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[kasane]

whoa craig got through?!

edit: cant wait for ichiro to get in

Spoiler

or will he. first ballot in my book

 

[Sanjuro]

I'm just thinking that if those voters are trying to be consistent, which seems like a sensible thing to do, then that moral character consideration obviously isn't worth a whole lot.

Being a homophobe or racist are possibly positive intangibles for select members of the BBWAA.

 

[Sanjuro]

He was good but not great for most of his career.

Again, how do you figure?

 

[see5harp]

Baseball writers are the ones judging. I don't think they know one way or another whether someone was a good guy on or off the field unless someone tells them. Who the fuck cares what Smoltz did off the field? Barry Bonds could beat his wife and smoke crack. He'd still be the best hitter of his generation.

 

[Opiate]

I'm just thinking that if those voters are trying to be consistent, which seems like a sensible thing to do, then that moral character consideration obviously isn't worth a whole lot.

Well, even if consistency is the goal and we will admit to no mistakes ever being made, then that's still not reasonable here because surely few if any of the voters who voted Cobb in are still alive today.

Unless you want today's voters to be consistent not just with themselves, but with voters who lived before them; I'd rather they just admit that mistakes have been made in the past and change their policies, but I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong.

 

[rjc571]

Again, how do you figure?

He had very few seasons where he was one of the best pitchers in the league. Only three seasons with more than 5 WAR, only three seasons in the top 5 in ERA (despite playing in front of an excellent defense). Only was a serious Cy Young contender twice (and one of those years was as a reliever). He struggled with his control early in his career and with his durability late in his career. His resume is far less impressive than players like Mike Mussina who haven't even sniffed the hall. If there was a Hall of Very Good Players Who Were Also Assholes, he'd be a first ballot inductee.

 

[Sanjuro]

He had very few seasons where he was one of the best pitchers in the league. Only three seasons with more than 5 WAR, only three seasons in the top 5 in ERA (despite playing in front of an excellent defense). Only was a serious Cy Young contender twice (and one of those years was as a reliever). He struggled with his control early in his career and with his durability late in his career. His resume is far less impressive than players like Mike Mussina who haven't even sniffed the hall. If there was a Hall of Very Good Players Who Were Also Assholes, he'd be a first ballot inductee.

He didn't have to be a serious Cy Young contender, he won the award.

Mussina is in the same boat. He was never considered the best pitcher in the league, and you can argue the same point about never being a serious Cy Young contender except for a few campaigns. I mean, even Schilling still is pulling out ahead.

 

[Malo]

He didn't have to be a serious Cy Young contender, he won the award.

Mussina is in the same boat. He was never considered the best pitcher in the league, and you can argue the same point about never being a serious Cy Young contender except for a few campaigns. I mean, even Schilling still is pulling out ahead.

He was in 2001 but they gave it Clemens because of his win/loss record.

 

[rjc571]

He didn't have to be a serious Cy Young contender, he won the award.

Mussina is in the same boat. He was never considered the best pitcher in the league, and you can argue the same point about never being a serious Cy Young contender except for a few campaigns. I mean, even Schilling still is pulling out ahead.

You could easily make the case that Smoltz's Cy Young Award should have gone to Kevin Brown, whose ERA that year was a full run lower. Meanwhile, Mussina should have won the Cy Young going away in 2001.

Mussina wasn't the best pitcher but he was usually in the top five. Smoltz was typically a borderline top-10 guy.

 

[Delta Assault]

Wins and losses for pitchers seems like a dumb statistic. You can have a 1.00 ERA but still end up with a bad w/l record if you're stuck on a team that can't score runs.

 

[Sanjuro]

He was in 2001 but they gave it Clemens because of his win/loss record.

Clemens also wasn't a scumbag like Mussina. Plus he had the POWER!

Seriously, if I recall that year was loaded with arguable candidates anyway.

You could easily make the case that Smoltz's Cy Young Award should have gone to Kevin Brown, whose ERA that year was a full run lower. Meanwhile, Mussina should have won the Cy Young going away in 2001.

Mussina wasn't the best pitcher but he was usually in the top five. Smoltz was typically a borderline top-10 guy.

I think that would be tough to prove. He finished in the top ten pitchers often. He also converted into a dominant closer.