Eh, there's still a massive gulf between masculine female characters and hypersexualized female characters that female heroes are seemingly barred from embodying.
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Movies that "elevate" their genre, ala Mad Max
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Eh, there's still a massive gulf between masculine female characters and hypersexualized female characters that female heroes are seemingly barred from embodying.
RustyNails
Member
Terrific points regarding Alien.I disagree because the Wives are heroes despite only Toast showing combat ability. Splendid's bravery and self-sacrifice lets her save Furiosa and Max from Joe during the canyon chase scene, the Dag's friendship with the Keeper of the Seeds set up the rebuild of civilization, Cheedo tricks Rictus in the ending chase by capitalizing on her previous status as a helpless damsel, and Capable's compassion and love for Nux ends up showing him another way to glory and redemption. They all show agency while still keeping non-combat roles.
Stereotypically feminine characters can still be active and important agents within a plot. For example, Diana Soreil in the anime Turn A Gundam is an extremely progressive female character despite wearing dresses, getting kidnapped, and almost never using a weapon. Why? Because her decisions have an active effect in shaping the plot, and she learns and grows into a better leader through her experiences. She develops a strong independent personality and eventually takes back control of her people from those who assumed she would just be a pawn.
Watching The Road Warrior, it's amazing how such a creative and crazy movie came after the original Mad Max. I feel like George Miller was able to realize his vision of the apocalyptic wasteland for the first time in that movie.Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior.
What an amazing film and huge influence on action cinema.
Whoops, sorry I deleted that part. I added it back to the post, albeit typed from memory.Terrific points regarding Alien.
Terrific points regarding Alien.
Animalistic versus Humanistic representations of motherhood between Ripley and the Aliens is like the underlying theme of the film Lol. Underlying is probably too strong a term. It's front and center.
I never said the complete omission of feminine traits, I simply said the stripping away of feminine traits in favor of masculine ones.
RustyNails
Member
Lol I was wondering where it went. I agree about the difference between Vasquesz and Ripley. I dont think feminism is exclusively all or nothing situation though. I think you can embody the rah rah aspect of a space marine and still be a woman. Ripley's choices and her empathy while still being a badass is just a better reflection.Watching The Road Warrior, it's amazing how such a creative and crazy movie came after the original Mad Max. I feel like George Miller was able to realize his vision of the apocalyptic wasteland for the first time in that movie.
Whoops, sorry I deleted that part. Let me see if I can type it from memory.
In an action movie, the main heroes take part in the action, which means they must be brave and willing to fight. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.Animalistic versus Humanistic representations of motherhood between Ripley and the Aliens is like the underlying theme of the film Lol. Underlying is probably too strong a term. It's front and center.
I never said the complete omission of feminine traits, I simply said the stripping away of feminine traits in favor of masculine ones.
"Femininity" and "masculinity" aren't all or nothing traits.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I fucking hate anything showing a strong female lead being written off as "feminist trite" without any explanation whatsoever. This bullshit needs to die in movies where the strong female is subject to the archetypes and whims of male audience. Was Aliens feminist trite? Terminator 2? By what subjective standard do you say Furiosa's story was peddling a trite feminist angle? The wasteland shown in the movie (as has been shown in all Mad Max movies) is a harsh break down of civilization. Men during the dawn of civilization treated women like chattel. Mad Max shows that when chips have fallen, we all resort to that base cromagnon in us all. Furiosa as an Imperator has absolutely gained Immortan Joe's trust to achieve the near deified rank she has and we can definitely underscore that she has done despicable and disgusting things under Joe's command. We don't know what ticked her off, and thats what so amazing about Fury Road. Max and Furiosa don't share a campside conversation by the bonfire where Furiosa cries into Max' arms by retelling him what set her off, how Immortan Joe made her do nasty things, or how she killed babies or whatever. She is absolutely independent, strong and capable yet she also understands Max can play a part in her story and that's basically the crux of it. Fury Road was Furiosa's story and Max helps her out. I don't know why that is such a painful point of criticism for so many people.
The movie is about a woman trapped in a hypermasculine patriarchal cult who fetishizes a half-remembered matriarchy, spends most of the movie trying to return to it, then uses the last, best vestiges of said matriarchy to topple the patriarchy and bestow victims of its toxicity with water, a traditionally feminine symbol in poetry and art.
Let's be real, the movie screams 2015 in its handling of gender.
Edit: I didn't say feminism was trite. I would consider Ozu a feminist, and he's one of my favorite directors. I said this movie's feminist angle was trite.
RustyNails
Member
And that is fine, is what I'm saying. Women, like Vasquesz lived the badass space marine culture. Having masculine traits is not a ding against feminism. No one said Demi Moore was any less of a woman when she bested everyone in GI Jane and proved her worth (to Viggo's character).I never said the complete omission of feminine traits, I simply said the stripping away of feminine traits in favor of masculine ones.
HuskerDutheDu
Member
Just skimmed, but didn't see stagecoach mentioned. A lot like 2001, big budget westerns weren't really in vogue. It had become a cheap, production-line esque genre. Ford turned it around into a prestige genre, setting the tone for leone and his own future work
In the context of the action genre, is it trite?The movie is about a woman trapped in a hypermasculine patriarchal cult who fetishizes a half-remembered matriarchy, spends most of the movie trying to return to it, then uses the last, best vestiges of said matriarchy to topple the patriarchy and bestow victims of its toxicity with water, a traditionally feminine symbol in poetry and art.
Let's be real, the movie screams 2015 in its handling of gender.
Edit: I didn't say feminism was trite. I would consider Ozu a feminist, and he's one of my favorite directors. I said this movie's feminist angle was trite.
It definitely elevated the mall cop genre.Paul Blart Mall Cop 1 elevated the comedy game. Sadly the sequel could not capture the same lightning in the bottle.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
In the context of the action genre, is it trite?
You don't get to invoke the protection of the genre bubble while also making a claim for the movie as a work of art that transcends and/or elevates the genre. My argument is for why certain aspects of the film torpedo its claim to high artistry, one being a feminist angle that is trite, silly, and unrelatable, both artistically and culturally.
RustyNails
Member
Your wrong right off the bat. Furiosa was not trapped in the patriarchal tribe. She enjoyed an extremely favored position in the tribe as an Imperator. Heck, if anyone could take over the Citadel it would have been Furiosa as she was the one most capable of doing so. The crowds cheered her name. She decided she had enough and breaks free the wives, who were actually trapped. Again, as Furiosa's motivation we dont get much background on what set her off, but what we know is that she did not lose all her humanity like Joe and his people did. Furiosa toppling the Citadel with the help of many mothers is far from trite. She knew that the wives would be safe in the green land, and thats all that mattered. As for water and stuff, I think you're reaching a bit. I didn't go YAA WOMEN POWAH when the wives atop the citadel unleashed the water. It was just a thing that happened.The movie is about a woman trapped in a hypermasculine patriarchal cult who fetishizes a half-remembered matriarchy, spends most of the movie trying to return to it, then uses the last, best vestiges of said matriarchy to topple the patriarchy and bestow victims of its toxicity with water, a traditionally feminine symbol in poetry and art.
Let's be real, the movie screams 2015 in its handling of gender.
Edit: I didn't say feminism was trite. I would consider Ozu a feminist, and he's one of my favorite directors. I said this movie's feminist angle was trite.
As for edit, whats the difference between feminist trite and a trite feminism angle?
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The only angle that was trite was "overthrow the patriarchy." And all that is is the payoff.
You don't get to invoke the protection of the genre bubble while also making a claim for the movie as a work of art that transcends and/or elevates the genre. My argument is for why certain aspects of the film torpedo its claim to high artistry, one being a feminist angle that is trite, silly, and unrelatable, both artistically and culturally.
By the OP's definition of "elevation" Mad Max fits perfectly fine. You are creating your own definition to suit your argument and dismiss the film.. I.E. moving the goal posts.
I disagree with your characterization of feminism in the film but even so it doesnt prevent the film from elevating the genre based on the OP's definition. And as I said before, most of your other criticisms can be applied to almost any other great action movie people have mentioned. At some point you have to ask "compared to what" with regards to its competition in the action genre field and take a more structured look at films through proper context and an even-handed lens.
RustyNails
Member
I'm not sure if the criteria of elevating a genre is to make it into a Lawrence of Arabia or Citizen Kane.You don't get to invoke the protection of the genre bubble while also making a claim for the movie as a work of art that transcends and/or elevates the genre. My argument is for why certain aspects of the film torpedo its claim to high artistry, one being a feminist angle that is trite, silly, and unrelatable, both artistically and culturally.
You say it's trite, silly, and unrelatable. Why?You don't get to invoke the protection of the genre bubble while also making a claim for the movie as a work of art that transcends and/or elevates the genre. My argument is for why certain aspects of the film torpedo its claim to high artistry, one being a feminist angle that is trite, silly, and unrelatable, both artistically and culturally.
What are the movies that have explored those ideas in a similar fashion? Why don't Mad Max's stylistic traits add novelty to the implementation of those ideas?
I find the idea of a movie "transcending" or "elevating" its genre to be bullshit anyways, but I really don't understand your argument that the feminist angle is trite. The only thing that you've identified as overused is water as a sumbol of femininity, even though water can have other meanings like redemption (which is probably more trite than water symbolizing femininity).
How is that trite though?The only angle that was trite was "overthrow the patriarchy." And all that is is the payoff.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Your wrong right off the bat. Furiosa was not trapped in the patriarchal tribe. She enjoyed an extremely favored position in the tribe as an Imperator. Heck, if anyone could take over the Citadel it would have been Furiosa as she was the one most capable of doing so. The crowds cheered her name. She decided she had enough and breaks free the wives, who were actually trapped. Again, as Furiosa's motivation we dont get much background on what set her off, but what we know is that she did not lose all her humanity like Joe and his people did. Furiosa toppling the Citadel with the help of many mothers is far from trite. She knew that the wives would be safe in the green land, and thats all that mattered. As for water and stuff, I think you're reaching a bit. I didn't go YAA WOMEN POWAH when the wives atop the citadel unleashed the water. It was just a thing that happened.
As for edit, whats the difference between feminist trite and a trite feminism angle?
She was in a privileged position because she was abducted as a child and forcibly conscripted, for whatever reason. She had made compromises to deal with a sad state of affairs, and decided to spare other women a similarly self-obliviating fate. She's trapped by any meaningful deployment of the term.
As to the latter point, the difference is I'm not saying the angle is trite because it's feminist, or that there's anything inherently trite about feminism, but that thisparticular movie's use of feminism was trite.
As for elevation: I agree that it does some things well that other modern action movies don't do well. I wouldn't call that "elevating the genre", though, especially since there has been NO time to appraise the movie's influence or place inside or outside of the genre.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
I gotta see Mad Max
Rocky for boxing films
T2 for sci fi Action
Halloween for Horror.
Rocky for boxing films
T2 for sci fi Action
Halloween for Horror.
Doesn't this fall apart when literally everyone in Immortan Joe's citadel is trapped in some way? The Wives are sex slaves in a gilded cage, the War Boys are indoctrinated to the point where they don't know any other way, the populace is under total control thanks to Joe's water, Max is a blood bag... Even Joe himself is trapped by his dependence on a breathing apparatus.She was in a privileged position because she was abducted as a child and forcibly conscripted, for whatever reason. She had made compromises to deal with a sad state of affairs, and decided to spare other women a similarly self-obliviating fate. She's trapped by any meaningful deployment of the term.
The feminism in the movie is part of a greater theme of power structures dehumanizing people, both men and women.
She was in a privileged position because she was abducted as a child and forcibly conscripted, for whatever reason. She had made compromises to deal with a sad state of affairs, and decided to spare other women a similarly self-obliviating fate. She's trapped by any meaningful deployment of the term.
As to the latter point, the difference is I'm not saying the angle is trite because it's feminist, or that there's anything inherently trite about feminism, but that thisparticular movie's use of feminism was trite.
As for elevation: I agree that it does some things well that other modern action movies don't do well. I wouldn't call that "elevating the genre", though, especially since there has been NO time to appraise the movie's influence or place inside or outside of the genre.
How can it be trite(overused and consequently of little import; lacking originality or freshness) in a genre that has lacked any sort of feminist angle outside of the small handful of pillars sprinkled over the last 30 years that we consistently point to in the mountains of stereotypical chauvinistic, sexist, by-the-numbers films we have seen?
Well-intentioned Feminism front and center in action films, executed well, is not exactly a common thing in the genre. You get a solid one about once or twice a decade.
dark_inferno
Member
The Dark Knight. Untouchable by its genre.
Whats Dark Knights genre anyway? Nobody has superpowers so its not superhero. Crime,Action or Thriller? Even in these genres are better movies seriously.
Don't be obtuse. Super hero.Whats Dark Knights genre anyway? Nobody has superpowers so its not superhero. Crime or Thriller? Even in these genres are better movies seriously.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Age of Ultron really elevated the robot rebellion genre and Captain America The Winter Solder elevated the espionage genre.
Whats Dark Knights genre anyway? Nobody has superpowers so its not superhero. Crime or Thriller? Even in these genres are better movies seriously.
Don't think I get this argument. So Punisher, Daredevil, Batman and Tony Stark are no longer super heroes? I disagree with that posters assertion but this is straight redefining the term super hero.
I mean someone better inform the writers of these guys:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superheroes_and_villains_without_superpowers
I would argue against it. Nolan just made a more grounded Batman and Batman doesnt even have Superpowers to begin with. I would also say that Ironman isnt even a superhero movie. Its just 2 guys in special suits that are expensive as fuck.
So in the end its Non-Superhero-Batman made even more realistic with less superhero powers he had. Just a guy who had a special training, cant build his own gadgets (unlike his comic counterpart) and has billions to waste on kevlar suit and a tank. Sorry but i wouldnt say its a Superhero movie.
You don't get to just make up your own definitions to suit your argument. Why is this so prevalent in this thread?
dark_inferno
Member
Don't be obtuse. Super hero.
I would argue against it. Nolan just made a more grounded Batman and Batman doesnt even have Superpowers to begin with. I would also say that Ironman isnt even a superhero movie. Its just 2 guys in special suits that are expensive as fuck.
So in the end its Non-Superhero-Batman made even more realistic with less superhero powers he had. Just a guy who had a special training, cant build his own gadgets (unlike his comic counterpart) and has billions to waste on kevlar suit and a tank. Sorry but i wouldnt say its a Superhero movie.
Don't think I get this argument. So Punisher, Daredevil, Batman and Tony Stark are no longer super heroes? I disagree with that posters assertion but this is straight redefining the term super hero.
I mean someone better inform the writers of these guys:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superheroes_and_villains_without_superpowers
No i dont mean the Comiccharacters. Its just Nolans Batman. Comic Batman survives a lot of shit easily. Nolans Batman is more grounded in that way less Superhuman. He goes easily down with a knive hit while comic bats could survive an explosion.
Call me when you can glide with a cape. Until that, it's fantasy, comic book fantasy, about a hero. Super hero movie. Or comic book movie. Whatever.No i dont mean the Comiccharacters. Its just Nolans Batman. Comic Batman survives a lot of shit easily. Nolans Batman is more grounded in that way less Superhuman. He goes easily down with a knive hit while comic bats could survive an explosion.
What? No. You're not telling us that toy commercial is better than something like Blade Runner or Terminator did you?Age of Ultron really elevated the robot rebellion genre.
He still fits the broad definition of a superhero:I would argue against it. Nolan just made a more grounded Batman and Batman doesnt even have Superpowers to begin with. I would also say that Ironman isnt even a superhero movie. Its just 2 guys in special suits that are expensive as fuck.
So in the end its Non-Superhero-Batman made even more realistic with less superhero powers he had. Just a guy who had a special training, cant build his own gadgets (unlike his comic counterpart) and has billions to waste on kevlar suit and a tank. Sorry but i wouldnt say its a Superhero movie.
No i dont mean the Comiccharacters. Its just Nolans Batman. Comic Batman survives a lot of shit easily. Nolans Batman is more grounded in that way less Superhuman. He goes easily down with a knive hit while comic bats could survive an explosion.
Many superhero characters display the following traits:By most definitions, characters do not require actual supernatural or superhuman powers or phenomena to be deemed superheroes.
Extraordinary powers or abilities:
Superhero powers vary widely; superhuman strength, the ability to fly, enhanced senses, and the projection of energy bolts are all common. Some characters like Batman, Mockingbird, the Phantom and the Question possess no superhuman powers but have mastered skills such as martial arts, espionage techniques, and applied or forensic sciences to a highly remarkable degree. Others rely on fantastical weapons or technology, such as Iron Man's powered armor suits, Green Lantern’s power ring, and trick arrows employed by Green Arrow and Hawkeye. Many characters supplement their innate superhuman powers with a special weapon or device (e.g. Captain America's shield, Wonder Woman's lasso and bracelets, Thor's weather manipulating hammer, and Wolverine's adamantium claws).
Batman fits the broad definition, even in Nolans universe.
dark_inferno
Member
Call me when you can glide with a cape. Until that, it's fantasy, comic book fantasy, about a hero. Super hero movie. Or comic book movie. Whatever.
What? No. You'0e not telling us it's better than something like Blade Runner or Terminator did you?
I would say Dark Knight elevates the action genre as a whole. But not Superheroes. Thats what i wanna say. I mean Marvel elevated Superheroe movies with Avengers(Thats why DC makes a million films now and Marvel makes a billion films. Right after they have seen how much money an crossover can get you) and Dark knight elevated the action genre as whole. Those horns are in every second movie.
I would say Dark Knight elevates the action genre as a whole. But not Superheroes. Thats what i wanna say. I mean Marvel elevated Superheroe movies with Avengers(Thats why DC makes a million films now and Marvel makes a billion films. Right after they have seen how much money an crossover can get you) and Dark knight elevated the action genre as whole. Those horns are in every second movie.
The action genre? The action in the Nolan movies is pretty bland. TDK had a good car chase but that's about it in terms of action for that movie.
TDK is cited so often as a watershed moment because it was the first major superhero movie that attempted a serious tone with the more fantastical elements shrouded by the more grounded approach. TDK had plenty of absurd comicbook bullshit, but it did a commendable job at covering them up.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Michael Bay movies are in here somewhere.
For horror, from this year It Follows. Not many horror movies go for unrelenting dread with little jump scares, likeable characyers, and an ambiguous tone through to the very end. Also, amazing cinematography and music.
The wrongest answer in this thread.
I'm sure you meant, maybe the Exorcist, or Night of The Living Dead.
SciFi: 2001
Dystopian Future: A Clockwork Orange
Horror: Psycho/The Shining
Alien Horror: Alien
Neo-Horror: The Ring
War: Apocalypse Now
Neo-War: Blackhawk Down
Action/SciFi: Star Wars
Action: Die Hard
Alien Action: Predator/Aliens
Robot Action: Terminator
Kung Fu Action: Enter the Dragon
Car Action: Bullitt
Dystopian Car Action: Road Warrior/Fury Road
Mobster: The Godfather
Neo-Mobster: Scarface
Boxing: Rocky
Dystopian Future: A Clockwork Orange
Horror: Psycho/The Shining
Alien Horror: Alien
Neo-Horror: The Ring
War: Apocalypse Now
Neo-War: Blackhawk Down
Action/SciFi: Star Wars
Action: Die Hard
Alien Action: Predator/Aliens
Robot Action: Terminator
Kung Fu Action: Enter the Dragon
Car Action: Bullitt
Dystopian Car Action: Road Warrior/Fury Road
Mobster: The Godfather
Neo-Mobster: Scarface
Boxing: Rocky
inked_illusion
Member
I have yet to see another movie get close to the charm and weird comedy of "Napoleon Dynamite"... It's place in this non existent area where the movie should have failed completely as a comedy but it has an something that keeps it relevant for a good decade now
That and it's a highly quotable movie
That and it's a highly quotable movie
Messofanego
Banned
The wrongest answer in this thread.
I'm sure you meant, maybe the Exorcist, or Night of The Living Dead.
If we're talking all time, Cabinet of Dr Caligari and Peeping Tom shits on both of those.
Elevating the genre is such odd wording. I haven't seen Fury Road, I won't comment on that, but just being the best action movie in a while doesn't elevate something.
Unforgiven, to me, is a perfect example of a genre actually being elevated, where it was a western but it also ELEVATED the genre to something more. It was not just a western, it was a western that also succeeded wholeheartedly as a plain old drama, and a damn good one.
An action movie that elevates the genre should both be about superb action but also be deeper than that. Think the Matrix for example, I don't think it's the best action movie ever made by a long long long shot, but I do think it is an elevated action movie that does a lot of things the genre typically does not aspire to do.
Unforgiven, to me, is a perfect example of a genre actually being elevated, where it was a western but it also ELEVATED the genre to something more. It was not just a western, it was a western that also succeeded wholeheartedly as a plain old drama, and a damn good one.
An action movie that elevates the genre should both be about superb action but also be deeper than that. Think the Matrix for example, I don't think it's the best action movie ever made by a long long long shot, but I do think it is an elevated action movie that does a lot of things the genre typically does not aspire to do.
flatearthpandas
Member
Uhhh, nah.
Fury Road was good. But elevating the genre? Nah. I think of things like Blade Runner or 2001 for that. It isn't just making a really good movie of X genre, it's doing something inside that genre that no one expects and making something ultimately more impactful. I think Oldboy for action movies.
Fury Road was good. But elevating the genre? Nah. I think of things like Blade Runner or 2001 for that. It isn't just making a really good movie of X genre, it's doing something inside that genre that no one expects and making something ultimately more impactful. I think Oldboy for action movies.
Scrupulous
Banned
The Raid and The Raid 2 pretty much invalidate any other martial arts movie.
Ong bak did it long before the raid hell the technical side of early Jackie chan movies set a ridiculous bar for stunt work in general. The Raid films got back to basics after everyone got tired of crouching tiger's influence.
I don't get this thread.
It's basically people just listing movies they like.
no
Scrupulous
Banned
2001
Alien
Terminator
The godfather 2
Blade runner (film noir hard boiled detective story)
Fury road has a long way to go before it can be as revered as road warrior
To many films to list as there many in each and every genre.
Alien
Terminator
The godfather 2
Blade runner (film noir hard boiled detective story)
Fury road has a long way to go before it can be as revered as road warrior
To many films to list as there many in each and every genre.
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