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[VGEsoterica]

Didn't see that one coming. $50 cheaper than Analogue 3D, an enhanced core from FPGAZumSpass based on the MiSTer FPGA N64 core...and the hardware will be open to port any cores over to it anyone would want. And considering it's going to have a much larger Logic Element footprint than the Cyclone V on the MiSTer FPGA with it's Cyclone V and much better memory functionality...its now just a $200 FPGA console that happens to play N64 carts

That is going to sting Analogue

 

[RoboFu]

I knew FPGA retro consoles where about to blow up when I started seeing FPGA hdmi nes consoles appear on Aliexpress. I will be surprised if we do not start seeing a lot of these in the near future.

 

[diffusionx]

ok now im interested

 

[Dacvak]

Wonder if it's powerful enough to handle a NAOMI core. That would be incredible.

 

[Quasicat]

So for those that follow the fpga hardware, what can this do well? I'm sure it can do up to PlayStation, but what about Saturn or even Dreamcast?

 

[squidilix]

FPGA running 100% accuracy the N64 (same framerate droping etc.. ?)or it's just emulation?

 

[Raven77]

Literally like reading Chinese.

I'm interested but have no clue WTF you just said.

 

[Quasicat]

Literally like reading Chinese.

I'm interested but have no clue WTF you just said.

Exactly. I just want to know what it can do and how to do it.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Literally like reading Chinese.

I'm interested but have no clue WTF you just said.

Ok that's fair

The FPGA chip is designed, as all FPGA chips are, to be programmable. That means. "Cores" (think of them as drivers almost) are loaded into the cores as files. That reconfigures logic gates inside the FPGA chip to basically…become the hardware it's running

FPGA needs to be a PS1? It configures the FPGA for a MIPS CPU and the 3D hardware for a PS1. Plus all the rest of the silicon

Want to play Saturn next? Load the core file and the FPGA configures the logic to be a Hitachu SH2 (dual cpu designs) and VDP 1 and VDP 2 for Saturn

It functions differently than software emulation as it's a parallel processing approach vs software being a step or sequential process

So the cores program the FPGA chip to "be a N64"

 

[crazyriddler]

Literally like reading Chinese.

I'm interested but have no clue WTF you just said.

An FPGA is basically a chip that can be physically configured like other chips, so it can recreate classic consoles at the hardware level. It's like having many classic consoles that are identical to the original hardware.

Logic elements are responsible for recreating the chips, so the more you have, the more advanced hardware you can recreate.

This N64 FPGA has more than the Mister machines (which are the ones that recreate the most consoles), so in short, you can have all the machines available on Mister and who knows, maybe even Dreamcast (the latter is not possible with Cyclone V).

 

[Raven77]

Ok that's fair

The FPGA chip is designed, as all FPGA chips are, to be programmable. That means. "Cores" (think of them as drivers almost) are loaded into the cores as files. That reconfigures logic gates inside the FPGA chip to basically…become the hardware it's running

FPGA needs to be a PS1? It configures the FPGA for a MIPS CPU and the 3D hardware for a PS1. Plus all the rest of the silicon

Want to play Saturn next? Load the core file and the FPGA configures the logic to be a Hitachu SH2 (dual cpu designs) and VDP 1 and VDP 2 for Saturn

It functions differently than software emulation as it's a parallel processing approach vs software being a step or sequential process

So the cores program the FPGA chip to "be a N64"

An FPGA is basically a chip that can be physically configured like other chips, so it can recreate classic consoles at the hardware level. It's like having many classic consoles that are identical to the original hardware.

Logic elements are responsible for recreating the chips, so the more you have, the more advanced hardware you can recreate.

This N64 FPGA has more than the Mister machines (which are the ones that recreate the most consoles), so in short, you can have all the machines available on Mister and who knows, maybe even Dreamcast (the latter is not possible with Cyclone V).

Thank you both! I get it now, mostly.

Definitely seems pretty exciting.

 

[kevboard]

meanwhile Analogue still not really showing their system...

 

[peronmls]

Just get an emulator. It's not an official console. No different than an emulator.

 

[awwr999999]

Modretro's actually a clever way of pressuring Nintendo into reopening their legacy platforms on a modern console with actual Nintendo HW.
They need to double down - add network connectivity with an online game shop and open the platforms to game studios.
They could do that with an add-on device like a WiFi enabled N64 cart with a microSD card slot for storing purchased ROMs.
From that point all they need to do is get a few big exclusive new games.
If it 'works' Nintendo will realize that they could do the exact same thing for far less money and bring AAA studios onboard with launch day exclusives.
If it doesn't 'work' Modretro will effectively own Nintendo's best platforms (minus the Nintendo branding).

 

[DreamcastSkies]

pressuring Nintendo into reopening their legacy platforms on a modern console with actual Nintendo HW.

I've wondered if Nintendo would ever do something like this. Make a retro console. Print physical copies of classic games that people can order from their store. I feel like there's got to be a market for that.

 

[ZehDon]

Just get an emulator. It's not an official console. No different than an emulator.

For something as complex and notoriously difficult to replicate as an N64, I'd be inclined to agree. I know FPGA chips can get close to cycle accurate with 16 bit systems, but I'd have to see some evidence to convince me they've gotten there for the N64.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

UI and compatibility with original physical games is going to be the next battlefield in the FPGA market until hardware comes out that can clearly surpass what we have now. Otherwise, you're just basically getting a choice of casing for a Mister, which has been available for a long time ( VGEsoterica , please correct me if this is too simplistic of a take on the current market). As user-friendly as the Mister is right now, it's still a geek's thing with a geek's interface.

Analog bet too much on the retro fetishist and collector's side of things, and it's now coming back to bite them in the ass. The Pocket is currently the only unique proposition they have that's really worth it above any alternative, but if Taki Udon really delivers on his promised handheld FPGA, even the Pocket may soon belong to history.

Just get an emulator. It's not an official console. No different than an emulator.

Yes and no. Many of these devices can output to an analog display with a bare minimum of tinkering with menus, which can't be said for emulators running on PC or most emulation devices. And speaking from direct experience, unless you're emulating on PC, setting up an emulation device, especially an Android-based one, requires a lot more time and information than I needed to assemble and get my Mister Pi running.

Sure, with emulators you get many more options.
As for accuracy, it'd be interesting to have side-by-side comparisons between original hardware, FPGA, and emulators. As much as I like VGEsoterica 's "one hundred percent as you remember it" shtick, an actual A-to-B showdown is long overdue. I remember watching a video briefly showing the same game running on FPGA and emulation and the emulator going out of sync in a matter of seconds, but that's too little.

 

[cyberheater]

What actual benefit is there to this rather than running something like a raspberry pi?

 

[bighugeguns]

What actual benefit is there to this rather than running something like a raspberry pi?

It replicates the feeling perfectly rather than emulating an approximation.

Outside of using real original hardware it is authentic.

There's nothing wrong with free emulation, but if perfect accuracy makes you happy then these things will blow you away. $200 for something this capable is peanuts.

 

[calistan]

What actual benefit is there to this rather than running something like a raspberry pi?

I guess it plays original cartridges, but otherwise the only thing you don't get from 'normal' emulation systems is enhanced geek cred. FPGA is just a fancy emulator, with all the pros and cons that entails.

 

[VGEsoterica]

I guess it plays original cartridges, but otherwise the only thing you don't get from 'normal' emulation systems is enhanced geek cred. FPGA is just a fancy emulator, with all the pros and cons that entails.

It really isn't; it's achieving a result via diff means. This isn't "Honda Accord or Porsche 911" where both are cars...but one is "more special"

It's more like "water colors vs oils" where both paint a picture but the method is wholly diff to get the result

 

[calistan]

It really isn't; it's achieving a result via diff means. This isn't "Honda Accord or Porsche 911" where both are cars...but one is "more special"

It's more like "water colors vs oils" where both paint a picture but the method is wholly diff to get the result

Ehh, I'm sure this debate goes around endlessly, but a core is still an emulator. It doesn't magically transform an FPGA chip into the original hardware any more than running SNES9X turns your PC into a SNES.

Also, when you're outputting the results to a 65" LCD TV with fake scanline filters I don't think either method can claim to be authentic. FPGA devices are cool (I do have one) but I think a significant part of their appeal is that they enable their advocates to distance themselves from common emulator plebs.

 

[SScorpio]

Ehh, I'm sure this debate goes around endlessly, but a core is still an emulator. It doesn't magically transform an FPGA chip into the original hardware any more than running SNES9X turns your PC into a SNES.

Also, when you're outputting the results to a 65" LCD TV with fake scanline filters I don't think either method can claim to be authentic. FPGA devices are cool (I do have one) but I think a significant part of their appeal is that they enable their advocates to distance themselves from common emulator plebs.

Expect it does, an FPGA is software defined hardware. So you are reprogramming how the FPGA works anytime you load a core. Those same FPGA designs can be used to create a new chip that works the exact same way.

An emulator does similar but purely in software on a modern CPU. The issue is the consoles have dozen of chips all working together, while an emulator is limited to how many threads you can run at once. You also have no control over the CPU scheduler so you can't guarantee how something will execute as threads are swapped out to run other things. On a FPGA it's running at the clock speed and never deviates. The MiSTer NeoGeo core is extremely accurate, as the creator developed it as a way to figure out all the custom chips and now sells replacements to fix real NeoGeo hardware.

A software emulator can be coded to be extremely accurate, but if it's running under a non-realtime OS all bets are off on timing, while an FPGA doesn't have to deal with that. An average person may not notice a difference, but there were many times with the MiSTer on firing up a well known game and things just click and it feels right versus using emulators.

In the end an FPGA core and emulators are coded by people and can both have bugs. But hardware revisions of consoles can also act slightly different, and any parts of tolerances which can cause extremely small timing differences, but cause different results. This is seen in the speed running community where someone using their childhood system is pulling off a glitch, but on other consoles it's not possible.

 

[crazyriddler]

Ehh, I'm sure this debate goes around endlessly, but a core is still an emulator. It doesn't magically transform an FPGA chip into the original hardware any more than running SNES9X turns your PC into a SNES.

Also, when you're outputting the results to a 65" LCD TV with fake scanline filters I don't think either method can claim to be authentic. FPGA devices are cool (I do have one) but I think a significant part of their appeal is that they enable their advocates to distance themselves from common emulator plebs.

FPGA isn't the same thing as emulation.
Emulation is just software pretending to be the old hardware. It runs on top of your PC/console/whatever, and how "accurate" it is depends on the code. That's why some emulators have glitches or timing issues.
An FPGA is different, you actually reprogram the chip itself so its circuits behave like the original hardware. It's not faking it in software, it's literally acting like that hardware at the logic level.

 

[VGEsoterica]

FPGA isn't the same thing as emulation.
Emulation is just software pretending to be the old hardware. It runs on top of your PC/console/whatever, and how "accurate" it is depends on the code. That's why some emulators have glitches or timing issues.
An FPGA is different, you actually reprogram the chip itself so its circuits behave like the original hardware. It's not faking it in software, it's literally acting like that hardware at the logic level.

Correct. This is a misconception people have...that FPGA cores do nothing different than software emulation minus "charge people money for hardware"

I am not saying software emulation can't rival FPGA cores but the underlying tech definitely differs in many ways so as to not mean software emulation = FPGA core

 

[RoboFu]

What actual benefit is there to this rather than running something like a raspberry pi?

a lot of emulators are still not cycle correct for everything. sound is usually a big issue along with lag.

 

[SScorpio]

Correct. This is a misconception people have...that FPGA cores do nothing different than software emulation minus "charge people money for hardware"

I am not saying software emulation can't rival FPGA cores but the underlying tech definitely differs in many ways so as to not mean software emulation = FPGA core

FPGA cores aren't just magically the same as real hardware though. They can have bugs or timing issues. But they can be tuned down extremely tightly.

Outside of MiSTer's memory issues preventing some systems from running, my belief is most people won't see benefit with newer systems. The people begging for a Naomi core would be looking to put it into a Jamma cabinet. But for running on a TV or PC, access to higher resolution rendering would be better. Even the PSX/N64 generation is iffy on the MiSTer. You can do texture replacement and other things with software emulators that can enhance the games.

 

[Parazels]

Are there any FPGA owners? How do you use those consoles? Plug and play, or do you have to tweak some shit every day?

 

[crazyriddler]

FPGA cores aren't just magically the same as real hardware though. They can have bugs or timing issues. But they can be tuned down extremely tightly.

Outside of MiSTer's memory issues preventing some systems from running, my belief is most people won't see benefit with newer systems. The people begging for a Naomi core would be looking to put it into a Jamma cabinet. But for running on a TV or PC, access to higher resolution rendering would be better. Even the PSX/N64 generation is iffy on the MiSTer. You can do texture replacement and other things with software emulators that can enhance the games.

I disagree that using high resolution improves the quality of PSX/N64 games, as they are designed to be played on CRT screens (or at low resolution with filters). HD texture packs make them look even worse, not only do they tend to overload the artistic design, but low poly with HD textures is a bad combination.

FPGA is simply a superior solution. In a short time, it has achieved greater precision than emulators that have been in development for decades, while also offering latency equal to the original hardware and superior to that of any emulator.

 

[SScorpio]

I disagree that using high resolution improves the quality of PSX/N64 games, as they are designed to be played on CRT screens (or at low resolution with filters). HD texture packs make them look even worse, not only do they tend to overload the artistic design, but low poly with HD textures is a bad combination.

FPGA is simply a superior solution. In a short time, it has achieved greater precision than emulators that have been in development for decades, while also offering latency equal to the original hardware and superior to that of any emulator.

It's down to personal preference. But I feel this looks much better than the original textures in Mario Kart 64. Enable a CRT filter as well as it looks much better than the blurry mess of the original.

 

[StereoVsn]

FPGA cores aren't just magically the same as real hardware though. They can have bugs or timing issues. But they can be tuned down extremely tightly.

Outside of MiSTer's memory issues preventing some systems from running, my belief is most people won't see benefit with newer systems. The people begging for a Naomi core would be looking to put it into a Jamma cabinet. But for running on a TV or PC, access to higher resolution rendering would be better. Even the PSX/N64 generation is iffy on the MiSTer. You can do texture replacement and other things with software emulators that can enhance the games.

Yeah, for PSX Duckstation is a must, IMO, unless you are running an actual CRT TV.

For N64, PC recompiles are probably best bet if they exist for a particular game.

 

[crazyriddler]

It's down to personal preference. But I feel this looks much better than the original textures in Mario Kart 64. Enable a CRT filter as well as it looks much better than the blurry mess of the original.

Of course, it's a matter of preference. FPGA is aimed at those who want an experience closer to the original hardware, and in that respect it's better than emulators.

For me, the most important thing is consistency. In other words, for a classic game to look good in HD, it would have to be completely redone (models, textures, lighting, etc.), since classic games were designed to look good on SD screens. Anyway, as you say, it's a matter of preference.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Are there any FPGA owners? How do you use those consoles? Plug and play, or do you have to tweak some shit every day?

1) Turn it on the first time and download some stuff to a SD card.
2) Put all the games you want on the same SD card
3) Connect your favorite controller

After these steps, it's literally plug and play. Most cores are pretty much done at the moment. Every week or two there may be some updates to minor things, and when you feel like it you can run a script and have everything nicely updated in a matter of minutes. But you don't even really need to, and the system will never bug you to do it.

It's much more of a hassle to set up Retroarch on your phone or any dedicated Android device.

 

[nkarafo]

FPGA running 100% accuracy the N64 (same framerate droping etc.. ?)or it's just emulation?

Highly doubt it's going to be 100% accurate to N64. The console still has a lot of undocumented behaviors, unemulated timings and a lot of guesswork.

FPGAs are not any different to emulators when it comes to that. Accuracy is not an inherent or exclusive thing to FPGAs. They can be just as accurate or as buggy as software emulators.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Yeah this one fucked Analogue. I'd prefer to support Analogue because I love my Pocket and honestly fuck Palmer Luckey, but they really dropped the ball here. FPGA chips are still crazy expensive by themselves, but if (when) they drop in price, we will see something truly undeniable for game preservation.

 

[theHFIC]

Interesting and good for Palmer with his passion projects, but I am sticking with my ever changing Analogue 3d preorder which may ship at some point. I am in it for using my actual cartridges. I have 20 other devices within reach or attached to my television that can play roms.

 

[nkarafo]

As for accuracy, it'd be interesting to have side-by-side comparisons between original hardware, FPGA, and emulators. As much as I like VGEsoterica 's "one hundred percent as you remember it" shtick, an actual A-to-B showdown is long overdue. I remember watching a video briefly showing the same game running on FPGA and emulation and the emulator going out of sync in a matter of seconds, but that's too little.

For something as complex and notoriously difficult to replicate as an N64, I'd be inclined to agree. I know FPGA chips can get close to cycle accurate with 16 bit systems, but I'd have to see some evidence to convince me they've gotten there for the N64.

As i pointed out some other times, accuracy is not an inherent FPGA thing. There are some FPGA cores that are more accurate than emulators (like the Saturn core vs Mednafen Saturn) and there are some emulators that are more accurate than the FPGA cores (such as Bsnes). And some that are equally incomplete, like the Mister N64 core vs Ares and Gopher64, though Ares is probably more accurate as the Mister FPGA N64 core uses many per-game hacks to reach 100% compatibility, just like the good old HLE emulators do.

Also, this article: https://archive.ph/2018.07.07-112551/https://byuu.org/articles/fpgas-arent-magic/

An FPGA is different, you actually reprogram the chip itself so its circuits behave like the original hardware. It's not faking it in software, it's literally acting like that hardware at the logic level.

Accuracy based LLE emulators do the same thing, just in software. They don't just emulate the games like HLE emulators do, they emulate the system and the games run as a side effect.

The difference is that FPGAs can do that more efficiently and require less power for the same job.

 

[SScorpio]

Interesting and good for Palmer with his passion projects, but I am sticking with my ever changing Analogue 3d preorder which may ship at some point. I am in it for using my actual cartridges. I have 20 other devices within reach or attached to my television that can play roms.

But the M64 can also play your original N64 cartridges. It sounds like it will also access ROMs as well. Much like the Analogue Pocket.

 

[theHFIC]

But the M64 can also play your original N64 cartridges. It sounds like it will also access ROMs as well. Much like the Analogue Pocket.

I know it will play cartridges too and the rom support was only recently added. For me personally, I already have a preorder in for the Analogue 3D and none of the developments of the M64 or its features give me any reason to cancel what I have with Analogue and go this route.

 

[crazyriddler]

As i pointed out some other times, accuracy is not an inherent FPGA thing. There are some FPGA cores that are more accurate than emulators (like the Saturn core vs Mednafen Saturn) and there are some emulators that are more accurate than the FPGA cores (such as Bsnes). And some that are equally incomplete, like the Mister N64 core vs Ares and Gopher64, though Ares is probably more accurate as the Mister FPGA N64 core uses many per-game hacks to reach 100% compatibility, just like the good old HLE emulators do.

Also, this article: https://archive.ph/2018.07.07-112551/https://byuu.org/articles/fpgas-arent-magic/



Accuracy based LLE emulators do the same thing, just in software. They don't just emulate the games like HLE emulators do, they emulate the system and the games run as a side effect.

The difference is that FPGAs can do that more efficiently and require less power for the same job.

FPGA technology is capable of cycle-level emulation of any chip.

Obviously, it needs further development, but it is much more viable for achieving perfect emulation than LLE (although for practical purposes they pursue the same goal, there will always be differences in timing that, due to the nature of emulation, cannot be matched, or you would need absurdly powerful hardware to do so), not to mention all the necessary layers of abstraction that introduce input latency.

FPGA has achieved in much less time something that emulation has taken decades to achieve, in addition to doing so with much more efficient and cheaper hardware (accurate emulation requires a CPU with a certain amount of power).

 

[nkarafo]

FPGA technology is capable of cycle-level emulation of any chip.

Yep, so does software emulation. Bsnes is a cycle-accurate, pretty much perfect recreation of a SNES. More so than the Mister core or analogue NT.

And it's not the only cycle-accurate emulator of course, it's just the one that's considered the most mature and closest to perfection.

FPGA has achieved in much less time something that emulation has taken decades to achieve.

Yes, because a lot of work was already done by the emulation community and devs. Decades worth of information about how consoles work, etc, was already done.

There's also the case of Higan/Bsnes, that the Analogue NT devs used as their reference for accuracy and to fix their own bugs. But they wouldn't add this information in their marketing talk.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Love VGEsoterica quietly addressing accuracy disputes in today's video

 

[nkarafo]

He is a Youtuber but he is also just an end user peasant like the rest of us. It's the developers who have a say in this and Byuu/Near's article is like a manual. I will listen to his words before everyone else's.