Support NeoGAF

[Iced_Eagle]

Remember a few weeks ago when we Arstechnica got their hands on that leaked interal memo sent to devs working on the XBO? It said:



Using the cloud and playing offline work directly against eachother...so if MS is encouraging devs to make games that work offline, how can they use the cloud? The flipside is that if they use the cloud, the game cant work offline since it wont be able to access the cloud. This doesnt make any sense to me.

Not all developers will use the cloud though.

For example, if they made a direct port of Super Meat Boy, that wouldn't need the cloud, and you would expect to be able to play that game offline.

However, it's up to the developer to handle that scenario when they're using the cloud and they're offline. In some cases, if the cloud is core to the game, then you won't be able top play the game offline in any case, even if the One would let you. For example, Destiny requires a connection at all times. If your internet goes down, even though the One would still let you play it, they've designed the game so that it requires access to the internet, so you won't be able to play that offline most likely. In other cases, the developer could degrade the experience if you're offline. If they're using the cloud to have more NPC's in a city (offloading all of the AI processing for hundreds of agents), if you're disconnected, they could just reduce the amount of NPC's that you have in the world so that it could still run locally and at a good frame rate. So instead of having 100 NPC's, they would degrade down to 30 NPC's or something.

 

[Easy_D]

Not all developers will use the cloud though.

For example, if they made a direct port of Super Meat Boy, that wouldn't need the cloud, and you would expect to be able to play that game offline.

However, it's up to the developer to handle that scenario when they're using the cloud and they're offline. In some cases, if the cloud is core to the game, then you won't be able top play the game offline in any case, even if the One would let you. For example, Destiny requires a connection at all times. If your internet goes down, even though the One would still let you play it, they've designed the game so that it requires access to the internet, so you won't be able to play that offline most likely. In other cases, the developer could degrade the experience if you're offline. If they're using the cloud to have more NPC's in a city (offloading all of the AI processing for hundreds of agents), if you're disconnected, they could just reduce the amount of NPC's that you have in the world so that it could still run locally and at a good frame rate. So instead of having 100 NPC's, they would degrade down to 30 NPC's or something.

What about the fact that there will be more than 300k users leeching resources from a finite amount of servers? Oh right infinite power.

 

[Gestault]

People keep saying that, and can never detail what part of the Natal concept video has been overpromised. Kinect does almost exactly everything that is featured in that video. The only things missing are the quiz show, and the "switch gears" motion in racers.

You could easily say the interactivity and AI combination for something like the Milo presentation over-promised. I'm someone who enjoyed a handful of the Kinect games, so I'm not particularly negative about it overall, but that's a sticking point I understand. I think it's fair to say they over-promised, but to be fair, there isn't a single gaming company who isn't guilty of this that I can think of off the top of my head, and if we're comparing products in this regard, Sony has a bad history of this themselves.

C'est la vie. Either we get entertainment from the product itself, or we get entertainment from the meltdowns online from people's reactions.

 

[johntown]

If they're using the cloud to have more NPC's in a city (offloading all of the AI processing for hundreds of agents), if you're disconnected, they could just reduce the amount of NPC's that you have in the world so that it could still run locally and at a good frame rate. So instead of having 100 NPC's, they would degrade down to 30 NPC's or something.

Now this makes sense to me. I could almost see all (or most) games having an option to use/enable Cloud. When that option is enabled it syncs your disc based game with one running parallel in the Cloud. If the option is enabled you have more NPC's or higher resolutions and framerates and if it is not enabled the game still runs but may not look as good or have more NPC's.

 

[Dalauz]

 

[Alx]

You could easily say the interactivity and AI combination for something like the Milo presentation over-promised.

For Milo, I think it was more people over-interpreting what they were watching, rather than Lionhead overpromising. All the features that appeared in the demo (or were demonstrated to journalists) are quite standard kinect features : identifying the user, reacting to a few key words, recognizing the color of a shirt... Everything was wrapped in a convincing presentation, but it wasn't groundbreaking AI. Only people thought it was, and that they would be able to have a natural discussion with a virtual boy...

 

[Jabba]

That's a good example actually, one of our most successful cloud workflows is weather prediction. Surprise: it's not a real-time interactive computation!

What about off loading non time critical tasks to the cloud? Would that free up processing power?

 

[MasLegio]

Now this makes sense to me. I could almost see all (or most) games having an option to use/enable Cloud. When that option is enabled it syncs your disc based game with one running parallel in the Cloud. If the option is enabled you have more NPC's or higher resolutions and framerates and if it is not enabled the game still runs but may not look as good or have more NPC's.

what if you have to pay (Live Gold) to use the cloud?

would that be fair for someone who has paid 60 usd for the game to get a worse experience just because they have not paid for Gold?

 

[phosphor112]

hard to believe that this guy's gonna release a game on xbox one.
im pretty sure he can wait two weeks till e3. after that we can see if that stuff is bs or not.

Well, they treated him (and other devs) like shit.

 

[Hermii]

People keep saying that, and can never detail what part of the Natal concept video has been overpromised. Kinect does almost exactly everything that is featured in that video. The only things missing are the quiz show, and the "switch gears" motion in racers.

Its been a while since I saw that, but I seem to remember you could use any random object like for example a baseball bat as an ingame object or as a control method.

Also I seem to remember you could talk to npcs that reacted to your face expressions.

 

[dragonbane]

People keep saying that, and can never detail what part of the Natal concept video has been overpromised. Kinect does almost exactly everything that is featured in that video. The only things missing are the quiz show, and the "switch gears" motion in racers.

-Scanning skateboards?
-Star Wars Kinect faked demo?
-PM speaking about Milo and talking nonsense?

This video describes it pretty well: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUISCJDmw5o#t=6m11s

 

[Brad Grenz]

The disclaimer on the box is going to be awesome "Requires a constant internet connection or your console will run like a piece of crap."

-Scanning skateboards?
-Star Wars Kinect faked demo?
-PM speaking about Milo and talking nonsense?

This video describes it pretty well: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUISCJDmw5o#t=6m11s

Try just functioning well in people's homes.

 

[Phonomezer]

-Scanning skateboards?

Concept video from over a year before the device was released.

-Star Wars Kinect faked demo?

What faked demo?

-PM speaking about Milo and talking nonsense?

Again, conceptual. This happens across all areas of industry when introducing new products.

 

[Hermii]

Concept video from over a year before the device was released.



What faked demo?



Again, conceptual. This happens across all areas of industry when introducing new products.

They precented it very much as working tech.

 

[Phonomezer]

They precented it very much as working tech.

Assuming the Milo demo was the extent of the commercial product, there was actually nothing there that the Kinect couldn't do.

 

[Camp Lo]

Cloud makes system more powerful? What the fuck

 

[dragonbane]

Assuming the Milo demo was the extent of the commercial product, there was actually nothing there that the Kinect couldn't do.

Molyneux: "This works...today!"

What faked demo?

Phil Spencer: "This is live direct feed gameplay"

 

[Phonomezer]

Molyneux: "This works...today!"

It probably did?

What did milo have.. voice control? image scanning? Things the Kinect can do. Again, it's a conceptual presentation that was shown 17 months before the thing came out.

Phil Spencer: "This is live direct feed gameplay"

Are you referring to what he said at E3 2010? http://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video46423

That is not the same as that gif, the gif is from a choreographed Cirque du Soleil performance.

 

[Pistolero]

Lmao!

 

[RetroStu]

God i hate Kinect, i feel like i'm losing brain cells just looking at that gif.

 

[Weltall Zero]

who are they kidding with this?

Everyone that still reads Microsoft press releases and believes them. Which unfortunately is a rather large number of people.

Man you guys are so negative about everything! I'm not a fanboy i don't care if it was sony or Ms doing it I like exciting tech that's it. you guys are too invested in your console wars leave me out of it I'm allowed to be excited about what i want to be excited about. Im not as negative thinking about things these companies don't pay my bills damn sure don't pay yours! i have no alliance with any of them i pay for whatever i like period i could care less who's name is on the box.

That's an interesting and specific series of statements, particularly coming from an account whose entire post history is spent exclusively defending Microsoft tooth and nail.

 

[Phonomezer]

The fuck is with the tag.

I WAS CORRECT.

 

[Eusis]

This is all funny, but what if it isn't bullshit? Just what if

We'd have been improving our systems through USB add-ons by now.

 

[dragonbane]

The fuck is with the tag.

I WAS CORRECT.

Hahaha. Sorry bro.

 

[fritolay]

I think the problem with the XBOX One is that many people just don't believe what MS is saying is true. The features they do believe they don't like. MS has a PR issue right now with their new system.

 

[phosphor112]

The fuck is with the tag.

I WAS CORRECT.

Lmao.

 

[Impeccable]

The fuck is with the tag.

I WAS CORRECT.

Hahahah

 

[Rebel Leader]

The fuck is with the tag.

I WAS CORRECT.

HA

mine's better than yours

 

[Phonomezer]

Hahaha. Sorry bro.

It's okay, I wouldn't want to bog down NeoGAF with facts..

Spoiler

 

[JaggedSac]

The context is "infinite power of the cloud". That is nothing but marketing speak.

Absolutely.

So....

will this "power" be available for silver members (who dont give MS any money besides purchasing the xbox one) or will they have to be content with the underpowered cloudless version?

Good question for MS to be wishy washy about.

 

[demolitio]

The sad thing is the mass market is going to eat this shit up, It's already happening at my job. I'm thoroughly embarrass to be associated with this species at the moment.

That's the sad part of it all. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt until we actually see it in action and that still doesn't answer all the other questions we have about it as well but the PR talk is going to work on some gamers even before they see it in action. The funny part is that those same people who are buying the PR without any evidence right now are some of the people that don't have "enthusiast" internet or even an option for better internet so they might be screwed in that regard if it has any requirements near other streaming services. OnLive launched too early in that regard considering the average speed in the U.S. alone is still pretty poor so it wasn't feasible as an option yet to a large audience making it kind of a small market and overlapped into the market of people who already had decent gaming PC's.

I'm not fully writing it off but I'm not going to believe everything MS is saying considering they've already contradicted themselves quite a bit in some areas that they're scrambling in so it's hard to fully believe in more PR spin.

Not saying it's going to be garbage or not, but we definitely have to see it in action and for them to already pimp it out in game descriptions, it BETTER be good. There's so many things that can go wrong and so many gray areas with something like this. Not all developers are going to buy into this but maybe it could be useful for exclusives and SOME games. Even then, I can't imagine how the launch of a new Halo game might be if any of it relies on the cloud but I'd like to think they'd be prepared for that...

To actually give it a number like 40x as powerful just makes people more skeptical compared to if they were modest about it. By saying a console goes from 10x to 40x as powerful as the 360 without the actual proof to back that claim, they just sound like salesman trying to make up numbers to close a deal like my old boss back in the day. I understand that they'll probably talk about it at E3, but vaguely mentioning it before really explaining it only hurts them more than it helps because now they have big shoes to fill.

 

[Alx]

-Scanning skateboards?

Done in kinect Fun Labs.

-Star Wars Kinect faked demo?

The game is still legit (although far from perfect). And the scene in the gif wasn't a demo,but a show done by artist performers. You shouldn't consider it real when there are fake players sitting in a couch hanging from the ceiling and flying around.

-PM speaking about Milo and talking nonsense?

This video describes it pretty well: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUISCJDmw5o#t=6m11s

There is no nonsense on the technical part of things. Detecting a piece of white paper, recognizing the color and the shape of the drawing ? Piece of cake. You don't even need a kinect to do that, Eye Pet does it with a webcam.
The nonsense part is PR hyperbole like "even science fiction didn't think of that", but that's just the usual rubbish any smart consumer should be able to filter. You don't think wearing Axe will bring you all the chicks, do you ?
I think it's the same thing for cloud computing. There is no "infinite power" of course (anything infinite has infinite cost anyway), and it won't turn your console into a supercomputer. But it is very probably a real feature, that will have its benefits.

Try just functioning well in people's homes.

Well, it does. All those "it just doesn't work" comments are really annoying when millions of people use it just fine. The main conditions to have it work are to have enough room, and draw the curtains if there is too much sunlight. Those things are reminded at the startup of each kinect game.
Either people are too thick to make it work, or the claims that it doesn't work in most houses is just unfounded.

 

[Stillmatic]

 

[Recon]

Done in kinect Fun Labs.



The game is still legit (although far from perfect). And the scene in the gif wasn't a demo,but a show done by artist performers. You shouldn't consider it real when there are fake players sitting in a couch hanging from the ceiling and flying around.



There is no nonsense on the technical part of things. Detecting a piece of white paper, recognizing the color and the shape of the drawing ? Piece of cake. You don't even need a kinect to do that, Eye Pet does it with a webcam.
The nonsense part is PR hyperbole like "even science fiction didn't think of that", but that's just the usual rubbish any smart consumer should be able to filter. You don't think wearing Axe will bring you all the chicks, do you ?
I think it's the same thing for cloud computing. There is no "infinite power" of course (anything infinite has infinite cost anyway), and it won't turn your console into a supercomputer. But it is very probably a real feature, that will have its benefits.


Well, it does. All those "it just doesn't work" comments are really annoying when millions of people use it just fine. The main conditions to have it work are to have enough room, and draw the curtains if there is too much sunlight. Those things are reminded at the startup of each kinect game.
Either people are too thick to make it work, or the claims that it doesn't work in most houses is just unfounded.

This is a lot of effort to defend something janky.

 

[Absolute Bastard]

Few things come to mind about this cloud stuff.

First the amouth of work that can be offloaded to the cloud depends on the bandwidth and latency of the users internet connection. Developers have no control over this, so are they supposed to write games that scale to users internet connection? That would be really complicated and if someone in the same household starts watching a streaming video or something, game would have to be scaled down?

Second thing is that most work in a game should be latency critical, because latency critical is the stuff that has to be done 30-60 times per second and that easily takes much more resources than stuff that gets done every few seconds or minutes.

I'll believe this shit when I see it running with my own eyes, until then it's marketing bullshit.

 

[Alx]

This is a lot of effort to defend something janky.

See ? That's just what I mean. "Yeah whatever, it just doesn't work". Is that really all you have to backup that claim ?
Most of the negative opinion on those new technologies are just one liners. "It's bullshit". It looks like you don't even want to think about it and how it works.

 

[Recon]

See ? That's just what I mean. "Yeah whatever, it just doesn't work". Is that really all you have to backup that claim ?
Most of the negative opinion on those new technologies are just one liners. "It's bullshit". It looks like you don't even want to think about it and how it works.

I have used it, I have watch others use it. At best it is "sometimes" responsive. Kinect 2 has potential, but you are not gonna lie to me and say Kinect 1.0 worked great. Or maybe you are.But it is still lying.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I think the sad reality is that we're coming to the end of the hardware cycle.

While the "cloud" isn't in it's current state an adaquate substitute, when tied to decent hardware you can rely on it to provide additional feedback.

Take a racing game. Instead of relying on on the physics calculations being done in realtime, you can cull the map data, reference the speed of the car precalculate the physics for the next section of the map and then use the console to mesh that data to provide a more robust and accurate physics simulation at a cheaper performance cost.

The nature of all technology is cyclical. We started off with large computers that could do single tasks, then we created terminals that were connected to those computers, then those terminals became more powerful until we were no longer using server-terminals, slowly we're starting to use them again in various ways, be they online desktops, drop box, onlive or cloud computing.

That said, the ball is in microsofts hands to prove their claim. Show one game without the use of cloud and another with, if there's no noticable difference then they're talking straight shit. Yes some games will inherently make use of it. Games with persistant game worlds can utilize servers to make sure that time flows and things change, but the cloud is not a requirement for such claims.

Software solutions and networking are the wave of the future it seems.

 

[Alx]

I have used it, I have watch others use it. At best it is "sometimes" responsive. Kinect 2 has potential, but you are not gonna lie to me and say Kinect 1.0 worked great. Or maybe you are.But it is still lying.

It does what is written on the box. When I wave at it it reacts. When I move my arms it tracks my arms. When I move my feet it tracks my feet. I don't know what you mean by "sometimes responsive", but for me it's responsive all the time. I just went back to Kinect Adventures lately to farm some achievements, and was even surprised at the quality of the game.

Actually the least responsive thing I get with kinect is the voice recognition, and that's probably because I tend to mumble. And ironically that's the only thing that kinect detractors will accept as a viable feature.

If you had trouble using it, did you at least view the kinect tuner, to make sure that it could see you correctly ? Anyway if you had trouble using the first kinect, I don't think you should count on kinect2 to solve that. Kinect 1 not working would be due to your environment (external lights, furniture) or yourself (clothes fabric, color of skin), and those will be as much of a problem with kinect 2.

 

[artist]

dead @ Gies.

 

[TheD]

Take a racing game. Instead of relying on on the physics calculations being done in realtime, you can cull the map data, reference the speed of the car precalculate the physics for the next section of the map and then use the console mesh that data to provide a more robust and accurate physics simulation at a cheaper performance cost.

That is not even close to possible.

 

[Tookay]

Concept video from over a year before the device was released.

What faked demo?

Again, conceptual. This happens across all areas of industry when introducing new products.

You're moving the goalposts. The original comment said that there wasn't anything in the Natal concept video that wasn't eventually accomplished besides two minor things.

Then the post you're responding to lists more overpromised features.

You can't say it was a "concept video" and treat it as a rebuttal, because that wasn't what was being argued.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

That is not even close to possible.

they do it already.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

LMFAO. Saved!

 

[Recon]

It does what is written on the box. When I wave at it it reacts. When I move my arms it tracks my arms. When I move my feet it tracks my feet. I don't know what you mean by "sometimes responsive", but for me it's responsive all the time. I just went back to Kinect Adventures lately to farm some achievements, and was even surprised at the quality of the game.

Actually the least responsive thing I get with kinect is the voice recognition, and that's probably because I tend to mumble. And ironically that's the only thing that kinect detractors will accept as a viable feature.

If you had trouble using it, did you at least view the kinect tuner, to make sure that it could see you correctly ? Anyway if you had trouble using the first kinect, I don't think you should count on kinect2 to solve that. Kinect 1 not working would be due to your environment (external lights, furniture) or yourself (clothes fabric, color of skin), and those will be as much of a problem with kinect 2.

Just saying the few games I have played and witnessed others play have been non responsive. Yes, you will just blame me and my apparent inability to get basic tech working. Doesnt help that even when the thing did work, it wasnt worth the effort.

 

[TheD]

they do it already.

NO "THEY" DON'T!

It is not possible to precalculate all the possible positions, speeds, wheel tractions ect of a car, there are billions and billions of possible states the car could be in when it gets to a part of a track!

 

[Hulkamania78]

What about off loading non time critical tasks to the cloud? Would that free up processing power?

I must admit I've changd cable cable/ satellite companies this week in the UK. I've been a Virgin Media customer for years but have gone back to Sky who have an app in the UK for there TV. I believe there will be full Sky integration on the Xbox One . Also though I've kept with VirginMedia for my Broadband due to the Xbox reveal. I was looking at downgrading my (120mb d/l , 12mb u/l ) services. But I've lowered the price and stayed with them for another 12 months . I know my line is reliable and has never dropped out.
And I've anticipated the new consoles for 18 months so saved up and am ready with my money but I have questioned whether to go PS4 toally but I know ill want the Xbox One . We're lucky in the UK with the speeds being very good these days but I. Know other parts of the world are not and that's where the problem is.

 

[Jburton]

You can really see the whiteness of people's knuckles as they grasp on to this shit for dear life as if it is some sort of saviour for Xbox One in relation to its weaker silicon and higher overheads in comparison to the PS4.


Before launch it was dual APU's and move engines and secret / special sauce ........ now it's a cloud platform that will help lift the Xbox One hardware above its rival.


I think they have to let go in their head and realise that if this stuff even comes to fruition and helps with some basic tasks being offloaded to the cloud that it will still not compensate for the Xbox One shortfall in processing power in comparison to the PS4.


This is why it is being overinflated and grasped on to for dear life ......... it seems like the last chance that Xbox fans are holding on to in their heads rather than secede the point that PS4 is the better hardware platform.

 

[Phonomezer]

You can really see the whiteness of people's knuckles as they grasp on to this shit for dear life as if it is some sort of saviour for Xbox One in relation to its weaker silicon and higher overheads in comparison to the PS4.


Before launch it was dual APU's and move engines and secret / special sauce ........ now it's a cloud platform that will help lift the Xbox One hardware above its rival.


I think they have to let go in their head and realise that if this stuff even comes to fruition and helps with some basic tasks being offloaded to the cloud that it will still not compensate for the Xbox One shortfall in processing power in comparison to the PS4.


This is why it is being overinflated and grasped on to for dear life ......... it seems like the last chance that Xbox fans are holding on to in their heads rather than secede the point that PS4 is the better hardware platform.

To be fair, nobody saw the cloud thing coming and MS had never mentioned it before.

There will probably be some kind of demonstration at E3.

 

[TheForceWithin]

UNLIMITED POWER!!!