This style of protest is still highly effective though. It is much better keeping attention than non-disruptive movements and as a result is more likely to result in some eventual success. As recently as this decade there have been people who created countrywide change around the world by being disruptive and impeding things like traffic and public services.
MLK Day Protesters Block Traffic on the Bay Bridge
- Thread starter Dalek
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This style of protest is still highly effective though. It is much better keeping attention than non-disruptive movements and as a result is more likely to result in some eventual success. As recently as this decade there have been people who created countrywide change around the world by being disruptive and impeding things like traffic and public services.
shadowsdarknes
Member
I think people are failing to recognize the nuanced arguments people are making.
Some people seem to be incapable of recognizing a disagreement over a specific action and equating it to marginalizing black lives or not taking the movement seriously.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
There's a long, long way to go, and you don't let people forget.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Ok, so you don't like traffic getting blocked. You don't have to like every type of protest, but know that it has a history of effectiveness.
But if you aren't helping in some significant way, I honestly don't care. There's an abundance of "critique". Diversify your effort.
But if you aren't helping in some significant way, I honestly don't care. There's an abundance of "critique". Diversify your effort.
EatinOlives
Member
I've explained how it was apt for Tesseract's posts, though, so I really don't know what you're getting at. It's not my fault other people misuse the quote.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
😐 Did. It. Happen.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Try to move the perspective 180 degrees and understand the frustration when we can't actually ever protest the lopsidedly racist way blacks get killed by cops because they disrupt a Bernie Sanders rally/Hillary Clinton Rally/Traffic for 30 minutes and that makes people feel a little bit inconvenienced and they have to whitesplain something about the tactics behind protesting.
Coffee Dog
Banned
I mean, let's get real here: Even if you aren't a white supremacist, if you're telling people to stop letting their voices be heard and enacting change, you are saying the same shit the white supremacists are saying.
It ain't a good look.
freeofgreed
Member
I think in your case specifically most of us have had encounters with you in the past in these types of threads and know which way you sway. So if you're sensing a lack of good faith coming from us it's due to that "faith" wearing thin a long time ago.
No I'm not? We're making headaway precily because of protests like these. These protest keep the message in the media and prevent it from going away. If BLM was doing some kumbaya shit, they would't even be a thing today and police would've kept on they merry way killing unamared black folks.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Obama can arguably be seen as one of their biggest supporters and he has the loudest voice. He condemns police brutality when it happens. He's the President, is arguably one of the most powerful people and for the past 8 years, and it hasn't changed a damn thing.
calling them terrorists is a bit of a stretch
shadowsdarknes
Member
Did it happen? Did someone's lives get lost? That's all you're going on to marginalize his concern? Just because something didn't happen as a result of an action doesn't mitigate one's concern.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
If your concern is what COULD happen, yet you can't answer if it DID happen, and somehow you're on that side of things..welp.
So, that's all y'all got. This "what if?" shit every thread. Yet I need to be the rational one. Yeah..keep going, friend.
Not at all.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Unfortunately, all it is a personal annoyance. You being annoyed for an hour or two is not as valuable as the message the protest is sending. If these protesters denied passage to emergency vehicles or people with pressing issues IE "hey, so I need to get my mom's medication from the pharmacy across the bridge" then, yeah, I'd agree, but that probably never happens (I'm going to bet on the probably part). Take the annoyance, don't try to tell them how to protest if it's not killing someone.
Telling them to not protest on the road is dialogue certain groups want to further because it's effective at getting people against certain protests because people will believe, "they're blocking emergency crews!" is 100% true.
If someone is just being an ass and construes your post in a certain way either ignore them or explain your position further. If explaining further yields nothing but more ass-ery then walk away.
Big Baybee
Member
Forcefully took over a building with weapons and threatens to murder anyone who tries to remove them......what are they?
I've largely been pro-BLM. I don't think people are making these judgements based on past history with me, but instead because of assumptions they're making about me.
I think he's saying not wanting traffic blocked doesn't necessarily equate to white supremacy. You could always question the priorities but people in here tend to take the moral grandstanding pretty far, same goes for the opposite reaction. I mean, there's always an issue out there that is bad but completely off the radar to almost everyone. It would be easy to argue that everyone in this thread is complicit in human rights abuses for buying products from countries where people live under repressive regimes and have even less rights than your average black person, but it would be a stretch to call them imperialists or something.
Coffee Dog
Banned
yeah? how exactly?
Max Armstrong
Member
My first reaction was to think that it must suck for the people stuck on the bridge, because I see myself in their places and it must really be a shitty way to finish your day. But then when I take the time to really think about it, putting myself in the places of the people protesting, it's a thousands time worse that they have to use such methods to get themselves heard, that they even need to go to through such actions to get their messages across, which is clearly a sign of something wrong somewhere.
I'm just pissed that my first reaction is always on the side of the people being disrupted and only when I take a minute to really think about it, then I'm able to understand why they would even need to do this. And then I'm pissed that they even need to do this kind of protest in the first place. Such a shitty situation all around. Let's hope one day there's no need for such protest, but in the mean time you gotta do what you gotta do.
I'm just pissed that my first reaction is always on the side of the people being disrupted and only when I take a minute to really think about it, then I'm able to understand why they would even need to do this. And then I'm pissed that they even need to do this kind of protest in the first place. Such a shitty situation all around. Let's hope one day there's no need for such protest, but in the mean time you gotta do what you gotta do.
What, do you think the government lets them stay there because they're afraid of having an awkward conversation?
Tesseract
Banned
we'll agree to disagree
and not for nothing, i've protested for blm at unis all across florida (bernie supporter)
i fully support the message (literally), just not all the actions
Not asking the Chiefs to break the code of silence but at least start a dialogue about creating more accountability for the officer's actions. Small baby steps.
Yeah, so lets keep the momentum!
These protests tarnish the message in the media. That's what I don't want to happen.
Obama is a lot of talk (that's his job). I was thinking getting the support from popular figures in the media. Maybe someone like Kayne West? That guy loves to be in the headlines and always thinks he's the second coming. Would be a perfect person to spread a positive message. He'd love the attention.
Creativity is the key here.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
It's not that people are valuing their own convenience over black lives. They don't understand how these protests save black lives, because the connection between these protests and saving lives, isn't obvious. It's more subtle and it requires time. It also takes knowledge of how prior (similar) protests have effected change, which not everyone has. It's much easier to understand that, if an ambulance gets stuck in a blockade, someone might die. That's a clearer and immediate connection that more people can understand.
Similarly, the people in favor of this protest aren't in favor of risking lives, for no reason. The hope with these protests is that they contribute to an environment where perceptions about black people change, such that black lives are saved in the process. Hopefully enough to balance out the risk.
I actually think everyone in here is in favor of saving lives, they're just calculating the risks and benefits differently.
Similarly, the people in favor of this protest aren't in favor of risking lives, for no reason. The hope with these protests is that they contribute to an environment where perceptions about black people change, such that black lives are saved in the process. Hopefully enough to balance out the risk.
I actually think everyone in here is in favor of saving lives, they're just calculating the risks and benefits differently.
freeofgreed
Member
Are you actually though? If you are I apologize, but in every thread I see you that involves racism (not necessarily BLM) I've always seen you post some questionable shit.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Considering how effective this sort of protest has proven itself to be, it's an opinion that supports and enables white supremacy.
If you invoke fact denial on that level, then yeah, people are going to start thinking things.
We shouldn't coddle the willfully ignorant.
I'd argue that mass gatherings outside police stations or government buildings that do not impede the coming and going of others would be more valuble, especially if protests go on for days. Everyone paid attention to the Ferguson protests and Occupy Wall Street; no one blocked roads to win that attention. I only remember discussion of the issues in regard to those protests. I don't remember much in the way of argument about the way in which protestors were trying to get attention in these cases, although I'm sure it happened. However, this thread is about nothing but that.
There's a happy medium between "stay in your designated protest zone" and "blockade roads".
Not that it matters, but as a (white) Canadian, I support BLM. I don't support the way this protest was carried out, and I don't think it's a useful way to gain the right kind of attention: the kind of attention that leads to more support amongst people who were previously ignorant or apathetic towards a given cause.
False.
Idiot ranchers taking over a building in the middle of nowhere doesn't impact the public.
And the Bay Bridge isn't just "an extra 5 minutes" to get around. More like 2-3 hours.
At least they didn't completely block access to Children's Hospital like they did the last time there was a BLM protest.
I understand the need for protests, but it's not like SF and the Bay Area are a hotbed of police violence. Of course that may be part of the reason for locals treating it the same way as the ranchers. It's seen as a problem for "other places" that aren't bothering to address the issues.
Blocking the bridge into SF would delay anyone trying to get into the City for 2-3 hours (to drive around the Bay and access via the south or the Golden Gate), but it would only directly impact emergency services that were in transit right before the shutdown.
Once the shutdown was known, hospitals would reroute ambulances to alternate destinations on either side of the Bay.
I don't know if it's different in the US. But here in Europe, people are obliged to form a rescue lane in traffic jams:
Failure to do so can result in harsh fines. I guess it's the same in the US. In that case, there is no reason to worry about hypothetical emergencies. After all, traffic jams happen all the time, no matter the reason. So I really do not see the issue here. Most likely it's just an inconvenience. And as others have rightly pointed out, almost all protests, willingly or unwillingly, need to be slightly inconvenient to be heard. And a traffic jam is on the lower end of inconveniences.
Nope. That doesn't happen in the US and that didn't happen here. They completely blocked the bridge. No one was getting through.
You would be wrong.
The last time there was a major BLM protest in the area, it was slightly farther to the East. They didn't block the bridge that time, but they did completely block access in and out of Children's Hospital.
The organizers didn't really give a crap about how it impacted the hospital.
That was what soured me on the local groups. Protest the rich. Protest inequality. Go to town. Shut down Market street in downtown SF.
But when you put the lives of poor children at risk just for a chance to riot in the streets, you lose me. Children's Hospital is a non-profit, takes all regardless of ability to pay and has the best high risk NICU in the area (competes with Stanford down in Palo Alto).
If you supposedly stand for the vulnerable, you don't purposefully put the most vulnerable at risk.
So, the BLM protesters at the police station were treated just like the squatting ranchers then?
If there was an emergency like Fire or an Ambulance was needed then why would it have to go across the bay bridge? I admit I am not familiar with the area but surely there are fire departments and hospitals on both sides of the bay that could help with emergencies for their respective side?
also wouldn't various dispatches be aware of the bridge being blocked and take alternate routes or measures?
seems like a silly argument imo..
also wouldn't various dispatches be aware of the bridge being blocked and take alternate routes or measures?
seems like a silly argument imo..
freeofgreed
Member
The media will tarnish the message regardless. From the right wing we get the typical racism, from the left wing we get the typical judgmental "we're better than that" shit. Also look at the amount of coverage peaceful protests get vs "riots". The media loves to vilify black protesters. So if you're goal is for that not to happen...well good luck but it's a loosing battle.
BLM has a lot of celebrity supporters, including Kanye, Jay-Z, Russel Simons, Prince, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Macklemore, Dave Chapelle, Kendric Lamar and Samuel L Jackson who have all used the platforms they have to support the movement. They've shown support on everything from their Twitter accounts to National TV for the last two years. It hasn't been enough and these more physical steps are needed to keep attention on the cause.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
If you think so many people in this thread don't get it, magnify that by hundreds if not thousands of people who go by protests like these outside in the real world. "They're making me late; what if there's an emergency; I could be spending my time elsewhere; this is 2016 we're already equal; they should stop breaking the law".
It's amazing how people rationalize situations like systemic racism and inequality.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Source?
Do you actually expect inner city black people to march out to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge for their protest? Sorry but this is dumb fucking comparison.
Also I guarantee if BLM showed up in eastern Oregon with guns and took over a federal building there would have been some shit happening right away. I am born and raised not far from Burns and I guarantee the response would have been completely fucking different.
So lets not use the idiots "not bothering the public" thing.
freeofgreed
Member
Off the top of my head I definitely know this isn't true. But we're getting off topic and I'm not trying to turn this into a personal attack on you so I'll stop.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I wouldn't call him a white supremacist.
I would say that if his concern about this protest is that people are inconvenienced on their morning commute rather than the fact that black folks wouldn't even be out there if they had not been driven to this extreme (which ain't that extreme) by the society that they live in, it reveals something about his priorities.
No one is saying that he's in a hood and blankets holding a cross, but certainly, civil rights history is littered with privileged people who care about injustice insofar as they don't actually have to deal with the messes that injustice causes. Their comfort comes before the lives of people who are in danger of extermination via state sanctioned policing.
"I'm not racist, but I'm willing to put up with the racist state if it means that I won't be inconvenienced," I believe, is a fair way to put what some of these folks are saying.
If you feel that way, the MLK quote might describe you.
shadowsdarknes
Member
I mean.. parking in front of a fire hydrant and impeding a fire fighter is slim. But I'm not going to park in front of one and then mock my friends who said not to park there.
That is a big negative good buddy
Schools, and Federal offices were shut down
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/schools-reopen-near-militia-showdown-in-oregon
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/burns-area_schools_reopen_as_a.html
at least BLM did it on a holiday when federal offices and schools were closed normally.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Freedom fighters
States' rights activists
Seriously, it's ridiculous how fervently people are about policing people who refer to these people as terrorists.
I would prefer to either seriously talk about what you just said or it not be mentioned from the start. It's wrong to lightly talk about somebody's character like that and then move away from it. I take that as a serious claim about me and I'd expect absolute statements of deplorable behavior like that to be backed up. Even saying "I know off the top of my head that isn't true, but let's not get into the gritty details. It would be off topic" is pretty messed up. Either show it or don't say it.
Not really. Social movements aren't a science. So there's not any particular way to know for certain how this method of protest will play out or whether it's even worth doing.
There's almost certainly issues that you're willfully ignorant of.
Exsctly. To win (peaceful) change, those are exactly the people whose minds one needs to change. Exactly the people you don't want to alienate.
Tesseract
Banned
I'm not black, and the best I can say I've done for black people is that I haven't gone out of my way to discriminate against them in any way. Across America, blacks are being profiled, shuffled into prisons, murderered, and trapped in poverty, families torn apart for one reason or another. Some protesters fucked up your commute for a day, but the establishment has been fucking with them their entire lives. And so, having contributed fuck all for humanity's march towards justice and equality, the least I can do is not get in the fucking way.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Wow, this is a really bold move. Kudos on the balls to pull this off. I'm doubtful it will lead to anything meaningful, at least during the rest of Obama's term -- he seems annoyingly resistant to being seen as a "black President" -- but at least it will get the national conversation moving in the right direction and lead to real change in 2017. People need to realize the suffocating nature of systemic racism.
As for the "children" concerns... yeah, I can sort of sympathize. I have an 8 month old and a 3 year old, and if I was coming home and all of a sudden I had an unexpected 2-3 hour delay while someone else is watching them, I would panic. I'm talking melting down, sweating type of panic. But a lot of that is irrational fear, because logically I know their health is not directly related to my physical presence for those two hours.
Spending time with my kids means the world to me. It's the best thing I can possibly do with my life right now. Even so, I can donate a little time if it means them growing up in a slightly more equitable world.
As for the "children" concerns... yeah, I can sort of sympathize. I have an 8 month old and a 3 year old, and if I was coming home and all of a sudden I had an unexpected 2-3 hour delay while someone else is watching them, I would panic. I'm talking melting down, sweating type of panic. But a lot of that is irrational fear, because logically I know their health is not directly related to my physical presence for those two hours.
Spending time with my kids means the world to me. It's the best thing I can possibly do with my life right now. Even so, I can donate a little time if it means them growing up in a slightly more equitable world.- Status