Moon Studios (Ori devs, No Rest For the Wicked devs) are in trouble

Hm. They trashed GamePass by saying they didn't want to give away their game. Think that would have been a smart idea then.

Honestly, the game looks kind of cool but it doesn't really do anything for me. And I always felt their founders were douches. So, good luck I guess.

Edit:

Just saw his tweet 'clarifying' stuff, which is such a bad look. Like, his message on Discord is pretty clear. And people are still talking about how there was no review bombing. lol

Moon Studios was such a promise. What a disappointment.
 
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StreetsofBeige said:
He said that too? When? Seems like mixed messages.
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Yeah, that's what the tweet said, and it just highlights how mixed his messaging has been... inconsistent. One moment it's the studio might not be around in a few months, and the next it's "no immediate financial danger."

He focused on some outlier reviews from a long time ago to paint a narrative of being unfairly targeted, when in reality, the recent reviews correlate directly with issues gamers had with The Breach update.

He's conflating genuine criticism of the game itself with personal attacks and political discourse. Bringing up politics and past controversies just feels like muddying the waters.

And, well... it worked, because there's been a spike in positive reviews today.

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mrqs said:
Hm. They trashed GamePass by saying they didn't want to give away their game. Think that would have been a smart idea then.
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Is that not just an honest appraisal that they've made 2 critically acclaimed games and in hindsight probably would have made 20x the money if they didn't go down the Game Pass route?

If anything this has always been the ultimate evidence that the Game Pass model doesn't work for developers.
 
Banjo64 said:
Is that not just an honest appraisal that they've made 2 critically acclaimed games and in hindsight probably would have made 20x the money if they didn't go down the Game Pass route?

If anything this has always been the ultimate evidence that the Game Pass model doesn't work for developers.
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Well, and now they're in this situation. A new IP is always tricky. The game didn't do so well and now they're in trouble. I can appreciate the 'courage' of going full independent, but now they have to handle with the risk they took.

I personally don't think that a Diablo-like (with its isometric perspective) artsy game would ever be huge.
 
Had to search for it as Near brought it up. I dont have Twitter so I had to manually search for it and found his recent tweet and explains why he did it vs his Discord post.

 
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Banjo64 said:
Is that not just an honest appraisal that they've made 2 critically acclaimed games and in hindsight probably would have made 20x the money if they didn't go down the Game Pass route?

If anything this has always been the ultimate evidence that the Game Pass model doesn't work for developers.
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well, isn't 'going down the game pass route' fundamentally a crap shoot all about opting for a fixed lump sum up front as opposed to waiting for the sales profit, which might be more or might be less than that lump sum, to gradually roll in? & isn't it voluntary? so I'd say that, in this instance, if you're gonna trash anyone or anything? it should be yourself...
 
semiconscious said:
well, isn't 'going down the game pass route' fundamentally a crap shoot all about opting for a fixed lump sum up front as opposed to waiting for the sales profit, which might be more or might be less than that lump sum, to gradually roll in? & isn't it voluntary? so I'd say that, in this instance, if you're gonna trash anyone or anything? it should be yourself...
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Well yes but that's the power dynamic if you understand - Microsoft get the better deal as they're the bigger fish. They aren't interested if they aren't getting a good deal.

Issues for smaller players in the market - getting a cash injection which is fair and proportionate.
 
near said:
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:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_tears_of_joy:
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Remember gamers. Always be weary of video game employees hyping up their products, going ape shit on social media or in this case..... trying to drum up extra sales with a false pretense. Watch your wallets and dont emotionally fall victim to grifters.

You know how game companies all work. They'll do and say thing for a buck.
 
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Apologies with the glazey disclaimer to start here but, I love Moon. I love Ori, I've bought it on three platforms. I'll buy it again if and when it comes to PS5. I was there day one with NRFTW and I think it's great so far. I also really like Thomas. I wish we had more people as passionate as he is about games, helming games.

But he's just gotta stop talking. Selfishly, I love it. I like the insight and I like his recent podcast appearances (especially Sacred Symbols). But it's just too much. Moon should speak through some sort of PR/community manager only. He can't say anything without some dildo like Jez Corden circling at this point. Any press NRFTW gets, it invariably becomes about him personally. The constant tweeting and bantering with people on Twitter, here, discord, whatever - only ever seems to do more harm than good.

That doesn't make it right, of course. But that's a separate conversation - it's just how it is. I only want the best for this studio and this game and none of this never ending publicity tour seems to be helping.
 
StreetsofBeige said:
Remember gamers. Always be weary of video game employees hyping up their products, going ape shit on social media or in this case..... trying to drum up extra sales with a false pretense. Watch your wallets and dont emotionally fall victim to grifters.

You know how game companies all work. They'll do and say thing for a buck.
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I'm more wary of Microsoft shills to be honest - trying to drum up false narratives contrary to reality. We've seen it play out time and time again on social media but the reality is Jez is a GCSE level journalist at best,.
 
StreetsofBeige said:
Remember gamers. Always be weary of video game employees hyping up their products, going ape shit on social media or in this case..... trying to drum up extra sales with a false pretense. Watch your wallets and dont emotionally fall victim to grifters.
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It's important to advocate for your product and connect with your current and prospective customers directly when you're independent. Mobilizing your audience to try to counteract a negative review spike that has since been addressed by patches is reasonable.
 
I actually agree with everything he's saying...I'd still recommend him getting a PR person/community manager (just not someone with crazy colored hair though and 12 piercings....)

Game does look interesting, just purchased on Steam and will leave a reasonable review once I've played enough.
 
thomasmahler thomasmahler FYI I saw this discord stuff on reddit and jacked the thread. I love the game obviously, and so far the reviews have been increasing, maybe even sales for all I know. And the realm thing sounds absolutely sick. It kind of reminds me, if I'm thinking of the same thing, of V Rising's system in letting you build faster/gain more resources, etc based on your world parameters. Hell, even focus free casting, anything could be a modifier that's easy to toggle on/off. I dunno, I can't wait to see what you all do with NRFTW next.
 
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Does MS still have the rights to their first couple of games? Maybe they should have tried harder to get that shit back so they could put it on PlayStation to make some extra scratch.

Also, just get the fucking game on consoles already. You could launch it at 40 bucks and probably get a lot of people to bite.
 
mrqs said:
Hm. They trashed GamePass by saying they didn't want to give away their game. Think that would have been a smart idea then.

Honestly, the game looks kind of cool but it doesn't really do anything for me. And I always felt their founders were douches. So, good luck I guess.

Edit:

Just saw his tweet 'clarifying' stuff, which is such a bad look. Like, his message on Discord is pretty clear. And people are still talking about how there was no review bombing. lol

Moon Studios was such a promise. What a disappointment.
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is the review bombing tied to Game Pass?
 
Banjo64 said:
Well yes but that's the power dynamic if you understand - Microsoft get the better deal as they're the bigger fish. They aren't interested if they aren't getting a good deal.

Issues for smaller players in the market - getting a cash injection which is fair and proportionate.
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well, yeah, of course. &, if, after negotiation, this isn't possible? well, i'm thinking you do what you'd've done pre-2017...
 
EviLore said:
It's important to advocate for your product and connect with your current and prospective customers directly when you're independent. Mobilizing your audience to try to counteract a negative review spike that has since been addressed by patches is reasonable.
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Thank you for saying this. I had something similar ready to go but just couldn't articulate it worth a damn.
 
EviLore said:
It's important to advocate for your product and connect with your current and prospective customers directly when you're independent. Mobilizing your audience to try to counteract a negative review spike that has since been addressed by patches is reasonable.
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I think in this video he explains how important positive reviews are and how critical it is to reach certain sales numbers to become "evergreen". ( thanks to Steam's recommendation algorithm)
 
EviLore said:
It's important to advocate for your product and connect with your current and prospective customers directly when you're independent. Mobilizing your audience to try to counteract a negative review spike that has since been addressed by patches is reasonable.
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Thanks Tyler!

I also didn't see an issue in asking people to leave a positive review IF they're actively playing and enjoying No Rest for the Wicked!

In general, I think the industry needs to adapt to how games have changed. It's a bit absurd that these Steam Reviews and Press Reviews stay up forever even though lots of games are constantly under active development and are being shaped by the developers and their communities all the time. What good is a negative review that highlights all the issues that have already been fixed? What good is a positive review if the game has become terrible? We've even seen publishers exploiting those things quite a lot recently by them not selling MTX on launch, so that it doesn't get mentioned in reviews, but adding that stuff after launch... and yet, those reviews just stay around forever, they never change, even if the product doesn't reflect any of that stuff anymore.

On top of that it's bewildering that you can literally buy a product, leave a negative review and then refund the product without your negative review going away. It should be absolutely clear that people will abuse that exploit. And I'd in general say that reviews need to be moderated. Nobody is helped by a positive or a negative review where the user typed in one letter (in our case '.').

And just to once again be clear with everybody here: We want to have the reputation that we're a studio that takes ALL FEEDBACK into account, constantly! We've chosen Early Access exactly because we love the idea of being able to perfect a product before we release it because we want all our games to become masterpieces. And the only way we'll ever get there is by listening to all users and carefully considering any and all concerns. I only have issues with reviews that were clearly posted in bad faith.
 
Ozriel said:
Why not take a break from the game and quickly port Ori 1&2 to PS4/PS5? Sell it as a complete edition for $30

Even selling 500k copies would provide enough money to then finish NRFTW.
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Microsoft owns the Ori IP so it would be their call to port the games. Having said that, it's a no brainer to me and I'm a bit surprised they haven't done so already, especially since they released it for the Switch a while back.
 
Never even heard of this game. Is it just PC?
If so seems very short sighted of the studio as the ori games sold much better on consoles than pcs.
 
AngelMuffin said:
Microsoft owns the Ori IP so it would be their call to port the games. Having said that, it's a no brainer to me and I'm a bit surprised they haven't done so already, especially since they released it for the Switch a while back.
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The Switch release happened while they were still working together. I feel like things got overly complicated once the went separate ways. MS would have to hire them again for new ports and afaik Moon is focusing 100% on Wicked now.

Personally I would love a Switch 2 upgrade. I just finished a replay of Blind Forrest on Steam but I would totally go in for another run on Will of the Wisps if they updated it for Switch 2.
 
I don't really see what the big deal is. thomasmahler thomasmahler is obviously just trying to support his own game, and the internet doesn't need to be interpreting his words in the worst intention possible. I've yet to try his product, but as an ARPG enjoyer, I'll get to it soon enough and post my feedback in a constructive way, whether it be positive or negative or both.

I'm not trying to give them a blank check or a free pass, but this incessant, overly critical approach to indie devs is what inevitably leads us to the kind of safe, sterile, and bland "made for everyone and made for no one" style of game that has been the source of such corporate mediocrity over the last decade. Let's focus on the gameplay.
 
Rentahamster said:
I don't really see what the big deal is. thomasmahler thomasmahler is obviously just trying to support his own game, and the internet doesn't need to be interpreting his words in the worst intention possible. I've yet to try his product, but as an ARPG enjoyer, I'll get to it soon enough and post my feedback in a constructive way, whether it be positive or negative or both.

I'm not trying to give them a blank check or a free pass, but this incessant, overly critical approach to indie devs is what inevitably leads us to the kind of safe, sterile, and bland "made for everyone and made for no one" style of game that has been the source of such corporate mediocrity over the last decade. Let's focus on the gameplay.
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Gamers who gave negative reviews arent hating the game due to the graphic style or it's different than Ori. Everyone knows it's a different kind of game. Problem is the recent patch messed things up so gamers ragged on it. So the dev didnt like the negative comments.

Asking gamers for support is one thing. Asking gamers to boost the score so the company can get sales because there are close to closing shop, but turns out that was a lie is another. Dev did a Twitter rant after saying his Discord tweet for reviews and sales was his way of being edgy back at all the flak he got over the years. And their financial situation is actually fine.

Really no different than someone asking for money for medical bills. But turns out they arent sick or have plenty of money to cover it themselves anyway. Then does a follow up post after getting donations saying he was joking.
 
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EviLore said:
It's important to advocate for your product and connect with your current and prospective customers directly when you're independent. Mobilizing your audience to try to counteract a negative review spike that has since been addressed by patches is reasonable.
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The problems were probably solved quickly because of the negative reviews that pointed them out.

And there is a difference between "leave a review if you liked the game" and "leave a positive review if you liked the game, otherwise we won't be around for long to finish the game". This is a very strange way to "mobilize" their audience. Oh, and the criticisms weren't review bombs as he says in the first print of the topic.

He can give several explanations, say that the statements were taken out of context, discuss on Twitter and forums with users and journalists, but it's hard to even trust the game's reviews after this "positive review boost" from the developer, seeing as the image was posted here in the thread, the spike in positive reviews is completely artificial.

Anyway, I'm just going to wait for this whole drama to blow over. I want to see what the finished game will actually look like, hopefully sooner rather than later, because if they're so worried, the hype is only going to keep fading,
 
StreetsofBeige said:
Gamers who gave negative reviews arent hating the game due to the graphic style or it's different than Ori. Everyone knows it's a different kind of game. Problem is the recent patch messed things up so gamers ragged on it. So the dev didnt like the negative comments.

Asking gamers for support is one thing. Asking gamers to boost the score so the company can get sales because there are close to closing shop, but turns out that was a lie is another. Dev did a Twitter rant after saying his Discord tweet for reviews and sales was his way of being edgy back at all the flak he got over the years. And their financial situation is actually fine.

Really no different than someone asking for money for medical bills. But turns out they arent sick or have plenty of money to cover it themselves anyway. Then does a follow up post after getting donations saying he was joking.
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This is why I made a distinction between gameplay related feedback and non-gameplay related feedback.
 
near said:
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:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_tears_of_joy:
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The problem with Thomas is that he has a big mouth and it's too vocal in social media about politics and such. This obviously is going to cause anyone to make enemies and people who hates you just because of the way you think, specially if you are not on the left.

So I think that he should quit social media and stop these types of topics so people don't do review bombing to their games

In fact I think the majority of developers should do that. Social media ia very toxic due to the nature of anonymity

Just stay away and do your damn job, you ain't charging the world anyway for writing your political views in Twitter
 
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near said:
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:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_tears_of_joy:
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You have to a complete moron to get owned by Jez Corden of all people.

Coincidentally I was intrigued by the game and almost got it two days ago. This whole mess makes me think any reviews of any future patches or content updates are not to be trusted.

His entire spiel about being Take Two's ugly step child is something else too (especially considering that they praised the game publicly).

Who the fuck pays many millions to buy an unproven IP because they DON'T want a big publisher in their corner?
 
The main issue here is how to address review bombing correctly, really. What can Steam, and other platforms, do to avoid the negative impact of such reviews ?

For Steam, there are definitely solutions. You know if the guy asked for a refund and you know how much time he played. Without removing such reviews, offering a filter to users to exclude them can't be that complicated.

A checkbox to "Remove refunded product reviews" and a field to choose "Only people that played X hours" and X is a free value.
 
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Eh... the market will decide.

it''s a shame to see talent get closed down, but if it's not some big evil publisher doing so and rather just that gamers aren't buying the games then what more can we do 🤷‍♂️.

Maybe he should just slap the word Extraction on the title somewhere and add silly skins of weed and some C-Tier music artist that the kids go all crazy over.
 
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