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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

Speaking of CES, mormonstories.org just posted a huge audio interview with John and Brook McLay. John was a teacher in CES for fourteen years, and they just resigned from the church this last year. It's a fascinating, and heart wrenching interview in a lot of ways. I highly recommend that everyone -- Mormon, ex-Mormon, non-Mormon -- listen to it.

Somebody's been spending time on a certain forum. ;)

Are you referring to RFM? TBM isn't isolated to really any of the online Mormon or post/ex-Mormon communities...maybe it originated there, but I've seen it used in pretty much every online Mormon-related community these days.
 

ronito

Member
Speaking of CES, mormonstories.org just posted a huge audio interview with John and Brook McLay. John was a teacher in CES for fourteen years, and they just resigned from the church this last year. It's a fascinating, and heart wrenching interview in a lot of ways. I highly recommend that everyone -- Mormon, ex-Mormon, non-Mormon -- listen to it.



Are you referring to RFM? TBM isn't isolated to really any of the online Mormon or post/ex-Mormon communities...maybe it originated there, but I've seen it used in pretty much every online Mormon-related community these days.

Yeah, that McLay stuff was really interesting/difficult to watch.

What's RFM?

Hito, what forum? TBM is something I've heard for a while now even in just speaking to mormons.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Huh, shows what I know. I had heard of the associated quote for it, but I never saw the acronym "TBM" actually used as a differentiating term before I read stuff from there.

Nevermind then!
 

ronito

Member
LDS church made the news again today. This time yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/mormonisms-lethal-culture-sexual-dysfunction-224800095.html
COMMENTARY | I sat in my Mormon bishop's office, red-faced and silent. I was humiliated and scared; humiliated that I'd told this strange adult such personal things, and scared that he would follow through with his threat of church discipline. Scared that I wouldn't be able to go on a mission and that everyone would know what a failure I was.

My crime? As an 18-year-old adult, I had just confessed that I masturbated. A few years later, after being publicly shamed for my sins, I was still unable to break my "addiction" and came very close to killing myself.

I wasn't alone

In 1982, Mormon Kip Eliason killed himself at the age of 16 because of "the immense feeling of self-hatred" he had, as a result of not being able to comply with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' teachings regarding masturbation. Mormon youth of both genders are taught that it is a sin, and told to confess their sexual sins to their adult male bishops, in one-on-one interviews behind closed doors. Church discipline is not usually prescribed for the sin of masturbation, but bishops are given wide latitude to act as they feel the Spirit dictates.

Mormon youth continue to kill themselves for what they are told are sexual sins, including homosexual attraction. Stuart Matis, a gay Mormon, shot himself to death on the steps of a Mormon meetinghouse in 2000. And according to the LDS church-owned Deseret News, "Utah leads the nation in suicides among men aged 15 to 24," and has the 11th highest suicide rate in the nation among all age groups as of 2006.

It's not just the teenagers, either

Utah also leads the nation in paid Internet pornography use. Mormon church leaders preach guilt and shame to male members, teaching them and their wives that even casual pornography use is a sign of unfaithfulness and will lead to addiction. Because of this, "addiction recovery" is a major industry in Utah, with banner ads across Mormon-themed magazines like LDS Living.

Mormon women aren't spared the dysfunction: 1 in 5 women in Utah are taking prescription antidepressants. The Mormon church teaches that happiness comes from obeying God's commandments as revealed by his chosen church leaders, so appearing to be unhappy can be interpreted as a sign of personal failings.

Speaking of keeping up appearances, according to Beauty Redefined, residents of Salt Lake City in Utah spend ten times the average amount spent in cities of comparable size on "cosmetics, skin care and hair products". Salt Lake residents "seek info on breast implants 74% more often than the national average," and the city has more plastic surgeons per capita than even New York City and Los Angeles.

It's not all bad news

Some Mormons, like LDS actor Kori Swenson, are beginning to see the suicides as a tragedy, and are calling on LDS church leaders to "bring them in from the plains"; that is, to acknowledge a crisis is happening and to respond appropriately. And in the "Bloggernacle," or Mormon blogosphere, members are starting to ask "what the purpose of the Law of Chastity is."

The Mormon church's top leadership, however, has yet to respond to any petitions or requests for apologies, including those of the group Swenson is affiliated with, the Foundation for Reconciliation.
Frankly, I'm sure that most practicing mormons would consider me very "Anti- mormon" though I certainly wouldn't. But even I think this is a crappy article.

I mean what's the point? Yeah there's tons of sexual dysfunction in a religion that actually pays attention to sins (we're not all baptists that can do whatever they want). And yeah there's a lot of plastic surgery. But what's that got to do with masturbation?

I think there's a needed dialogue that needs to be had about the church and sexual dysfunction but this is a terrible way to do it. Good going Yahoo.
 

ronito

Member
Another day another news story about Mitt Romney and the church. But this one is actually interesting.

http://news.yahoo.com/mitt-romney-sent-millions-mormon-church-193106008--abc-news.html
Underscoring the prominent, if little discussed role that Mitt Romney played as a Mormon leader, the private equity giant once run by the GOP presidential frontrunner carved his church a slice of several of its most lucrative business deals, securities records show, providing it with millions of dollars worth of stock in some of Bain Capital's most well-known holdings.

Romney has always been a major donor to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which requires that members "tithe," or give 10 percent of their income to the church. His family charity, called the Tyler Foundation, has given more than $4 million to the church in the past five years, including $1.8 million in 2008 and $600,000 in 2009. But because Romney, whose fortune has been estimated at $250 million, has never released his personal tax returns, the full extent of his giving has never been public.

Newly uncovered stock contributions made during Romney's Bain days suggest there is another dimension to Romney's support for the church -- one that could involve millions more than has been previously disclosed.

As part of just one Bain transaction in 2008, involving its investment in Burger King Holdings, filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission reveal that an unnamed Bain partner donated 65,326 shares of Burger King stock to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, holdings then worth nearly $1.9 million. And there were numerous others, giving the church a stake in other Bain properties, such as Domino's Pizza, the electronics manufacturer DDi, the phosphates company Innophos Holdings, and Marquee Holdings, the parent to AMC Theaters.

The Republican presidential candidate's campaign staff confirmed that some of the stock transactions were at Romney's direction, but they would not say which ones.

"Mitt Romney has publicly stated that he regularly tithes to his church," said Andrea Saul, a Romney campaign spokeswoman, when asked about the Bain contributions. "Some of those church contributions have come through the Tyler Foundation. Others have been donations of stock through Bain. Any shares donated by Mitt Romney are personal shares owned by him."

Saul also noted that not all the shares that appear on Bain securities filings can be attributed to Romney, "as there are other Mormon members of the firm who may also have been making donations to the church of personal shares owned by them."


Questions about Romney's faith have remained largely subdued during the 2012 campaign. Many believe he helped tame the issue during his previous campaign with a December 2007 speech at the George Bush Presidential Library in College Station, Texas, during which he declared that his church would not dictate his actions in the White House, if he was to become President.

"I do not define my candidacy by my religion," Romney said. "A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith."

Romney said that Mormon church authority is limited to the province of church affairs, "and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."

The Mormon church is distinct from many other American denominations in what it asks from adherents in money, time and commitment -- and not just because it asks young Mormon males to spend two years proselytizing for the faith as missionaries, said Jan Shipps, a religion professor at Indiana University-Purdue University in Indianapolis, and one of the preeminent non-Mormon authorities on the church.

Romney has spoken about the 30 months he spent in France as a missionary, but his role within the church as an adult is largely unexplored. Shipps said Romney has held several significant posts within church leadership, including bishop and "stake" president, a leadership post that covers a sizeable geographic area and requires a significant commitment of time.

Beyond that, Romney appears to have lived up to rigid financial requirements within the church that asks parishioners to contribute 10 percent of their annual earnings.

"People choose their own way of deciding how to tithe," Shipps said. "I know friends who are lawyers who take 10 percent out of their fee. In the 19th century, they would take corn, or wheat. It's up to the person."

Stock contributions, negotiated during his high-wheeling deals while at the helm of Bain Capital, would not be unexpected, she said.

Bain officials said it is common in public offerings, whether in Silicon Valley, on Wall Street, or in private equity, for participants to carve out shares to be donated to a favored charitable cause.

Securities records show that Romney found ways to help include the church in some of the companies most lucrative deals, just as other executives at the firm found ways to generate support for their favored charities. Among the companies named on securities filings as "Bain charitable institution donees" were the Combined Jewish Philanthropies of Greater Boston, The Boston Foundation Inc., Fidelity Investments Charitable Gift Fund, and family foundations run by several top Bain executives.

In some cases the filings are vague about the way stocks are apportioned to the different recipients. In others, such as the 2000 stock sale involving DDi Corporation, the records show the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints held 27,016 shares, worth $754,827 at the time of the sale. In a 2008 stock sale involving Innophos Holdings, the church's 50,301 shares were worth nearly $1.4 million. SEC filings for Marquee Holdings note that "certain members and other employees of Bain and its affiliates may make a contribution of shares to one or more charities prior to this offering, including … The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Romney's own family nonprofit, The Tyler Charitable Foundation, was also cut into numerous Bain deals. The nonprofit, run by Bradford Malt -- the Romney personal attorney who oversees all of the candidate's financial holdings -- passed those stock earnings along to a variety of other charities, including the church.

So I just find this really interesting. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Romney can pay his tithing by giving the church stock. But still it is interesting to see how the 1% pay their tithe. 10% discount? Man, wish I could've done that. Sorta seems a cop out though, usually you give other clients 10% discounts too. What I find really interesting the deals where the stock ownership is sorta blurry. Can a company that's mainly owned by mormons give the church stock as tithe? Is that a good thing? I've seen farmers pay tithe by giving their crop to the church so I've seen unconventional tithe paying. But this is sorta new to me.
 

Barrett2

Member
It is not, and should not, be our role to manufacture a crisis of faith on someone else’s behalf. I’d object to it at a youth conference; I see no reason to let it slide in Gospel Doctrine. Your role in Church Education is to invite the spirit. That’s about it.

Just got around to reading that CES article you posted, Ronito.

I think the above quoted section basically answers their own question. If you aren't even willing to deliver something resembling reality in teaching church history to teenagers who are at the age to attend Youth Conference, then what's the point? By that time they have accepted a fantasy, Disney-like narrative, and backpedaling from that will cause the same issues of alarm and shock that they had been lied to their entire lives.
 

ronito

Member
Just got around to reading that CES article you posted, Ronito.

I think the above quoted section basically answers their own question. If you aren't even willing to deliver something resembling reality in teaching church history to teenagers who are at the age to attend Youth Conference, then what's the point? By that time they have accepted a fantasy, Disney-like narrative, and backpedaling from that will cause the same issues of alarm and shock that they had been lied to their entire lives.

I dunno if I agree.
I can see the point. But in this day and age with the internet right there? It's not like the 80s or 90s where you could reasonably assume that if people ever heard about church history they could knock it away as anti-mormon heresy. Things are quickly accessible along with their source material. I can see that yeah, if you do tell them upfront a lot of people will freak and leave. But then if you don't tell them at some point they're going to find out and then not only will they freak they'll feel that they were lied to. There's gotta be a middle ground.
 

Barrett2

Member
I dunno if I agree.
I can see the point. But in this day and age with the internet right there? It's not like the 80s or 90s where you could reasonably assume that if people ever heard about church history they could knock it away as anti-mormon heresy. Things are quickly accessible along with their source material. I can see that yeah, if you do tell them upfront a lot of people will freak and leave. But then if you don't tell them at some point they're going to find out and then not only will they freak they'll feel that they were lied to. There's gotta be a middle ground.

Sometimes I wonder why they even bother to keep rolling out the same Disney-esque history to members when the internet exists.

But, I guess cognitive dissonance is a weird thing.
 

Yoritomo

Member
LDS church made the news again today. This time yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/mormonisms-lethal-culture-sexual-dysfunction-224800095.html

Frankly, I'm sure that most practicing mormons would consider me very "Anti- mormon" though I certainly wouldn't. But even I think this is a crappy article.

I mean what's the point? Yeah there's tons of sexual dysfunction in a religion that actually pays attention to sins (we're not all baptists that can do whatever they want). And yeah there's a lot of plastic surgery. But what's that got to do with masturbation?

I think there's a needed dialogue that needs to be had about the church and sexual dysfunction but this is a terrible way to do it. Good going Yahoo.

Any woman who has 7 kids and breastfed them all deserves plastic surgery if she can afford it.
 

ronito

Member
It's sorta weird. Romney comes for a Mormon dynasty so a lot of people know him or are somehow related or have a friend who is a friend. These people tend to be all for him.

Then there are the people that view it as a sign of the times that there will be a mormon president to guide us in a time of great tribulation (these tend to be older people)

Then there are the people that are offput by Romney's fickleness.
 
My mormon friends like paul, paul, and obama.
KuGsj.gif


Well I hope they at least have some pride of Romney winning the nomination. It certainly is a triumph for a faith that has had a long struggle in the country.
 

ronito

Member
KuGsj.gif


Well I hope they at least have some pride of Romney winning the nomination. It certainly is a triumph for a faith that has had a long struggle in the country.

I heard an old person say that the church's "And I'm a mormon" marketing campaign was done because the church knew that Romney was going to run so they wanted to pave the way for him.
 
KuGsj.gif


Well I hope they at least have some pride of Romney winning the nomination. It certainly is a triumph for a faith that has had a long struggle in the country.

They think it's cool and all, but they are also under 30, and don't have this need for people to love and accept them, possibly because being mormon isn't as odd these days for them. Dunno
 

ronito

Member
Reuters did a great article today on what law_blob and I have been talking about lately.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120130
(Reuters) - A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are "leaving in droves?" a woman asked.

"We are aware," said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. "And I'm speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care," he said.

"My own daughter," he then added, "has come to me and said, 'Dad, why didn't you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?'" For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, "Everything's out there for them to consume if they want to Google it." The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are "severely outdated."

These are tumultuous times for the faith founded by Joseph Smith in 1830, and the rumbling began even before church member Mitt Romney's presidential bid put the Latter-Day Saints in the spotlight.

Jensen, the church's official historian, would not provide any figures on the rate of defections, but he told Reuters that attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years, reflecting greater secularization of society. Many religions have been suffering similarly, he noted, arguing that Mormonism has never been more vibrant.

"I think we are at a time of challenge, but it isn't apocalyptic," he said.

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide -- optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.

In Africa and Latin America, however, Jensen said that interest in the LDS was so strong that the church has cut back baptisms in order to better care for new members.

THE RESCUE

With defections rising, the church has launched a program to staunch its losses. The head of the church, President Thomas Monson, who is considered a living prophet, has called the campaign "The Rescue" and made it his signature initiative, according to Jensen. The effort includes a new package of materials for pastors and for teaching Mormon youth that address some of the more sensitive aspects of church doctrine. "If they are not revolutionary, they are at least going to be a breath of fresh air across the church," Jensen told the Utah class.

All this comes as the public profile of America's Mormons had been raised by two pop-culture hits: the recent TV series "Big Love" and the current Broadway hit, "The Book of Mormon." The attention, says church spokesman Michael Purdy, is a "double-edged sword."

It has been an opportunity to educate the public about Mormonism and fight misconceptions. For example, the "I am a Mormon" ad campaign, which features stereotype-busting Mormons who are black or single parents, helped boost chat sessions on the church's website to more than a million in the last 12 months.

The curious find a family-focused church with socially conservative values that teaches Christian principles and believes Christ appeared to founder Joseph Smith in America, where Smith established the new religion.

Church members are satisfied with their lives, content with their communities, strongly see themselves as Christian and believe acceptance of Mormons is increasing, a recent Pew Research poll of people who describe themselves as Mormon found.

But on Broadway, the church's gospel and missionary zeal are mocked. And the Web has intensified debate over the truth of the history the church teaches.

Not since a famous troublespot in Mormon history, the 1837 failure of a church bank in Kirtland, Ohio, have so many left the church, Jensen said.

"Maybe since Kirtland, we've never had a period of - I'll call it apostasy, like we're having now," he told the group in Logan.


Then he outlined how the church was using the technologies that had loosened its grip on the flock to reverse this trend.

"The church has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors," he said. Among other steps, it has hired an expert in search-engine optimization to raise the profile of the church's own views in a web search.

Researchers note a rising tide of questions from church members about the gospel according to Joseph Smith's The Book of Mormon, the best known of the Latter-day Saints' scriptures. Over the years, church literature has largely glossed over some of the more controversial aspects of its history, such as the polygamy practiced by Smith and Brigham Young, who lead the Mormons to Utah.

The church denied the higher priesthood to blacks until 1978 and still bars sexually active homosexuals from its temples. The church's active role in promoting California's Proposition 8, which outlawed gay marriage, drove away some its more liberal members.

Moreover, church leaders have taught that the Book of Mormon is a historical document -- not a parable -- so the faithful are startled to find articles on the internet using science to contradict it.

For example, the book describes Israelites moving in 600 BC to the Americas, where they had horses and other domesticated animals. But Spaniards introduced horses to the New World many centuries later, and extensive DNA studies have failed to find any genetic link between Israelites and Native Americans, suggesting instead that North America's indigenous population came across the Bering Strait from Asia many thousands of years ago.

"I think you can find scientific studies coming down on both sides, but the Book of Mormon doesn't live or die on scientific evidence," Jensen said.

But Christian Anderson, 41, a non-practicing Mormon in Columbia, South Carolina, for years filed away on a mental "shelf" concerns about the historical veracity of the religion's central text and its socially conservative views. "It came to a point where the shelf was too heavy," he said. He quit attending service, telling himself, "Ok, I'm done."

That's a common story to PhD student John Dehlin, who conducts conferences nationally for "unorthodox Mormons" wrestling with doubts and has a podcast, mormonstories.org.

"I think this is an epidemic for the church," said Dehlin. "Most of the people we cater to have been life-long members."

The church is particularly concerned, however, about its younger members -- the ones who are asked to dedicate two years of their life to spreading the Mormon gospel.

"It's a different generation," Elder Jensen told the group in Logan. "There's no sense kidding ourselves, we just need to be very upfront with them and tell them what we know and give answers to what we have and call on their faith like we all do for things we don't understand."

REACHING OUT TO GAYS

Certainly the church can change, as it did a generation ago in admitting blacks to the higher priesthood. And it has now reached out, quietly, to the gay community.

LDS support of Prop 8 became a lightning rod both inside and outside the Church. There were demonstrations in Salt Lake City, which is home to the Mormon tabernacle but was also just named the "the gayest city in America" by the Advocate magazine, crediting its numerous gay-friendly bars, book stores and neighborhoods. In the wake of the Prop 8 battle, Brandie Balken, executive director of gay rights group Equality Utah, was one of five gay advocates who met with three LDS officials to ease tensions.

What was supposed to be a half hour or hour meeting stretched to two hours. Participants took turns describing their background. Balken talked about her love of gardening -- and the pain infusing the family of her wife, who was the only gay child in a big LDS family.

Most of the church members present said they weren't aware of anyone they knew being gay, but they had heard from parents whose gay children were no longer speaking to them and who felt caught between their religion and their family.

There was no immediate agreement. But the Church did in 2009 support a job and housing anti-discrimination measure in Salt Lake City, saying that opposing discrimination was a separate issue from same-sex marriage. Now Utah Democratic Senator Ben McAdams and Republican Representative Derek Brown are proposing a similar statewide bill, and the Church's position on that will be significant.

I have never ever been associated with an organization that changes as fast as the Mormon church," said former church researcher Ray Briscoe, 79, whose investigations helped spur movement on issues such as the treatment of blacks.

"I don't think God was ever against blacks in the priesthood. We just had to grow up enough to accept it," he said. As for gays -- "it will get there, in my judgment."

PRESIDENTIAL ISSUE

This crisis of faith in the LDS church remains largely offstage in the race for the presidency. Mitt Romney's religion has been less of a prominent issue on the campaign trail this time around than in 2008.

Still, in heavily evangelical South Carolina, Romney won only one-tenth of the vote among those who said a candidate's religious beliefs mattered to them a great deal.

Many evangelicals say they do not consider the LDS church to be Christian.

And to some voters, Mormonism remains a complete enigma. During the South Carolina primary, one Mormon woman there said an acquaintance was surprised to see her driving a car, confusing Mormons with the Amish.

Individual Mormons are encouraged to participate in public life, including running for office and supporting candidates, but the church officially stays out of electoral politics. It won't allow its property to be used for polling, unlike many other churches, and has been careful not to run the "I am a Mormon" ads in early primary states.

But that's not to say church leadership isn't watching Romney's campaign with interest.

"There have been discussions at LDS church headquarters about both the positive and negative aspects of Romney's presidential bid," a person briefed on the talks said. "One concern is that Romney's campaign could further energize evangelical antipathy toward the church. Another concern is that he could take positions that would complicate the church's missionary efforts in the U.S. or other countries such as in Central and South America."

But on the positive side, the person said, "having a Mormon president could raise the church's profile and legitimize it in other countries."

Really sorta everywhere but interesting.

What I found interesting/alarming was the whole "We gotta start teaching the book of mormon as parable instead of fact." tact.

I mean I grew up with the whole "The BoM is the most correct of ANY book on earth!" line. And that's all over the place. If the church is going to survive in saying "It's a parable!" which in other words "It's fiction." That's a complete 180 from where the church has been since it's inception. I hope it's just Elder Jensen (and if rumors are to be believed, Elder Holland).

I'm also interested in "The Rescue" program. In the off chance any practicing mormons are reading can anyone shed some light on that program? What's it like?
 

ronito

Member
I have a copy of the recording that was made from that class with Elder Jensen. The person that initially recorded it took it down for some personal reasons, but I have the go ahead to share it if anybody is interested. PM me if you want a copy.

Also of interest:

http://whymormonsleave.com/2012/01/31/causes-and-costs-of-mormon-faith-crises/
I saw that this morning. It is sorta interesting.

I found it telling that 67% of respondents said they didn't feel edified by going to church. Certainly that was true in my case but I didn't expect it to be true for so many others. It's also funny that only 8% of people left because they felt offended and of that only 1% said it was their primary reason for leaving. I mean that's the main reason you're told about while you're mormon. People leave because they get offended or they wanted to be sinful (again 8% cited it as a reason and only 1% as the primary reason)

I'll foward this article to my wife, and ask her about it tonight.

Thanks I really look forward to knowing what it's about.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Thanks I really look forward to knowing what it's about.

I'm just connecting the dots - still at work - but connecting the dots:

The effort includes a new package of materials for pastors and for teaching Mormon youth that address some of the more sensitive aspects of church doctrine. "If they are not revolutionary, they are at least going to be a breath of fresh air across the church," Jensen told the Utah class.

Between that description, the framing of the Reuters story, the SLT story and the initial results from the survey posted (unrelated, but I'd wager the church is seeing similar data), I'm guessing it's an effort to address some of the top reasons people leave the church. The whitewashed history seems like a prime candidate. I'll follow up though.

The survey results are quite interesting, and a bit surprising to me. I was surprised that the shock of actual church history was higher than Prop 8, which was the last straw for me. Though, I'd put both as being major reasons I left.
 

ronito

Member
Man the Romney effect is in full force. Another article in the washington post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-mitt-romney/2012/01/31/gIQAdtK1fQ_story.html

Marvin Perkins says God led him to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — but friends advised otherwise.

“Mormons, they’re prejudiced against blacks,” Perkins recalls being told.

Until 1978, the LDS church banned men of African descent from its priesthood, a position open to nearly all Mormon males and the gateway to sacramental and leadership roles. The church had also barred black men and women from temple ceremonies that promised access in the afterlife to the highest heaven.

As he explored joining the church in 1988, Perkins said he asked Mormons near his Los Angeles home about the racial doctrines. They gently explained that blacks were the cursed descendants of Cain, the biblical murderer, he recalls.

“Let’s say you have this powerful witness of God telling you that this church is truly of him,” said the 48-year-old salesman and video producer. “And then the people in that church lovingly tell you that you are cursed. How do you reconcile those two things?”

Perkins says Mormon leaders couldn’t offer an answer.


The LDS church has neither formally apologized for the priesthood ban nor publicly repudiated many of the theories used to justify it for more than 125 years.


Perkins and other black Mormons say the church’s silence not only irks many African-Americans, it could also become a loud distraction for the nation’s most prominent Mormon: Mitt Romney, the front-runner for the GOP presidential nomination.

“Right now is a great opportunity for the church to say, ‘Let’s clear the air once and for all,’” said Darron Smith, co-editor of the book “Black and Mormon” and a sociologist at Wichita State University in Kansas.

“But they won’t do it. And that’s going to put reasonable doubt in people’s minds about Romney and the church.”

“The curse of Cain”

The LDS church is mounting a multimillion-dollar campaign to highlight its growing diversity. In billboards, online ads and TV commercials, Latinos, Asians and African-Americans alike assert, “I’m a Mormon.”

But the church remains overwhelmingly white. A recent survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that blacks comprise just 1 percent of the nearly 6 million Mormons in the U.S.

LDS church spokesman Michael Purdy said Mormonism is growing in Africa and in racially diverse communities in the U.S. and Latin America.

God rejects “none who come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female,” Purdy said in a statement, quoting The Book of Mormon. “Just as God loves all of his children, wants what is best for them, and considers them as equals, so does the church,” he added.


But many blacks perceive the LDS church as racist, said Perkins and Smith. Neither were surprised to hear an African-American pastor in Florida who supports Rick Santorum’s campaign raise the racial charge recently.

“Blacks are not going to vote for anyone of the Mormon faith,” the Rev. O’Neal Dozier told The Palm Beach Post on Jan. 22. “The Book of Mormon says the Negro skin is cursed.”

The Book of Mormon says no such thing. But another Mormon scripture, The Pearl of Great Price, says, “blackness came upon” Cain’s descendants, who were “despised among all people.”


Among Cain’s heirs was Noah’s son, Ham, who was “cursed ... as pertaining to the priesthood,” according to the scripture. Mormons trace their priesthood to Adam and Noah.

Questions about Mormonism’s racial history also arose during Romney’s first White House run.

In a 2007 “Meet the Press” interview, Tim Russert noted that Romney was 31 when the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978. “Didn’t you think, ‘What am I doing part of an organization that is viewed by many as a racist organization?’” Russert asked.

“I’m very proud of my faith, and it’s the faith of my fathers,” Romney answered. “And I’m not going to distance myself from my faith in any way.”


But Romney also said that he had been “anxious to see a change in my church” and recalled weeping when he heard that the ban had been lifted.

“Even at this day it’s emotional, and so it’s very deep and fundamental in my life and my most core beliefs that all people are children of God,” Romney said.

Pressed by Russert, Romney refused to say his church was wrong to restrict blacks from full participation.


Romney’s forebears were among the original Mormon converts in the 1830s, and Romney himself was a bishop in the church before he entered politics in 1994.

“For men like Romney, lifelong church members whose people were pioneers in the faith, to criticize church authority would be akin to heresy,” said Smith.

Romney’s father, George Romney, also faced criticism over the priesthood ban when he ran for president in 1968. He answered by extolling his civil rights record as governor of Michigan.

George Romney, like his son, refused to publicly criticize his church.

“The issue hurt him and it hurt the image of Mormon church,” said Newell Bringhurst, a historian and co-author of “The Mormon Quest for the Presidency.”

It may mar Mitt Romney’s campaign too, Bringhurst said. “He’ll face more and more scrutiny on the Mormon-black issue, even though the church has abandoned the policy.”

Smith was more blunt.

“The church has never done its due diligence, and guess what? Mitt Romney is taking hell for it.”


“We just got that one wrong”

Purdy said LDS leaders began seeking divine guidance about the black ban in the 1970s. In 1978, he said, “a revelation to the church’s prophet extended the blessings of the priesthood to all worthy members.”

“It was a day of great rejoicing in the church,” Purdy said.

But the 1978 statement did not address the theological background behind the ban.

In 1949, the LDS church’s First Presidency — the top tier of its hierarchy — had said the priesthood ban was a “direct commandment from the Lord.” And some LDS leaders regarded as prophets taught that black skin was punishment for souls that lacked valor in a pre-earthly existence.

“Some explanations with respect to this matter were made in the absence of direct revelation and references to these explanations are sometimes cited in publications,” Purdy said. “These previous personal statements do not represent church doctrine.”

But even prophets’ personal statements are taken as holy writ, and theories about blacks being cursed or spiritually lacking circulated among Mormons well after the ban was lifted.

Even under intense pressure from black Mormons, the church has refused to formally repudiate past interpretations of doctrine or scripture that tie spiritual worthiness to race.

“If the LDS church were to apologize, that would be casting aspersions on God’s prophets — the voice of God on earth,” said Richard Ostling, co-author of the book “Mormon America.”

“I don’t think the Mormon soul could countenance it.”

Perkins agreed that admitting prophets had erred would be “faith shattering” for many Mormons.

After converting to Mormonism, he began counseling fellow black Mormons and producing videos on race in church scripture. Perkins believes he’s doing his part to help the church overcome its racist reputation.

But his work alone cannot overcome blacks’ deep-seated and widespread suspicions about Mormonism, Perkins said.

“The church is going to have to make it happen by confessing that its racial teachings were wrong,” he said, “that we’re a church of continuing revelation and we just got that one wrong.”

Well the reporter certainly did not pull any punches. Romney didn't get far enough in the primaries for this to be a real issue. Republicans care about racisim? Ha.

But if, as supposed, he becomes the nominee this is certainly going to come to the forefront, especially against Obama. Really the church will be in a hard place. It's hard enough to explain to believers let alone non-believers especially when it was so far after the civil rights movement.

Also Ghal, any word from the wife?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Good article. The ban on the priesthood, which I learned about more as I grew older, was one of my formative reasons for eventually leaving the church. They are as far behind on gay rights as they were on civil rights for blacks. It's remarkable that the ban was lifted during my lifetime.

The wife hadn't heard of Monson's Rescue initiative. It must be something that is coming down from the leadership as new materials but not being labeled as such at large.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Hey, I dunno if this is the thread for it, but thought I'd pop in. I'm a Latter-Day Saint, have been my whole life, served a mission, and am going to a Church School. I don't know that I can answer all the big huge questions, but I don't mind answering the stuff that falls into my own sphere.

So yeah. LDS, RM, and all that jazz. Hello all and how are ya?
 

CorvoSol

Member
Yep. I did not make the cut for BYU Provo, so I'm here in Idaho. Which is actually okay. I'm enjoying the tiny campus, easy access to the temple, friendly atmosphere and classes. I'm majoring in International Studies, but most of my courses are general stuff right now. Science, English, Math, and all.
 

ronito

Member
Yep. I did not make the cut for BYU Provo, so I'm here in Idaho. Which is actually okay. I'm enjoying the tiny campus, easy access to the temple, friendly atmosphere and classes. I'm majoring in International Studies, but most of my courses are general stuff right now. Science, English, Math, and all.

lol. My first thought was "If he made it to BYU he'd make sure everyone knew."

I hear Rexburg can be crazy at times with the dating scene and everything. Stay safe my friend.
 

CorvoSol

Member
lol. My first thought was "If he made it to BYU he'd make sure everyone knew."

I hear Rexburg can be crazy at times with the dating scene and everything. Stay safe my friend.

As my brothers can attest, most of my life I did not want to go to BYU. I was pretty adamant in telling my friends "No, shut up, I'm not going to BYU just because I'm Mormon." But I dunno, on my Mission I just kinda felt like I should try my luck with BYU. Interesting thought though: would I brag about going to a school full of Mormons?

And I can't say much about the dating scene yet. I will say this: I have never paid more attention to a woman's hands than I have in the last month. I never know if girls are already married or not, and it drives me nuts.

Worst of all though? When they're single, but they have elaborate, jeweled CTR rings. GAH MIXED MESSAGES GAH.

But yeah, one of my friends told me as I came to school "Don't date the 18 year olds!" He had a girlfriend who, when they broke up, she broke into his apartment, haha.
 

Kyzer

Banned
My father was mormon, he was a missionary in Brazil and even went into and lived in the rainforest for long periods of time. He has since denounced it.

My spiritual curiosity is fairly new, but for about a year now I've been trying to gain an understanding of scripture and really decode what our ancestors say happened in times past.

I came to a point in my research where I noticed that Christianity was either just an outright lie or someone messed with the original message A LOT.

Ive since rediscovered the Book of Mormon and it talks about a period of Apostasy in which literally the new covenant was intentionally twisted...I dont wanna say too many crazy things and offend anyone, but...to me, if I were lucifer, and I wanted to stray as many people as possible from the word of God and deals we made with him in terms of righteousness, I would create a story about how you dont have to worry about it anymore, because some really incredible thing happened when no one was looking so now youre good with god as long as you accept that it happened. And the scripture forbids blind faith (at least, the originals do, the Qu'ran and the Torah)

So its like. Either this is a huge lie or someone really messed with this book, because a lot of it is quite plainly pagan and ungodly.

But anyways.

The Latter Day Saints thing....its really starting to intrigue me.

Idk where Im even going with this...I just...had to say it.

\
 

Thaedolus

Member
The inactives live with their girlfriends, smoke pot all day and work in lower-paying jobs. This is despite growing up in suburbia, with middle class households. They are constantly rebelling against something in their lives. Despite being adults, they seem to harbor some sort of juvenile resentment towards the church for trying to mold them into decent human beings.

The actives are married in the temple, appear genuinely happy with life, have gotten their degrees and work hard on surrounding themselves with successful people and relationships. Obviously they are not perfect, but they seem like they have their priorities in line and are productive members of society.

I'll counter your anecdotes with my own:

My college roommate served a mission, married a sister missionary he met there, popped out his first kid about a year afterward, had another no more than 18 months after that. He had to drop out of college to support his family. He currently is making about ten bucks an hour working at a factory job up in Logan. Facebook paints him as a bitter ultra-conservative blaming liberals for his woes.

I grew up middle-class in California, moved to Utah for school in 2003, served a mission in Argentina in 2005, and quit all church activity afterward. I told my family I didn't want anything to do with the LDS church anymore, and made my way through college without getting married. I drank alcohol, had sex, and had the sense to be safe. I stayed out of major debt, graduated, got a job in Salt Lake and have worked my way into a well-paying job. I live with my girlfriend, we have a puppy together and I'm about to buy a house. I still drink and have myself some awesome premarital relations. Sometime down the road I might get married. Out of all my immediate family (parents, three siblings) I'm the only one who hasn't taken the traditional Mormon-married-for-time-and-all-eternity approach to my life and I have to say...I think I'm by far the happiest. I have the least amount of stress, I can't really complain about anything, and I really love my life right now. No kids or tithing to drain and stretch my finances. No guilt trips from a false religion to make me constantly question everything I do...I dunno, I have to say that from my own personal experience, being non-Mormon has been so much better than Mormon that any time I even consider going back I just kinda laugh.

And before you imagine up a fake reason for me falling away: I was always the golden child, I always had leadership positions, and I was a defender of the faith in a state (California) that was rather openly hostile toward my beliefs. My mom was Relief Society President for years, my father served on High Councils and bishoprics all my life. You can even ask Hito about how I used to be, I was no inactive child that grew up in an inactive house.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I think you'll find that many Latter-Day Saints would agree with you that Satan spends a good amount of his time convincing people not to worry about anything related to the Gospel at all. Nephi comments on it in 2nd Nephi, 28, when he mentions the whole "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." thing. Yeah, here we go, verses 7 and 8. In 7 it talks about "eat, drink and be merry, tomorrow we die and we'll be all good and yadda yadda". In 8 he just kinda says it again, but with the addition of "there is no harm in this . . . and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the Kingdom of God."

So it kinda mentions, when talking about it, that one of the ways Satan tricks people is by saying "Hey, just do whatever, and if there is a God, He'll be slap you on the wrist and let you into Heaven anyway."

I . . . have no idea if that helps you or not, but that was what came to my mind? Good luck on learning more about the Church, though. Just as a quick explanation: We don't sacrifice animals. Can't tell you how many people asked me that in Brazil.

Talking to Kyzer. I really need to get this quoting thing under better control.
 

Doodis

Member
The wife hadn't heard of Monson's Rescue initiative. It must be something that is coming down from the leadership as new materials but not being labeled as such at large.
I haven't heard anything about "The Rescue" before reading it here either, for what it's worth, and I'm a young men's leader.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I haven't heard anything about "The Rescue" before reading it here either, for what it's worth, and I'm a young men's leader.

Rescue was a big huge buzzword at the end of my Mission. I actually had a good experience with it right toward the end. Assuming this is the same term we used.
 

ronito

Member
I've seen quite a few non-Mormons adopt this

The whole "Book of Mormon as divinely inspired fiction"? Is that what you're talking about? I can see why spiritual non-mormons would take to it, but in the church it just is so contrary to the whole thing that the whole religion falls apart.

I mean every month kids to adults get up and say "I know the book of mormon is true!" And Joseph Smith and all the prophets since swore up and down about the veracity of the book of mormon for the church to take a "Just kidding, it's just parables." tact might look good on the outside but I don't think the church could much survive it.
 

Kyzer

Banned
I think you'll find that many Latter-Day Saints would agree with you that Satan spends a good amount of his time convincing people not to worry about anything related to the Gospel at all. Nephi comments on it in 2nd Nephi, 28, when he mentions the whole "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." thing. Yeah, here we go, verses 7 and 8. In 7 it talks about "eat, drink and be merry, tomorrow we die and we'll be all good and yadda yadda". In 8 he just kinda says it again, but with the addition of "there is no harm in this . . . and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the Kingdom of God."

So it kinda mentions, when talking about it, that one of the ways Satan tricks people is by saying "Hey, just do whatever, and if there is a God, He'll be slap you on the wrist and let you into Heaven anyway."

I . . . have no idea if that helps you or not, but that was what came to my mind? Good luck on learning more about the Church, though. Just as a quick explanation: We don't sacrifice animals. Can't tell you how many people asked me that in Brazil.

Talking to Kyzer. I really need to get this quoting thing under better control.

Enlightening post, thank you.

Whats the official mormon stance on transubstantiation?
 

Doodis

Member
Enlightening post, thank you.

Whats the official mormon stance on transubstantiation?

Mormons partake of a sacrament each Sunday of bread and water, but it only symbolically represents the body and blood of Christ. Basically, we don't believe in transubstantiation per se.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Kyzer said:
Ive since rediscovered the Book of Mormon and it talks about a period of Apostasy in which literally the new covenant was intentionally twisted...I dont wanna say too many crazy things and offend anyone, but...to me, if I were lucifer, and I wanted to stray as many people as possible from the word of God and deals we made with him in terms of righteousness, I would create a story about how you dont have to worry about it anymore, because some really incredible thing happened when no one was looking so now youre good with god as long as you accept that it happened. And the scripture forbids blind faith (at least, the originals do, the Qu'ran and the Torah)

So its like. Either this is a huge lie or someone really messed with this book, because a lot of it is quite plainly pagan and ungodly.
Consider this:

King James commissioned a translation of the respective hebrew, greek, and latin portions of the Bible in 1604. This version went into common use and is the version the Mormon Church uses today although they express misgivings as to its veracity. Meanwhile, according to them, the Book of Mormon was put into English from an original "reformed Egyptian" by divinely assisted translation through Joseph Smith and is considered to have none of the translation or transcription flaws seen with various version of the Bible and contains an unadulterated gospel. Furthermore, Joseph Smith later published a modified version of the KJV Bible with corrections produced through divine inspiration. Unfortunately, the copyright to that edition actually belongs to a splinter group and so the Mormon Church includes the specific changes in footnotes/endnotes in their edition of the Bible. For example, alongside the King James text for Matthew 7 there is an alternate "Joseph Smith Translation" version provided for verses 1 through 17, excluding verse 3.

Keeping all of this in mind, in the Book of Mormon Jesus also visits the American continent after resurrection and delivers the Sermon of the Mount to a group of Americans as he did in the gospel of Matthew, specifically Matthew 7. The specific english text for this in 3rd Nephi chapter 14 is exactly the same word-for-word as the text in the King James version of Matthew 7, aside from prefacing "Judge not, that ye be not judged" in verse 3rd Nephi 14:1, changing punctuation, and omitting the last two verses in the Matthew text. This despite being from a completely different source language and translated in a completely different context. Remember, the King James text was listed as having errors when present in the Bible, yet is found entirely preserved and declared free of error in the Book of Mormon.

The idea of a lost version of the gospel is appealing and not entirely unfounded in fact, but you'll want to look elsewhere on this.

I think you'll find that many Latter-Day Saints would agree with you that Satan spends a good amount of his time convincing people not to worry about anything related to the Gospel at all. Nephi comments on it in 2nd Nephi, 28, when he mentions the whole "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." thing. Yeah, here we go, verses 7 and 8. In 7 it talks about "eat, drink and be merry, tomorrow we die and we'll be all good and yadda yadda". In 8 he just kinda says it again, but with the addition of "there is no harm in this . . . and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the Kingdom of God."

So it kinda mentions, when talking about it, that one of the ways Satan tricks people is by saying "Hey, just do whatever, and if there is a God, He'll be slap you on the wrist and let you into Heaven anyway."
While the Book of Mormon was written to be critical of Universalism there, Mormon theology ended up being fairly universalist all the same. I mean, you say that the line "he'll let you into heaven anyway" is a way to trick people, but it's held to be entirely true. People who don't reject the gospel while having a perfect knowledge of it are all guaranteed admittance to the Telestial kingdom of heaven, and that "perfect knowledge" is a fairly high bar to meet.
 

ronito

Member
This was on the front page of Religious Dispatches and sorta touches on an earlier conversation that we were having here earlier
The ascendancy of Mormonism as a world religion once seemed inevitable. The year was 1984, and sociologist named Rodney Stark made a startling projection: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would grow to 267 million members by 2080.

That’s the narrative drumbeat to which tens of thousands of young LDS men and women marched off to proselyting missions in Latin America and Asia during the 1980s and 1990s, as LDS Church membership shot up from 4.4 million to 11 million members. Mormons imbued this growth with theological significance as the fulfillment of a prophecy that the Church would one day “fill the earth”—a sense captured in this Church video.

But new data suggests that Mormonism may no longer be (as it is often described) among the fastest-growing faiths in the United States. Instead, American Mormons appear to be settling into the twenty-first century as a maturing minority having an increasingly hard time holding onto younger members.

Official LDS Church statistics for 2011 count 6,144,582 Mormons in the United States in 2011, comprising about 2% of the nation’s population. Church statistics also show a 30% membership increase between 1990 and 2008—a rate double general US population growth.

But recent studies tell a different story—different because whereas LDS Church records count anyone who has ever been baptized, demographers and pollsters count only those who currently identify themselves as Mormon. Those are the parameters for the landmark Trinity College American Religious Identification Survey: a two-decade project that has produced the largest and most accurate database of self-reported religious identification ever compiled, with 100,000 randomly sampled participants. According to Rick Phillips and Ryan Cragun, the authors of a study of Mormons based on ARIS data, self-identified adult Mormons make up not 2% but rather 1.4% of the adult US population—that’s about 4.4 million LDS adults.

Phillips and Cragun also place LDS growth rates not at 30% but at 16%—a rate on par with general US population growth. “Despite a large missionary force and a persistent emphasis on growth,” Phillips and Cragun write, “Mormons are actually treading water with respect to their per capita presence in the U.S.” In fact, additional studies by Cragun and Phillips show that retention rates of young people (young men especially) raised Mormon have dropped substantially in the last decade: from 92.6% in the 1970s–2000s to 64.4% from 2000–2010.
Rising rates of disaffiliation go a long way towards explaining the gap between LDS Church records and the ARIS population estimates.

Those who do continue to identify as Mormon, according to data released by the Pew Forum in January, form a confident, cohesive core that is deeply invested in LDS institutional life. The Pew Forum found that 77% of self-identified Mormons reported attending church weekly, and 65% reported regular participation in temple worship, a benchmark of highly observant Mormonism. Those are eye-popping numbers that don’t quite match up to what most Mormons experience week-to-week in their congregations. (The problem may be sample bias: the Pew located many of its Mormon respondents through oversampling in core areas of the Mormon culture region, where attendance rates trend higher.) The Mormons surveyed by Pew also indicate high levels of life satisfaction, as well as a sense that Mormons are misunderstood in the U.S.: 46% said Mormons experience discrimination. Insularity is also strong among Pew-sampled LDS people, with 57% reporting that all or most of their friends are also LDS.

Social insularity as well as familial and kinship ties and feelings of religious certainty contribute to the cohesiveness of the self-identified Mormon core. But taken together the Pew and ARIS numbers suggest that while the highly active LDS core is highly self-assured, it may also be shrinking—a fact not immediately evident in Church membership statistics.

The numbers also suggest that cultural or heritage identity sense of Mormonism may be weakening, especially at the margins of the core and among those who disaffiliate. That may be bad news for twenty-first century Mormonism: other stable American minority faiths like Judaism rely on cultural identity to draw individuals back into religious life throughout the life cycle and across changes in belief and practice. Today, after decades of institutional emphasis on orthodox belief and behavior, it may be difficult for some in the highly observant Mormon core to imagine a cultural Mormonism that enfranchises the less observant. But as the 2012 presidential contest brings increased scrutiny and self-awareness of Mormonism as a culture (complete with its own foodways), perhaps the time is right for Mormons to explore how to nourish and strengthen Mormon identity, even if our twenty-first century numbers don’t live up to the projections.
 

Patryn

Member
Not surprising that it's young men who are especially prone to falling away. Being asked to serve a two-year mission is a huge commitment.

I know that when my time came, it was what finally totally drove me away. I didn't want to waste two years preaching something I didn't believe in. Thankfully, my family didn't make a big deal about it, although a family friend from church did write me a letter begging me to go.
 

ronito

Member
Mormon Stories posted a podcast interviewing Ryan Cragun, where they apparently go pretty deep into that subject:

http://mormonstories.org/?p=2422

Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, though.

Also, this article is kind of interesting.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/bloomberg-report-takes-aim-at-mormon-church-for-on

I have to check out that new mormon stories they are always really fascinating, if not sometimes fraught with cognitive dissonance.

As to the article about the Church owning a huge unregulated gun market, I know the mormons here think I'm really anti, but even I have a hard time faulting the church for that. It's like craigslist. Though I will say if they turned as much attention to gunsales on KSL.com as they do to make sure nothing illicit was going on it'd be taken care of in a second. But really it's a sales site, sorta hard to fault them for selling guns, something that a lot of Utah mormons really believe in.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Consider this:

While the Book of Mormon was written to be critical of Universalism there, Mormon theology ended up being fairly universalist all the same. I mean, you say that the line "he'll let you into heaven anyway" is a way to trick people, but it's held to be entirely true. People who don't reject the gospel while having a perfect knowledge of it are all guaranteed admittance to the Telestial kingdom of heaven, and that "perfect knowledge" is a fairly high bar to meet.

That's a fair point, I suppose. I would argue, though, that it's still a deception. That would depend on your interpretation of what Satan's goal is, though. Pulling someone down from the Celestial to the Telestial is, comparatively, a big win for him. You could also make the case that "Heaven" in this sense, applies mostly to the Celestial Kingdom, while the next two down are, how do you say, less Heavenly?

I see your point, though, and it is a fair one. I definitely need to do some brushing up, I see. :)
 

Barrett2

Member
This was on the front page of Religious Dispatches and sorta touches on an earlier conversation that we were having here earlier

Phillips and Cragun also place LDS growth rates not at 30% but at 16%—a rate on par with general US population growth. “Despite a large missionary force and a persistent emphasis on growth,” Phillips and Cragun write, “Mormons are actually treading water with respect to their per capita presence in the U.S.” In fact, additional studies by Cragun and Phillips show that retention rates of young people (young men especially) raised Mormon have dropped substantially in the last decade: from 92.6% in the 1970s–2000s to 64.4% from 2000–2010.

That's fascinating. I don't follow this stuff like I used to, but at least anecdotally, now that I am in my 30s, it is downright shocking how many former mission companions, friends from high school, and siblings one by one admit that they no longer go to Church, or they are looking for an excuse to stop going.
 

ronito

Member
Not surprising that it's young men who are especially prone to falling away. Being asked to serve a two-year mission is a huge commitment.

I know that when my time came, it was what finally totally drove me away. I didn't want to waste two years preaching something I didn't believe in. Thankfully, my family didn't make a big deal about it, although a family friend from church did write me a letter begging me to go.

a friend of mine and I were talking about that.

Yeah I think the mission thing has a lot to do with it. I mean that is 2 years of your life, and not just any 2 years, 19-21. Those are prime years of your life when you're supposed to be living and figuring out who you are. If they were 2 years in like your 50s that's a different story all together.

But I think it runs deeper than that. In a way, despite the fact that a lot of women complain about their status in the church I do think the church narrative just resonates more with them than with men. The idea of prince charming coming in and you two living together for eternity with all your children can be very appealing to a woman whereas many guys just see it as moving from one responsibility to the next and can find it sorta stifling.
 
Man the Romney effect is in full force. Another article in the washington post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-mitt-romney/2012/01/31/gIQAdtK1fQ_story.html



Well the reporter certainly did not pull any punches. Romney didn't get far enough in the primaries for this to be a real issue. Republicans care about racisim? Ha.

But if, as supposed, he becomes the nominee this is certainly going to come to the forefront, especially against Obama. Really the church will be in a hard place. It's hard enough to explain to believers let alone non-believers especially when it was so far after the civil rights movement.

Also Ghal, any word from the wife?
damn it, Cain! fucking it up for too many of us. :-(
 

Patryn

Member
a friend of mine and I were talking about that.

Yeah I think the mission thing has a lot to do with it. I mean that is 2 years of your life, and not just any 2 years, 19-21. Those are prime years of your life when you're supposed to be living and figuring out who you are. If they were 2 years in like your 50s that's a different story all together.

Which is why the whole mission thing is so brilliant/insidious. What better way than to reinforce/indoctrinate the young with your faith? Except when it has the opposite effect, as with me.

Because, the pressure about going on a mission that starts as soon as you're out of primary, basically, is what started to drive cracks in my faith.

I remember one of the first real big hits against my belief in the church came in some class where we were talking about missions, and the teacher was talking about how if you have doubts about your faith, you should be even more driven to go on a mission, because it would help reinforce the faith for yourself. All I could wonder is what good to potential converts is a person who isn't sure about their own faith? Isn't that a form of lying?
 
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