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[chillybright]

Original title: Transgender weightlifter wins international women’s competition, sets national record

Laurel Hubbard competed previously as a man

http://www.outsports.com/2017/3/20/14983388/transgender-weightlifting-laurel-hubbard-wins

New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has won an international powerlifting competition, raising questions about her participation and the new International Olympic Committee policy on transgender athletes.

Hubbard won the over-90kg division at the Australian International in Melbourne, lifting a combined total of 268kg, according to the New Zealand Herald. In doing so she set new national records “in the snatch and clean and jerk,” according to 1 News Now.

Before her transition, Hubbard competed in powerlifting as a man. Now a woman, she wants to continue to compete as her gender.

All of this has riled up some folks who see it as uneven playing fields. Garry Marshall, the president of Olympic Weightlifting New Zealand, said his governing body is simply applying the rules set forth by the IOC. Those rules allow Hubbard to compete as a woman after undergoing certain transitional steps.

With Hubbard’s eyes on bigger prizes, and the next Summer Olympic Games now three years away, this issue isn’t going away anytime soon.

 

[.JayZii]

Do there just need to be four different divisions, rather than two, going forward?

 

[Kerensky]

The high skeletal and muscular mass inherited by men would give her an unfair advantage over other women who don't start with such advantages.

 

[RumblingRosco]

The high skeletal and muscular mass inherited by men would give her an unfair advantage over other women who don't start with such advantages.

The argument is that after a long enough use of hormone replacement therapy, any inherent advantage is removed. I haven't really seen strong scientific evidence to backup this claim however.

 

[daviyoung]

The argument is that after a long enough use of hormone replacement therapy, any inherent advantage is removed. I haven't really seen strong scientific evidence to backup this claim however.

Does it work the other way round too?

 

[BigDug13]

The argument is that after a long enough use of hormone replacement therapy, any inherent advantage is removed. I haven't really seen strong scientific evidence to backup this claim however.

It seems like sporting events have been proving otherwise. There was also that Fallon Fox fight where she broke someone's orbital bone and caused a concussion and the other fighter said she had never felt so overpowered by a female opponent before.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Does it work the other way round too?

FtM? I believe so, but I'm not sure how many thorough peer-reviewed studies there are on this. I'm admittedly not an expert in the study of transitioning, so grain of salt and all that.

 

[Tagyhag]

The argument is that after a long enough use of hormone replacement therapy, any inherent advantage is removed. I haven't really seen strong scientific evidence to backup this claim however.

Yep, there has to be some serious studies that should go on before the Olympics.

And it's just a huge clusterfuck because everyone is different, two people who could be transitioning at the exact same time could have different hormone and muscle levels depending on a variety of factors.

They should find some sort of hormonal average (I'm talking out of my ass here) that would allow people to compete.

It's not fair to the other women because they're getting outclassed, and it's not fair to the women who transitioned because their records will always be tainted by the questioning.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Honestly, female sports are by definition a safe space. It's not to men to decide who can enter this space, but to the women that are in it

 

[Dhx]

The argument is that after a long enough use of hormone replacement therapy, any inherent advantage is removed. I haven't really seen strong scientific evidence to backup this claim however.

And this where I stand. I'm not sure the body of evidence at the highest levels of competition bears out that there is no advantage.

Anecdotally, the real world effects seem one sided (MtF outclassing the competition and setting records in significant volume vs FtM).

I'm certainly interested in further study and reviewing more evidence when it is presented.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Honestly, female sports are by definition a safe space. It's not to men to decide who can enter this space, but to the women that are in it

Who are the men you are referring to here?

It seems like sporting events have been proving otherwise. There was also that Fallon Fox fight where she broke someone's orbital bone and caused a concussion and the other fighter said she had never felt so overpowered by a female opponent before.

And yet Fallon Fox has in fact been beaten and knocked out

 

[Atenhaus]

Honestly, female sports are by definition a safe space. It's not to men to decide who can enter this space, but to the women that are in it

TERFs, in my NeoGAF?

 

[toddhunter]

The high skeletal and muscular mass inherited by men would give her an unfair advantage over other women who don't start with such advantages.

All champions will tend to have some physical advantage over other people. While it might suck if someone doesn't have to work as hard as you, that is the way things are in every sport already.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The reality is a peak athlete who is also a trans woman is rare... there is no risk of trans women taking over women's sports...

 

[wandering]

All champions will tend to have some physical advantage over other people. While it might suck if someone doesn't have to work as hard as you, that is the way things are in every sport already.

Yes, but that's complicated by the fact that gender divisions in sports, like weight classes, are specifically designed to mitigate those inequalities.

 

[womfalcs3]

Easy solution: Eligibility in sports should be based on sex at birth. Not gender after birth.

 

[Nickle]

Seems kind of unfair to the other women, there's not really anything they can do to compete with that.

 

[Pandaman]

All champions will tend to have some physical advantage over other people. While it might suck if someone doesn't have to work as hard as you, that is the way things are in every sport already.

Yeah but male champions specifically have massive advantages against other champions who are female. world record holding women would struggle to make top 8 in mens on an average year.

 

[BlackRainbowFT]

And yet Fallon Fox has in fact been beaten and knocked out

I don't follow combat sports, but this is unsurprising to me. Strength isn't everything and there's no reason a woman couldn't be more technically gifted or more experienced!

Maybe this is less true for disciplines with a lot of holds and grappling. I don't know.

On the other hand weightlifting is way more dependant on your body than technique and on average a man has an "unfair" advantage compared to women.

 

[Sesuadra]

TERFs, in my NeoGAF?

what does TERFs mean?

edit: wait, google tells me "Trans Exclusionary Radical "Feminists"", is that right?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I mean Usain Bolt competing is unfair to every runner but what because he's cis that's ok? (spoilers yet it is)


We're talking about literally a tiny tiny tiny amount of athletes... why are y'all thinking you know better than the IOC?

 

[CryptiK]

There is a no win situation for anyone in this. Either way its going to end up pissing people off.

 

[phaonaut]

The reality is a peak athlete who is also a trans woman is rare... there is no risk of trans women taking over women's sports...

Doesn't really have to be a peak athlete, a good high school team could compete with professional womens teams.

 

[Sunster]

Seems kind of unfair to the other women, there's not really anything they can do to compete with that.

because trans weight lifters always win championships whenever they compete. /s

 

[wandering]

On the other hand weightlifting is way more dependant on your body than technique and on average a man has an "unfair" advantage compared to women.

Technique is actually a huge part of Olympic weightlifting, which is why it's distinct from things like powerlifting and strongman.

We tend to lump any sort of weight-based strength training into the term "weightlifting" but weightlifting as a sport involves a lot of coordination.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Who are the men you are referring to here?



And yet Fallon Fox has in fact been beaten and knocked out

Olimpic committies and such, i believe, are largely men and don't represent the interest of women competitor as a whole.

The issue is women's sport exist exactly because men have inherent physical advantages women can't compete with. MtF winning in those categories would defeat the point of the existence of those categories in the first place.

Obviously this assuming that MtF winning are a statistical significance and not a statistical anomaly in term of winning % to population.

Also please don't compare competing in the olympic to human rights of dignity and living. It's an extremely privileged and trivializing view.

 

[TatteredHat]

The solution lies somewhere between removing all divisions and adding more to the already existing ones.

 

[Greddleok]

It's fine for trans women to compete, as long as they never actually win.

 

[wutwutwut]

Seems like a hard problem. Could testosterone levels be used to pick who to allow in womens' divisions? Genuinely curious.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's fine for trans women to compete, as long as they never actually win.

That's literally what it comes down to heh....

 

[Brenal]

The solution lies somewhere between removing all divisions and adding more to the already existing ones.

That is what im thinking, classification not based by gender but by averaging bone density weight, hormonal levels etc.

 

[perfectchaos007]

A FtM HS wrestler in Texas completely dominated everyone she faced in the girls division on the way to a state title. The crowed boo'd her when she won. It was sad, because she would have competed with the boys if the state allowed her

Here's the thread about it.

There really is not "perfect" solution to this either.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346461&highlight=texas+state+wrestling

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Easy solution: Eligibility in sports should be based on sex at birth. Not gender after birth.

Holy shit! Genius! How did no one else come up with that?

Wait. Not easy, genius, or original. That solution ignores FtM athletes who would now be the ones with an "unfair advantage" in women's sports, and the fact that such a rule is exactly what all trans person don't want - to be forcibly defined by their birth sex.

And if either way someone has a supposed "unfair advantage" in women's sports, then what, do we force ALL trans persons to compete as men? That would be ridiculous, and specifically unfair to MtF athletes, so no.

Then the only other solution would be to ban trans athletes together. No.

So yeah, letting athletes compete with the sex they identify with, after undergoing certain hormonal therapy, actually does seem like the best case. Because for all this talk about "unfair advantages": that's literally what high level sporting championships are about lol. Every record holder, every "best in the world" competitor has a genetic advantage over the rest. Unless you want to ban Bolt and Phelps for being too perfectly built for their sports, it starts getting silly fast once you pass the pretty reasonable standards in place.

 

[MattKeil]

We're talking about literally a tiny tiny tiny amount of athletes... why are y'all thinking you know better than the IOC?

To be fair the IOC is a terrible and corrupt organization that should be dismantled and scattered to the four corners of the Earth to ensure it never reforms to threaten the world again.

But they seem to be pretty on point in this particular matter.

 

[Dhx]

Easy solution: Eligibility in sports should be based on sex at birth. Not gender after birth.

Testosterone makes this unworkable.

Yeah but male champions specifically have massive advantages against other champions who are female. world record holding women would struggle to make top 8 in mens on an average year.

In most sports it's top 400+ and can reach in the thousands. The differences are just too large.

The solution lies somewhere between removing all divisions and adding more to the already existing ones.

Are you including the removal of Male/Female divisions? This would be catastrophic to women in sports.

 

[zoukka]

It's fine for trans women to compete, as long as they never actually win.

A good argument if you don't want to actually argue about this issue.

 

[LostCaress]

We'll have the same problem with the advancement of prosthetics, they will start to give more and more unfair advantages. This will be great because that means a better quality of life for the recipients, but maybe they won't be able to compete in the "normal" categories (or the special olympics will start to have better records)

 

[TatteredHat]

Are you including the removal of Male/Female divisions? This would be catastrophic to women in sports.

I wouldn't actually suggest removing male/female and weight categories, no.

 

[Sunster]

A good argument if you don't want to actually argue about this issue.

whats your argument?

 

[Dhx]

We'll have the same problem with the advancement of prosthetics, they will start to give more and more unfair advantages. This will be great because that means a better quality of life for the recipients, but maybe they won't be able to compete in the "normal" categories (or the special olympics will start to have better records)

Absolutely. See: Oscar Pistorius (Blade Runner)

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Seems like a hard problem. Could testosterone levels be used to pick who to allow in womens' divisions? Genuinely curious.

But that's still a highly problematic prospect. What about a woman who simply has naturally elevated levels? Would they need to undergo hormone therapy to compete with the sex they were both born and identify as?

I suppose you could do away with sex-based classification altogether and treat hormone levels like weight classes but that would be really, really weird. And wouldn't address the other supposed "issues" people are arguing about, like skeletal structure, so many of the same folks would still be throwing fits. And really, there actually are far more differences than just hormones anyway.

 

[Greddleok]

That is what im thinking, classification not based by gender but by averaging bone density weight, hormonal levels etc.

Terrible idea. The top female athletes, even with higher test, bone density etc are not on par with even the worst male athletes.

The whole reason for a separate division is to give women a chance to compete and have the same level of exposure as men. Doesn't always work out, but it's the intention.

The Olympic committee has no problem with trans athletes, and I think there should be some more research into how it can affect competitiors, but the person who wins always has a genetic advantage over other people anyway. It's kind of crazy to say "this person is better because they were born a man." It's just a lot more easy to define than "better work ethic" "faster response in quads" "has a huge adrenaline rush".

It's not like women's sports are dominated by trans athletes. If they are, then we should revisit the issue. Until then, this is just a woman who won.

 

[Chichikov]

Doesn't really have to be a peak athlete, a good high school team could compete with professional womens teams.

Are you aware of a team of high school athletes who are currently transitioning so they can win the regionals or whatever?

Listen, I do not have strong opinions about olympic weightlifting competition policies, but this doesn't strike me as a huge societal crisis, more like something for the officials to figure out how to deal with.
What bother me is that I think such stories are often paraded as a way to either vilify transgender people or push a restrictive agenda in regards to their rights.

I'm not saying you're doing it, but I do think that if we're generally sympathetic to the challenges transgender people face in our society, the least we can do is not exaggerate the scope, reach and the urgency of such issues.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Also please don't compare competing in the olympic to human rights of dignity and living. It's an extremely privileged and trivializing view.

I mean this is kinda rich...

Ok so hold on a sec if arguing that trans women who follow the rules laid ought to be allowed in the Olympics is me being privileged and trivializing of human rights of dingity and living...

Then how the hell is your argument not the same?

You can't tell me that my belief that trans women being allowed to compete is important is privileged while arguing that the sanctity of competition in the Olympics is important and that Trans women maybe shouldn't be allowed to compete because the IOC allowing them to do so is akin to men invading a women's safe space (not an accurate usage of the term, though if it was it would mean that trans women ought to be allowed to compete because safe spaces are about being able to be who you are and not get harassed for it and trans women are women. by allowing them to compete.

Let's compare the two positions:

Mine: At most denies someone else first place
Yours: Denies someone the ability to even participate...

So which one is more privileged?

A FtM HS wrestler in Texas completely dominated everyone she faced in the girls division on the way to a state title. The crowed boo'd her when she won. It was sad, because she would have competed with the boys if the state allowed her

Here's the thread about it.

There really is not "perfect" solution to this either.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346461&highlight=texas+state+wrestling

He, him his... He's a boy please don't use female pronouns.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Doesn't really have to be a peak athlete, a good high school team could compete with professional womens teams.

Am I misreading, or are you implying that a team of 17-year-olds would go through the incredibly expensive, lengthy, and truly arduous process of transitioning, drastically altering their bodies and how they identify socially, in order to take over women's sports?

Or that anyone would?

Or that the process wouldn't at least partially mute the natural physiological advantages a male may have?

It's not like one could just say "hey, I'm totally a chick, let me play yo".

 

[phaonaut]

Are you aware of a team of high school athletes who are currently transitioning so they can win the regionals or whatever?

I never made any such statement.

--

It is wrong to say this only applies to peak athletes when men who would be considered mediocre would be breaking records when compared to women.

This is person that the article is about competed prior to transitioning, but was not breaking records in competition.

Before her transition, Hubbard competed in powerlifting as a man. Now a woman, she wants to continue to compete as her gender.

Hubbard won the over-90kg division at the Australian International in Melbourne, lifting a combined total of 268kg, according to the New Zealand Herald. In doing so she set new national records ”in the snatch and clean and jerk,"

Its dishonest to say that this is fair to other female competitors.


--

Am I misreading, or are you implying that a team of 17-year-olds would go through the incredibly expensive, lengthy, and truly arduous process of transitioning, drastically altering their bodies and how they identify socially, in order to take over women's sports?

You're misreading me.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I know its not the perfect solution, because there is no perfect solution, but to me the best solution would be for MtF and FtM to compete in the male divisions in sports. It sucks, especially for the MtF's who just want to live life as a female, but the fact of the matter is, they do have lingering male hormones that still give them an edge. And as for FtM's, well, they are getting male hormones, testosterone, which gives them an edge over females running on estrogen. So, either way, these transitioned individuals have advantage over the females which means they have to play the next level up which is the mens.

The other solution would be to make a transgendered division, but unfortunately in most suburban and rural areas there aren't enough transgendered athletes to compete against let alone form a team in team sports. I grew up in a town of about 30,000 and I didn't meet a transgendered person until college. In larger cities I'm sure its different and maybe trans leagues could form and thrive but in smaller/mid size areas it would be difficult logistically

He, him his... He's a boy please don't use female pronouns.

gah, my mistake.

 

[Basketball]

Easy solution: Eligibility in sports should be based on sex at birth. Not gender after birth.

This

it is unfair

 

[excelsiorlef]

You know what's unfair? Being born trans

 

[Alchemy]

Seems like a hard problem. Could testosterone levels be used to pick who to allow in womens' divisions? Genuinely curious.

Her testosterone levels would be in the same range as a cis woman if shes been taking HRT for a long enough time, which I believe the IOC rules require. As a trans woman my estrogen and testosterone levels are identical to a cis womans and have been for about two years, I get the levels checked every 3 months and I'm not even an athlete. I'm 6'2" and maybe I wouldn't have been if I was born cis, but theres also taller women than me so who the hell can say.

Typically trans athletes aren't just going to grow their hair out and call it a day. The only question I think can be legitimate here is how much pre-transition muscle can carry over after years of low testosterone. I was never in great shape and I lost a good amount in my upper body, but I also wasn't trying to maintain any.