MLK Day Protesters Block Traffic on the Bay Bridge

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SlimySnake said:
Do you not go to work or something?

What about taking your kid to the doctor?

Or maybe you've never had a wife go in labor?

What about ambulances?

That guy said nothing wrong. Stop demonizing him.
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think of the hypothetical lives at stake even though the protesters kept a lane for emergency vehicles open
 
SlimySnake said:
Do you not go to work or something?

What about taking your kid to the doctor?

Or maybe you've never had a wife go in labor?

What about ambulances?

That guy said nothing wrong. Stop demonizing him.
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Why would ambulances be on the bridge? Why would you be on the bridge if your wife is in labor? What sort of appointment are you taking your kid to? If it's an emergency, then why are you on the bridge?

A quick search finds tons of hospitals and medical locations on both sides:

LvBDklt.png
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I don't know why you'd be going over the bridge for an emergency.
 
NoblesseOblige said:
Why would ambulances be on the bridge? Why would you be on the bridge if your wife is in labor? What sort of appointment are you taking your kid to? If it's an emergency, then why are you on the bridge?

A quick search finds tons of hospitals and medical locations on both sides:



I don't know why you'd be going over the bridge for an emergency.
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What if they were on Treasure Island? Or one of those silly one-way streets on SF's side?
 
spock said:
Now on a personal note, I can see both sides of the coin here. I can say as a single dad of 2 girls ages 6 and 8, if I got stuck unable to reach my kids that would most def upset me quite a bit. Obviously for most there was no school, but as others have said you have other situations were this method of protest could cause someone real harm (EMS, etc.) Honestly any protesting from any group that I felt was harming my kids in someway is going to lose out on that emotion/perception regardless of the truth of the matter.

You'd drown out your message in the noise of my emotional upset. Humans are more moved by emotion than reason. If your trying to make a person think but are stimulating them in an emotional way that is in-congruent than your simply not being as an effective communicator as you could be.And the emotional side of things will almost always win out.
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Giant Panda said:
I would have been annoyed if my route was blocked, by BLM or any other group. On one hand it is undeniable that this form of protesting does pretty well on raising awareness, but it accomplishes this by inconveniencing many people to the point it makes to the news. Because of that, I would have to think that this form of protesting does poorly on the persuasion metric. I haven't really thought about it much, but surely there must be a form of protesting that does just as well on raising awareness while also doing better on the persuasion metric.
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Hmm.

Retrocide said:
It's funny that people always seem to bring up MLK to shame people about protest by using one line or two of a quote. Here's what he had to say about the white liberal which has many parallels to ehat many posyers ate saying inthis thread

The white liberal must rid himself of the notion that there can be a tension-less transition from the old order of injustice to the new order of justice … the Negro cannot achieve emancipation by passively waiting for the white race voluntarily to grant it to him. The Negro has not gained a single right in America without persistent pressure and agitation. However lamentable it may seem, the Negro is now convinced that white America will never admit to him equal rights unless it is coerced into doing it.

Nonviolent coercion always brings tension to the surface. This tension, however, must not be seen as destructive. There is a kind of tension that is both healthy and necessary for growth. Society needs nonviolent gadflies to bring its tensions into the open and force its citizens to confront the ugliness of their prejudices and the tragedy of their racism.


It is important for the liberal to see that the oppressed person who agitates for his rights is not the creator of tension. He merely brings out the hidden tension that is already alive. Last summer when we had our open housing marches in Chicago, many of our white liberal friends cried out in horror and dismay: “You are creating hatred and hostility in the white communities in which you are marching. You are only developing a white backlash.” I never could understand this logic. They failed to realize that the hatred and the hostilities were already latently or subconsciously present. Our marches merely brought them to the surface. How strange it would be to condemn a physician who, through persistent work and the ingenuity of his medical skills, discovered cancer in a patient. Would anyone be so ignorant as to say he caused the cancer? Through the skills and discipline of direct action we reveal that there is a dangerous cancer of hatred and racism in our society. We did not cause the cancer; we merely exposed it. Only through this kind of exposure will the cancer ever be cured. The committed white liberal must see the need for powerful antidotes to combat the disease of racism.

The white liberal must escalate his support for the struggle for racial justice rather than de-escalate it. This would be a tragic time to forsake and withdraw from the struggle. The need for commitment is greater today than ever.


Taken from his last book “Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?” (1967) (pages 88-91)
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Kid Kamikaze10 said:
Because the effort achieve both isn't worth it. If anything, I'd rather have different groups attempting different goals.

In the Civil Rights Movement, it wasn't just MLK jr. Sure he was there with his disruptive protests, and no, he wasn't gaining people's approval for that but making it known what will be done if people don't listen.

But there were others. There was Malcolm, there was Stokley, Septima Poinsette Clark, Diane Nash, Ella Baker. Some mostly spoke and weren't as disruptive, some were student protesters that were VERY disruptive.

And then there were the Panthers and the Deacons. The folks that made it known that they will protect their own by any means necessary, approval be damned.

Frankly, black folks in the US need all those different styles and we are surely lacking on the third. They need the status quo to be willing to listen, but also afraid of what happens when they don't.
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Having multiple groups working on different goals most def makes sense. I do still think more effective ways could have been brainstorm, but I do think multi-goal strategy makes sense. However, perhaps there are not enough people or structure or leaders, etc to tale that approach. If thats the case and your constrained by people/resources than maxamizing effectivness with what you have and can do should be a big priority.


@Slayven - I get what your saying, but there are people who will listen if you attempt to talk with them in a way they can understand. That was my point in the post a few spots above. Its not like these folks are lost causes.

I know from personal experience that if I open a dialog FIRST in a context that resonates with the person I'm talking to, that once they start listening, I can begin to share or broaden there understanding on something because NOW there listening, but thats because I intentionally approached the conversation with that goal in mind. To listen to me not by coming from an aggressive frame, but through a touch point of mutual resonance. Basically there not distracted or closed off to hearing me. Were basically trying to manipulate/direct the conversation in whatever medium being used.
 
BLM isn't about making would be allies comfortable. It is about highlighting racism and police brutality.

If the dozens, and dozens of police video of straight murder doesn't garner any sympathy. Me pulling you aside and going "Sir can I talk to for a moment?" isn't going tip the scales

There were periods last year of one horrific account after another.

But we still have to convince folks, and do it in soft tones and warm cookies.
 
benjipwns said:
What if they were on Treasure Island? Or one of those silly one-way streets on SF's side?
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I'd hope an island with a navel marina would have better contingencies in place than relying on a busy bridging system when responding to medical emergencies. Even without protests it sounds patently silly to send an ambulance over a bridge during traffic when a medical response team via boat would be significantly faster.
 
Slayven said:
BLM isn't about making would be allies comfortable. It is about highlighting racism and police brutality.
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And if someone needs "winning over" on that point, there's not much point wasting time going out of your way to make them comfortable enough to acknowledge that that's a worthwhile endeavor.
 
NoblesseOblige said:
I'd hope an island with a navel marina would have better contingencies in place than relying on a busy bridging system when responding to medical emergencies. Even without protests it sounds patently silly to send an ambulance over a bridge during traffic when a medical response team via boat would be significantly faster.
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What if an airplane crash landed onto the bridge because the pilot was going into labor?
 
EdibleKnife said:
And if someone needs "winning over" on that point, there's not much point wasting time going out of your way to make them comfortable enough to acknowledge that that's a worthwhile endeavor.
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I mean serious. do people not realized they are saying "Why should I give a damn if you die?"

Honestly I respect them more if they saud that.
 
You guys are out here working hard on these what if stories about moms going into labor shooting out babies on this bridge.

Should go ahead and write an ebook. Amazon will let you self publish.
 
Slayven said:
BLM isn't about making would be allies comfortable. It is about highlighting racism and police brutality.

If the dozens, and dozens of police video of straight murder doesn't garner any sympathy. Me pulling you aside and going "Sir can I talk to for a moment?"

There were periods last year of one horrorific account after another.

But we still have to convince folks, and do it in soft tones and warm cookies.
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Slayven said:
I mean serious. do people not realized they are saying "Why should I give a damn if you die?"

Honestly I respect them more if they saud that.
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All of this.

I honestly think Americans have a seriously unhealthy amount of apathy, looking at both this and the gun violence situation. Hell even look at how we handle economics, the treatment of the poor. That's violence onto itself. I want to say this is a recent problem, but it's been this way since before the USA was a nation.

I keep thinking, how the hell do you fix a nation of violence?
 
Kid Kamikaze10 said:
All of this.

I honestly think Americans have a seriously unhealthy amount of apathy, looking at both this and the gun violence situation. Hell even look at how we handle economics, the treatment of the poor. That's violence onto itself. I want to say this is a recent problem, but it's been this way since before the USA was a nation.

I keep thinking, how the hell do you fix a nation of violence?
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It's mostly apathy towards minorities. If this were a story of a bunch of white people protesting income inequality on the bridge then a significant portion of the "this is ridiculous" crowd would be singing a tune of support.
 
what if people in America put an end to their systemic racism in policing, politics, education and finance?

they can keep clutching their purses and shit like that, but what if they stopped the above?
 
NoblesseOblige said:
It's mostly apathy towards minorities. If this were a story of a bunch of white people protesting income inequality on the bridge then a significant portion of the "this is ridiculous" crowd would be singing a tune of support.
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Everyone cares when they like the one doing the talking and when the issue directly impacts them in some way

The Faceless Master said:
what if white people in America put an end to their systemic racism in policing, politics, education and finance?

they can keep clutching their purses and shit like that, but what if they stopped the above?
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The purse clutching is just the physical manifestation of all of the above.
 
 
The Faceless Master said:
what if white people in America put an end to their systemic racism in policing, politics, education and finance?

they can keep clutching their purses and shit like that, but what if they stopped the above?
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As in sets up the laws to do all of that?

We have a much healthier nation, and a very angry white population.

Which will lead to a very unhealthy nation in the future, unless they are no longer the majority.


But really, see Crimson_Gold's response.
 
EdibleKnife said:
Hmm.
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Great quote by MLK, but it doesnt make what I'm trying to say any less true. Nor am I saying what King was saying in particular about the subconscious currents in the white mindset is false.

What I am saying is that disruption in a way that creates negative tension to achieve the desired goal is "a way" but it's not the only way and probobly not the best way. There is also many forms of tension (negative or positive).

@Slayven - Again, I cant speak for others but I'm not saying anything about milk and cookies. What I am saying is there are still better methods that the one being discussed. Its like your saying what they did was the only option. Sorry its not.

You brought up all the shooting videos.Hmmm, wonder if those could have been utilized to piggyback or hijack other media events. Hmmm, the o-scars are coming up could a large enough protest be done to block off or disrupt that event. Maybe combine that with broadcasting shooting videos on any "white" walls in the area at the same time. What else could be coordinated as a multi prong "attack" at the same time?

Now I'm just dumping stuff off the top of my head, my point is, given time and planning peeps could come up with something potentially more effective.

Edit: To be clear I'm more or less arguing about the tactical action side. Thinking from the context of maximum effectiveness given a set resources, etc.
 
A lot of people don't have that frame of reference. That you being pulled over by the police for a whatever reason might end up with you dying. And I am glad they never have to worry about that, and I hope to enjoy the same comforts.

But the problem comes when they instant chastise anyone that doesn't have those luxuries. Then wonder why the oppressed people didn't seek their approval and permission to stand up.

No one ever says I was for women receiving equal pay, but

No one ever says I was for gay marriage, but

No one ever says I was for income equality, but


Only when the issues are black issues does the Tone Policing Storm Troopers appear/
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
These conditional allies don't give a shit about anything but their own comfort. They will never, ever step up for black people. BLM has been going on for years now. Where have they been? What has to be done for them before they'll do anything for anyone else?
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That's kind of a self-defeating attitude. "If we can't get them to be on our side, that's their problem," is a wholly unhelpful way to look at the issue. The WHOLE POINT is to get more people on-board with your way of thinking. You really can't just be like fuck 'em when there's so many of them out there. Perhaps we need to rethink our strategy. If we can't get these people on-board, our strategy has failed.

Aztechnology said:
Sorry I should have clarified that wasn't my personal position. I was mirroring the inevitable response we get in these threads whenever someone calls out these kind of actions as detrimental to the movements efforts to garner support.
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lol, it's honestly hard to tell around these parts. Thanks for the clarification.

DontBeThatGuy said:
People are apathetic enough, so sometimes a little jolting to lives and thoughts of others is what's needed. You can ignore a protest off to the side, there's been plenty of those, but you can't ignore this, and if it turns people away from a very important and real issue to a lot of people, then so be it.
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No, don't let it be. Like I said above, the whole point is to get these people on-board in the first place. Getting their attention is only the first step. We need to actually convince them that this is an issue that needs to be urgently addressed. If it turns more people away from a very important and real issue than it draws in, then the protests are a failure.


I'm honestly baffled by all the people saying "who cares if it turns away people?" That's the whole point - to get people to turn towards you and join your cause. You're not going to effect societal change without getting the rest of society to join you in your beliefs/cause. Like I said, getting attention is important, but it's only the first step. Saying "but at least it gets people's attention" seems irresponsibly short-sighted.
 
Pork said:
That's kind of a self-defeating attitude. "If we can't get them to be on our side, that's their problem," is a wholly unhelpful way to look at the issue. The WHOLE POINT is to get more people on-board with your way of thinking. You really can't just be like fuck 'em when there's so many of them out there. Perhaps we need to rethink our strategy. If we can't get these people on-board, our strategy has failed.
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Their strategy worked with getting me on board. I imagine I'm not the only one. Probably would have never heard about it if they were just sidewalk protesting.
 
Pork said:
That's kind of a self-defeating attitude. "If we can't get them to be on our side, that's their problem," is a wholly unhelpful way to look at the issue. The WHOLE POINT is to get more people on-board with your way of thinking.
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No, it's not. People seeing what the problem is and how riled up folks are about it and why is what gets people into it.

And if that fails, disruption is supposed to show that things aren't going to allowed to be "business as usual" as long as this shit keeps happening.
 
NoblesseOblige said:
Their strategy worked with getting me on board. I imagine I'm not the only one. Probably would have never heard about it if they were just sidewalk protesting.
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Cool, so it's working to some degree. What we need to get a better understanding is specifically which strategies work and which don't. Obviously you were on-board with BLM before this particular protest, yeah? Which event in particular was it that got the light to click on in your head? Or was it just the whole movement collectively?

We also need to assess how many are being brought in vs how many are being pushed away. Most polls as of now aren't looking too good in regards to support for BLM.

Kid Kamikaze10 said:
No, it's not. People seeing what the problem is and how riled up folks are about it and why is what gets people into it.

And if that fails, disruption is supposed to show that things aren't going to allowed to be "business as usual" as long as this shit keeps happening.
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Depends on what you mean by "people getting into it." If you mean just the conversation in general, it's not a positive if they're getting in on the conversation on the "anti" side.
 
I wonder if this movement would get less hate if it wasnt called blacklivesmatter. It immediately instigates the "why only black lives" response and lack of empathy from other racial groups.

Regardless, the point of protesting is to get your attention. As people have said constantly, people have to resort to this to get attention sometimes because otherwise most would ignore it
 
NoblesseOblige said:
Their strategy worked with getting me on board. I imagine I'm not the only one. Probably would have never heard about it if they were just sidewalk protesting.
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I'd wager you're more of an outlier I would say. In general sure, lets say they get (fake numbers for example only) 3% on board with the strategy being discussed. Do you knot think its possible to get more people on board or at least on the route to getting on board with a better strategy?

I'm also looking at things from a basic marketing standpoint. A classic formula is known as AIDA (Attention > Interest > Desire > Action). I personally think framing the game plans with the goal of getting people to move along that framework makes the most sense. Now to get them to do all that in a single protest is probobly difficult, but lets say you get the attention part, you want it to lead into interest.

The problem is if you do things that closes dialog or creates negative association your going to make it that much harder to educate and move people along the chain of understanding and action.
 
Future said:
I wonder if this movement would get less hate if it wasnt called blacklivesmatter. It immediately instigates the "why only black lives" response and lack of empathy from other racial groups.

Regardless, the point of protesting is to get your attention. As people have said constantly, people have to resort to this to get attention sometimes because otherwise most would ignore it
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Why don't other specific social movements have to be called something that is more inclusive? I mean, all lives do matter, but the point of this movement is to focus on the social injustices that are impacting black lives.

Pork said:
I don't think he said "all other movements' names are perfect as is." IMO there are tons of other positive social movements that could really use a better PR department.
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These aren't PR campaigns. Do you think everyone was sympathetic to the civil rights protesters in the 60s? They weren't. People were upset with them and some were more than happy to see them beat, shot with water hoses and attacked by dogs. All things are not meant to have a friendly face. Some medicine, yes, this is medicine, doesn't taste good. People need rude awakenings sometimes. Coddling people that are oblivious is not always the way.
 
Crimson_Gold said:
Why don't other specific social movements have to be called something that is more inclusive? I mean, all lives do matter, but the point of this movement is to focus on the social injustices that are impacting black lives.
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I don't think he said "all other movements' names are perfect as is." IMO there are tons of other positive social movements that could really use a better PR department.
 
People continuing to cite the name as a problem are being obtuse. Lets be real, the kind of people who see the name "Black Lives Matter" and go, fuck they hate whites! were already going to be the ones critical of the movement under any name in the first place.
 
Pork said:
We also need to assess how many are being brought in vs how many are being pushed away. Most polls as of now aren't looking too good in regards to support for BLM.
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Again, the Civil Rights Activists never had good polls. A whole lot of people in the country only warmed up to them after results were made (and a bunch, like MLK died or retired).

Not very relevant.

Depends on what you mean by "people getting into it." If you mean just the conversation in general, it's not a positive if they're getting in on the conversation on the "anti" side.
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If they see the footage of black folks dying and are anti regardless, then again, they aren't relevant outside of being another obstacle.


Is PR and good marketing helpful? Sure! Is placating to the apathetic helpful? I say it's a waste of energy.
 
Future said:
I wonder if this movement would get less hate if it wasnt called blacklivesmatter. It immediately instigates the "why only black lives" response and lack of empathy from other racial groups.

Regardless, the point of protesting is to get your attention. As people have said constantly, people have to resort to this to get attention sometimes because otherwise most would ignore it
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Actually I think the fact you said it instigates the question "why do only black lives matter" shows why its effective. If it creates the space for the right question to be asked than I see that as a good thing. The key is the question it creates in the space of the listener.
 
Pork said:
Cool, so it's working to some degree. What we need to get a better understanding is specifically which strategies work and which don't. Obviously you were on-board with BLM before this particular protest, yeah? Which event in particular was it that got the light to click on in your head? Or was it just the whole movement collectively?
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It was actually listening to the responses of black members on GAF that got it to 'click' for me. The first time I heard of BLM it was when they interrupt Bernie's speech. My initial thought was "well that is stupid, they're doing themselves more harm than good". But I try to keep those sort of comments to myself because I understand as a white person I have a specific privilege with blind spots. So I read other commenters who describe personal anecdotes and issues of living in America as a black minority and how they feel underrepresented, and forgotten, and hated, and thought to myself "damn, things are really f'ed". Those who further a status quo need to be challenged. That's not going to happen if minorities picket sidewalks. Those methods only work for white people such as myself, because as a nation we only care about white voices.

spock said:
I'd wager you're more of an outlier I would say. In general sure, lets say they get (fake numbers for example only) 3% on board with the strategy being discussed. Do you knot think its possible to get more people on board or at least on the route to getting on board with a better strategy?
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I was probably already an outlier by recognizing I have certain privileges due to my skin. And as I said above, minorities protesting on the sidewalk wasn't going to get the attention it deserves because we as a nation only care about broadcasting white voices.
 
Future said:
I wonder if this movement would get less hate if it wasnt called blacklivesmatter. It immediately instigates the "why only black lives" response and lack of empathy from other racial groups.

Regardless, the point of protesting is to get your attention. As people have said constantly, people have to resort to this to get attention sometimes because otherwise most would ignore it
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Doesn't matter what the movement is called, if it has the word "black" in it, and it's pro black in anyway, bitch mades will hate.

Pretty much has been the state of being black in America since 1776 anyway.
 
Kid Kamikaze10 said:
Again, the Civil Rights Activists never had good polls. A whole lot of people in the country only warmed up to them after results were made (and a bunch, like MLK died or retired).

Not very relevant.
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And look at where we're at now...

If they see the footage of black folks dying and are anti regardless, then again, they aren't relevant outside of being another obstacle.

Is PR and good marketing helpful? Sure! Is placating to the apathetic helpful? I say it's a waste of energy.
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If they're hostile they're not really apathetic, are they? And the thing is, those folks have the right to vote as well :-/

You do really need to address them as well. In fact, they're kind of at the core of the problem. Fixing the situation necessarily means getting them to change their minds. That is, unless you're okay with the woefully slow pace of change that we've seen up until now, which has largely been achieved by just letting older generations die out. Hence low support for the Civil Rights Movement still leading to some change.
 
studyguy said:
People continuing to cite the name as a problem are being obtuse. Lets be real, the kind of people who see the name "Black Lives Matter" and go, fuck they hate whites! were already going to be the ones critical of the movement under any name in the first place.
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It's not that anyone thinks someone hates whites because of that name. The name provokes a response of "why not my life" if you are any race other than black. And helps fuel negativity. It's not inclusive and thus doesn't get an inclusive response

Is it the only source of negativity? Hell no, haters would hate this no matter what. But saying the name has no effect is a little obtuse to me
 
Future said:
It's not that anyone thinks someone hates whites because of that name. The name provokes a response of "why not my life" if you are any race other than black. And helps fuel negativity. It's not inclusive and thus doesn't get an inclusive response

Is it the only source of negativity? Hell no, haters would hate this no matter what. But saying the name has no effect is a little obtuse to me
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I need to go to a women's rights group and say, why not my rights. I'm a man and I deserve rights. Do you see how selfish this type of thinking truly is. Everything doesn't have to be about everybody, nor should it be a requirement for it to be an issue that needs proper attention an resolution.

Tesseract said:
a new day

this doesn't turn me off blm at all, i'd be slamming this kinda hooliganism no matter what. every group has its bad apples, all you can do is condemn them and move on.

i'll keep protesting the best i can, this is definitely a worthy cause. i hope everyone is active in their own way.
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How exactly is this hooliganism? There was no looting. There was no violence. They merely inconvenienced people. I can't...
 
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