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Mother who fled UK for Syria (and IS) with five children 'wants to come home'
- Thread starter Miles Quaritch
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The word you're looking for is "indulge", not "divulge".
This post is emblematic of what makes me uncomfortable about you though. Whether or not you love your country is completely irrelevant. Whether or not you believe a traitor should be exiled completely is irrelevant. Those things only matter if you can answer the relevant question "is this woman a traitor?". The evidence presented at least in this one news article doesn't support any of your conclusions about her intentions to "blow you up". We can go through your two main claims if you like.
You don't have any evidence to support either of these claims. She explicitly denies the first and (she intended to join ISIS and support their cause) and there's literally nothing to motivate the second.
Taking the kids was obviously a bad decision but we can explain it in a million ways. Maybe she didn't have anyone to leave them with? I don't know about her marriage, maybe she believed she wouldn't be able to convince her husband to come home but the children might be able to?
I mean, keeping the kids out of the UK is emphatically worse for the kids. If they are found by ISIS not they'll either be killed or taking as sex slaves or conscripted as fighters.
Throughout, you're appealing to fear and emotion and assumption and drawing severe conclusions from little or no evidence.
Commanders? How do you know she was living with commanders?
velociraptor
Junior Member
Clearly only white children are deserving of sympathy.
What if you generally hate kids?
That was my mistake, I quoted someone else in the thread. I just went through the article again and didn't see any mention of that.
Edit:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176368145&postcount=119
He quoted the Sunday Times.
Edit 2:
Here's the article, which indeed mentions it:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/jihadists/article1597159.ece
you're the second person to play the race card. I guess if all else fails, play the white card.
Miles Quaritch
Member
It's not like the thread is full of much reason anyway. Playing the race card is just a further example of that.
How many white people of British heritage do you see mentioned in that article? None. We only have the people that were mentioned. This has nothing to do with race.
Wickerbasket
Member
You know, if you run off to join a terrorist group, I'm not going to be surprised that the UK doesn't let you back in.
I feel terrible for the kids though, the parents' bad decisions have effected all of them negatively. I wouldn't be against bringing the kids back and putting them with a foster family, but I doubt the mom would want to do what's best for her kids.
Well, I hope they enjoy their new life in Turkey.
I feel terrible for the kids though, the parents' bad decisions have effected all of them negatively. I wouldn't be against bringing the kids back and putting them with a foster family, but I doubt the mom would want to do what's best for her kids.
Well, I hope they enjoy their new life in Turkey.
So she was. Unfortunately I can't get the whole Sunday Times piece, it cuts off after "She said the final straw was when the US-led coalition bombed the house where they were living, killing seven Isis commanders and members of their families." for non-subscribers. I wonder how she comes to live with ISIS commanders.
Miles Quaritch
Member
This isn't race nor is it about reacting to this story with emotion and coming up with all kinds of fanciful and ludicrous claims of her coming back to blow you up or her kids blowing up someone else's kids.
Or claiming that her 12 year daughter will be some bitter sleeper agent who will strike when the time is right.
What we have is people being okay with her three daughters potentially being taken as child brides and raped and eventually sold like cattle (all of which is well documented as things IS does) and her two sons used as cannon fodder by IS.
And then there's the claims she's not British just because she's a British National and not a British citizen. Oh and how can we forget all the wonderful comments about not wanting to spend precious resources on bringing them home and trying her in a court of law.
Better to let her die at the hands of IS and have her children become slaves.
She dug her own grave by making the choice to go over there. As I, and several others have said, she will get no sympathy from me.
Wickerbasket
Member
Sometimes people have to deal with the consequences of their actions and decisions.
Unfortunately, this women's actions have affected all of her kids.
I personally think the UK should try and help her kids, but I can see why someone would think they shouldn't have to considering she chose to put her children in that dangerous situation by choice.
A lot of shitty people have kids, and I imagine a lot of bad things happen to those kids because of the terrible decisions their parents make.
Indrid Cold1
Member
Pot, kettle, black.
The kids shouldn't be left to deal with those consequences. It's always left up to the non shitty people to do something to help them it if they can, because... empathy. This case is no exception.
Wickerbasket
Member
Sure, but then you have to remember that there are kids who are suffering the consequences of their parents actions all over the world and that these kids are no different. Should we be extracting the kids of every ISIS member?
I personally believe the children in this case should be helped purely based off the fact that they're British and I believe the government has a responsibility for them.
The woman though? She can stay where she is. She made her own bed to lie in.
So where do muslims get there information about the world from if they don't listen to the (Western) media? Are they listening to Islamic new stations Are Islamic newstations praising ISIS? If their news source is social media, aren't the horrible things that ISIS do being spoken about on social media as well? If they're getting their news from other muslim friends and families, are these muslim friends and families telling them that ISIS are a great set of people? I thought that the majority of muslims detested ISIS. You would think the majority of what they would tell her about ISIS is bad since they're so against it.
Marc
Member
I am sure you have adopted many kids from poor countries in similarly awful conditions, as well as support your country taking in every child in horrible circumstances. Or not, because that's impossible.
People are talking like these kids are entitled to a good life, like everyone is... in a perfect world that would be true. But even in the best countries in the world that isn't true, many kids are horribly treated. The general public care more about lions than they do a kids suffering. And trying to be the worlds saviour often does more damage in ways you couldn't anticipate.
Even in this case, some are saying take the kids and leave her. Well that's pretty fucking horrible, even when the mother is a zealot, to take away a kids mother and has a large impact on a kid. They may not get the adoption and end up stuck in a shitty system until their adult life. And it is not like those kids are not mistreated in that system, they're vulnerable and as such are easy prey to sickos. Known a few people in that system and they were not right, and had suffered abuse. Not ISIS levels obviously but its not like they're living a happy life, and had often tried to end it.
Not an easy answer but I think if you show the consequence in this instance, you save more families down the road. Fathers/Mothers would have second thoughts on seeing how things can turn out. A case of needs of the many over the few, which is easy to say is heartless but can be the best of bad options available.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
This is like reading two extremes. She's a bomb chucking terrorist or she's an innocent lamb.
Yup sounds to me like she willfully aided ISIS with material support. She gets the choice to go back to the UK with a sizeable prison term and the loss of parental rights, or come up with her own solution.
Her deathbed conversion on the nature of the Islamic State is laughably transparent. Poor fucking kids of course she had to ruin 5 lives in addition to her own.
jim-jam bongs
Member
C'mon Dave, I know your views on Islam in Britain lean more Daily Mail than Guardian, but sometimes an olive-branch wins battles over a sword. If the family is left where they are, those kids are either going to end up killed or indoctrinated by fascist cretins, if they're repatriated then that's five fewer potential Jihadists to deal with later. It makes sense.
well from a strategic point of view, the best course of action is to use this as best we can. lemons into lemonade and all that. If each of these kids grows up to tell all their friends about the time their mom almost ruined their life by taking them off to join the Islamic Radicals, they become more of a bogeyman. Which isn't such a bad deal, is it?
Right now you got teenagers, young kids, and you can remember being that young and eager right? Young stupid kids looking for something to believe in and some new novel and pure life. Back in the days kids would run off to the big city or run off with the circus or jump on a ship. These kids are being sold the ISIS lie on social media and they're running off to join the jihad. Adventure, manhood, and plus God will reward them for their troubles in this life and the next? Fuck, dude.
Anyway, I understand that empathy only goes so far. But unless they've taken a life or put someone in danger, I can have plenty of empathy for making a mistake in a situation like this for her kids. Maybe if we want to look at it like she walked out of the golden gate to run with the barbarians with bombs, and now she has to live with her error (or not)we can. But is it really just as simple as that?
Miles Quaritch
Member
And so did her kids?
We can do something to help her kids and we should because we're not like her and the people she was out there with. We're better than she is, we shouldn't stoop to her level and punish her kids for her mistakes.
Baki
Member
Fenderputty
Banned
If the Children are natural citizens then they should be let back and helped. They had no choice in the matter. The mother should fuck right off IMO.
I agree, that's what i've been saying. These are our british kids so I feel it's our responsibility to return them to safety.
CadetMahoney
Member
gubment can have their cake and eat it.
Just say you're "looking into it" or whatever, this resolves any British citizenship issues that may come back to haunt them, and resolves any human rights (for the kids) issues.
But of course that's just lip-service and secretly just want them to "dissappear", do nothing really and just wait it out.
Profit.
Just say you're "looking into it" or whatever, this resolves any British citizenship issues that may come back to haunt them, and resolves any human rights (for the kids) issues.
But of course that's just lip-service and secretly just want them to "dissappear", do nothing really and just wait it out.
Profit.
"I don't want them damn kids in my country! What if they grow up and bomb my kids? I'd rather have these kids get raped by ISIS than take that risk!"
We have people still trying to defend 2 adults who made a threat to kill potentially dozens of kids in Boston as it was all a misunderstood joke or maybe they were going to go range shooting etc.
These people are frankly dangerous as they are willing to go to extreme delusion to allow dangerous people to get the benefit of the doubt
Why don't you read this for me.
Red Liquorice
Member
My ruling would be bring the kids back and put them in to care or with family, she can stay there and never be allowed to step foot on British soil again, or come back and go to jail for 25 years, her choice.
Hey I might be late to the thread, but this right here does not solve any problems. In fact it lets these sick individuals to gather together away from people who might have helped them and away from governments who can at least try to stop them from arming themselves only so they can plot in peace. The answer isn't to push people out a disenfranchise them, it's to treat the world and all it's people as ALL of our responsibilities. Education, medical and mental treatment, and opportunity is what will really end terrorism. Oh and sometimes a few select people might have to die, but that kinda ruins my touchy reely sentiment,
Miles Quaritch
Member
Such a weird story. Having the Anarchist cook book is enough to get hit with a terror charge?
She didn't actually plan or even allude to doing anything, she just had the book? Maybe the story is missing some vital information.
Wow I didn't realize Australia have outlawed certain books, that's disappointing.
Miles Quaritch
Member
The Australia story is a different, equally bizarre story.
The anarchist cookbook girl was charged in the UK.
Read it again, it lists more than just that. It wouldn't surprise me if some info is purposefully withheld in cases of this nature though.
Oh really? cause I just Wikipediaed the list of all banned books and it only stated that it was illegal in Australia, I'm going to do a little more research now . .
Miles Quaritch
Member
Ah, okay. I thought these were part of the cookbook...(I didn't notice the and)
And yeah, hopefully we get more because that doesn't seem like a lot to hit someone with an immediate custodial sentence with. Maybe she was actively making a bomb or gathering the ingredients?
Huh. Surprised it's banned, isn't it sold on Amazon?
Miles Quaritch
Member
Isn't that referencing the Australia story?
So you're saying counter-propaganda can't work to... counter propaganda... but instead the thing to do is exile/keep out people who may believe the propaganda?
The internet is a thing that exists dude. Where people are physically has no bearing on how their message travels. It does make a massive difference to their security of course.
...
In any case she and her kids are British and so British laws should apply.
What i really like to believe to be the right course of action:
Help the children, lock her up and do everything to get radical islam out of her system so she can later explain and warn other idiots what radical islam truly entails.
If anyone ever gets even a whiff of radicalization from her again lock her up for live or throw her out of the country.
But what i actually think if i look at the real world :/ yeah:
Just help the kids don't even bother with her.
What she did would be treason for any other crazy group that wants to demolish your political system in your country, perpetrated a genocide!!, has child soldiers, organized slavery, paedophilia and torture. Why does radical islamic organizations and its followers get treated differently? It is treason as simple as that.
Actions have consequences we teach that everyone why does this suddenly not apply to returning jihadis??
Also someone should really do something about radicalization in jails that turn inmates into jihadis pretty please.
Help the children, lock her up and do everything to get radical islam out of her system so she can later explain and warn other idiots what radical islam truly entails.
If anyone ever gets even a whiff of radicalization from her again lock her up for live or throw her out of the country.
But what i actually think if i look at the real world :/ yeah:
Just help the kids don't even bother with her.
What she did would be treason for any other crazy group that wants to demolish your political system in your country, perpetrated a genocide!!, has child soldiers, organized slavery, paedophilia and torture. Why does radical islamic organizations and its followers get treated differently? It is treason as simple as that.
Actions have consequences we teach that everyone why does this suddenly not apply to returning jihadis??
Also someone should really do something about radicalization in jails that turn inmates into jihadis pretty please.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Exactly. Sticking to the rule of law is the logical, ethical thing to do, and will broadly weaken or even counter attempts to radicalize and sow disunity within society. Moreover, condemning children who are your fellow countrymen to living in IS-occupied territory as a deterrent to others is simply morally repugnant.
Not sure what you mean, it was between two teens, so relates to both stories.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Don't mind me, I was confusing the two.
xKilltheMx
Member
I think is probably the most disgusting thing I've read from SmokeyDave. Now I see what people mean when they say they've seen his hatred. What is this trash.
OT: Kids should be brought back, taken care of. Mom should be taken back as well, maybe jail sentence, maybe rehabilitation, maybe both. Have her publicly denounce ISIS, make a campaign out of it. Change some hearts but also keep a heavy eye on her.
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