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[Makonero]

She called the police. Then ATF. After that, the FBI.

Janet Delana was desperate to stop her mentally ill adult daughter from buying another handgun.

Finally, Delana called the gun shop a few miles from her home, the one that had sold her daughter a black Hi-Point pistol a month earlier when her last disability check had arrived.

The next check was coming.

Delana pleaded.

Her daughter had been in and out of mental hospitals, she told the store manager, and was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. She had tried to kill herself. Her father had taken away the other gun, but Delana worried that her daughter would go back.

”I'm begging you," Delana said through tears. ”I'm begging you as a mother, if she comes in, please don't sell her a gun."

An hour after leaving the gun store, Weathers was back home where her father sat at a computer with his back to her.

She shot.

Weathers planned to kill herself next but told a 911 operator: ”I can't shoot myself. I was going to after I did it, but I couldn't bring myself to it."

Delana lost Tex, her husband of nearly 40 years, and her daughter, who was charged with murder. And beneath her anguish, Delana seethed.

Delana sued the Odessa Gun & Pawn shop for negligence in the June 2012 sale and won a decision at the Missouri Supreme Court that said that nothing in federal law barred Delana's type of lawsuit. Under state law, the court ruled that dealers can be held liable if they should have known a buyer was dangerous. Last fall, with a trial set to start in January in the wrongful death case, the gun shop settled with Delana, saying it had followed the law and done nothing wrong.

”I can't just go by what a phone call says," Dady said during a deposition. ”If the person that comes in . . . passes the background check, I can sell them a gun."

When will we admit that the system is fucking broken? This is absurd and absolutely could have been avoided.

More here.

 

[yanipheonu]

Not the America they deserve, but the one that was asked for.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

“If the person that comes in . . . passes the background check, I can sell them a gun.”

That moral responsibility.

 

[zethren]

My heart broke, reading that...

Fuckin awful... And fuck that gun shop owner, for real. Yeah sure, the current law doesn't forbid you from selling the gun to her. But use common sense. You have some form of morality and judgement in your pea-brain, I assume?

 

[Makonero]

That moral responsibility.

The buck stops somewhere else.

 

[Maxim726X]

That moral responsibility.

Well, can they refuse if someone passes a background check?

 

[Durrzerker]

Well, can they refuse if someone passes a background check?

Yes, store owners have a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

 

[Akuun]

That fucking piece of shit of a shop owner.

Shrugging off a death that he enabled because he wanted another sale. Fuck.

 

[Ashhong]

Well, can they refuse if someone passes a background check?

Of course.

 

[Hagi]

The dealer's response is pretty fucking heinous.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

fuck gun culture tbqh

 

[Lumination]

I kind of agree with the gun store. You can't just obey some random phone call and deny a sale to a customer. If they pass the checks, you don't necessarily know about their mental state under the surface. The mother should have gone to the store with proper documentation and the request. Even then, it's at the owner's discretion (though I'd argue he has a moral obligation).

The real answer here is that the government is not mandating any sort of check for mental conditions.

 

[jmdajr]

Now continue the American tradition, and sue.

edit: damn nevermind.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Yes, store owners have a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

This. The fuck. You can sell guns on the honor system. But can't not sell guns on the honor system? Meaning take the moms word for it and don't make the sale. What a piece of shit.

 

[WormBoi]

Yes, store owners have a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

This doesn't sound right.

 

[Acorn]

Heartbreaking. They are guilty of manslaughter regardless of the law and hope it is on their conscience to the grave.

 

[fredrancour]

Well, can they refuse if someone passes a background check?

Yes. Those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs in many businesses? That applies to pretty much any reason you choose not to do business with someone other than refusing to serve in ways that have been ruled discrimination. "your mother begged us not to" and "we have been told you may do harm with our product" are not discriminatory.

 

[John Kowalski]

When the context is rich with potential for bad things to happen, it only takes one slightly less ethical action to cause all kinds of horror.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I kind of agree with the gun store. You can't just obey some random phone call and deny a sale to a customer. If they pass the checks, you don't necessarily know about their mental state under the surface. The mother should have gone to the store with proper documentation and the request. Even then, it's at the owner's discretion (though I'd argue he has a moral obligation).

The real answer here is that the government is not mandating any sort of check for mental conditions.

Why even risk it? There's no epidemic of fake calls to gun stores to infringe on someone gun rights.

That being said someone like her should be reported into the system to not be able to purchase a firearm.

 

[GhaleonEB]

And Trump just rolled back rules from the last administration, to ensure that as many people with mental illness as possible can buy guns. It's just dangerous and horrifying. I can't even imagine going through this, and the entire system is wired to escape culpability.

 

[zethren]

This doesn't sound right.

But they still can refuse anyone.

That doesn't protect them from what the refused customer might do in retaliation to the refusal of service, though.

In any case, the gun shop owner should have refused the sale. The blood is on his hands as well.

 

[Sephzilla]

Well, can they refuse if someone passes a background check?

Yes.

Stores can, for example, refuse to sell alcohol to someone who is clearly intoxicated. A store should be able to refuse selling a gun to someone even if they pass a background check.

 

[5taquitos]

This doesn't sound right.

Of course it's right. Any business can refuse service to anyone. Ever had a bartender tell you you're cut off?

 

[Gentleman Jack]

This doesn't sound right.

What

 

[robosllim]

That fucking piece of shit of a shop owner.

Shrugging off a death that he enabled because he wanted another sale. Fuck.

Just trying to get into his mind here... A strong supporter of the second amendment says that everyone has the right to own a gun. What if the girl needed it for defense? What if the woman on the phone was just some overbearing parent or even a delusional liberal neighbor who had no right getting in the girl's business?

That said, no one who's been in and out of mental hospitals should be passing a background check. This should've been prevented, but I don't blame the shop owner here.

 

[nicanica]

How dare this mother infringe on her daughter's rights to by a gun....

 

[off duty ninja]

Yes, store owners have a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

I don't think so actually. Not when we have so many laws to protect against discrimination in this country. If you can't choose not to bake a cake for a gay wedding I doubt you could get away with not selling a gun because someone called and told you the person was crazy.

Not that I agree with this notion but I don't see the difference legally speaking. People with Disabilities are a protected class even if the disability in this instance should disqualify them from the service provided.

The reality is that just having mental illness doesn't disqualify you from owning a gun. I believe it requires a court order of mental incompetence (don't know the right name but you get the idea) in order for mental illness to actually prevent you from buying a firearm.

 

[WormBoi]

But they still can refuse anyone.

That doesn't protect them from what the refused customer might do in retaliation to the refusal of service, though.

Ah, well that makes sense then.

 

[Sephzilla]

Yes, store owners have a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Not entirely true. You cant just straight up discriminate, for example.

 

[Wood Man]

Did the background check not show she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenic?

 

[platakul]

Just trying to get into his mind here... A strong supporter of the second amendment says that everyone has the right to own a gun. What if the girl needed it for defense? What if the woman on the phone was just some overbearing parent or even a delusional liberal neighbor who had no right getting in the girl's business?

That said, no one who's been in and out of mental hospitals should be passing a background check. This should've been prevented, but I don't blame the shop owner here.

Yep. Don't want to be in the business of denying people their constitutional rights. Thats a good way to end up in the national news too

 

[DECK'ARD]

Horrible story.

 

[Lumination]

Why even risk it? There's no epidemic of fake calls to gun stores to infringe on someone gun rights.

That being said someone like her should be reported into the system to not be able to purchase a firearm.

It's not about risk. Who just obeys random phone calls they get? It's an odd thing to expect a store to do, especially without any sort proof.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Did the background check not show she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenic?

They don't report diagnosis into the NICS system. Only if you've been committed against your will or have been adjudicated mentally incompetent by a judge. That's it.

Reporting is better in some states vs others. (Ex NY)

 

[Alavard]

It's not about risk. Who just obeys random phone calls they get? It's an odd thing to expect a store to do, especially without any sort proof.

The court disagreed.

 

[Makonero]

Yep. Don't want to be in the business of denying people their constitutional rights. Thats a good way to end up in the national news too

A man is dead because someone didn't heed a warning.

Also:

On Weathers's second visit to the shop in two months, Dady called in a background check through the FBI's national system. She passed and was on her way home with a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol.

Odessa Gun & Pawn did not always do everything by the book, according to ATF records made public after a records request from Delana's lawyers. Over eight years starting in 2006, ATF inspectors dinged the store for a long list of violations of federal gun laws and regulations.

The company was cited for failing to run background checks, for not complying with the three-day waiting period for delayed background-check results and for selling firearms to people who indicated on federal forms that they were not the true purchasers of the gun.

In a letter to ATF's Kansas City field office in January, Delana's lawyers say the office knew that the store ”had a record of willful violations of the gun laws that are supposed to keep America safe." They fault ATF for ”failing to take appropriate action" that can include the revocation of a dealer's license.

License revocations are rare. ATF pulled or denied less than 1 percent of licenses based on inspections conducted in 2015, according to statistics from the bureau, which declined to comment on the Odessa store's track record.

So the shop didn't give a fuck and still doesn't.

 

[AtomskEater]

You CAN sell them a gun, but should you? Stores always reserve the right to refuse service.
On the other hand, why did her mental health history not show up on the background check?

They don't report diagnosis into the NICS system. Only if you've been committed against your will or have been adjudicated mentally incompetent by a judge. That's it.

Reporting is better in some states vs others. (Ex NY)

Huh... that's interesting.

 

[off duty ninja]

Did the background check not show she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenic?

Simply being diagnosed with a mental illness is not going to disqualify you from buying a firearm. There has to be an actual court order on top of the diagnosis in order for that to be the case.

I am not an expert on this but have done some research to learn more about my own rights. I could be wrong but this is what I have found.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

It's not about risk. Who just obeys random phone calls they get? It's an odd thing to expect a store to do, especially without any sort proof.

Gun stores when someone calls stating someone has a serious mental ilness? It's happened before. Why this store decided to ignore her is beyond me. The gun store has no moral obligation to make a sale.

Err on the side of fucking caution.

 

[John Kowalski]

Just trying to get into his mind here... A strong supporter of the second amendment says that everyone has the right to own a gun. What if the girl needed it for defense? What if the woman on the phone was just some overbearing parent or even a delusional liberal neighbor who had no right getting in the girl's business?

That said, no one who's been in and out of mental hospitals should be passing a background check. This should've been prevented, but I don't blame the shop owner here.

No one needs to take the whole blame, but the man was placed such that he could have changed the outcome of the sale, and thus represents an integral part of the problem. Problem being that capital profit is being put before the lives of those who buy and live near guns, which results in completely unnecessary and avoidable accidents, some fatal.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Did the background check not show she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenic?

Yeah that's ridiculous...

 

[Tranqueris]

When will we admit that the system is fucking broken? This is absurd and absolutely could have been avoided.

More here.

4+ years, at least on the federal level.

 

[robosllim]

A man is dead because someone didn't heed a warning.

Also:

So the shop didn't give a fuck and still doesn't.

Alright, the shop sounds a bit shitty. I'll admit I don't totally support my original argument, but it's possible to imagine an alternate headline: "Woman murdered by abusive father after he blocks her gun purchase." Or you know, something snappier probably. I'm no newsman.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

It's not about risk. Who just obeys random phone calls they get? It's an odd thing to expect a store to do, especially without any sort proof.

What good is a background check if you don't take a mother's concern seriously and follow up on it? It's not unheard of for those with past mental health issues to be denied a firearm by owners who do their due diligence.

 

[Lumination]

The court disagreed.

I read the article, yes. The court's decision was merely about whether or not the lawsuit was valid. The store owner settled. I disagreed with his decision because I didn't think he was in the wrong. What's your point?

Gun stores when someone calls stating someone has a serious mental ilness? It's happened before. Why this store decided to ignore her is beyond me. The gun store has no moral obligation to make a sale.

Err on the side of fucking caution.

Is that a common enough occurrence that there's an unspoken procedure? I don't know, I'm not familiar with that area at all.

 

[Somnid]

It's not about risk. Who just obeys random phone calls they get? It's an odd thing to expect a store to do, especially without any sort proof.

Like everyone? Call in a bomb threat to an airport, or call your local elementary school saying someone's going to shoot it up. You'll get a response, trust me, because that's the reasonable thing to do.

 

[chromatic9]

Why wouldn't her diagnosis come under checks?

Also what's stopping her going to another gun store if denied due to the mums plea? Nothing.

 

[Ac30]

... didn't they just repeal an Obama-era rule on selling guns to the mentally ill?

Disgusting.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The system is broken beyond putting any sort of individual culpability on this one gun store owner.

 

[Lumination]

Like everyone? Call in a bomb threat to an airport, or call your local elementary school saying someone's going to shoot it up. You'll get a response, trust me, because that's the reasonable thing to do.

That's a good point. You're absolutely right about that. I might be trying to treat the gun store too much like a regular store.