against the idea that Milo shouldn't have a platform, but on the other hand, removing Milos Twitter is the best thing that ever happened to him. It grew his notoriety and proved the world narrative he wanted. A lot more people covered him like it was an event. "watch the guy who managed to get banned from Twitter amidst a time when the likes of Trump and ISIS aren't".


We should evaluate all options. First of all; How do we measure quantifiable how dangerous someone is, and where do we set the limit of how to control how bad ideas on can have in society? I think it's an utopian ideal to say that you can limit the flow of terrible ideas.
And historically it's not like conspiracy and neo-nazis have not always had public platforms. Radio shows, fund raising, demonstrations, people who run for offices, websites, games, documentaries- They've been around for a very long time but have never been a sizeable threat.

I don't think focusing on trying to eliminate those ideas from the cultural gene pool is possible. racist thoughts and racist buyers will exist and it will encrounge harder and faster the more you press it. It might be a problem of magnifying and enlarging a problem you didn't know was there. By spreading awareness about Milo on reddit and tumblr and gaf you might have indirectly contributed to his supporters base (or retracted from it). We don't really know.

I don't see Milo as special. I just see him as an empty vessal that represents a popular idea which is: fuck liberals. I think focusing on the idea in peoples head rather than a replaceable pointless actor like Milo who has no skill or pull or weight beyond being there. He's replaceable by a thousand others. It becomes an insult to give him that much attention. He is not worth that much.


We all have different ideas about how a solution will play out in our heads. I think there is merit to this idea that if you just let Milo run on all the networks people won't be pulled, but actually lose interest. It's not like he has something to say that really jives with a lot of people beyond some who are really lost. The media focuses on him because liberals are upset and cannot stop talking about him. So in a way, liberals are inflating him, and the media responds to that.

He isn't trolling though, he's breaking laws. And for me, even if it isn't the intention of the person you quoted or yourself, it reminds me of the racist harassment I dealt with in school and it still effects me today but, should that not matter because Michelle Bachman is out there driving anti-gay and anti-black legislation?

I think a lot of people see examples of harassment they dealt with or currently deal with in Milo, so, I don't feel like positioning conservative senators as the end all be all evil does anything because we're already focused on them. Look at how many calls people made regarding Betsy Devos. Look at the reaction to the Muslim Ban. People are doing multiple things.

Fundamentally, ignoring trolls or bullies doesn't work, ever, period. And suggesting that people who are talking about him are somewhat comparable in responsibility as his supporters is misguided. Anita Sarkeesian can't even have comments open on her videos because of the GG harassment he levied against her and Zoe Quinn. That's a problem. And I can focus on two different things. So, even with your elaboration, I don't really respect that type of positioning.

 

[Oersted]

Isn't this connection a huge stretch, that because one person became violent another will as well.

Given that a Milo supporter shot a student and Milo uses his plattform to preach violence, abuse and far right wing rhetoric....

No.

 

[Cyframe]

I don't understand how you can supposedly be focused on racism and anti-gay hate and not realize that interpersonal actions matter. People who watch videos of Milo, interact with other people, and they inflict harm on them.

It reminds of South Park, when they kept using the word faggot. It became very popular in school and I was targeted with that word, in addition to anti-black racism.

The FBI just released a report that was buried for 10 years about white nationalists infiltrating the police force.

We had Dylan Roof and a person who was just arrested because he was inspired by his actions. Where do you think that radicalization happens? A site like stormfront contributes as well. If the only assessment is people like Michelle Bachmann being the most important target (that people are already focused on)...I'm perplexed.

 

[Trokil]

Given that a Milo supporter murdered a student and Milo uses his plattform to preach violence, abuse and far right wing rhetoric....

No.

Can you give a link to that story please, because you will find pretty much nothing about that online. Only about the story in Seattle and there is no info about a murder there.

 

[Dangansona]

Milo has not been seriously challenged by anyone with credibility in a debate, you want this sort of thing to happen, he lives in a bubble and goes on "safe" areas, he wont even debate right leaning sources who disagree with him because his rhetoric does not hold up to stringent analysis, its too theatrical.

I would love to see him debate someone of note, someone who can outright pull him on his stuff.

Exactly how I feel. I feel like I have no ammo on this guy because all you can do is cite his own actions which his supporters already know and support. Maybe if someone actually called out his BS for once...

 

[cartographer]

If anybody wants to see what debating without good faith looks like, see this thread.

They taught him well.

 

[Jackpot]

Can you give a link to that story please, because you will find pretty much nothing about that online. Only about the story in Seattle and there is no info about a murder there.

Still waiting on your explanation for this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=230487220&postcount=969

 

[Snowybreak]

I think it's rather funny how people are talking about silencing Milo.

Because there is a large difference between denying someone a platform and silencing.

You see, one requires no effort except the use of the word "No."

The other requires a bullet.

 

[Trokil]

Still waiting on your explanation for this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=230487220&postcount=969

Wagner was used by the Nazis, but was no Nazi. He is not like Leni Riefenstahl, but was used by the Nazis. So using his name is like calling yourself Nietzsche. The problem is, you make a connection while Milo is pretty sure not unhappy that you made this connection, only based on parts. So he can easily outsmart you if you call him a Nazi and even in the first sentence you may have lost any chance to actually attack his crap.

But if you attack him on his crap, not on a general basis like being a Nazi he can not outsmart you that easily. So if you only attack him on that what he said, not what he implied you are not playing his game.

So will you give me a link?

 

[Kyzer]

the sooner people realize that milo is a troll and that he literally aims to be intolerable to people who are advocating for tolerance as some sort of fox news magic trick, the sooner people will learn to ignore him and stop giving him air time

 

[Jackpot]

Wagner was used by the Nazis, but was no Nazi. He is not like Leni Riefenstahl, but was used by the Nazis. So using his name is like calling yourself Nietzsche. The problem is, you make a connection while Milo is pretty sure not unhappy that you made this connection, only based on parts. So he can easily outsmart you if you call him a Nazi and even in the first sentence you may have lost any chance to actually attack his crap.

But if you attack him on his crap, not on a general basis like being a Nazi he can not outsmart you that easily. So if you only attack him on that what he said, not what he implied you are not playing his game.

So will you give me a link?

So you're still denying Milo's a neo-Nazi?

Once again you completely ignore the content of my post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner..._appropriation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner...s#Antisemitism

That is what Wagner is known for other than his music.

When someone wears German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement, and dedicates his life to spreading anti-Semitic, homophobic, and racist views, how can you be so up in arms over them being labelled a neo-Nazi?

 

[Kusagari]

Why doesn't he choose to be straight then? What a gross fucking person.

He believes he subconsciously chooses to be gay to avoid bossy women.

 

[hodgy100]

He believes he subconsciously chooses to be gay to avoid bossy women.

well yeah hes a GG posterboy so of course there's some underlying misogyny there

 

[Oxn]

He gets airtime because people keep wanting to suppress him.

Its so simple.

 

[Trokil]

So you're still denying Milo's a neo-Nazi?

Once again you completely ignore the content of my post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner..._appropriation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner...s#Antisemitism

That is what Wagner is known for other than his music.

When someone wears German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement, and dedicates his life to spreading anti-Semitic, homophobic, and racist views, how can you be so up in arms over them being labelled a neo-Nazi?

And you still completely ignore my point. Wagner was not a Nazi he is implied with the culture but you still can listen to Wagner without having to love the Nazis. Same thing with the iron cross. And that is so easy to get out of, that if you are only focusing on the Nazi and why he is a Nazi you are giving him the upper hand. Because if you just call him a Nazi he can easily make this a win for him. "Look at all those liberals, they call everybody a Nazi who is not agreeing with them" and you lost. If you focus on his crap without that strange Nazi fetish you will hurt him way more and he can not outsmart you that easily.

If you use the Nazi brush with a troll like Milo he will win, it is that easy, because the left used the Nazi insult on pretty much everybody on the right already and by that diminished its meaning.

 

[Oersted]

Wagner was used by the Nazis, but was no Nazi. He is not like Leni Riefenstahl, but was used by the Nazis. So using his name is like calling yourself Nietzsche. The problem is, you make a connection while Milo is pretty sure not unhappy that you made this connection, only based on parts. So he can easily outsmart you if you call him a Nazi and even in the first sentence you may have lost any chance to actually attack his crap.

But if you attack him on his crap, not on a general basis like being a Nazi he can not outsmart you that easily. So if you only attack him on that what he said, not what he implied you are not playing his game.

So will you give me a link?

To quote one of Milos victims, who you are willing to use but not willing listening to, while downplaying hers and other abuse at the hand of this Nazi.... pardon, white supremacist who happens to wear German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement:



Can people just let go of the notion that giving hate a platform "exposes" it? You can't shame someone who is proud to be shit.

I've been saying this for years now and it's frustrating to see shitbags ascend in the attention economy bc people keep making this mistake. If you want to "expose" anything, why not talk to the people that have been targeted and hurt by the Monster of the Week. Humanize them. Show the actual damage and pain they cause instead of thinking that debating someone who isn't here to be logically correct anyway helps. You can't expose someone who is openly a scumbag to begin with by giving them MORE of a platform - you're just giving them free ad space.

Think of how much good media centering the people that are directly fucked up by the Alt-Reich or Twitler's policies could do for empathy.

Show people the actual impact and consequences instead of focusing on the theoretical. Show how bad shit actually is. Put faces on it.

You want to fight against normalization? That's how. Move it out of the realms of the theoretical, stop signal boosting lies and hatred. And *support those currently suffering and in danger* more than you support the careers of those participating in endangering them. You'll find resilience and wisdom and hope in the people who've already been fighting this shit because they've had no other choice, too.

You'll be able to help heal damage already done by letting people whose voices get squashed use your platform to tell their truths. You expose the bullshit, raise squashed voices, and get humanized first hand info. That's so much better than "more free press to shitheads." Plus no one has to look at the myriad shitty haircuts of these garbage people so it's an aesthetic win too...

Besides think of how pissy these grandstanding shits would be if the people who got to speak about them were people they wanted gone. If you can't do this shit because it's more empathetic and tactically sound, do it to annoy the shit out of a bigoted pissbaby.

And you still completely ignore my point. Wagner was not a Nazi he is implied with the culture but you still can listen to Wagner without having to love the Nazis. Same thing with the iron cross. And that is so easy to get out of, that if you are only focusing on the Nazi and why he is a Nazi you are giving him the upper hand. Because if you just call him a Nazi he can easily make this a win for him. "Look at all those liberals, they call everybody a Nazi who is not agreeing with them" and you lost. If you focus on his crap without that strange Nazi fetish you will hurt him way more and he can not outsmart you that easily.

If you use the Nazi brush with a troll like Milo he will win, it is that easy, because the left used the Nazi insult on pretty much everybody on the right already and by that diminished its meaning.

Ever heard the term feminazi? No?

 

[Trokil]

Ever heard the term feminazi? No?

So you use one stupid term the right is using to legitimize the left to use a term which may not work and only help the people we should attack.

Don't forget the link please.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

Don't forget the link please.

No one is going to be able to find this for you because it didn't happen. I believe common parlance for that sort of thing is an "alternate fact".

 

[diaspora]

How is that even possible? That they can not fight back, that the press can not talk about them, that you can not support them. So you are telling me, if Milo attacks somebody there is no way to help the person anymore, she or he has no way to fight back, there are no media outlets who want to talk about it and if you you ever fight against Milo he can send you to the phantom zone and you will never ever to be able to escape or fight back.

Ok, that is impressive.

What do you think the campus protests to block him from speaking are?

 

[Oersted]

So you use one stupid term the right is using to legitimize the left to use a term which may not work and only help the people we should attack.

Don't forget the link please.

You don't attack them.

You continiously downplay abuse, don't listen to victims, defend Milo getting plattform after plattform, attack the left.

 

[Trokil]

You don't attack them.

You continiously downplay abuse, don't listen to victims, defend Milo getting plattform after plattform, attack the left.

How do you want to know that out of the context of this discussion?
And I still would like that link please.

 

[Jackpot]

If you use the Nazi brush with a troll like Milo he will win, it is that easy, because the left used the Nazi insult on pretty much everybody on the right already and by that diminished its meaning.

How does this "Nazi label is counter-productive even if accurate" argument connect with you spending the entire thread downplaying Nazi links and imagery and the damage Milo has done?

Why is Milo not a neo-Nazi?

And I still would like that link please.

Attempted murder after trying to provoke protesters. Are you going to downplay that as well?

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/uw-shooting/

”Hey Milo," the 29-year-old former UW student posted to Yiannopoulos' Facebook page at 7:24 p.m. ”im outside in line to your UW event.

”I got sucker punched (he was a bit limp wristed) and someone jacked my #MAGA hat," he said, referring to the ubiquitous red and white ”Make America Great Again" caps worn by supporters of President Trump.


”Anyway for me to get a replacement signed by you?" the man asked

Yiannopoulos did not respond, and the man went on to be caught up in a raucous confrontation between those trying to get inside the UW's Kane Hall to see Yiannopoulos and protesters trying to keep them out.

Samie Frites, a nursing assistant who said he had gone to the protest ”to make sure nobody got hurt," said he saw a man pull ”something out of his coat and started firing these little projectiles into the crowd."

The law-enforcement source said it was pepper spray.

”I yelled at him to stop," Frites said. ”That's when this other guy came out of the crowd and went after him."

Frites said he grabbed him to try to prevent a confrontation. That's when Frites said he heard a ”muffled noise," which he is now sure was the gunshot.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If people like Trokll even remotely cared about the victims of Milo moreso than defending the man our country would be in a much better place. Holy fuck. What the fuck is with the moderates coming out of the woodwork to debate the semantics of modern day nazis? Is it supposed to be a distraction tactic?

 

[Oersted]

How do you want to know that out of the context of this discussion?
And I still would like that link please.

You continiously downplay abuse, use his victims as shield instead of listening to them, defend Milo getting plattform after plattform, attack the left and invest your energy in a white supremacist who dedicates his life to bullying and spreading anti-Semitic,sexist and racist views, who happens to wear German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement is not being called a Nazi.

I don't know you are outside of this thread.

Maybe you don't continiously downplay abuse, don't use his victims as shield and instead listen to them, don't defend Milo getting plattform after plattform, you don't attack the left and don't invest your energy in a white supremacist who dedicates his life to bullying and spreading anti-Semitic,sexist and racist views, who happens to wear German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement is not being called a Nazi.

Makes we wonder why this Trokil doesn't show up in this thread.

 

[Trokil]

Attempted murder after trying to provoke protesters. Are you going to downplay that as well?

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/uw-shooting/

So it is the Seattle incident, which first was no murder, because nobody was killed, second not really a good moment for the left, because the shooter not only turned himself in, but was also released with the claim of self defense and after that let's punch a Nazi he might even get away with it.

So all the things people told us would not help actually did not help.

If people like Trokll even remotely cared about the victims of Milo moreso than defending the man our country would be in a much better place. Holy fuck. What the fuck is with the moderates coming out of the woodwork to debate the semantics of modern day nazis? Is it supposed to be a distraction tactic?

You will not understand it do you. I know people on the Internet like the hyperbole but in the case of Milo calling him a Nazi will not help anybody because he can so easily shake it off and he does not even have to face anything of the real criticism because you are so obsessed with the terminology. He drives around circles and the only thing you can do is shout and point instead of calling him out and the crap he says, because the terminology is the most important thing.

 

[Oersted]

So it is the Seattle incident, which first was no murder, because nobody was killed, second not really a good moment for the left, because the shooter not only turned himself in, but was also released with the claim of self defense and after that let's punch a Nazi he might even get away with it.

So all the things people told us would not help actually did not help.

Does Milo seriously have to be directly linked to murder that you atleast pretend to have empathy towards his victims?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Does Milo seriously have to be directly linked to murder that you atleast pretend to have empathy towards his victims?

Milo used his university school visit to literally harass a student at the school who had to transfer out and then doubled down on that later saying women should thank him for it. Milo's a grade A piece of shit.

 

[Jackpot]

You will not understand it do you. I know people on the Internet like the hyperbole but in the case of Milo calling him a Nazi will not help anybody because he can so easily shake it off and he does not even have to face anything of the real criticism because you are so obsessed with the terminology. He drives around circles and the only thing you can do is shout and point instead of calling him out and the crap he says, because the terminology is the most important thing.

Once again:

How does this "Nazi label is counter-productive even if accurate" argument connect with you spending the entire thread downplaying Nazi links and imagery and the damage Milo has done?

 

[Trokil]

Once again:

Once again:

And you still completely ignore my point. Wagner was not a Nazi he is implied with the culture but you still can listen to Wagner without having to love the Nazis. Same thing with the iron cross. And that is so easy to get out of, that if you are only focusing on the Nazi and why he is a Nazi you are giving him the upper hand. Because if you just call him a Nazi he can easily make this a win for him. "Look at all those liberals, they call everybody a Nazi who is not agreeing with them" and you lost. If you focus on his crap without that strange Nazi fetish you will hurt him way more and he can not outsmart you that easily.

If you use the Nazi brush with a troll like Milo he will win, it is that easy, because the left used the Nazi insult on pretty much everybody on the right already and by that diminished its meaning.

You thinking the Nazi label is counter-productive shouldn't result in you investing in all these mental gymnastics in pretend Milo is just a harmless troll.

I never sad harmless, he is just a troll and not some Nazi mastermind. Exposing a troll is easy and the impact of a troll is way smaller. You give him more importance if you call him a Nazi.

 

[Jackpot]

Once again:

That's a complete non sequitur and doesn't even tangentially relate to my post.

You thinking the Nazi label is counter-productive shouldn't result in you investing all this effort into mental gymnastics to portray Milo as just a harmless troll.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You will not understand it do you. I know people on the Internet like the hyperbole but in the case of Milo calling him a Nazi will not help anybody because he can so easily shake it off and he does not even have to face anything of the real criticism because you are so obsessed with the terminology. He drives around circles and the only thing you can do is shout and point instead of calling him out and the crap he says, because the terminology is the most important thing.

Dude works for a neonazi site. I genuinely don't give a shit. If you care about terminology become a fucking english teacher instead of downplaying A VERY CLEAR EXAMPLE OF A MODERN DAY NAZI'S actions. Fuck sake at this point this fuckers could propose gassing jews and we'd have people still saying "but um, gais, we should relly, lik, not uze teh term." As fucking if you genuinely lose sleep over people using the term to describe Milo and all his ilk.

 

[Lime]

Don't spend energy on trokill's concern trolling, spend it instead on punching nazis

 

[Oersted]

What about those people that got pepper sprayed and beaten to a pulp at the riots at UC Berkeley by Milo protesters? And all that private property destroyed... trying to understand your viewpoint here because from what I read it was in self defense and he wasn't charged.

You are lying but thanks for the pretense.

Agitators also attacked some members of the crowd who were rescued by police. UCPD reported no major injuries and about a half dozen minor injuries. Mutual aid officers from the city of Oakland and from Alameda County arrived at Berkeley around 7:45 p.m. to assist UCPD and Berkeley city police.

More here

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/02/01/yiannopoulos-event-canceled/

And again, Milo uses his plattform to preach violence, abuse and far right wing rhetoric.

You can oppose both the violence he is continuing to cause and the violence that happened at Berkeley.

Or you can use the violence at Berkeley to downplay his violence, if you don't a fuck about any of the victims.

Once again:





I never sad harmless, he is just a troll and not some Nazi mastermind. Exposing a troll is easy and the impact of a troll is way smaller. You give him more importance if you call him a Nazi.

Alexandre Bissonnette was a Internet troll

He murdered 6 and injured 19 muslims 3 weeks ago

He was fed by right wing trolls you are so busy to defend

 

[Trokil]

Don't spend energy on trokill's concern trolling, spend it instead on punching nazis

The Nazis who will be able to shoot you and may get away with calling it self defense. How is that helping?

 

[Crossing Eden]

The Nazis who will be able to shoot you and may get away with calling it self defense. How is that helping?

They're white so they'd get away with calling it self defense regardless.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Tro, you keep hitting this one note: "If you use the Nazi brush with a troll like Milo he will win, it is that easy"

But I'm confused as to what you're calling a "win" here, and how it's "that easy," because you just keep repeating this over and over and the notion of your "win" is so fuzzy that I'm left wondering how he wins simply by calling out his fascist, racist, sexist, homophobic viewpoints that he's bound and determined to spread for the sake of fame and financial gain.

Now, you could point at that financial gain and say "see! He won!" but I don't know if that's really a "win," or whether that win came at the expense of people supporting him just to stick it to snobby elitist liberals who think they know better.

And even if we wanna roll with that premise, is the problem there really with the snobby, elitist liberals who dare to use a broad brush to tar opportunistic shitbirds promoting fascism, racism, sexism, and homophobia for fame and financial gain, or with the people who are way more fucking concerned with "sticking it" to people who think they're smarter than you are than they are fascism, racism, sexism, and homophobia.

This is the priority structure I've been trying to get people to look at for a lot of the thread here: You have consistently set the terms for what a "win" constitutes, how that "win" is achieved, and whose fault that "win" really is, and most of it seems to boil down to the notion that the real problem isn't the famewhore burning as many people as he can so people will pay attention to him, it's the people on the internet who think they're so smart but they're not really, and they need to be taught a lesson.

That's the basic, fundamental circuit break we're dealing with here, I think. (besides the fact there are "real" problems and then, by default, there must be "fake" ones, dismissing the notion there are multiple problems, simultaneously, that have to be addressed)

It's the same root from which people keep going back to that "you can't just ignore him" thing, and it's sister cause "All ideas have value and should be heard." We're dealing with an argument in which one side seems to be concerned about allowing a hateful worldview the airtime to spread that hate unimpeded, and another side that is concerned with a future in which their ideas might be (unfairly in their mind) considered dumb and dismissed without getting its (presumably deserved) shine.

If the core anxiety here isn't "the well-being of people less fortunate than you"but instead "people might not pay attention to me if we can just dismiss ideas out of hand" then I think we might have an idea of where that empathy is being misplaced, and why.