Duracelllll
Member
lol, that's like saying a generator blew up at some point in history, therefore all car engines must blow up....
Motor Trend's 2013 Car of the Year is....
- Thread starter AstroNut325
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Why do people get so excited about electric cars? The electric isn't produced magically. The majority of the electric produced comes from the burning of fossil fuels.
You are either burning fuel in your car engine or at a power plant.
I feel like most people who hype electric cars have very little concept of how the energy is produced to fuel their vehicle.
However, there are several control and longevity advantages to an electric vehicle.
You are either burning fuel in your car engine or at a power plant.
I feel like most people who hype electric cars have very little concept of how the energy is produced to fuel their vehicle.
However, there are several control and longevity advantages to an electric vehicle.
congratulations, you can regurgitate all of Tesla's press releases. anyways my point was that no moving parts doesnt really mean its going to be free of problems.
It's easier to regulate energy usage when it's all coming from one place. Millions of ICEs are far less efficient than hundreds of power plants. That said, EVs give you options on how to power your vehicle. If you're in Vermont, you are virtually emissions free automatically, whereas in West Virginia you'd be driving a coal powered car. You can install a solar array on your house anywhere and run your car off of that. Options are good.
Duracelllll
Member
Yes and no. I pay extra to get much more of my electricity from renewables on my electricity bill and within the next 2 years (most likely next year) will have a good sized solar array on my roof. You'll find a lot of people who own electric cars already have solar arrays, they're not stupid, they know a lot of their electricity comes from coal. Electricity from coal to EV is also much more efficient than from petroleum.
You are severely overstating the capabilities of wind and solar power. Wind power would not survive without government subsidy. The equipment and maintenance costs outweigh the power output. Solar panels are very inefficient. You would not be able to run your car off a small solar array at your house.
PS I live in WV so you can see why my opinion may be skewed haha
Not that this car does not deserve it, but Motor Trend should top the list for least trustworthy automotive publication/"opinion".
MT basically exists as a space for advertisers and PR statements from the manufacturers. They themselves admit to being more of an entertainment publication than actual journalism.
MT basically exists as a space for advertisers and PR statements from the manufacturers. They themselves admit to being more of an entertainment publication than actual journalism.
You can absolutely run an EV solely on solar panels. Hence the draw paying nothing to operate an EV.
The Model S costs around $700 a year to operate (per the EPA) going 15,000 miles a year. Just a rough calculation, in NC you'd need a 472 square foot solar array to offset the Model S. So a little larger than 20x20 feet.
http://www.findsolar.com/index.php?page=rightforme
Finding a charging place is not at all guaranteed in AC. Even before Sandy took out all the power. You can't just assume going there "oh I'll find a place to charge." It's a CAR not a cell phone.
Find me such a charging station TODAY between here and AC.
Don't believe it until I see some test results. I trust basic chemistry more than marketing.
For me it would be alot more convenient.
1. Going to the gas station, waiting in line if there is one. Going out in the cold if its winter and going through the long ass menu, then fueling up.
Or..
2. Plugging it in an outlet when I get home.
Within the city though. I agree it would be pretty crappy if I had to drive far away and sleep over somewhere else.
That's why plug-in hybrids are better solutions. You can use electricity most of the time while the infrastructure and EV tech are still in their infancy.
The car has 3g connectivity, so yeah, it's basically a cell phone.
Not sure where you live specifically, but there are many charging stations in NJ http://carstations.com/.
The basic chemistry is that since the supercharger is using DC instead of AC, it knows how hot the batteries are getting while charging and therefore knows how much power to feed to the battery without coming close to the threshold that would damage the battery.
This is an issue, but an issue that is being mitigated. Batteries and electric motors are using fewer rare earth metals than what was being used in earlier hybrids and this will continue to be improved.
You obviously cant refute my point so you resort to strawmen arguments. It's not a cell phone because you just can't put it in your pocket and charge it anywhere with an outlet quickly and for free. Charging a car is a lot more inconvenient than charging a cell phone.
Unless it charges in 30 minutes and free, doesn't count. Not going to wait for hours in a mall parking lot. And there are a grand total of ZERO such stations in my state today.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about, otherwise you'd know that all battery chargers are DC. More sophisticated batteries like the ones in your laptop or tablet also know how hot they get as well. That's why they won't charge faster than a given rate, and that rate is a lot slower than 30 minutes. You can force them to charge fast, but that will just degrade them faster.
I wonder how many of these "call me when.." naysayers could even afford a tesla.
Call me when it can smoke an M5 and recharge in under 15 seconds!
Relax, rich people and the government will get the technology and infrastructure settled and eventually us poor folks will get to buy a Nissan eSentra that doesn't have 500 moving parts and doesn't run on exploding dinosaur goop.
Call me when it can smoke an M5 and recharge in under 15 seconds!
Relax, rich people and the government will get the technology and infrastructure settled and eventually us poor folks will get to buy a Nissan eSentra that doesn't have 500 moving parts and doesn't run on exploding dinosaur goop.
I can see the demand for Lithium spiking up too in the future when this takes off.
I misunderstood your cell phone comment, but yes, anywhere there is an outlet you can charge an EV. Not for free, or quickly, but it can be charged.
The point of charging stations is not to plug the car in and stand there waiting for it to finish. You can leave the car and do whatever it is you want to do. Get to your destination, plug the car in, go do what you made the trip for, and then go home.
No, charging stations are not all DC. The main reason EVs have on board chargers is to convert AC to DC for the batteries. The vast majority of charging stations are AC chargers. DC fast charging stations are the vast minority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Charging
ClassyPenguin
Banned
lol.
It's an enthusiast magazine and with that comes the baggage of just being a "PR mouthpiece" same as in gaming publications. It's the same tired arguments. I don't have any problem with it being "more entertainment" Their opinion is still valid and it's better to go by the review and what it says rather than just dismissing it.
AstroNut325
Member
China and Afganistan. But if the Prius is a clue we only need to replace batteries every 250,000 miles. As oppose to needing resources from the Middle East every week.
Unless it is as quick as gas, it's worthless.
What if whatever I want is to do is to get back on the road? How's a charging station going to help me then?
ALL batteries are charged using DC. That's why you have a charger or a power brick with your laptop, which converts the AC from wall outlet to DC. Now, where that AC/DC power conversion is being made is completely irrelevant to battery life. Your "Supercharger" is just like a giant power brick that's outside the car compared to the smaller power brick that's inside the car. The only reason the supercharger is external is because it would be to big and too heavy to place it in the car. Even if you put it in the car, nothing would be different, as a charger only draws as much current as it needs. Therefore this statement:
is a bunch of BS. All smart chargers (like the ones in your laptop or cell phone, or built into the tesla) that you plug in to AC power also know how hot the battery gets and only draw as much current as they need. There are very good reasons why cell phone/laptop manufacturers don't include higher current chargers, as they could do that easily, and that's to preserve battery longevity.duderon said:
Worthless to you, but not to the thousands of people that have put down five grand to reserve one. What if you want to take a road trip? Rent a car or fly. Or have a burger while you wait 30 minutes while you charge your sweet ass hypothetical electric car.
I'm not sure what your point is anymore, why would you worry about battery degradation when you say it's non-existent?
Tesla designed the supercharger to bypass the on board charger in the Model S in order to charge the batteries directly with 90 kW DC. The supercharging was designed with the car from the beginning so there wouldn't be battery degradation. It is a topic of frequent discussion here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...network/page74?p=192223&viewfull=1#post192223
I am calling our their car of the year piece, just MT as a whole.
None of those people who put deposits will use it as their only car since they can afford to have other cars in the household.
My points are.
1. A car like Tesla will never become mass market. No electric car will ever become mass market until the charging time problem is taken care of. As a toy for a few thousand rich people, it works.
2. You don't know about how electricity and battery charging works. Batteries that are optimized for 20A/40A charging can't suddenly take 200A/300A without any degradation. There is also the problem with these nonexistent charging stations and how the grid will cope with it. Electric energy is great but you can't store it well with current technology.
I'd definitely buy a Tesla and park it next to my Cayenne Turbo if I could afford it.
Stephen Colbert
Banned
If Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive teamed up to design a car, this would be it. And I mean that as a high complement.
I can't decide which is my favorite feature...
The massive touch screen for the entire dash console
Or the...
All Glass Retractible Roof that essentially makes this into a convertible.
I can't decide which is my favorite feature...
The massive touch screen for the entire dash console
Or the...
All Glass Retractible Roof that essentially makes this into a convertible.
It's a brand new car from a brand new company chocked full of emerging tech. You actually think the reliability is going to be awesome?
FUD? Perhaps you'd like to scroll up a couple of posts where I brought actual figures from the very publication that handed out this award.
I don't claim to be an expert on cars, but I've been told by people in the last two threads who - 1. allege they have numbers on their side but then have those stats reversed on them right in their face 2. believe that automotive journalists make good test drivers because they write for a publication 3. don't know the difference between a coupe and a sedan - that I "don't know shit", "know nothing", and my personal favorite, "think you're so fucking smart".
It isn't unfounded. First year models tend to have issues. A new manufacturer is going to have issues. Brand new technology is going to have issues. Put all of those together? You are likely to have issues.
Yep.
Test cars, which were scrutinized several times over during the build process, personally inspected, and had many components assembled/fitted by hand rather than machines on the line.
Less moving parts simply means less drivetrain pieces that could fail, but a car like this still has to contend with brake, suspension, body, and potentially more electrical/software issues. Lack of expertise out in the market means repairs are likely to be costly when we get a couple years down the road and things might not be covered by warranty. Heck, even in 5 years you probably wont be able to find anyone independently who will be even qualified to work on a Tesla outside of a dealer
Phoenix
Member
The cars are actually so simple that all of those old EV-1s and such that managed to survive the Great GM Purge are being maintained quite easily by their owners. While I don't want to oversimplify it, the vehicles have the relative mechanical complexity of a fair bumper car compare to anything based on ICE.
Phoenix
Member
That depends entirely on where you are located in the world and whether or not you have access to the supercharger network which is 100% solar powered.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
People are forgetting that cars like the Nissan Leaf exists.
It's becoming almost common place in SoCal.
It's becoming almost common place in SoCal.
They probably forget it because the Leaf is a slow ugly blob, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.
The Leaf does present a good solution for many people. I'm not surprised it's popular in Southern California.
Not as the only car in a household.
Why would it have to be? It makes for a good commuter car and most households have two cars so one could still be gas powered for really long trips.
AstroNut325
Member
Yup. It took many years for the gasoline infrastructure to become widespread. Accordingly it's going to take a while before the EV infrastructure to be widespread. But even now most people in the US commute less than 100 miles each day. And that constitutes 80-90% of driving done by a household. So yes it can be very beneficial to own one EV and one ICE car.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
You are uninformed. Tesla is currently, as in right now, building a network of Supercharger stations. They plan to have at least 100 in place by 2015, roughly evenly spaced so that you can drive up & down both coasts & cross country without fear of running out of charge.
Here's the website.
These chargers will be available for use by Tesla owners. If you get the 85kw battery pack, use is free. If you get the 65kw battery pack, you can pay a one-time fee and get free use of them. The stations will also be solar-powered, so their use of power from the grid will be minimal. The 45kw battery pack is not compatible with supercharger stations; but Tesla says that model is not meant for longer trips anyway.
Elon Musk is ESTABLISHING the infrastructure. He is the most important man in alternative fuel vehicles right now. Between the Model S and future Tesla car models, the Supercharger network, and Solar City he is making EVs possible. He gets my vote for Time Magazine's Person of the Year.
What sort of effect will supercharging have on the longevity of the battery? That would be my main concern with this otherwise cool idea.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
Read the facts page, scroll down to Battery & Charging sections. They state that the battery is optimized for nightly charging. I'm not sure what the effect of supercharging every 150 miles or so on a long trip would be, but I doubt they haven't thought about it.
There may be something in the forums on the website about it. Click on Enthusiasts at the top banner to find the Forums link.
You don't know much about solar energy if you think their use of power from the grid will be minimal. It'll take 7000 square feet of solar paneling and a perfect sunny day to charge a single Tesla. If we go by the picture and assume 4 cars, that's 28K sq ft of solar paneling required to be able to fully charge 4 Tesla's on a perfectly sunny day, before taking into account charging efficiencies (~85-90%). 28K square feet is 280x100, which is FAR LARGER than what you see in the illustration.
Don't fool yourselves, these supercharging stations will draw lots of power from the grid.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
You may very well be right. I'm going from Tesla's claims. Maybe you should read the press reports & articles about it, Musk may have answers for your concerns.
VanquishUK
Member
Shame It's American.
>
What would be smart is if they store energy while cars are being charged. The charging station won't be operating at max capacity most of the time.
Musk only cares about his customers and investors. He can't change the reality (physics) that solar power is not a good source of energy for high load applications. It's only good for generating small amounts of energy continuously as long as the weather is good, which is pointless when you don't have the means to store that energy cheaply and efficiently.
Storage is still the biggest problem in going all-electric for our energy needs. Electric storage is not feasible with the current technology we have.
Electric energy storage is both inefficient (but still much better than fuel cells) and hideously expensive. Those charging stations will only make sense if they are allowed to "sell" their power back to the grid at taxpayer subsidized high rates.
I think supercharging stations are more to make people feel better about owning electric cars than to actually provide a charging solution. Most people will charge their cars while at home, during off peak hours when power plants are wasting potential output.
They will be good for road trips or "oh shit I forgot to plug in the car last night" situations, but not much else.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
It is not just about renewable, though that can be a long term goal. It is also about choice. Imagine how ridiculous it would be if homes could only be run with oil. Instead, homes are run on coal, natural gas, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, oil, and other stuff. Choice is good for the consumer and allows the owner to mitigate fluctuations in supply and price. Electric does provide a pathway to 100% renewable but that will be a really long term path.
The first statement is false, given that there are people that have deposits down that can barely afford the Model S. There's no way they'll be able to afford a second car.
Do you consider the Prius mass market? What about the Porsche Cayenne? The prices of the Volt and Leaf have dropped this year and sales have gone up. Tesla has plans for a mass market electric to be released in 2015/2016 that will be around $30k. I look forward to your redefinition of "mass market."
The Model S and the supercharger network were designed as one, it is not like the other electric cars that were designed for mostly level 2 charging. The 85 kWh Model S has an 8 year / unlimited mile warranty. Tesla has no limits on supercharging under the warranty. Do you think they planned on replacing every battery pack that uses the superchargers more than a few times a year?
According to businessweek, sales of the plug-in prius for the year through September was 7734. Sales of the Leaf, 5212. Both of those are "mass market", and both are not selling so hot. The Volt, and other hybrids fare far better than the EVs.
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