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[Hitokage]

When your name is still on the records, your address is in a rolodex that somebody will find some way to keep current. Got a note at the door from missionaries addressed to my name after two address changes.

 

[Laurentius]

When your name is still on the records, your address is in a rolodex that somebody will find some way to keep current. Got a note at the door from missionaries addressed to my name after two address changes.

Salt Lake calls family members to update records sometimes. I've gotten a call before asking about the current location of my sister.

Kind of creepy.

 

[mik]

I got a letter saying the bishop would contact me to discuss. What the hell? I was really clear in my letter that the ONLY contact I wanted from the church was confirmation that I'd been removed.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

When your name is still on the records, your address is in a rolodex that somebody will find some way to keep current. Got a note at the door from missionaries addressed to my name after two address changes.

They found me after college, likely because of a family member. I also haven't had them remove me from the records or anything, I don't really care enough.

 

[Brianemone]

I got a letter saying the bishop would contact me to discuss. What the hell? I was really clear in my letter that the ONLY contact I wanted from the church was confirmation that I'd been removed.

Yeah, the church doesn't care what people want.

 

[ronito]

If I may ask, what was it that helped you to decided to finally leave? Like Ronito has said we're still juggling with the idea. I never really felt the need to make it official because regardless of how I view the church now it will always be a part of who I am. But as of late the idea has been weighing on my mind and I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. I definitely don't feel guilty about my disaffection with the church(despite what my family thinks). But this whole thing does sadden me. It's left me unsure of what to do.

yeak mik, if you don't mind, that might help us in our current position.

Also, Yorimoto, any updates?

 

[mik]

Maybe it would help to read my letter. There are myriad other personal reasons behind the decision (I feel like the church really screwed up my life in many ways), but this will give you a good idea...

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is my formal resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, effective immediately. I hereby withdraw my consent to being treated as a member and I withdraw my consent to being subject to church rules, policies, beliefs and discipline. As I am no longer a member, my name will be permanently and completely removed from the membership rolls of the church. I no longer wish to have my name appear on any Church records, contact lists, or statistical information other than as a “non-member.”

I am aware that the church handbook says that my resignation “cancels the effects of baptism and confirmation…and revokes temple blessings.” I also understand that I will be “readmitted to the church by baptism only after a thorough interview.” I am fully aware that according to LDS Church doctrine I will lose any chance for exaltation in the “celestial kingdom.” I knowingly and fully reject the pretense behind those concepts and accept the consequences of my actions.

My resignation should be processed immediately, without any waiting periods. I expect this matter to be handled promptly, with respect and with full confidentiality.

After today, the only contact I want from the Church is a single letter of confirmation to let me know that I am no longer listed as a member of the Church. I will refuse to speak or respond to anyone from the Church who attempts to debate doctrine with me or change my mind about my decision.

This is not merely a capricious reaction to recent socio-political actions involving the Church—though they are certainly related and contribute to the cumulative effect Church policy and doctrine have had on my experience with the faith.

As the father of two beautiful daughters, I bristle at the notion that gender should serve as any sort of limiting factor in a person's life. I devote considerable effort to teaching my children and reinforcing to them that being a female does not in any way limit their potential—neither personally nor professionally. I cannot, then, tacitly endorse, by remaining a member, a religion that continues to subjugate women and treat them as materially inferior to men—in the 21st century, no less.

What's more, the Church cannot even abide discourse on the matter, as recent events have proven. The staunch refusal to entertain debate or discussion on the matter of priesthood ordination for women simply casts the Church as a fearful, anachronistic, paranoid sect, led by bullheaded, myopic, septuagenarian misogynists. I cannot abide being associated—even simply on a list of members—with an organization that is seemingly terrified of discussing its own dogma.

I could say the same for the Church's embarrassing treatment of homosexuals—especially its own homosexual members. But the pattern is by now apparent. I'm certain a letter similar to mine was drafted by a disillusioned Mormon in the 1960s who was disgusted at the horrific stance on denying priesthood authority to blacks. And I'm equally certain that in my lifetime, there will be "revelations" that afford more authority and tolerance toward homosexuals and women alike—surely around the time the Church's tax exempt status is called into question.

Thank you for handling this matter in a prompt and respectful manner. I waive the thirty-day waiting period during which the stake president may hold the request in order to give me the opportunity to rescind. Instead, I request to process it without delay. I look forward to receiving the confirmation letter soon and hope that there will be no delay.


Sincerely,

Mike Phillips

 

[Rest]

Maybe it would help to read my letter. There are myriad other personal reasons behind the decision (I feel like the church really screwed up my life in many ways), but this will give you a good idea...

I'm a bit curious, if that is your real name, how will they know which Mike Phillips you are? Do you have some kind of internal identifier?

 

[mik]

Yes,well, I left out the bit with my address, date of birth, etc., since I felt that was perhaps not essential to the topic at hand.

 

[Yoritomo]

yeak mik, if you don't mind, that might help us in our current position.

Also, Yorimoto, any updates?

Not really. Been making new friends and we're planning a meetup of local exmormons, including a few people we already knew from TBM days.

Wife isn't ready to write the letter, but she's only been looking into things for about 6 months now.

 

[ronitoswife]

I saw this and all I can say is WOW! People like to say there is no sexual repression or dysfunction within the church but this is a prime example of just that. As good of intentions as she may have had, I don't think she realizes how immature and childlike her reactions and thoughts regarding the whole matter really are. Even the way she described how her husband reacted shows that the dysfunction is not only with the women of the church but extends to the men as well. Still, kudos to her for being brave enough and willing to want to talk about it.


Also, thanks mik for letting us read your letter. It seems that some of the concerns we have are similar to yours.

http://nicemormonwife.blogspot.com/2011/09/our-first-night.html

 

[Fathead]

Now that I'm in the south....that blog post is no different than a bunch of the various denominations here would be like. Sexual ignorance seems to be typical among most devout christian sects.

 

[ronito]

Now that I'm in the south....that blog post is no different than a bunch of the various denominations here would be like. Sexual ignorance seems to be typical among most devout christian sects.

Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily excuse it at all. Further, I've been to the south, people talk a big chastity game there, but they're just as slutty as everyone else (sometimes more). Mormons got the whole SIN NEXT TO MURDER! thing going on. Which you can't really say about most other sects.

Also, you're in the south? What?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Now that I'm in the south....that blog post is no different than a bunch of the various denominations here would be like. Sexual ignorance seems to be typical among most devout christian sects.

Ehhh, I don't buy the "no different" thing except in the most devout of Christian sects. Some are prudish by even Mormon standards, but I didn't know anyone like that growing up in California. Most my friends were some sort of protestant Christian or Catholic. Zero of them seem to have the fucked up view of sexuality I grew up with and still have to fight as a married adult.

Yes, even as married male nearly a decade out of the church, I still have a skewed view of sexuality because of how I was raised. I can just imagine what it's like for women in the church.

 

[Fathead]

Ehhh, I don't buy the "no different" thing except in the most devout of Christian sects. Some are prudish by even Mormon standards, but I didn't know anyone like that growing up in California. Most my friends were some sort of protestant Christian or Catholic. Zero of them seem to have the fucked up view of sexuality I grew up with and still have to fight as a married adult.

Yes, even as married male nearly a decade out of the church, I still have a skewed view of sexuality because of how I was raised. I can just imagine what it's like for women in the church.

You arent in the south. A lot of these people scare the hell out of me.


I said i was moving, ronito. Im in NC.

 

[ronito]

Oh right, I remember now. When you gonna stop moving?

 

[Fathead]

When my health and career settle.

I will probably move again a year from now, 1 more promotion, then settle in for a while.


This move was all about health. :|

 

[ronitoswife]

Now that I'm in the south....that blog post is no different than a bunch of the various denominations here would be like. Sexual ignorance seems to be typical among most devout christian sects.

oh I completely agree with you on that one. It's very apparent that this sort of thing is not limited to just the Mormon church. However, that doesn't mean it's not as big of a deal or less of a problem within the church. Honestly, I think it's an issue that every christian sect should address. I refer to the Mormon church mainly because it's the only religion that I've ever identified with and can relate to as well as the majority of the people I know and love and care about are still Mormon. Most of them still hold on to this puritanical way of thinking and I've seen how it has affected and hurt them in some way or another. Even though they don't see or recognize it. It's sad and heartbreaking really. Which is why I think it's still just as important to discuss it as an issue within the church.

 

[ronito]

oh I completely agree with you on that one. It's very apparent that this sort of thing is not limited to just the Mormon church. However, that doesn't mean it's not as big of a deal or less of a problem within the church. Honestly, I think it's an issue that every christian sect should address. I refer to the Mormon church mainly because it's the only religion that I've ever identified with and can relate to as well as the majority of the people I know and love and care about are still Mormon. Most of them still hold on to this puritanical way of thinking and I've seen how it has affected and hurt them in some way or another. Even though they don't see or recognize it. It's sad and heartbreaking really. Which is why I think it's still just as important to discuss it as an issue within the church.

Yeah. I sometimes get the whole "Why you picking on the mormons? Other religions do this!" Yeah, they do. But I wasn't part of other religions. Neither are my family other religions. But I'll still say that I have yet to see another modern christian sect (outside of the fundamentalists) that give chastity more than lip service. Most other sects its like "Sex is bad bad bad!" Mormons are like "Sex is next to murder!" It's a different message.

Speaking of sex. As I've gotten older and all that, I've realized that there was a LOT of homo-erotic situations in my ward/scouts growing up. And it wasn't just my specific ward I attended three different wards and each had their own experiences that make me tilt my head a bit. Am I the only one?

 

[Fathead]

The people here are far worse about it imo.

 

[ronito]

So no one? I'm the only mormon with a lot of homo-eroticism around him growing up?

 

[Brianemone]

So no one? I'm the only mormon with a lot of homo-eroticism around him growing up?

Sorry man, looks like it.

I honestly wouldn't have noticed or remembered anything like that anyway, I was oblivious to anything of a sexual nature until I was 18

 

[Fathead]

I spoke in sacrament meeting today. I didn't get called to the bishops office after so I guess I'm OK!

 

[ronito]

I spoke in sacrament meeting today. I didn't get called to the bishops office after so I guess I'm OK!

I think I've mentioned this before, but I once was given a talk about a conference talk. I spent most of the talk speaking about how the concept of giving a talk on a talk was fairly stupid and a waste of time by the time I was giving the talk they'd already heard it on TV, read it in the ensign and probably had a lesson on it and how I couldn't possibly say what the original speaker wanted to say better than how he already said it.

Then proceeded to dress down the talk about how it was largely wrong. I've given a lot of talks in church and people tend to generally like it but people went crazy for that talk. People were asking for copies of my script and all that. Speak truth to power and all that.

Also did you guys hear about the leak in the church? I guess all the bishop handbooks since like 1860 until now. At first I was like "meh, so what?" But some historians are saying they're going to be able to use that leak to be able to come up with timelines as to what doctrines/practices existed from what time to what time, when they ended etc. Which when thinking about it would be really interesting.

Also there are a few little nuggets of fun in there like the 1960 handbook said that if a young woman left her home ward to go to a city for a job or education that the bishop had to notify the Salt Lake.

 

[CorvoSol]

Tangentially related to Bishops, my dad got called into the Bishopric this Summer! Sort of a big deal, I guess, haha. He's second counselor. Also my little bro is serving his mission in the "far off" city of sin, Los Angeles. Which is super, super, super cool to me. Really excited by that.

Been getting letters from Peaceiscloser (who is also in the state of California). He seems to be doing pretty well. We chatted for a bit about how it was important not to measure Missionary success in numbers. Which is something you always think you know as a Missionary, but which sometimes can be hard to remember during the day-to-day.

And not this Friday, but next, I'm going back to Rexburg. It was washed clean from its sins this Summer, during the "Great Flood," so I'm sure there'll be jokes of that nature aplenty. Part of me is excited to be back at school, the other part is bracing itself for another dip into the pool of a culture I sorta don't mesh well with.

 

[ronito]

I remember when my guitar professor got called to be 2nd counsellor. He took real serious and stopped drinking caffeine which I still swear plunged him into a deep depression. One time shortly after he started doing the no-caffeine bit I was playing a really complicated Bach fugue for him just a week before juries (our finals) and he stops me in the middle (which he only did if I ever screwed up big time) and he turns to me and said "You know Ron, there's just not much to live for after you stop drinking caffeine."

Poor guy.

How much longer do you have in Rexburg Corvo? It seems like you've been there forever.

 

[CorvoSol]

My dad is real big on facial hair, and they made him shave down to a 'stache. We were really worried that he'd have to shave that off, too. I've -never- seen my dad without his mustache. I think my mother has only seen him like that once.



I have this coming semester plus another year in Rexburg if everything goes well. Fall 2015 should be my finishing semester. The problems are three: 1) I have to find an internship for next summer because I need an International Internship to get my major, 2) I have to hope the classes I need are all available when I need them, because this school is screwy and sometimes required classes aren't being taught and 3) I have to take a bunch of filler electives next year because I have enough of my required courses done that I won't be meeting the required 14 credits per semester for resident students if I just take what I need to graduate.

I can't load all of it into a single semester and finish Winter 2015 because I have one class that requires another class be taken first, otherwise I could just overload myself in the Winter and cut Fall from my needs entirely. If I can get them to let me do the Internship after everything else I can try and just stay for Spring/Summer instead of Fall and walk then.

I'm really darn close now. Close enough I should probably start looking at places to work after graduation.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

My dad is real big on facial hair, and they made him shave down to a 'stache. We were really worried that he'd have to shave that off, too. I've -never- seen my dad without his mustache. I think my mother has only seen him like that once.

This is really the most baffling policy the church has, in my opinion. My dad had a beard for a while and he looked distinguished and handsome. Then he got called back to the high council and off it came, back to pasty white chub face. Recently my brother has grown a beard and I almost took it as a sign of rebellion, because he's one of the most straight laced Mormons I know.

My sister was shocked that I wore a beard for my wedding...she asked, aren't you going to shave that off? Fuck no, my wife loves it and thinks I look like a twelve year old without it, but to my sister this formal event dictated that I shave. Why? It was groomed and clean, not some Gandalf beard...it's so weird to me.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

This is really the most baffling policy the church has, in my opinion. My dad had a beard for a while and he looked distinguished and handsome. Then he got called back to the high council and off it came, back to pasty white chub face. Recently my brother has grown a beard and I almost took it as a sign of rebellion, because he's one of the most straight laced Mormons I know.

My sister was shocked that I wore a beard for my wedding...she asked, aren't you going to shave that off? Fuck no, my wife loves it and thinks I look like a twelve year old without it, but to my sister this formal event dictated that I shave. Why? It was groomed and clean, not some Gandalf beard...it's so weird to me.

I thought it was incredibly dumb when they started making all full time temple workers shave them off. All these people's grandfathers with awesome beards who suddenly look very bizarre. Every depiction of every Biblical dude ever has them rocking some sweet facial hair, so why are modern dudes denied this?

 

[Fathead]

I wont shave my beard, and i dont care if they call me as an apostle, it stays.

 

[ronito]

I thought I had heard once that the reason for no beards was because of hippies and commies. But it might just be more mormon folklore.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

This article delves a bit into it. The whole thing just seems silly to me. I am all for grooming standards when it comes to professionalism and such, but style choices aren't an indication of moral character. It's like the male equivalent of don't wear pants.

 

[Fathead]

Think I should be concerned that the bishop tried to call me 3 times today?

 

[ronito]

Calling incoming!!
And you thought you were safe after your talk. hehehehehe.

Just let us know when you'll be starting as nursery leader.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I just hope they ask you to shave your beard...

 

[Fathead]

Zero attempts to talk to me since sunday.

 

[ronito]

Zero attempts to talk to me since sunday.

He'll be reminded when he sees you on Sunday.

 

[ronito]

So, if he hasn't pinged you now you're probably in the clear. Did you get a call?

 

[mik]

Finally got the official letter from the church that I'm an ex-mormon.

Felt so good.

 

[Yoritomo]

Wife just had the first, "Satan has a hold of you." from her mother last night.

Trying to help my wife up her boldness. I feel like I'm finally in a place where I can boldly declare my own disbelief without anxiety.

Ward party was this last Saturday and we decided to show up. It went well. We hung out with friends.

Here's what works for me now and it happened a couple of times at the ward party.

Someone: "Hey, Yoritomo we haven't seen you at church lately."
Me: "Yeah, we don't go to church anymore."

Someone: "Oh, well is something wrong, why don't you go?"
Me: "We found out it wasn't true."

I can finally do it without anxiety or getting stuck in a half hour conversation about feelings, church history, etc...

My wife just needs to get there. She wouldn't have gotten steamrolled by her mother on the phone last night and wouldn't keep getting stuck in uncomfortable conversations with random relief society sisters.

It can be hard though. We taught seminary, and as far as I can tell my wife is/was the quintessential relief society sister. First to make a meal, visiting teaching every month, and still is one of the most outgoing bubbly people I have ever met in my entire life. She's the person everyone always asks, "How do you do it?" I've finally gotten to the point where I don't feel like I need to fully justify and deconstruct my own beliefs so I can soften someone else's perceived betrayal.

Looks like we'll need to draw a line with my in-laws though.

 

[CorvoSol]

I thought I had heard once that the reason for no beards was because of hippies and commies. But it might just be more mormon folklore.

Mom says this all the time, that it just got started because of hippies and commies.

Anyway, Ronito's already read it, but I thought I'd share with you all the fun of First Sunday of a New Semester!

Which is to say the Stake President came to our Elder's Quorum and dove right into The Law of Chastity lesson, netting us this glorious and special quote:

"If you kiss her, kiss her standing up!"

The paradoxical push in this town to get people to fuck and yet prevent them from fucking never ceases to entertain me. I'm sorry, Stake President, but I intend to kiss all the girls I will be tooootally kissing this semester whilst hanging upside down like I'm goddamn Spider-Man.

Half my roommates are from out of nation, and the other two include a guy I've known for years and a dude who served in Brazil, too, so it looks like the Semester will be fun on that front.

Next hour I have Family Foundations! A required course on having families. As in you cannot graduate from this institution without taking this class, regardless of your major. And I mean, I can survive the normal-grade talk about how a family is a man and woman legally wed or what have you and I won't get my hackles raised about the Proclamation to the World because I'm cool with that stuff. Like, hip to that jive or whatever. But man oh man, this is Idaho and I know that we'll be going beyond the simple Church definition of marriage to talk about how gay marriage is destroying America and therefore mankind or something, and that stuff turns the gut.

And on the topic of homosexuality, we have a Chik-Fil-A here on campus! The kids here in town treat it like its crack cocaine but I just had it for the first time and honestly? Not super impressed. Between the line, the price, and the quality, I could do without. Probably patronize it on occasion anyway because the sheer lack of variety in this place dictates it, but I'm not going to spend that kind of time in that line again, that's for sure.

 

[Fathead]

So, if he hasn't pinged you now you're probably in the clear. Did you get a call?

No. I think I know why he called though. My wife let some family stuff spill and i think hes genuinely concerned about me.

 

[ronito]

Concerned as in "Fathead are you ok?"
or as in "Fathead, I hear you're a god hating atheist."?

 

[Fathead]

Are you ok, since your uncle who was in the bishopric of his ward committed suicide and i just heard about it even though it was a month ago?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Are you ok, since your uncle who was in the bishopric of his ward committed suicide and i just heard about it even though it was a month ago?

Sorry to hear that man, best wishes and all. I know it's tough to lose family like that.

 

[ronito]

Are you ok, since your uncle who was in the bishopric of his ward committed suicide and i just heard about it even though it was a month ago?

My condolences man. Hang in there.

 

[Doodis]

Are you ok, since your uncle who was in the bishopric of his ward committed suicide and i just heard about it even though it was a month ago?

Your uncle wasn't in Idaho, was he? A coworker of mine had a friend whose dad killed himself there recently.

 

[Fathead]

From idaho, yes. He died in ut, though.

My family is extremely complicated. Im not anything but angry about it, which is sad in and of itself.

 

[ronito]

So possible new development? Missionaries in Peru are reporting that new converts need to pay something (either donation or fast offering or unofficial tithe) before being baptized.

http://www.nearingkolob.com/new-mormons-converts-must-pay-baptized/

Probably just a crazy mission president. But I don't like it.

 

[Yoritomo]

So possible new development? Missionaries in Peru are reporting that new converts need to pay something (either donation or fast offering or unofficial tithe) before being baptized.

http://www.nearingkolob.com/new-mormons-converts-must-pay-baptized/

Probably just a crazy mission president. But I don't like it.

As a TBM missionary, if this had happened on my mission I would have refused to comply, and would have actively agitated amongst the missionaries to also not comply.

Hell I was non-compliant over numbers, I might have started an armed insurrection if they had tried to pull something like this.

I'm skeptical. I can understand how this might have happened, but I don't know enough about church welfare programs in other countries to understand why this requirement might exist.