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[IntentionalPun]

No but I don't particularly care.

 

[near]

I would view this more like a patent issue (20 year expiration, at least in the US) rather than a creative property (like a book or song, currently an obnoxious 95 years after the death of the creator or somesuch) as video games are, IMHO, more of a commercial product than a creative one. Particularly when the issue discussed is EMULATION of the video game, virtually intact from how it played originally, rather than taking characters or story and making a new game riding on the fame of the original (making Halo games with a new engine but utilizing the lore and visuals, for example).

If the rights holder can't be arsed to present a reasonable modern way to play old games, then let the community do it (basically for free). Of course a commercially sold version should go through the licensing process, but for home use I think it's perfectly reasonable and free of moral guilt.

I'm just describing the legal reality of this. Stopping sales doesn't forfeit ownership or grant others the right to take the game. You can make personal justifications, but not a legal or logical one for doing so.

 

[Three]

Tough question. I would say no because what if they want to bring it back at some point? Would you then go and delete that pirated copy? Many wouldn't. I think the person who created it should get to choose what happens with it "Hey we are delisting our creation you can freely share it". Otherwise no right to that copy is given.

 

[jason10mm]

I'm just describing the legal reality of this. Stopping sales doesn't forfeit ownership or grant others the right to take the game. You can make personal justifications, but not a legal or logical one for doing so.

Thats why i referenced patents (and public domain creative license). There ARE legal ways to reproduce something someone once created or sold. I'm not sure where that is for video games (is pong code in the public domain and can I use if however I want?) compared to drug manufacturing or book rights, but there ARE legal options, eventually.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

YES!

 

[CrimsonTide]

Tough question. I would say no because what if they want to bring it back at some point? Would you then go and delete that pirated copy? Many wouldn't. I think the person who created it should get to choose what happens with it "Hey we are delisting our creation you can freely share it". Otherwise no right to that copy is given.

Many older games are up in limbo, owned by once defunct companies who's been sold and traded a dozen time over 35 years.

Will anyone remake or remaster Captain Planet on NES? course not. Who even owns it at this point? I say go for it, it's not taking money from anyone. If someone did release it, which they won't, I would support it.

 

[Efren is G.O.A.T.]

Absolutely! If you want me to buy it....then sell it to me.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

If an artist would pull his CD from store shelves you'd still consider it theft to just take it from some warehouse where the leftovers are stored. The mere fact of missing availability on the market doesn't somehow magically make it not theft when you steal it.

If you physically steal a CD then you have taken it away from the rightful owner. That is a ridiculous comparison.

 

[near]

Thats why i referenced patents (and public domain creative license). There ARE legal ways to reproduce something someone once created or sold. I'm not sure where that is for video games (is pong code in the public domain and can I use if however I want?) compared to drug manufacturing or book rights, but there ARE legal options, eventually.

Sure, eventually something might become public domain, but patents expiring or copyrights lapsing in the future doesn't grant anyone the right take or reproduce a game today.

 

[winjer]

After a decade o so, all software should be free to use. Including games.

 

[rodrigolfp]

If I close my store because I can't or simply choose not to keep selling, and someone hands you a key to the back door, does that give you the right to walk in and take whatever you want?

Is anyone entering some publisher/dev store and taking their property??

 

[Lucifers Beard]

If it's OK or not, I'm doing it. If a game is no longer available for me to purchase legitimately then I'll find it elsewhere.

I did this recently with Wolfenstein 2009. I've played it before on console and now I want to pay to play the game on PC. However, it's not available anywhere. If they decide the remaster or re-release it then I'll be there day one.

Oh and Wolfenstein 2009 is a fucking brilliant single player shooter, I would like to see this get some love from Nightdive at some point.

 

[near]

Is anyone entering some publisher/dev store and taking their property??

You misunderstood the analogy literally. The store would represent ownership and the key being an unauthorised copy. Accessing it without permission. My point is that stopping sales doesn't give the public a legal right to take or use someone else's property.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Are you a baby? Pirate whatever the fuck you want, you're a grown ass man.

 

[jason10mm]

Sure, eventually something might become public domain, but patents expiring or copyrights lapsing in the future doesn't grant anyone the right take or reproduce a game today.

Seems like video games are treated more like creative property, at least in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_video_games

A copyright holder has to choose in which category they would copyright their video game with an attorney in the US, making it almost impossible as a consumer to know what kind of copyright actually applies to the video game.

The source code of a game can be considered a literary work, thus copyrightable. The game itself can be considered an audiovisual work.

It also depends of what in a video game. Is it a part made by the company? Then it falls under the copyright of a corporation for an audiovisual work, but if it's a part by players from the game which they added to it (like player made contributions to Minecraft or a MOD), then the copyright resides to the player since they are not considered employees of the company.

The earliest video game Tennis for Two from 1958 was not made by a company, but by William Higinbotham who died in 1994. This means that it will enter the public domain in 2064 (so 40 years from now, when we are old).

Pong was released by Atari in 1972, and since it's a company released work it would go into the public domain 95 years from its publication, which is 2067, so there isn't much difference with the earliest video game.


********************
So yes, LEGALLY it's probably wrong to pirate an old game. But MORALLY I think it is acceptable if there is no viable other option. Money isn't (usually) changing hands, it's for personal use, and the rights holder isn't actively using it anyway. It's, IMHO, more like hand copying a long out of print book from a library to read at home than stealing something from a store. I do try to buy a current version of, say, an arcade game (there are some out there) but vastly prefer to play on my mame cab with a proper joystick and buttons, versus a controller. So if I do have a current version of Joust on xbox, for example, is it still illegal to download the rom to emulate it on a different control system? Is it MORALLY wrong to do so?

 

[lughnasadh123]

On the face of the question, if you have to illegally do something then no, it's not ok.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

But in that scenario you're breaking into a place and physically taking property that doesn't belong to you.

Downloading a ROM of Haunting Ground isn't taking anything away from Capcom because its not for sale anywhere. Capcom doesn't see a dime when you buy a copy on ebay for $200.

The premise of OP wasn't tied to the whole physical vs digital goods discussion, though. This thread would'nt exist without the central premise of these goods no longer being sold.

 

[U n i o n 0015]

1000% yes.

 

[Three]

If you physically steal a CD then you have taken it away from the rightful owner. That is a ridiculous comparison.

If you physically steal a CD that was leftover from pulled stock you've only stolen a piece of plastic worth less than 10pence. It's obviously the content you're stealing who has a rightful owner which isn't you. This would be like me downloading your photos from your phone and saying hey I'm not stealing anything because there is nothing physical there. It's up to the person who owns that content whether they want to share it freely or not.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

If you physically steal a CD that was leftover from pulled stock you've only stolen a piece of plastic worth less than 10pence. It's obviously the content you're stealing who has a rightful owner which isn't you. This would be like me downloading your photos from your phone and saying hey I'm not stealing anything because there is nothing physical there. It's up to the person who owns that content whether they want to share it freely or not.

So now you're comparing it to downloading someone's private photos from their phone? Come on dude that is even more ridiculous.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

FED!!! Not falling for it.

 

[Hudo]

Yes.

 

[Three]

So now you're comparing it to downloading someone's private photos from their phone? Come on dude that is even more ridiculous.

Yeah because I'm making an analogy to show from your perspective of ownership that just because something doesn't have a physical form doesn't mean content cannot be stolen. The CD itself is worthless.

 

[SomeNorseGuy]

Also I "pirate" games I have bought dozens of times

Example: SMB3
Owned it on every nintendo system that ever had it and bought it on VC for Wii, Wii U etc

So yeah I will throw it on my little retro handhelds and feel fine on that

I do the same. I've already given you north of $120, now I'm going to enjoy my game on whatever platform I want. As long as it's just a port/re-release. Meaty remakes is another story IMO.

But I also buy re-releases/remakes/remasters/re-whateverthefuck of a pirated game I've previously enjoyed, (at a reasonabel price ofc). Recently I bought Atlus's Raidou remake even if I beat it on my retro machine a couple of years ago.

Got to keep that karma in balance.

 

[Aenima]

Yarr!

 

[JohnnyPhats]

If a bear shits in the woods and I pirate a game...who's gonna know?

 

[Fess]

At least in the past there was a strict no-piracy rule on this board. For emulation it was an unspoken rule that you rip your own ROM files from your own physical games. Or avoid talking about how you acquired the files…

Going by this thread piracy would be okay as long as the games are no longer for sale as new games. Means anything from old 80s arcade games to like PS3 can be pirated. Unless there is a collection being sold. Right?

 

[CrimsonTide]

I do the same. I've already given you north of $120, now I'm going to enjoy my game on whatever platform I want. As long as it's just a port/re-release. Meaty remakes is another story IMO.

But I also buy re-releases/remakes/remasters/re-whateverthefuck of a pirated game I've previously enjoyed, (at a reasonabel price ofc). Recently I bought Atlus's Raidou remake even if I beat it on my retro machine a couple of years ago.

Got to keep that karma in balance.

I do the same for sure, bought so many remakes and remasters lol phew

 

[jason10mm]

At least in the past there was a strict no-piracy rule on this board. For emulation it was an unspoken rule that you rip your own ROM files from your own physical games. Or avoid talking about how you acquired the files…

Going by this thread piracy would be okay as long as the games are no longer for sale as new games. Means anything from old 80s arcade games to like PS3 can be pirated. Unless there is a collection being sold. Right?

I feel like this discussion is pretty far removed from pirating any kind of modern game. It would be like discussing pirating amiga 500 games back in 2010, versus currently produced PC games. And there are no specifics, its a philosophical discussion. And finally, the pretty long standing presence of certain emulators does show that there is a generalized acceptance, or at least tolerance, of certain classes of almost archival software within the industry. And with the re-emergence of publisher fronted emulators, to the point of re-issuing native controllers like with Nintendo, the conversation is more relevant since there can be legal alternatives for some categories of old software.

 

[poppabk]

Without it we would have pretty much lost an entire generation of arcade games and thousands of games would have been lost or locked to old hardware that was depleting in availability.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

How does one buy a game boy game new where nintendo would benefit nowadays?

 

[CrimsonTide]

How does one buy a game boy game new where nintendo would benefit nowadays?

Theres a handful of games on NSO

 

[jason10mm]

How does one buy a game boy game new where nintendo would benefit nowadays?

There are 'new' hardware...reproductions? which I would assume are licensed from Nintendo, or maybe the physical hardware is off patent now? Anyway, they can use original game cartridges, though I doubt nintendo is selling any of them anymore. But they keep interest up in those older games which can then feed subs to Nintendos own emulator service (which likely uses improvements made by the 'fan community'). The key, IMHO, to defeating piracy of stuff like this is to make an alternative that isn't too much $$$ and is more CONVIENENT. I think a lot of the reasons why the emulators are kinda clunky is by design, to make it hard for casual lay people to engage in them. Though the usb drives and cartridges full of games sold on amazon belies that assumption as those are pretty plug n' play.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

Theres a handful of games on NSO

A handful...

Now you want to play something that is there? Seek it out on ebay so someone that owns it can make the money or...?

I say this as a guy recently getting into retro handhelds.

 

[CrimsonTide]

A handful...

Now you want to play something that is there? Seek it out on ebay so someone that owns it can make the money or...?

I say this as a guy recently getting into retro handhelds.

Are you interested in the games on NSO and don't have a switch?

 

[JohnnyPhats]

There are 'new' hardware...reproductions? which I would assume are licensed from Nintendo, or maybe the physical hardware is off patent now? Anyway, they can use original game cartridges, though I doubt nintendo is selling any of them anymore. But they keep interest up in those older games which can then feed subs to Nintendos own emulator service (which likely uses improvements made by the 'fan community'). The key, IMHO, to defeating piracy of stuff like this is to make an alternative that isn't too much $$$ and is more CONVIENENT. I think a lot of the reasons why the emulators are kinda clunky is by design, to make it hard for casual lay people to engage in them. Though the usb drives and cartridges full of games sold on amazon belies that assumption as those are pretty plug n' play.

I have a few Anbernic devices and love them.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

Are you interested in the games on NSO and don't have a switch?

I have a Switch. Actually multiple Switches in this house and have NSO w/ expansion

 

[CrimsonTide]

I have a Switch. Actually multiple Switches in this house and have NSO w/ expansion

Oh, well you are good then. If they don't offer a game to "borrow" on NSO, download it to your retro handheld. I would not feel bad about that at all. Cause you can't BUY gameboy games on Switch.

 

[poppabk]

There are 'new' hardware...reproductions? which I would assume are licensed from Nintendo, or maybe the physical hardware is off patent now? Anyway, they can use original game cartridges, though I doubt nintendo is selling any of them anymore. But they keep interest up in those older games which can then feed subs to Nintendos own emulator service (which likely uses improvements made by the 'fan community'). The key, IMHO, to defeating piracy of stuff like this is to make an alternative that isn't too much $$$ and is more CONVIENENT. I think a lot of the reasons why the emulators are kinda clunky is by design, to make it hard for casual lay people to engage in them. Though the usb drives and cartridges full of games sold on amazon belies that assumption as those are pretty plug n' play.

I have Final Fight in every form imaginable through emulation but was quite happy to buy the Capcom collection which includes it. I think a lot of people are willing to buy even emulated titles when available but 90% of stuff isn't and likely never will be .

 

[jason10mm]

I have a few Anbernic devices and love them.

Yeah, it is a fun form factor and better than smart phone emulation in a lot of ways. Even more so for the games that really meshed with the control scheme, especially with the DS.

I'd be curious if modretro, or more likely the wave of cheap chinese devices, does fuel a big resurgence of orphan software and does start to revive legal interest, especially from Nintendo. As the nostalgia window shifts from the 80's/early 90's to the 00's (where I feel we have 25 years of time and culture kinda stagnant and compressed) if that will also draw the ire of publishers funding all these remakes.

 

[pqueue]

no. it is not moral however you want to try to redefine and make yourself feel better.

you have no right to something because it is unavailable for purchase.

just admit it is theft, and you are okay with that and move on.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

Oh, well you are good then. If they don't offer a game to "borrow" on NSO, download it to your retro handheld. I would not feel bad about that at all. Cause you can't BUY gameboy games on Switch.

And this is where I am and why I am guilt free about it. I'm not going to give money to some swarthy neck beard for a legit copy. I am damn near 50 and have SPENT on this stuff.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

Yeah, it is a fun form factor and better than smart phone emulation in a lot of ways. Even more so for the games that really meshed with the control scheme, especially with the DS.

I'd be curious if modretro, or more likely the wave of cheap chinese devices, does fuel a big resurgence of orphan software and does start to revive legal interest, especially from Nintendo. As the nostalgia window shifts from the 80's/early 90's to the 00's (where I feel we have 25 years of time and culture kinda stagnant and compressed) if that will also draw the ire of publishers funding all these remakes.

I would be all over the Chromatic if it had a save state feature. My local GS has them in stock, tempted to buy one and hope for the update.

 

[CrimsonTide]

And this is where I am and why I am guilt free about it. I'm not going to give money to some swarthy neck beard for a legit copy. I am damn near 50 and have SPENT on this stuff.

Yeah, buying 2nd hand on that benefits no one except the high priced reseller lol

 

[JohnnyPhats]

no. it is not moral however you want to try to redefine and make yourself feel better.

you have no right to something because it is unavailable for purchase.

just admit it is theft, and you are okay with that and move on.

I am just fine with it. Not giving a fuck is a powerful way to bring about peace of mind.

 

[sodstall]

Yes. If you abandon software, you just dont care.

 

[Fess]

I feel like this discussion is pretty far removed from pirating any kind of modern game. It would be like discussing pirating amiga 500 games back in 2010, versus currently produced PC games. And there are no specifics, its a philosophical discussion. And finally, the pretty long standing presence of certain emulators does show that there is a generalized acceptance, or at least tolerance, of certain classes of almost archival software within the industry. And with the re-emergence of publisher fronted emulators, to the point of re-issuing native controllers like with Nintendo, the conversation is more relevant since there can be legal alternatives for some categories of old software.

The word "delisted" to me signals that we're talking about a fairly new game, removed from storefronts because of expired licenses.
Like Forza Horizon 4 which was delisted in 2024.

I'm not familiar with the word "discontinued" in this space. Is that simply not mass produced anymore? Seems like that filter would result in a huge number of games.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Yeah because I'm making an analogy to show from your perspective of ownership that just because something doesn't have a physical form doesn't mean content cannot be stolen. The CD itself is worthless.

Copyright infringement is not the same thing as theft. "But what if the value of the thing you steal is really small?" Uhh it's still theft.

Anyway we are talking about abandonware. Software that was commercially available but not anymore, because it's out of print or for some dead platform or whatever. You didn't need to muddy the waters by comparing it to copying someone's personal private data off their phone. Come on. Ethically those are completely different things.

 

[grvg]

If I close my store because I can't or simply choose not to keep selling, and someone hands you a key to the back door, does that give you the right to walk in and take whatever you want?

No it does not, but a physical location with physical products that are limited in quantity is different than digital data which can be infinitely reproduced at no loss to the original.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

Devil's advocate position:

Any alternative to official copies infringes upon and undermines copyrights (and is likely to violate the existing license terms, though this will vary on a case-by-case basis). Additionally, emulated variants disrupt a nascent market that may or may not be subject to strategic priming to increase profitability; deprivation, while unpopular among consumers, is within the discretion of rights holders.