Support NeoGAF

[Willco]

Regardless of how you feel it was shot, and I didn't dislike it, Batman should not be heavily choreographed with long martial arts sequences.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

See, now you're saying that the people I know are idiots when it comes to getting anything than getting entertained. You're saying that if people DON'T think the way the fights in Batman Begins were filmed, then they're just morons who don't put any thought into what they are watching. You're assuming that I don't know anyone who's "in to" movies, because nobody who is would accept the fight scenes the way they were filmed.

And that's simply not true, on any level.

Point out to me where I said that your friends are idiots?? Point out to me where I said that you don't know anyone who is "in to" movies? I said no such thing, and I apologize if you took what I said to mean that. In fact, I was acknowledging that I have friends that agree with you, but, IN MY CASE, those friends of mine are ones who don't tend to analyze this shit the way some of us do. They enjoyed Batman Begins very much, and really have no idea what I'm talking about when I say that i don't like the way the fight scenes were handled.

Don't put words into my mouth please.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

I agree, though I think it's used in Batman Begins to represent the stealth of the character. The audience can't see his moves because neither can his opponent. Maybe it's a copout, but it's the only thing I can think of. Personally I would have liked to see more zoomed out fight sequences, but ultimately it's the director's vision, love it or leave it.

 

[olimario]

Regardless of how you feel it was shot, and I didn't dislike it, Batman should not be heavily choreographed with long martial arts sequences.

You can choreograph a fight so it doesn't look like a dance. Somebody mentioned unleashed and I'll mention Bourne Identity. Both movies have wonderfully planned fights that don't look planned and are very brutal. That's how it should be done.

I agree, though I think it's used in Batman Begins to represent the stealth of the character. The audience can't see his moves because neither can his opponent. Maybe it's a copout, but it's the only thing I can think of. Personally I would have liked to see more zoomed out fight sequences, but ultimately it's the director's vision, love it or leave it.

I don't think Batman was trying to be stealthy during the fight with Rahs in the train.

 

[SteveMeister]

Point out to me where I said that your friends are idiots?? Point out to me where I said that you don't know anyone who is "in to" movies? I said no such thing, and I apologize if you took what I said to mean that. In fact, I was acknowledging that I have friends that agree with you, but, IN MY CASE, those friends of mine are ones who don't tend to analyze this shit the way some of us do. They enjoyed Batman Begins very much, and really have no idea what I'm talking about when I say that i don't like the way the fight scenes were handled.

Don't put words into my mouth please.

I do have a few friends who just go to the movies to be entertained and don't think much about the way it is shot. They haven't mentioned any flaws in the film either, including Katie Holmes. But my friends who are really into movies, the look and feel of them, and how they are shot, have all commented on the fight scenes.

The implication is there. And while I exaggerated, it was to drive home the point I've been trying to make. See my previous post, so I don't have to quote it again.

 

[suaveric]

For Bourne Supremacy, that's the way the director wanted to show things. He wanted it to be "real", as if it was the viewer in the middle of the fights and car chases. He used a handheld camera to do that and it worked, for what he set out to do. It was comepletely chaotic and hard to follow, just like a real life fight is.

Whether that makes for a good action movie is up for debate.

In Batman, like others have pointed out, there was never meant to be any long, drawn-out fights. "This is not a dance".

 

[Willco]

You can choreograph a fight so it doesn't look like a dance. Somebody mentioned unleashed and I'll mention Bourne Identity. Both movies have wonderfully planned fights that don't look planned and are very brutal. That's how it should be done.

Both movies you mentioned have fights go on way longer than they do in Batman Begins. He is fighting people for just seconds.

If Nolan pulls out the camera and gives you guys another choreographer for the sequel, people will still complain because he fights for just seconds and there wouldn't be enough fighting.

I thought it worked for Batman Begins and I certainly didn't mind it.

 

[Duck of Death]

I'm in the camp that thinks the handheld camera is used well in both The Bourne Supremacy and Batman Begins.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Both movies you mentioned have fights go on way longer than they do in Batman Begins. He is fighting people for just seconds.

If Nolan pulls out the camera and gives you guys another choreographer for the sequel, people will still complain because he fights for just seconds and there wouldn't be enough fighting.

I thought it worked for Batman Begins and I certainly didn't mind it.

Bourne Identity the fights were not even as short as batman begins figth scenes. I certainly would not complain abotu the length of the fights if i could actually see what actually happened.

well shaky cam is a pet peeve of mine so thats why i tend to notice it alot more thanmost ppl.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Regardless of how you feel it was shot, and I didn't dislike it, Batman should not be heavily choreographed with long martial arts sequences.

I agree that there shouldn't be long, heavily choreographed sequences either, except, perhaps in the case of when he is fighting another Master, as in Liam Neeson's character. I have no problem with the concept of the fights in Batman Begins, just the way they are shot and come across on film.

Stevemeister: Again, all I can say is sorry if you too what i wrote that way. There was actually no implications in what I wrote, and I was actually surprised when I read your reply. I was, in no way, thinking that you or any of your friends are idiots for feeling the way they feel. As I said earlier, I was actually conceding a point to you that I do know people who feel the same as you, but in the case of my friends, they are all people who think that I over analyze films too much anyway, and never really think about these kind of things.

 

[Willco]

Bourne Identity the fights were not even as short as batman begins figth scenes.

If you're trying to claim that the Bourne Identity has shorter fight sequences, then you're mistaken. My point is, there's not a lot of fight to choreograph. It's like, "WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU MAM!"

You're not really supposed to see much. That's the whole point.

 

[karasu]

Regardless of how you feel it was shot, and I didn't dislike it, Batman should not be heavily choreographed with long martial arts sequences.

It should be if he fights Bane, or a group of martial artist, or any ther skilled fighter there is. Like his fight with Kyotai in the animated series. He can't just sneak up and beat up everybody before they know what happens, and the comic tells you that. Of course he should take out random thugs as quick as whatever, but come on. Batman can't scare the majority of his enemies. Save that for the mobsters. Batman is like the number 2 martial artist in the world right?

Besides, in everything I've read about batmans fighting in BB, all of the brutality mentioned was referring to fight choreography and using a style of fighting and choreography thatw a smore brutal than what the recent trend has given us, not to rapid fire editing and the rest.

 

[Ristamar]

I haven't watched Batman Begins yet, but I'll echo some the camera complaints levied against The Bourne Supremacy. I understand the concept and desired effect, but I think it was often too severe and/or excessive.

 

[olimario]

If you're trying to claim that the Bourne Identity has shorter fight sequences, then you're mistaken. My point is, there's not a lot of fight to choreograph. It's like, "WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU MAM!"

You're not really supposed to see much. That's the whole point.

It's a movie and we're not supposed to see the fight between Batman and the main bad guy? This is a horrible trend and people supporting it need to re-evaluate their stance.

You can have short fights where everything is shown and what is shown looks real and looks nothing like a dance. There are some short, powerful fights in Bourne Identity.

 

[SteveMeister]

Stevemeister: Again, all I can say is sorry if you too what i wrote that way. There was actually no implications in what I wrote, and I was actually surprised when I read your reply. I was, in no way, thinking that you or any of your friends are idiots for feeling the way they feel. As I said earlier, I was actually conceding a point to you that I do know people who feel the same as you, but in the case of my friends, they are all people who think that I over analyze films too much anyway, and never really think about these kind of things.

It's all good

 

[whytemyke]

I have a theory about this kind of camerawork. Anyone here ever been in a fight? Cuz that's what its like when you're actually in a fight... everythings jumping around really fast and you never have time to really focus on anything at all.

 

[karasu]

Not when you're a skilled martial artists. It's called sinking the chi.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Not when you're a skilled martial artists. It's called sinking the chi.

I would agree with this. Before I started training martial arts, a fight did seems chaotic, out of control, and disorienting. Then, as I began to train, it got worse! :lol But after you've been at it for awhile, and things start to become more natural to you, it actually starts to feel like things are slowing down, and you can take in more of what's happening around you. Things become more controlled and you feel more at ease.

 

[SteveMeister]

But what about people WATCHING the fights?

 

[Dan]

But what about people WATCHING the fights?

Who cares. Film is better when it's actively engaging the viewer, not just forcing him or her to observe.*

*Unless that voyuerism is actually part of the engagement, ie. Rear Window.

Edit: Or is that part of your point? I'm losing myself between you two, since you've both got avatars with Yoda and his lightsaber.

 

[SteveMeister]

Who cares. Film is better when it's actively engaging the viewer, not just forcing him or her to observe.*

*Unless that voyuerism is actually part of the engagement, ie. Rear Window.

Edit: Or is that part of your point? I'm losing myself between you two, since you've both got avatars with Yoda and his lightsaber.

haha I didn't even think about that (avatars)

I think that it's up to the director to decide. I for one don't mind when directors choose to emphasize the chaotic nature of battle (Batman Begins), the beauty of highly skilled combatants (many martial arts films) or something in between. I also don't think that Nolan made the wrong decision in this regard for Batman Begins.

 

[Go Go Ackman!]

Dude, any movie post-matrix should at least allow the audience to see actors fighting, instead of the camera switching perspectives the instant a blow lands. God that's annoying.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

But what about people WATCHING the fights?

That's sorta the point I've been making. Watching the fight, you can actually see all that stuff going on. Watch a boxing match or a UFC fight, and with the camera pulled back, you can see the action. The people WATCHING the fight want to see it, and are not suceptible to the same issues as the person IN the fight. They don't equite, in my opinion, unless you are the type of person who can't follow a fight when watching it, and I do have some friends like that too.


Dan: For the record, I'm the Yoda who thinks the fights could have been shot better in Batman Begins. I do understand your comment about pulling you in and engaging you in the fight, but for me, that didn't happen in Batman because of a combination of things, one being the quick cuts and close-up, and the second being the darkness. Now, when they were fighting on the train, it was lit up, so you could follow it more, but the quick cuts, and close camera still made it hard to tell what the two masters were up to. That was probably the fight that I wanted to see the most. BTW, the ending of that seen is just killer, one of the best scenes I've seen in a long time.

 

[Archaix]

Even if the camera is moving, the term is fucking retarded. Why can't people say "handheld"?

Because handheld doesn't describe anything. Shaky cam is a condescending way of saying "Fuck you, director slash asshat"

Shaky cam it is.

 

[Particle Physicist]

i get the feeling that if that one review hadnt made a big stink about this, most people wouldnt have been bothered by it.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

i get the feeling that if that one review hadnt made a big stink about this, most people wouldnt have been bothered by it.

I haven't even read a single review, so I don't know which one you are referring to.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

Because handheld doesn't describe anything. Shaky cam is a condescending way of saying "Fuck you, director slash asshat"

Shaky cam it is.

:lol

 

[Escape Goat]

i get the feeling that if that one review hadnt made a big stink about this, most people wouldnt have been bothered by it.

I included this in my post after I saw the film and I'd never read a review of it.

 

[Dan]

Dan: For the record, I'm the Yoda who thinks the fights could have been shot better in Batman Begins. I do understand your comment about pulling you in and engaging you in the fight, but for me, that didn't happen in Batman because of a combination of things, one being the quick cuts and close-up, and the second being the darkness.

I can settle with that even if I didn't have an issue with those aspects. What really upsets me are the people who think long takes that provide a full view of the fight are always better than any other option. You know, the people who think The Matrix is the be-all end-all fight choreography and cinematography; the people who approach everything with blinders on. They suck.

 

[Escape Goat]

The approach taken to a fight should be taken with a purpose in mind. Nolan apparently did this because he wanted to have the "predatory animal" aspect to the fight. Fine, I'm all for it if it enhances a scene. But dont use it in EVERY fight, especially in the climactic battle. The whole movie has been building to this point, dont screw it up in a 30 second epileptic attack.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I included this in my post after I saw the film and I'd never read a review of it.

*jab* i said most. as in, easily influenced people like olimario */jab*

 

[Escape Goat]

*jab* i said most. as in, easily influenced people like olimario */jab*

YOU DIDN'T PUT "IMO" AT THE END OF YOUR POST!!!111one

 

[Prospero]

In the final fight in Batman Begins, the number of cuts and the tight focus are only part of the problem. The real problem is that the editing doesn't establish continuity from one shot to the next in many parts, so that you often can't tell where the two fighters are in relation to each other at any given moment, or whether a punch that's thrown in one shot has landed in the next. I can't interpret that as anything but careless direction and editing.

Look at the fight in the train compartment in From Russia With Love--a pre-MTV film, but it still manages to capture intense hand-to-hand combat in a claustrophobic space while still remaining coherent for the viewer.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I can settle with that even if I didn't have an issue with those aspects. What really upsets me are the people who think long takes that provide a full view of the fight are always better than any other option. You know, the people who think The Matrix is the be-all end-all fight choreography and cinematography; the people who approach everything with blinders on. They suck.

I agree with you here. And for the record, I hate wire-fu, except in rare cases where it makes sense. The Matrix was one of those cases, considering the nature of the story and Crouching Tiger is another considering Chinese Mythology. But there have been several Jet Li films that use wire-fu. WTF? The man is one of the most impressive martial artists on the planet, and you have use wire-fu to make him look good. Bah! I say!

 

[Shaheed79]

THANK YOU!

How could other people NOT notice that shit and how annoying it was?

I haven't read all the reply's but I hope that someone at least pointed out that this "affect" is always added in the editing room probably to disguise the flaws in the scenes. If it is a design choice it is an extremely poor choice. Now Batman has never been all about the fighting but to completely rob us of it isn't right either.

 

[miyuru]

I thought the fights were terribly recorded in Batman Begins. It was so closeup, and the cuts lasted for about 1-2 seconds at a time, it's just ridiculous.

They totally overdid it.

 

[Shaheed79]

After reading the replies I'm glad a lot of people agreed that the affect they used too sequence the fighting sucked or was very lacking. I thought I was alone in feeling that way in the other BB topics. And no I haven't read any stupid reviews.

 

[J2 Cool]

I thought it worked well in Batman Begins if they had a touch more variety. Sadly, the last fight where it took place didn't allow that. Kind of sucks but I really do expect more variety in the next one. If it weren't for the circumstances, I'd have expected a fight closer to their sword fight earlier on the ice. The way they shot the fights with the other guys and Batman worked really well though in my opinion.

 

[Error]

I think the "shakey cam" worked great in Batman Begins, there was no one in the movie, well except Ducard, that could challenge Batman that's why the fights didn't last more than 10 seconds so long drawn out fights were not going to work in this movie IMO and also ain't Batman a ninja? as far as I know ninjas tend to finish shit quickly they don't waste their time trying to look cool and having badass poses when finishing their opponents.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

We're not talking about the length of the fights at all, just the ability to see the action and the ways that Batman takes out his foes.

 

[Error]

We're not talking about the length of the fights at all, just the ability to see the action and the ways that Batman takes out his foes.

well to me the "shakey cam" worked in every scene it was used except.... the one in the monorail that was one fight where I was a little disappointed they could have pull the camera away at least a little

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

well to me the "shakey cam" worked in every scene it was used except.... the one in the monorail that was one fight where I was a little disappointed they could have pull the camera away at least a little

Yeah, I really wanted a payoff on that one too, and they didn't deliver. Shaky Cam in and of itself is not awful, but when you over use it, or when you combine it with the quickcuts in Batman Begins, it really becomes hard to follow the action and see what he is actually doing.

 

[SickBoy]

i get the feeling that if that one review hadnt made a big stink about this, most people wouldnt have been bothered by it.

To do another take on Kung Fu Jedi, I haven't even seen the movie, I was just commenting on the style itself. (and yeah, I saw your reply about oli

In my eyes, there comes a point when a fight doesn't even tell a story any more... and at that point, I wonder if it's a technique with any value.

It sounds like in Batman Begins (watch the spoilers folks, this isn't a Batman thread) it at least makes some sense as it sounds like most of the action is quick and brutal.

But what about movies where it's not, where there's a long (or modest-length) fight or action sequence happening and you get tight closeups and quick flashes of action. In a movie like the Bourne Supremacy, it almost works, because you're so tied to Bourne himself that there's some appreciation for the "experience this visceral event with Jason Bourne" aspect of it. And it's a good movie without the action.

In Star Wars Ep. 3, though, when all you see is tight flashes of lightsabres and the movie seems to be all about the action, I don't think it's so effective. It's a style, IMO, that's used a lot to mask a lack of choreography or any sort of planning for the fight other than character x beats up character y. There are worthwhile stylistic reasons for it at times, but I don't think most movies really prove they can pull it off -- because I think there needs to be some degree of substance for this sort of direction to work.

A lot of movies live and die on the quality of their most exciting scenes and tight, quick cuts don't cut it in any respect for anything that's propping itself up on action scenes. Of course, the best "action" movies are those where you could just hear punches off screen every time a fight happened and still be enjoyable...

 

[Ash Housewares]

couldn't be worse than RE Apocalypse

and it's Batman

BATMAN!!!

just be glad there isn't a "POW!" popping up after every punch

 

[etiolate]

I think in general, action movies of today could learn a thing or two from the camera work in the original Rollerball.

 

[DaveH]

Equilibrium had some extremely quick, brutal, but clear "fights" that could have been used. The Animated Series never tried to hide the action with extreme close-ups.

 

[Dan]

The Animated Series never tried to hide the action with extreme close-ups.

The Animated Series is a completely different ballpark beyond comparison. If you actually go and watch the combat in that you'd see how it would never, never work in live-action. Half the time Batman's just standing around waiting for someone behind him to deliver a sneaky punch and the other half Batman's diving for cover while idiot thugs shoot at the ground in front of him. In the main Batman thread I've talked about this. As awesome as Batman: TAS is, its effectiveness is completely hinged on the fact that it's animated and doesn't have to play by the rules.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

It's kind of crazy to use the animated series as an example of how to do the fights. They are good animated action sequences, but they don't carry the same weight as a live action fight, and they can do things that are truely outside the boundries of what is realistic.

BTW, in one of the other threads someone suggested that if Nolan didn't return to direct, that GAF should take over. I quickly called dibs on doing the fight sequences!

 

[Ash Housewares]

sorry but I have to vote against people with cgi lightsaber wielding yoda 'tars for coordinating fight sequences

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

sorry but I have to vote against people with cgi lightsaber wielding yoda 'tars for coordinating fight sequences

Too late. I called dibs!