entremet
Member
He didn't use them get in the HOF. He used them because he saw everyone else doing the same and got competitive.
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MLB - 2015 Baseball Hall of Fame Class Inductees
- Thread starter Sanjuro
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He didn't use them get in the HOF. He used them because he saw everyone else doing the same and got competitive.
Jmanunknown
Member
Why do people never question Ruth's stats considering he played in an era before integration? He was great but, his stats were probably buffed up by being in a segregated league. Why is it that some stats from some era's matter more despite their being competitive advantages during those era's like for example segregation?
Pedro's 1999 was the most dominant year of pitching since Gibson's 1.12 ERA year at least. At least.
His ERA that year was 2.26; the second best ERA in the league that year was over 4. He was just so much better than any other pitcher in the league it was amazing.
Slaylock
Member
Maybe there's some Kingdoms of Amalur fans among the sportswriters.
Smoltz getting in over Mussina and Schilling is a joke. Do the Hall of Fame voters even follow baseball? Because anyone who paid attention in the 90s and 00s knows that Schilling and Mussina were twice the pitcher Smoltz was. Schilling had 6 seasons with 6.0 or more WAR and 8 seasons with 5.0 or more. Mussina had 4 seasons with 6.0 or more WAR and 10 seasons with 5.0 or more. Smoltz? Only one season with 6.0 WAR and only 3(!!!) seasons with 5.0. Smoltz was always a middle of the rotation guy and the numbers bear that out.
Some of Pedro's stats from 98-2003 are just jawdropping.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I think the way Smoltz developed into a dominant closer makes him kind of a unique case.
thank you.
Its incredibly annoying to see people all "lol Biggio" so yea I am going to call you out on that shit.
Also all the Biggio haters, where were you last year when he missed it by 2 votes? And yes there was some annoyance, maybe not outrage but enough for people like Keith Olberman to also make the Jeter - Biggio comparison, there Sanjuro, you happy? Not an Astros fan, made the comparison.
And Biggio haters, why are you so surprised or bitter or upset? He missed it by 2 votes last year, there was no way he wasn't getting it this year.
BobTheFork
Member
The argument I kept hearing today for PED players was that the HoF is a Museum of Baseball and should reflect the best players of every ear, even the 'shrunken ball' era.
Well firstly, I disagree that the HoF should be actively be treated like a museum. Sure, it BECOMES like a museum once it's full of great historical players, but I don't think you should be adding players for the direct purpose of creating a historical timeline.
Secondly, how the hell are they the greatest players of an era when you think they cheated? The greatest players of the Steroid era would be the great players that didn't take shortcut, if you can figure out who that is. I don't like the mentality that 'well, we have to represent that era in the HoF so someone has to go in.
I get the feeling that many commentators and writers are concerned with their personal stake. They don't want the greatest players of their generation, the players that they covered and talked about, to be considered cheats become they think it reflects on their own media careers.
I'll give the voters some credit, I thought they would cave and put these hacks in already. Glad that for now, they are holding firm.
Well firstly, I disagree that the HoF should be actively be treated like a museum. Sure, it BECOMES like a museum once it's full of great historical players, but I don't think you should be adding players for the direct purpose of creating a historical timeline.
Secondly, how the hell are they the greatest players of an era when you think they cheated? The greatest players of the Steroid era would be the great players that didn't take shortcut, if you can figure out who that is. I don't like the mentality that 'well, we have to represent that era in the HoF so someone has to go in.
I get the feeling that many commentators and writers are concerned with their personal stake. They don't want the greatest players of their generation, the players that they covered and talked about, to be considered cheats become they think it reflects on their own media careers.
I'll give the voters some credit, I thought they would cave and put these hacks in already. Glad that for now, they are holding firm.
matthewwhatever
Member
Oh, absolutely. Without even considering segregation, Ruth played against way worse competition than anyone today, didn't have to travel nearly as much, was facing the same tired pitchers all game...when you factor in segregation, his numbers deserve to be discounted as much as or more than anyone who played during the "Steroid Era".
I'm just saying that if someone considers pre-1998 Barry Bonds to be a non-all-time great player, then those are some ridiculous standards for what constitutes greatness.
Yea good luck with that.
For me it's the 99 ALDS when he came out of the bullpen against the Indians.
Larkin, Walker, Sosa, McGwire, Bagwell - down like they were nothing. Chills.
smokeymicpot
Beat EviLore at pool.
Aaron Boone getting two votes is amazing.
Cal Ripken. Nolan Ryan.
Those are two people you'll never hear linked to PEDs, but whose careers I always msintained were suspiciously PED-like. PEDs don't just give you power, they let you recover faster. So you're throwing high heat into the late years like Ryan, yet Clemens gets pegged as suspect for doing the same. Cal's iron man record was also really unusual in the era of long disable lists. People think PEDs mean thick necks and big bats, but it doesn't. Some guys don't necessarily bulk up the same anyway. So all it became was a witch hunt to find scapegoats for the era so baseball could place all the blame on these select individuals and ignore the institutional failures that lead to it. Also to distract from the fact that we really don't know all the people using. We have no idea. So put a face on it, put a ban on them and bury heads in the sand.
I say since we don't know the extent of the abuse, vote guys on their merits. That means Big Mac gets in. And though he was never an amazing player like Bonds, he and Sosa were two guys who helped drive baseball back into the spotlight. Their HR race is remembered for both men, not one over the other. Then again, my entire baseball viewership was during the steroid era. That goes back into the 80s imo, which is when I started watching. PEACE.
Those are two people you'll never hear linked to PEDs, but whose careers I always msintained were suspiciously PED-like. PEDs don't just give you power, they let you recover faster. So you're throwing high heat into the late years like Ryan, yet Clemens gets pegged as suspect for doing the same. Cal's iron man record was also really unusual in the era of long disable lists. People think PEDs mean thick necks and big bats, but it doesn't. Some guys don't necessarily bulk up the same anyway. So all it became was a witch hunt to find scapegoats for the era so baseball could place all the blame on these select individuals and ignore the institutional failures that lead to it. Also to distract from the fact that we really don't know all the people using. We have no idea. So put a face on it, put a ban on them and bury heads in the sand.
I say since we don't know the extent of the abuse, vote guys on their merits. That means Big Mac gets in. And though he was never an amazing player like Bonds, he and Sosa were two guys who helped drive baseball back into the spotlight. Their HR race is remembered for both men, not one over the other. Then again, my entire baseball viewership was during the steroid era. That goes back into the 80s imo, which is when I started watching. PEACE.
Someone else mentioned the transition to closer. I thought that's what clinched it for him. Wasn't he always third in the rotation behind Mad Dog and Glavine? PEACE.
Yes he was. Clearly Mussina should have taken a break from the rotation for a while and dominated the pen for a couple years to prove his utility.
Pete ain't getting in until he is dead and buried. They aren't going to let him profit off the HOF induction.
I expect a similar fate for some of the big name PED guys. They will have to wait until they are either dead or old and infirm before the veterans committee or board of directors or wtfever they are calling themselves now lets them in.
I'm just happy to see Smoltz get in on his first ballot, was worried some clueless voters would hold his win total against him cause he spent time at closer.
Dude is one of my favorite athletes.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Mussina already amassed 300 more career innings than Schilling so the fact Mussina has fewer Ks is telling - Schilling's rate stats are superior.
Schilling's peripheral stats are really, really good. Looking at 1969 onwards with a minimum of 2000 IP, only two starters have a better K-BB% than Schilling (Pedro and Randy). If you look at K/BB, he's on top of the list, ahead of Pedro. His FIP- is only behind Pedro, Randy, and Clemens. Sorting by WHIP, Schilling is 4th behind Pedro, Catfish Hunter (what a name) and Seaver during this time frame.
Mussina's like 12th, 8th, 13th, and 20th respectively on those lists.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Bonds, Clemens, Arod, and similar players are incredibly gifted athletes. Incredibly gifted athletes whom also happen to be narcissistic maniacs. When you show the skill they had at their age you're pampered your whole life and get nothing but constant praise. You will do whatever you can to help keep your career on an upward trajectory.
This sounds contradictory to my statements about PEDs not improving ability, but it is in fact different.
BobTheFork
Member
Well, yeah, that's my point. You can never determine who was clean. That doesn't mean you are forced to honor these clowns with an induction.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
So are you saying players like Bonds, Clemens and Piazza don't deserve to be in the hall of fame despite being some of the best players at their position irregardless of PEDs?
GitarooMan
Member
Tim Raines better get in eventually, people need to smarten up.
That lack of October glory is part of it, too I'm sure. And plus Mussina didn't get cancer and start blabbering about evolution all over twitter which definitely hurts with the BBWAA demographic.
Future Foundation
Member
I'm sorry? You must be confusing fans with that collective steaming pile of horseshit that masquerades as sports media in NYC.
Okay so your point is that no one that played during the years that Bonds, McGuire, and Sammy Sosa are suspected of using PED's should be inducted? That's what you are saying?
BobTheFork
Member
Was Piazza ever link to roids in any way?
To answer, yeah I do. I've never liked the arguement that they were Hall of Famer's anyway because that give them the benefit of the doubt that the cover stories they made after being caught or implicated about only using for certain, small periods in special cases is true. 'I didn't KNOW I did it' 'I only did it to get back from injury because I care that much'... I think that's a bunch of crap.
If being a hall of famer without roids wasn't good enough than too bad. The decision to cheat should lock them out. I feel like if someone argued that Lance Armstrong should still be revered because he was great before we know he used PED's, you'd look at them like a crazy person.
If you want people to learn about this era and these players, put them in the Nation Baseball museum, not in the Hall of Fame.
Steroids? No.
PED? Gray area. Did things like Andro (along with a ton of other players) before it was illegal.
EDIT: Apparently Andro IS a steroid.
You just said there's no way to prove that anyone playing during that time was clean.
Why? Because that was the only thing needed to convince you?
Piazza should absolutely be in by this point, and it's the writers acting like petulant children on a power trip. There has never been anything of any substance implicating Piazza in steroid use, just rumors and speculation.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
The performance gains Armstrong got from doping and EPO are on a whole other level. The performance gains in competition PEDs provide cyclist and track & field athletes is completely different.
How do you feel about the other cheaters and scumbags in the hall? If it's meant to be a place of purity of the game should they all be kicked out too? Guys have come out and said they threw spitballs and everyone just goes "OH WELL."
There's been grumblings of him taking PEDs during his tenure. People commonly refer to his backne, stupid reason, and the time he played. It's similar to Bagwell's situation.
Jack Remington
Banned
Keep Bonds out. It's a fitting punishment.
Congrats to John Smoltz!!! Its only right to have him in there alongside Maddux and Glavine.
Randy and Pedro Im cool with as well, I never liked the teams they played on, especially that D-backs team that knock the Braves out in 2001, but I was always a fan of their abilities.
Randy and Pedro Im cool with as well, I never liked the teams they played on, especially that D-backs team that knock the Braves out in 2001, but I was always a fan of their abilities.
No, it just eliminated the credibility of the article instantly.
Woody Invincible
Banned
Yep, my dad shook his head when I told him about that.
Mussina wasn't a power pitcher though either. He was a groundball type of pitcher. He had several near 20-win seasons and a couple of near perfect games that he loss in the 9th inning - like the one against the RedSox. I think he was an under the radar gem for his time & now is the time for him to be recognized for a stellar career.
BobTheFork
Member
Well, I'll admit I don't know enough about admissions of cheating after people are already in the hall. If they there were up for the hall know and we knew, then I'd argue the same for them. We know about these guys now, and what many of them did and I don't think they should be in the hall of fame for it.
I think keeping them out could be a line in the sand for future users as well. I don't want the message to be that you can cheater and still get in if people think you were good enough without cheating. IT's why Pete Rose got the permaban. They wanted to make sure that people in the game knew if you gamble on games, it's fucking over for you forever.
Of course we are talking about one player vs an entire era of the game.
'If you want to sit among the greatest of all time, you can't do this stuff' should be the message.
There's no right answer either - If I had a vote, it wouldn't go to them.
Ninja Scooter
Member
and major league benchwarmers like Andre Ethier or BJ Upton make $12 million a year
im real bad at detecting sarcasm over the webs...but is this a joke?
True true. I was just laughing at his argument that not getting in the hall of fame should deter people from using PED's. It's the same argument people use for the death penalty.
BobTheFork
Member
I feel like there are hundred of reason for a person to justify cheating and we've heard quite a few of them over the years.
I didn't know
I only did it when I hit a bad slump
Everyone else did it and I have the right to keep up
Because I had an injury
I was just so competitive
That's how much I love my team and the game.
I did it for the fans
I also think there unfortunately, are very few reason NOT to cheat.
-It's wrong
-It could ruin my image and career, taking away any credit from my actions and prohibiting me from being honored by my fans and peers.
I would love to not have another of those few reason removed.
It's not like that era of the game left us. Guys still get caught, so they clearly don't think it's wrong and don't think it could damage their careers.
I didn't know
I only did it when I hit a bad slump
Everyone else did it and I have the right to keep up
Because I had an injury
I was just so competitive
That's how much I love my team and the game.
I did it for the fans
I also think there unfortunately, are very few reason NOT to cheat.
-It's wrong
-It could ruin my image and career, taking away any credit from my actions and prohibiting me from being honored by my fans and peers.
I would love to not have another of those few reason removed.
It's not like that era of the game left us. Guys still get caught, so they clearly don't think it's wrong and don't think it could damage their careers.
Nope.. it's actually a commonly held belief.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Can anyone help me understand how Johnson got more votes than Pedro? I just can't see it.
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