Makes no sense, especially when you take the actual characters into context. Dredd didn't need a reason to start because it was everyday life. Raid is a life or death scenario for those characters. How "evocative" plot is, is such a subjective thing to ask for, and pretty ironic when the raid is almost the exact same plot and you give it a pass. Like Dredd isn't fleshed out by Urban's acting and the world he's in.
Movies that "elevate" their genre, ala Mad Max
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Makes no sense, especially when you take the actual characters into context. Dredd didn't need a reason to start because it was everyday life. Raid is a life or death scenario for those characters. How "evocative" plot is, is such a subjective thing to ask for, and pretty ironic when the raid is almost the exact same plot and you give it a pass. Like Dredd isn't fleshed out by Urban's acting and the world he's in.
I'm not giving Raid a pass lol.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'd say Mad Max FR re-elvated the genre. Smart, semi-deep action movies aren't new, but it's been a while.
I'm shocked Star Wars is mentioned. If anything, it lowered sci-fi, not elevated it. I love it, but it's 100% fluff.
I'm having a hard time thinking of movie examples, because "elevated" movies have been around a long time. The Godfather example was a good one.
Really I can think of a lot of examples in comics, like Watchmen, which took super-heroes more seriously than they ever had before.
I'm shocked Star Wars is mentioned. If anything, it lowered sci-fi, not elevated it. I love it, but it's 100% fluff.
I'm having a hard time thinking of movie examples, because "elevated" movies have been around a long time. The Godfather example was a good one.
Really I can think of a lot of examples in comics, like Watchmen, which took super-heroes more seriously than they ever had before.
Gnome Scat
Member
2001: A Space Odyssey is the biggest one I can think of.
People are obviously very passionate about this movie, why try to extinguish that flame? Anything that sparks such enthusiasm for the action movie genre or cinema in general is a good thing.
Monocle
Member
Fair enough, I guess, although there's always someone who drags on the movie from a misinformed place, and these arguments often seem to boil down to "It didn't work for me, so it can't be as well made as other people say it is." It's endless.
Nevermind, I should've known not to start as soon as you started name dropping Goddard.
in nerd culture mad max in 2015 is about as tiresome as the dark knight in 2008.
i really don't understand how mad max elevates anything, compared to let's say 2001 elevating science fiction. i mean it's a fun action film that's very lean, with a clear distinct eye and has a weird universe at odds with the institutional blandness of modern blockbusters and shared cinematic universes, but this is a genre that's existed as long as cinema and i don't really understand how it's massively different from the general (1926) or scores of other well made action films over the years. while often in response to slightly idiotic points, honestly i find the endless reaching to glorify the supposed richly textured visual storytelling and nuanced characterisation and to ascribe to it genuine thematic depth is to diminish what its main achievements are.
i really don't understand how mad max elevates anything, compared to let's say 2001 elevating science fiction. i mean it's a fun action film that's very lean, with a clear distinct eye and has a weird universe at odds with the institutional blandness of modern blockbusters and shared cinematic universes, but this is a genre that's existed as long as cinema and i don't really understand how it's massively different from the general (1926) or scores of other well made action films over the years. while often in response to slightly idiotic points, honestly i find the endless reaching to glorify the supposed richly textured visual storytelling and nuanced characterisation and to ascribe to it genuine thematic depth is to diminish what its main achievements are.
Nice try.
1. This list is specifically Kung Fu and Martial Arts movies, which is basically a genre on its own. It makes no mention of any western action movies of any other kind.
2. We have no way of knowing if the person who made the list likes Dredd, or if they like it better than any of these movies because they didn't list it at all.
True Savior
Member
You asked for action movies... And I have no idea about the taste of that person ,nor i even agree with that ranking. But all those Shaw Bros movies are better than Dredd. True Savior seal of approval !
RustyNails
Member
I fucking hate anything showing a strong female lead being written off as "feminist trite" without any explanation whatsoever. This bullshit needs to die in movies where the strong female is subject to the archetypes and whims of male audience. Was Aliens feminist trite? Terminator 2? By what subjective standard do you say Furiosa's story was peddling a trite feminist angle? The wasteland shown in the movie (as has been shown in all Mad Max movies) is a harsh break down of civilization. Men during the dawn of civilization treated women like chattel. Mad Max shows that when chips have fallen, we all resort to that base cromagnon in us all. Furiosa as an Imperator has absolutely gained Immortan Joe's trust to achieve the near deified rank she has and we can definitely underscore that she has done despicable and disgusting things under Joe's command. We don't know what ticked her off, and thats what so amazing about Fury Road. Max and Furiosa don't share a campside conversation by the bonfire where Furiosa cries into Max' arms by retelling him what set her off, how Immortan Joe made her do nasty things, or how she killed babies or whatever. She is absolutely independent, strong and capable yet she also understands Max can play a part in her story and that's basically the crux of it. Fury Road was Furiosa's story and Max helps her out. I don't know why that is such a painful point of criticism for so many people.
His entire logic makes no sense. Implies Mad Max doesnt deserve to be in the conversation of best of all time because it lacks superior characterization and character depth then lists Raiders of the Lost Ark as his counterpoint. A film with far less character depth. Dredd doesnt have an evocative plot but The Raid does. Despite the plots broadly speaking essentially being identical. Except Dredd does a marvelous job of world building.
I love Shaw films too.
I didn't say The Raid has an evocative plot, it barely has one at all, but it's action makes up for it.
I didn't list Raiders as a counterpoint. I listed it as film that elevated the genre when it was released in some manner. It's characterizations are largely in line with Max; however, when it was made it's effects expanded the very rubric of what could be done in a way that makes it more of a landmark than Max I believe. Which is insanely good visually, but does little to change the very notion of what I thought an action film could aspire to be.
I didn't say The Raid has an evocative plot, it barely has one at all, but it's action makes up for it.
I didn't list Raiders as a counterpoint. I listed it as film that elevated the genre when it was released in some manner. It's characterizations are largely in line with Max; however, when it was made it's effects expanded the very rubric of what could be done in a way that makes it more of a landmark than Max I believe. Which is insanely good visually, but does little to change the very notion of what I thought an action film could aspire to be.
Bravo *slow clap*
demosthenes
Member
Lord of the Rings more or less invented fantasy cinema as a serious art form.
Nothing has come close since.
This sequence is amazing.
It's trite because there are tons of action movies with feminist angles these days. Like... Uh... Shit, help me out here.
We're all just waiting for those 100 films that are better then Dredd after you screamed hyperbole at everyone. And its isn't a straw man when the poster very specifically dismissed the movie due to "feminist trite" without qualification or justification. He is literally responding directly to his criticism.
Still waiting for those 100 action films better than Dredd.
Ultra Numb
Member
Akira
How about The Wives, who embody stereotypical femininity with respect to Furiosa?
I'm right there with you. I actually just rented Mad Max yesterday and was left with the same feeling I had in the theater: "This is it?" Don't get me wrong, it's a pretty well made action movie, but the way people were going on about it you'd thought it revolutionized cinema or something. Personally, like you, I thought The Raid did far more for action movies that Fury Road did. I'd also put Dredd in that category. I consider those two movies the best action films of the last decade.
If the Wives were the only female characters in the movie, then yeah, it would be problematic. But you're removing a few facts.
- Each Wive has a different personality, ideas, opinions and conflict within them.
- They are all even slightly different ethniticty wise.
- At least two of them are very smart and good with weapons.
- They all have agency, and affect the plot and progression in some way, individually. In other words, each Wife has something to do.
- The Vuvalini offer another alternate female perspective, and they are all very strong and smart.
- Furiosa doesn't even really like the Wives that much, which is really interesting and unique.
Snowman didn't say feminist trite. But if you strip Furiosa of her gender her characterization and story aren't outliers within the genre in any fashion.
1. Yes, he did absolutely say feminist trite. Read it again.
2. Removing her gender? That statement is completely irrelevant because her gender is part of her characterization and her story, jesus. It informs her story, her life, and her actions. It would be a completely different movie if Furiosa was male. That's what makes it the outlier in the genre.
That would be like if I said, make Ripley male, and she isn't a unique or interesting Action movie hero. No fucking shit.
Er, that's exactly what Snowman said.
Which I disagree with. I also find it odd so many people are specifically looking at Furiosa's character for the feminist angle when most of the feminist themes in the movie come from the worldbuilding of Immortan Joe's society and the basic plot of the Wives trying to escape his control.
It's also interesting because the feminist themes of the movie are part of a larger theme of people being more than just objects to be used. Max, the War Boys, the Wives, and the women milked like cattle are all dehumanized by Immortan Joe's society, and they all regain their humanity through helping other people. Even the milk mothers get their moment at the end releasing the water, showing that they're more than just cattle, they're human beings with empathy and agency. "WE ARE NOT THINGS!" indeed.
There are a lot of elements that contribute to these themes of objectification and regaining humanity I didn't mention too: How Max goes from feral animal-like grunts to speaking full dialogue, how one of the villains is literally called the People Eater, how the doctor is called "The Organic Mechanic"...
Agree with most of this. But go back and watch the scene where she puts the grease on before the meet up in the canyon. She gives a look in the mirror like a nervous actor before going on stage. Of course the movie could be about her "redemption," but she seems like she's never wanted to play the part, and this was her best chance. But yes, that is what's so great about the movie, you don't need to know any of that to enjoy it.
He said the films feminist angle was trite. He failed to qualify or properly defend that assertion. And Rusty responded in kind. With a much better argued position.
Hmm glossed over that carry on.
RustyNails
Member
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Lets reverse the genders and see if anything is different? Lets wait for Snowman to tell us what he meant by saying the feminist stuff is trite instead of half assedly leaping to defense.
E the Shaggy
Junior Member
Winter Soldier and Dark Knight for the superhero genre (Marvel and DC specifically).
The juxtoposition of Furiosa and The Wives kind of struck me as a problematic continuation of women characters having to take on masculine traits at the expense of femininity to become the hero, in the vein of Sarah Connor and Ripley.
SchrodingerC
Member
After suffering through 1 and a half decade of mediocre and just plain bad action movies, to many this was a much needed shot in the arm for the genre.
Here's another little cool edit I saw. Watch the scene where Max confirms Splendid(?) went under the tires. The mix of the wives voices mixes together like the echoes in Max head, yet the camera pans to Furiosa who is taking it in, as if it's a harbinger for her own voices, and then it cuts to Max to confirm this. Then right when you expect for his ghosts to join the mix, you get a lens full of a different kind of skull in Immortan Joe, who is experiencing his own hard loss.
All these things tie together so well, you don't even think about it, and it really shows off Miller's rhythm.
All these things tie together so well, you don't even think about it, and it really shows off Miller's rhythm.
I don't get the claims of Winter Soldier, Dark Knight or Avengers elevating the comic book genre.
Really that should go to Superman(1978) and then Batman(89) and then Spiderman or X Men in 99 or 2002.
Superman is the easy one because it was the first solid outing of cinematic comic book films. The genre hit a low and Batman 89 brought it back. Then it was another decade and Xmen and Spiderman really kicked off the modern Comic book craze. They weren't revolutionary but they certainly re-elevated the genre at their particular times in history IMO.
Really that should go to Superman(1978) and then Batman(89) and then Spiderman or X Men in 99 or 2002.
Superman is the easy one because it was the first solid outing of cinematic comic book films. The genre hit a low and Batman 89 brought it back. Then it was another decade and Xmen and Spiderman really kicked off the modern Comic book craze. They weren't revolutionary but they certainly re-elevated the genre at their particular times in history IMO.
RustyNails
Member
There is absolutely nothing wrong with embodying femininity. It comes in all shapes and sizes. Point #1, a trite movie would have the wives crying, cowering in fear and dependent on a Male Savior hero to save them and ratcheting up tension by artificial damsel in distress situation. Point #2, with respect to their clothing, All of Joe's wives wore similar clothing, from the morbidly obese to the thin ones. Sure you can make a point about eye-candy, but the overriding point is that movie logic covered it. Point#3, Angahard is the one who actually protects Max, the male protagonist, from Joe. She dies in the process by slipping and falling. But that does not detract from the heroic role she played.
I disagree because the Wives are heroes despite only Toast showing combat ability. Splendid's bravery and self-sacrifice lets her save Furiosa and Max from Joe during the canyon chase scene, the Dag's friendship with the Keeper of the Seeds set up the rebuild of civilization, Cheedo tricks Rictus in the ending chase by capitalizing on her previous status as a helpless damsel, and Capable's compassion and love for Nux ends up showing him another way to glory and redemption. They all show agency while still keeping non-combat roles.
Stereotypically feminine characters can still be active and important agents within a plot. For example, Diana Soreil in the anime Turn A Gundam is an extremely progressive female character despite wearing dresses, getting kidnapped, and almost never using a weapon. Why? Because her decisions have an active effect in shaping the plot, and she learns and grows into a better leader through her experiences. She develops a strong independent personality and eventually takes back control of her people from those who assumed she would just be a pawn.
You mentioned Ripley, but Ripley isn't actually the most masculine female character in Aliens. Vasquez is more stereotypically masculine than her, showing the same preening arrogance as her male peers. Ripley's most admirable traits include her adoption of Newt, which extends beyond simple protection. She shows great comfort and tenderness in scenes like putting Newt to bed, stereotypically motherly qualities. Ripley doesn't sacrifice stereotypically feminine traits to be a hero, she embraces them and combines them with the bravery and willingness to fight we consider "masculine".
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Pacific Rim with RL mecha action genre. Actually, not many contender on that specific genre, unless we count anime movie as well
thecouncil
Banned
I laughed. Not at the post (which is probably a good answer) but because after reading a whole string of posts about the feminism in Mad Max, I forgot what thread I was in.
I love Dredd! I will never forgive how bad the marketing for that movie was and putting 3d in the title. I remember seeing it with my brother in a nearly empty theater on release day. I think Dredd is better or equal to Fury Road. I said in another thread Dredd is the closest were getting to the Original RoboCop.
2001 did it way earlier and way higher.
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