There might be minor differences, but you can't just say 'I can envision a paladin being better than a warrior' because frankly unless there are 5 classes in the game and you're forced to bring one of each, of course there will be differences. The point is they're not substantially different enough in terms of capabilities for it to matter. BC is LONG gone.
Mists of Pandaria Media Blowout [NDA lifted!]
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There might be minor differences, but you can't just say 'I can envision a paladin being better than a warrior' because frankly unless there are 5 classes in the game and you're forced to bring one of each, of course there will be differences. The point is they're not substantially different enough in terms of capabilities for it to matter. BC is LONG gone.
Classes are definetly homogenized in Cata, but some of the new talents in Pandaria so far are pretty class defining. I can see something like the aoe dgrip killing alot of time in some fights.
The problem is more breaking the Wow Player hivemind as well, if people see a certain advantage of bringing a dk tank with that perceived advantage, all other tanks will be ignored. I mean you could of done MT easily without a mage or warlock, but if you weren't a mage/warlock you couldn't get into a pug MT as dps at all.
I just don't see this ending well.
The problem is more breaking the Wow Player hivemind as well, if people see a certain advantage of bringing a dk tank with that perceived advantage, all other tanks will be ignored. I mean you could of done MT easily without a mage or warlock, but if you weren't a mage/warlock you couldn't get into a pug MT as dps at all.
I just don't see this ending well.
ALL dks can do that, not just tanks (you can target it on your tank) and it's not a taunt. All druids can do something similar with their gravity wells...etc. There are always small differences, AMS and bubble tend to be great in some situations, etc. But These are HEROICS, not raids. It's going to have to be something huge in order to really save time. To be perfectly honest, the biggest timesaver is going to be what group comp lets you heal the least so your healer can dps more, and where your tank will do the most damage.
I'm simply speculating about potential problems with doing speed runs (Challenge Mode). There may easily be a place where having a shaman is better than a rogue, or a death knight tank is better than another type of tank. You can bet players will be trying to figure out the best combination for getting a gold. If it turns out that one class is, in fact, better for a particular dungeon over another, I wonder what they'll do about it.
Either way, a warrior tank does play differently than a paladin or death knight tank. I have one of each. I prefer death knight over the others, but that's because it simply fits my playstyle better than the others. You're right that all can work for any content, but I was only looking at it from the perspective of trying to power through a dungeon with some speed.
FieryBalrog
Member
world first Heroic Madness was achieved by stacking arcane mages. There is always going to be SOME optimization so long as we have actual class differences (which is a good thing). The thing is, it really doesn't matter anymore unless you're in a world/realm-first kinda guild. In which case you'll just deal with it.
That was Spine! and as much as I don't want to deride 5 mans too much because they DO have mechanics, typically the speed with which you clear them is simply going to come down to patchwerk style dps unless there's some blatant ability to avoid a section of the zone, which I WOULD expect to be nerfed. The spine of deathwing '19 seconds of burst dps 6 times' type of fight doesn't tend to exist in 5 man instances.
They're just have to be more careful with stupid shit say like in King Ymiron in Utgarde Pinnacle, and all his stun phases. As a mage, I was used to be able to blink through the first and third stun phase, and trinket or iceblock outside of the other phases, and since I was arcane at the time, i would end up doing the double damage of the entire group combined.
This is an extreme example, but it's just simple minor stuff like that gets ignored when stuff is trivially easy like lk/cata heroics, but if challenging modes are actually challenging, they'll have to fine tune more of that shit out, which might be more of a headache than it's worth. They could make it easier than it should be, but at that point doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of being called a challenge mode?
FieryBalrog
Member
Why do they have to fine tune the shit out of those things, if it's still reasonably completable by most group comps at a gold level? There will be other fights where mages won't be at an advantage and another class will be.
See, as long as the content is completable (reasonably), "bring the player, not the class" philosophy is still in effect. The only ones who care about the absolute optimization are the ones going for world/realm firsts.
FieryBalrog
Member
BC heroics are an example of fucking this up. Like, Shattered Halls was technically completable with Fury Warrior/Shadowpriest/Enhancement Shaman as your DPS, but not reasonably so, compared to Mage/Mage/Rogue or whatever. Current content is an example of doing it right. The ZA/ZG heroics were ball-bustingly hard when they launched, for PUGs, yet I never had the motivation to class stack or super-optimize because I could still get it done reasonably with almost any comp.
seriously? Garrosh is one of the most retarded characters they've ever had. He's a cartoon villain through and through and making him the warchief is one of the LEAST believable decisions they ever made. It would be like making Nelson Muntz the president. There is ONE questline where he has a single scene that makes him seem like a rational character with any sort of dimension. And it's like level 30. Everything else? GARROSH SMASH RAAAAH
as opposed to the world of peacecraft?
nothing wrong with a character who wants to inject a little bit of war into warcraft imo, been a long time fucking coming
the devs hardons for making the horde equal protagonists, which is fine by itself, has made them terrified of having real conflict between the alliance and the horde, which is still the heart and soul of these games, because oh no someone might win i cant piss anyone off
garrosh fixed this by not being afraid of war or expanding the horde's power
they are literally getting rid of him as warchief one expansion after he was introduced (as warchief) because people literally complained that the horde and alliance finally werent fucking sitting around jerking each other off because they needed to kill big evil guy X
literally cowardly decision making
we need a warcraft 4 already, these guys are obsessed with their shitty book and comic characters and plotlines
nothing wrong with a character who wants to inject a little bit of war into warcraft imo, been a long time fucking coming
the devs hardons for making the horde equal protagonists, which is fine by itself, has made them terrified of having real conflict between the alliance and the horde, which is still the heart and soul of these games, because oh no someone might win i cant piss anyone off
garrosh fixed this by not being afraid of war or expanding the horde's power
they are literally getting rid of him as warchief one expansion after he was introduced (as warchief) because people literally complained that the horde and alliance finally werent fucking sitting around jerking each other off because they needed to kill big evil guy X
literally cowardly decision making
we need a warcraft 4 already, these guys are obsessed with their shitty book and comic characters and plotlines
He's so much more fleshed out in the books. The weight behind the decision to put him in the throne was not one made easy.
Willy Wanka
my god this avatar owns
I didn't like Garrosh until I did the revamped Stonetalon quests. After that I thought he was a bit of a badass, even if he still looked like a Tauren with a walnut for a head.
Anyway, the expansion looks nice and some of the new modes actually sound interesting but I almost certainly won't be back.
Anyway, the expansion looks nice and some of the new modes actually sound interesting but I almost certainly won't be back.
This is one of the worst posts I've ever read on this site.
Hell yeah. I'll be dancing on his grave. Hope the door doesn't hit him on the way out.
Woah woah, Varian is the worst. Boohoo I was held captive by the Orcs so I hate them with a passion. Yet Thrall goes through the same shit, and realizes not all Humans are assholes. I hope Garrosh takes out Varian before he dies. Put the kid back as king at least he's not an idiot.
I'm curious how they'll actually go about scaling the equipment. Will players on the very brink of hit cap on their 'real' gear suddenly not be anywhere near it for a challenge dungeon? Would my 'unhittable' tank set suddenly become very hittable (which does necessitate a slight change of tanking mindset)?
Also, what about on-use effects and procs. Those - I believe - are handled independently of the item budget, and so would need to be scaled on a case-by-case basis. And there's still the matter that some procs are simply more useful than others because of their *nature* and nothing to do with the numbers they output. Souldrinker's a current tank weapon which occasionally procs a damage attack which heals the user for the amount it damages for. That's significantly more useful than a weapon that just has a bunch of mastery, and no amount of simple scaling would affect that fact.
I don't really see that happening. I was the tank of choice for running Shattered Halls for keying purposes, but things have changed an awful lot since then. Also, it's looking like pallies are going to have their range of taunts nerfed, which should reduce our utility for speedruns.
I'm pondering whether to make our first raid group in MoP from people who have earned the most (& best) medals. I don't think that'd be a popular choice... but I bet it'd be effective.
No doubt there will be. There is already the achievement for realm first all silver/gold for challenges.
Cata didn't have any for races, since the first Worgen and Goblin would inevitably be DKs, but that won't be the case here.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Thrall making him the Warchief was where I stopped caring about the lore, tbh. So basically the plot of Cata was made uninteresting before it even started as far as I was concerned.
On a less relevant note, Garrosh's voice actor's pronunciation of "Sylvanas" irritated the shit out of me.
FieryBalrog
Member
Thrall had a human lady who helped him out. Why should everyone have the same reaction to a supremely difficult situation is beyond me.
Also, Thrall is a giant fucking hypocrite. He rages against all slavery in his wedding speech but he let that shit happen right under his nose.
Sir Abacus
Member
If you plan on pugging challenge mode and relying on the hivemind you're already doing it wrong.
Word, just read that too. I think players would be ticked if the overall outcome from a boss for the raid was 0 loot, lol.
Nice setup. Does everyone have to be on the same stage though or just one person in the group so you don't have to worry about putting together a group where everyone is at the same place?
It works like the Dungeon Finder. You get into a queue alone or with your friends, and you'll get into the raid a few mins later, it can be a fresh new group at the first boss or the 3rd one depending if another raid group lost members. If you join a group that was on the 3rd boss, you can use the Raid Finder later to kill the first 2 bosses that you missed.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I really hope they do get that in. Would go a long way towards letting me feel that I'm able to switch mains. At the moment, with so much of my WoW history and "achievement" locked to one character, I don't feel like I could ever truly switch classes, even if I wanted to. It's really only bad because I have a good amount of rare or "extinct" mounts. Same thing goes for Feats of Strength.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
This sounds awesome. Kinda starting to regret not paying much attention to the game for a while.
New loot system in RF will only toss you loot relevant to the spec you are at that time. Hybrids gonna cryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy about that one.
Its the best thing they have added in years. It was a no brainer that every tier of raiding would have it going forward. I love it. You can sub for a month, do some heroics to get to a reasonable gear level, run raid finder and see the end game content and un-sub. All without having to devote your life to the bloody game. It irritates the idiots that the casuals are even able to see the inside of these raids, but overall its good for the game. And fun.
Its the best thing they have added in years. It was a no brainer that every tier of raiding would have it going forward. I love it. You can sub for a month, do some heroics to get to a reasonable gear level, run raid finder and see the end game content and un-sub. All without having to devote your life to the bloody game. It irritates the idiots that the casuals are even able to see the inside of these raids, but overall its good for the game. And fun.
Blizz's response was pretty reasonable. Basically, "If you want to change specs, then run heroics/dungeons as that spec to get geared up to do LFR and then queue as that role".
I think it might have a terribly opposite effect though. Unless they re-do the way the ilvl check works. People are selfish and lazy. If a Paladin whose main spec is Holy wants to build a Ret set, they are more likely to just equip their holy set (to pass the ilvl queue check) and spec retribution in that Holy gear, make the raid suffer by doing terrible dps in healing gear, and collect their Ret pieces when the bosses die.
Thankfully raid finder is so stripped and bare bones compared to the actual real raids that it probably won't matter.
People usually kick the super terrible DPS(Read : Doing less than 10k even with all the buffs). A holy paladin queueing as DPS wont last long.
Varian's father trusted an Orc who then betrayed and murdered him. He probably also blames the Orcs for his wifes death. On top of that he wasn't "held captive" he was a slave.
Orcs were slaves too, but they invaded someone else's land and lost to become slaves. Thrall and Varian have not gone through the same things.
Garona was being controlled by Medivh a human. Thrall was a slave and his parents were murdered. They didn't do shit but live in the Alterac Mountains not bothering anyone.
Paladins are really the only ones being boned, here, since they can't use gear across specs like other hybrids can.
Well fuck paladins and their silly caster plate.
Wow, I...
I don't care. What an odd sensation. I was hooked on newsfeeds for WotLK, was mildly interested in Cata, and have no fucking interest in this.
Won't bother with class discussions anymore. They overhaul EVERYTHING at least once per expansion, and I haven't played in months. And after seeing that hilariously simplified talent interface, I gave up on them in terms of system design.
As for the lore, when they started putting lore in comics - beginning with their decision to take the Onyxia questline out of the game and giving it to Varian in a comic - I gave up on them in terms of story and overall concern for quality. Their characters are stupendously bad now. Varian, Med'an, and Garrosh are pathetic, and the course they took with existing characters is so very bad.
In short, I think I fucking hate this game now.
I don't care. What an odd sensation. I was hooked on newsfeeds for WotLK, was mildly interested in Cata, and have no fucking interest in this.
Won't bother with class discussions anymore. They overhaul EVERYTHING at least once per expansion, and I haven't played in months. And after seeing that hilariously simplified talent interface, I gave up on them in terms of system design.
As for the lore, when they started putting lore in comics - beginning with their decision to take the Onyxia questline out of the game and giving it to Varian in a comic - I gave up on them in terms of story and overall concern for quality. Their characters are stupendously bad now. Varian, Med'an, and Garrosh are pathetic, and the course they took with existing characters is so very bad.
In short, I think I fucking hate this game now.
But if varian didn't know garona was being controlled then that gives him reason to hate orcs, right? also - was she actually being controlled? I thought she was just persuaded or something but the details are fuzzy.
thrall was a slave because the orcs invaded azeroth and tried to take it for themselves, they brought it upon themselves. also weren't his parents murdered by orcs? again details are fuzzy it's been a while since I've talked about warcraft lore.
all I'm saying is that I can understand varian's hatred towards orcs. he's a deeper character than people give him credit for, imo. although that could just be my fanboy talking since all the characters I played were humans.
I think the new talent system in theory is far better then any of the old incarnations, well on the surface it is much simpler, it works exactly the same as it does now, except you have actual choices to make.
You still get all the cookie cutter talents for you spec as you level automatically, like things like RIME, Killing Machine, ToT, things everyone was going to take anyway. Now with the single talent tree thing w/e it is, any spec gets to cherry pick what abilities they like, and most of them are all sidegrades, so now I can do things like be a frost DK and have vampirc blood or anti magic zone, or any spec of rogue can get shadow step now. Again though, in theory, they may change it or still find some way to fuck it up.
I do wish they would spend more time on certain classes to try and redesign older abilities and cut some things and combine other things, certain classes still have way to many buttons to push, and its only going to get worse with more expansions, they really need to do something.
You still get all the cookie cutter talents for you spec as you level automatically, like things like RIME, Killing Machine, ToT, things everyone was going to take anyway. Now with the single talent tree thing w/e it is, any spec gets to cherry pick what abilities they like, and most of them are all sidegrades, so now I can do things like be a frost DK and have vampirc blood or anti magic zone, or any spec of rogue can get shadow step now. Again though, in theory, they may change it or still find some way to fuck it up.
I do wish they would spend more time on certain classes to try and redesign older abilities and cut some things and combine other things, certain classes still have way to many buttons to push, and its only going to get worse with more expansions, they really need to do something.
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