Yeah i agree, just tossing an idea around, given the limited data of cases like this and studies about how transitionig usually evens the playing field this most likely is just a coincidence, but if this keeps happening lets hope we can workout a better solution.
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MtF lifter wins international womens competition, raises concerns on Olympics policy
- Thread starter chillybright
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Yeah i agree, just tossing an idea around, given the limited data of cases like this and studies about how transitionig usually evens the playing field this most likely is just a coincidence, but if this keeps happening lets hope we can workout a better solution.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Has this happened the other way around? A fTm kicking man ass?
Sunster
Member
yes and people cried over that too. just used different arguments.
? I'm saying that MtF people should not compete in olympic female sports IF they are proven to be statistically significant in terms of performances. Denying "someone else" first place is akin to saying that women should compete in men's division because differences exist anyway and they wouldn't have won first place even in a women's division.
Women divisions were born to exclude men from it because of biological disadvantages. Shouldn't be rocket science. If you allow MtF competitors and IF they prove to be statistically much more likely to win, it's the same as dismantling the division in the first place. It's not about the "sanctity" of anything, but about the right of women as a whole to have a place where they can compete and that they created. IF they decide as a whole, to allow MtF competitors, good for them. IF they don't, good for them. It's not to me to decide, but it should be to them, and with "them" i'm obviously including Transwomen as well.
Conor_Fool
Banned
This topic is difficult.
I'd be very surprised if the process of MtF transition was not abused if they were allowed to participate against females at an Olympic level. And this obviously isn't a stab at the trans community, I'm talking about people that would only go through the transition solely to have a better shot at competing. And that's not fair. I empathize with the trans community in this case as well because it's difficult to fathom a cut and dry solution that satisfies everyone.
Before you all attack me, think about the countless athletes that went to extensive measures of cheating/corruption to ensure their success. It's an EXTREMELY cut throat business. A couple years of hormone treatment is nothing that a desperate athlete wouldn't go through if they truly believed, or more evidence indicated, that it would further their goals of success.
Of course that has happened. But has a FtM ever set national records and dominated an international men's tournament that they didn't before transitioning?
I'd be very surprised if the process of MtF transition was not abused if they were allowed to participate against females at an Olympic level. And this obviously isn't a stab at the trans community, I'm talking about people that would only go through the transition solely to have a better shot at competing. And that's not fair. I empathize with the trans community in this case as well because it's difficult to fathom a cut and dry solution that satisfies everyone.
Before you all attack me, think about the countless athletes that went to extensive measures of cheating/corruption to ensure their success. It's an EXTREMELY cut throat business. A couple years of hormone treatment is nothing that a desperate athlete wouldn't go through if they truly believed, or more evidence indicated, that it would further their goals of success.
Of course that has happened. But has a FtM ever set national records and dominated an international men's tournament that they didn't before transitioning?
One obvious question to consider here: is this actually surprising or unexpected?
Let's do some back of the envelope math. How many sporting events are there of similar importance to the Australian International weightlifting competition? Well, the event is under the aegis of the International Weightlifting Federation. Checking out their calendar, and counting just the official IWF events, I count 22 weightlifting events this year alone. And if the Australian International is standard in format, it looks like there are 8 weight classes for women.
Ok, now we have to recall that weightlifting is not actually the only sport. In fact there are a significant number of sports that are approximately as interesting as weightlifting, and would similarly merit some kind of news story like this one. Let's be real this is an Olympic sport and so no one really cares except when we can all have fun cheering for our country during the actual Olympics. So let's count up the sports in the Summer Olympics and use that as a baseline for number of sports of this boringness level. There are 42.
So what do we get? Multiply 22x8x42 and that gives us a super rough estimate of 7392 possible wins of approximately this level of noteworthiness in women's sports this year. Arguably this is overstating the case since we don't actually know that the other minor sports have a similar number of events, and while some have even more categories, some don't have classes or categories at all. On the other hand, given that a state high school wrestling tournament was enough to make the news, it seems more likely to me we're not casting our net nearly wide enough. But what the hell, let's go conservative and drop down to 5000.
Ok, now. What would we expect to see given independence of our two variables? (Remember, we're wondering about transgender women winning sporting competitions. We want to know if there might be a relationship between being a woman who has transitioned and winning at sports that no one typically gives a shit about.) From what I've been able to find, a commonly used current estimate for the proportion of the population that is transgender is 0.6%. Great, let's pop em together. 5000 potential wins times 0.6% gets us an expected 30 transgender women winning uninteresting sports in a given year. The number we've seen so far this year: 1.
I think we might still be a little ways from needing to worry that transgender women are winning too much at uninteresting sports.
(Side note: there were 972 total medals handed out at the last Summer Olympics. Let's say slightly less than half were for women's events, call it 450. Multiply by 0.6%, we would expect (a little less than) three transgender women winning medals at a Summer Olympics.)
Let's do some back of the envelope math. How many sporting events are there of similar importance to the Australian International weightlifting competition? Well, the event is under the aegis of the International Weightlifting Federation. Checking out their calendar, and counting just the official IWF events, I count 22 weightlifting events this year alone. And if the Australian International is standard in format, it looks like there are 8 weight classes for women.
Ok, now we have to recall that weightlifting is not actually the only sport. In fact there are a significant number of sports that are approximately as interesting as weightlifting, and would similarly merit some kind of news story like this one. Let's be real this is an Olympic sport and so no one really cares except when we can all have fun cheering for our country during the actual Olympics. So let's count up the sports in the Summer Olympics and use that as a baseline for number of sports of this boringness level. There are 42.
So what do we get? Multiply 22x8x42 and that gives us a super rough estimate of 7392 possible wins of approximately this level of noteworthiness in women's sports this year. Arguably this is overstating the case since we don't actually know that the other minor sports have a similar number of events, and while some have even more categories, some don't have classes or categories at all. On the other hand, given that a state high school wrestling tournament was enough to make the news, it seems more likely to me we're not casting our net nearly wide enough. But what the hell, let's go conservative and drop down to 5000.
Ok, now. What would we expect to see given independence of our two variables? (Remember, we're wondering about transgender women winning sporting competitions. We want to know if there might be a relationship between being a woman who has transitioned and winning at sports that no one typically gives a shit about.) From what I've been able to find, a commonly used current estimate for the proportion of the population that is transgender is 0.6%. Great, let's pop em together. 5000 potential wins times 0.6% gets us an expected 30 transgender women winning uninteresting sports in a given year. The number we've seen so far this year: 1.
I think we might still be a little ways from needing to worry that transgender women are winning too much at uninteresting sports.
(Side note: there were 972 total medals handed out at the last Summer Olympics. Let's say slightly less than half were for women's events, call it 450. Multiply by 0.6%, we would expect (a little less than) three transgender women winning medals at a Summer Olympics.)
God damn startling truth.
People will not transition medically just to compete at an Olympic level. We're talking about taking hormones that have MASSIVE impacts on your body permanently over the course of years to end up with testosterone and estrogen levels identical to cis women. Heres a quick grab off Wikipedia:
I imagine the mental health impact of a cis person undergoing medical transition is going to be beyond devastating. Breast growth is going to be permanent without surgery and infertility can be permanent. Also heres a snippet of the IOC rules:
You don't just get to say "I'm a girl now" and get to compete.
excelsiorlef
Member
Trans women are women... (MtF is a pretty outdated term btdubs), it's really not that different from a cis women being born with the genetic lottery of being predisposed to being a great athlete. Again Usain bolt dominates every competition he's in, it's basically been a race for 2nd the entire time.. is it unfair that he's allowed to compete?
So honest question is it just sports that you want to say women get to decide if trans women are welcome or not?
Honest question how many trans women athletes do you think there are... they've been allowed to compete in the Olympics for 13 years... How come they have taken over women's sports yet?
Letting a freaking handful of trans folk who a) transition young enough to compete b) are athletic enough to compete at an olympic level is not the same thing as dismantling the entire separation between women and men's divisions...
Competing in the olympics is not a right, its blatantly not fair on the other athletes to have people taking testosterone competing against them.
The fact this woman has done much better after transitioning, than as a male, is clear evidence of a huge unfair advantage being given out for the sake of political correctness.
The fact this woman has done much better after transitioning, than as a male, is clear evidence of a huge unfair advantage being given out for the sake of political correctness.
excelsiorlef
Member
What?
She's a woman... she's not taking freaking testosterone... Quit the opposite she's been on a steady estrogen regiment for at least 2+ years
Conor_Fool
Banned
I agree with everything you said except for the first sentence. Like I said, there is a lot of desperation in sports. The mental health impact would be astronomical for a man that transitioned solely for the reason of sports. But if I remember right, the more extreme performance enhancing drugs come with their fair share of side effects as well. Desperation and obsession with success in itself has its fair share as well, especially when someone has been doing the sport their entire life and never quite excelled as much as they'd wish. And if scientific research confirms that the transition holds even slight benefits in the long run, I personally think that we will see imposters abusing the system.
Definitely a case that brings this all into question. Used to powerlift in men's competitions. Now power lifts in women's competitions. Did the years of hormones at least reduce the lifting she used to be capable of?
Situation is probably rare enough to not have to change any policy over or worry about though
Situation is probably rare enough to not have to change any policy over or worry about though
Sunster
Member
lol no we won't.
You can't live as a man for 20 years without inheriting some advantages post female transition. Bone structure, muscle mass etc.
Seems to be a complicated issue that honestly should not be one size fits all.
The lifter in question transitioned after they were well into their 30s so they experienced full development as a Male and that includes their muscle mass etc. and were already a Weight Lifting competitor before transition. Yes transitioning has an impact but if your already dedicating your daily life to building muscle mass etc. the effects are not going to be nearly as pronounced as someone who just does normal daily life.
The lifter in question transitioned after they were well into their 30s so they experienced full development as a Male and that includes their muscle mass etc. and were already a Weight Lifting competitor before transition. Yes transitioning has an impact but if your already dedicating your daily life to building muscle mass etc. the effects are not going to be nearly as pronounced as someone who just does normal daily life.
Yeah, this is completely unfair.
I'm all for giving MtF & FtM trans people the chance to compete in the athletic competitions they're passionate about but it shouldn't be at the cost of the established fairness. The idea of seperate divisions seems like the best solution because it would keep things fair whilst also calling the competitors by their preferred gender pronoun.
I'm all for giving MtF & FtM trans people the chance to compete in the athletic competitions they're passionate about but it shouldn't be at the cost of the established fairness. The idea of seperate divisions seems like the best solution because it would keep things fair whilst also calling the competitors by their preferred gender pronoun.
Ok. Is it possible that someone would decide to lie about a deep and fundamental part of their identity, collude with medical professionals, and go through a traumatic and permanently life-changing experience in order to move to a lower division of their chosen sport and perhaps have a better chance of winning? I guess.
Do we know how often someone can't hack it in pro sports, fakes being younger than they really are, and joins a college team in their favorite sport so that they have a shot at winning? I remember hearing about this happening, like, once. Maybe it's happened at other times. But this seems like the same order of magnitude of lies and life-changingness in order to have a better shot at winning at a lower level. Are we super worried about this possibility? Why or why not?
excelsiorlef
Member
This is literally the same logic but actually like a thousand times more improbable (because we're talking about someone faking being a trans woman 24/7 with all the fooling of the medical community required for literally years) as bathroom laws... cis men might pretend to be women for nefarious reasons.
Like you are literally arguing that a significant number of men are going to literally go
through the entire transition process to become women the same way they might take steroids or something... like do you know how ridiculous this sounds?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
This is like saying to those who compete in the sport of weightlifting, "Stop talking about this, your sport is not important enough for us to worry about you, lol."
excelsiorlef
Member
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanna-harper/three-myths-about-transge_b_10504312.html
Look I found someone who didn't win...
And my god Trans women make up 0.00001% of NCAA athletes and none in Division I
Conor_Fool
Banned
Because one is legal and one is not. I should have elaborated on that with my comparison to the more extreme performance enhancing drugs, which I wrote with anabolic steroids in mind. Steroids fuck you up physically and mentally AND they're illegal, but countless athletes still do it and even use methods of extreme intimidation to keep the secret (see Lance Armstrong). Years later, he gets caught and everyone sees him as the piece of filth that he is. Just like your example of the liar sneaking his way in; the lie makes them vulnerable.
In the case of a non trans man transitioning into a female for the sole purpose of personal gain and success in the sport they play, it is legal. Are the mental health effects going to be more than steroids? Yes. But it is a legal way to get an advantage. They remain untouchable from getting their medals and achievements stripped of them, like what happened to Lance.
I'm not acting like I'm on to some grand conspiracy here everyone. All I'm saying is that this is a slippery slope that I firmly believe would be abused if scientific evidence pointed toward MtF having a distinct physical advantage.
Please spare me the condescending replies. I'm spending time writing out my beliefs, if you don't agree with them then you can present an opposing viewpoint. I'm always open to hear people out, I'm not open to being mindlessly shut down. Who knows, we may even agree on some things!
excelsiorlef
Member
So you literally believe that men who identify as men will start living their entire life as women and undergo complete hormonal treatment to win at sports...
Steroids to require you to complete change your freaking identity, you have zero idea about gender dysphoria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Here read this. This is a man who was coercively raised as a girl from birth, literally from freaking birth and yet when he reached puberty and was forced to take female hormones suffered severely mentally from it to the point where years later he transitioned properly back to being a male but even then ended up committing suicide over his ordeal...
That is how powerful gender identity is... a tabular rasa baby even knew who they were supposed to be by the time they reached of age... that's the effect of being physically who you aren't supposed to be...
Men are not going to undertake this ordeal and literally turn themselves into trans men (and I mean trans men because they'd still identify as men) to compete as women... this is freaking insane...
andythinkpad
Member
It's still unfair to the other female weightlifters.
Conor_Fool
Banned
If it's the difference between their name ultimately being forgotten and an Olympic medal? Yes.
I have clarified multiple times that this is only if scientific evidence shows a significant benefit. And if that's the case, everyone knows that some people do fucked up shit to achieve their dreams of success and fame.
And I have read the tragic story of David Reimer. I don't fully understand the experience that David went through and I don't fully understand the spectrum of experiences that all trans people go through because I have not experienced that. I hate that I've either hurt you and other posters feelings or angered you with my beliefs, but David's story does not change where I stand with the article that this entire thread is about. David was not given a choice, the hypothetical narcissistic athlete in my example does have a choice. David is the antithesis of the type of person I'm talking about that would do this. I just don't think that this is fair in Olympic sports and I think its legality would be abused.
There could be ways to balance this out somehow. People who have such an advantage would just need to lift more than the competition. In bobsleigh the add weights to the vehicles to accomodate the different body weights of the athletes and in ski jump you add or distract some points depending on how good/bad your wind conditions are at the moment of your jump. It'll be hard to figure a fair method out but it's not impossible.
excelsiorlef
Member
Triscuitable
Member
This is the debate we'll see long after trans rights are commonly accepted as basic human rights instead of a core component of political debates. There's really no ideal solution towards this; pretty much every conceivable solution would be singling these athletes out based on the fact that they're trans, which is not okay.
Depends on how long they've been on HRT, and how early in life they started. Bone density and muscle mass increase with testosterone, and decrease with estrogen. It's not an enormous difference, but it is tangible. The earlier in life that you start HRT (typically before puberty), the more dramatically your skeletal structure can be affected as well. Testosterone often results in broad shoulders, for instance.
Depends on how long they've been on HRT, and how early in life they started. Bone density and muscle mass increase with testosterone, and decrease with estrogen. It's not an enormous difference, but it is tangible. The earlier in life that you start HRT (typically before puberty), the more dramatically your skeletal structure can be affected as well. Testosterone often results in broad shoulders, for instance.
Obviously totally unfair.
And the "so few cases that it's not statistically relevant therefore we can ignore it"-argument would probably not sit nicely with the incredible, dedicated women that did everything they could but lost due to genetics in this competetion.
In this competetion alone: Not letting her compete is unfair to 1. Letting her compete is unfair to many.
My suggestion: Create a separate division for MtF and another for FtM. Both FtM and MtF are allowed to compete with men.
And the "so few cases that it's not statistically relevant therefore we can ignore it"-argument would probably not sit nicely with the incredible, dedicated women that did everything they could but lost due to genetics in this competetion.
In this competetion alone: Not letting her compete is unfair to 1. Letting her compete is unfair to many.
My suggestion: Create a separate division for MtF and another for FtM. Both FtM and MtF are allowed to compete with men.
Triscuitable
Member
That's segregating groups based on whether you're trans or not, and it defeats the point of what trans people try to achieve by transitioning while simultaneously being pretty fucked up. It essentially says "you're not actually men or women, you're just people changing your bodies and you should be treated differently from those who are assigned male or female at birth as a result".
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Completely fair. This is the pic of the woman that won.
excelsiorlef
Member
But trans women are women... you make it sound like trans women just transition and don't work hard and train and just coast on being trans...
Also this literally kinda describes athletics in general.... Training the best doesn't mean you win... A lot of it does in fact come down to genetics.
BlackRainbowFT
Member
I know that. I just said that if you take both disciplines, strength plays a bigger role in weightlifting than combat. I didn't say it was brute force and that's it.
Is this really necessary?Completely fair. This is the pic of the woman that won.
Anyway, it's a horrible situation all around. Obviously trans women and men should be able to compete as the gender they identify as. Socially and morally, that's perfectly fine. But the physical differences does make it a tricky subject that I can't see as having an easy solution. It either makes for an unfair playing field (albeit rarely) or steps on trans rights which are already too far and few between
IISANDERII
Member
That tiny fraction just broke the dreams of 63 of her competitors while showboating to a national record.
Lol the IOC. Probably the most corrupt and destructive sport body on Earth.
Conor_Fool
Banned
I edited my post to respond to your earlier edit.
Our discussion has gotten out of hand so I'll just see myself out. I hope you wont be so quick to assume things about other posters in the future, I bet we have more in common than you'd think.
Gender and weight classes are designed specifically to minimise genetic advantages.
Obviously they can't be eliminated entirely, but allowing a male-to-female transsexual to compete with women is the exact opposite of minimising genetic differences.
YourMaster
Member
The only way to ever get this fair, is to just have a single division where all humans are allowed to participate.
Or if you want multiple divisions to have more sporting events, allow one division for 'normal' humans, and one for 'doped up' humans that may use whatever performance enhancing drug they want. Or maybe even add a cyborg division.
We can do away with all the bullshit were people get opportunities in live beyond the actual sporting events, like linking college scholarships to athletic ability.
Or if you want multiple divisions to have more sporting events, allow one division for 'normal' humans, and one for 'doped up' humans that may use whatever performance enhancing drug they want. Or maybe even add a cyborg division.
We can do away with all the bullshit were people get opportunities in live beyond the actual sporting events, like linking college scholarships to athletic ability.
I understand that it is difficult.
Trans women are women. Trans women are women with many years of testosterone going through the body, giving them stronger bones and more muscle mass.
The hardships or being trans are probably beyond what I can even imagine, since I haven't gone through it myself, and I want to make sure we as a society do our best to make sure this becomes less hard; but not at the direct expense of other peoples struggles and hardships. This will only breed more frustration and lead to less understanding and acceptance. This is about a sport, and inside the sport the rules should be formed to make sure competing is as fair as can be.
Of course, some people are born with certain disadvantages and other with advantages, before even bringing up trans, but the rules should be such that we avoid this if we can, to make the sport as fair as possible. So we separate men and women. And we separate people with physical disabilities from people that have no physical disabilities. Separation in other areas of life are unfair, but in sports it is unfair to -not- separate.
excelsiorlef
Member
What did I assume that you don't really have a grasp on transitioning and what it means?
I mean you use literally the logic used to legislate trans women out of women's bathrooms (cis men will do crazy shit) but then lecture me on being quick to assume?
You have provided no basis beyond on assumption that cis male athletes are going to become women for medals except your "instinct" and dismiss a direct example of what becoming the gender you are not does to someone... David is no different... he was a assigned female and treated as female when he was always male. These athletes would literally have to be women like socially and psychically they would be treated as women... even though they're men... they would literally be David only older....
Like please just understand that you are arguing that men in some significant number are just going to become women to win medals... and not just dress but fully hormonally and socially transition to win medals... Like I honestly just want you to understand what you are claiming.
DiscoJer
Member
The reality of that is that there would basically be no women in sports. Women don't compete in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS, or MLB not because there are rules against it, but because no one even close to being athletic enough.
That's not to say that athletic women aren't more athletic than most men. But there's like a 5% gap between the best and there are always enough men to push out even the best women.
truestatic
Member
If the advantage of being an MtF competing in a women's category is non negligible though, it very well could deny cis women the ability to participate at a world class level. I'm not sure what the right choice is here, but unless the advantage is negligible, I do think its more complicated than you're making it out to be.
Sunster
Member
where is your proof that it isn't negligible?
You lost me here I'm afraid. It may be an uninteresting sport to you (and to me for that matter) but it's incredibly dismissive of all the women who took part in the competition, who have spent their lives training for such an event, and for whom the sport is interesting and does matter. Your disinterest in such a sport should not undermine ensuring that the playing field between participants for whom this is a huge deal should be as even as possible.
Look, I'm all for ensuring the transgendered people are as widely accepted into society as possible, but some of the arguments in this thread are intellectually dishonest. And throwing the 'you know what's unfair? Being born trans' statement into the ring is cheap emotional manipulation in lieu of an argument. Yes it's terribly unfair and anyone who feels trapped in the wrong body has my utmost sympathy. That doesn't mean, however, that competitive bodies should not strive to ensure that the competitions they run are as fair as possible.
It is simply dishonest to say that, because there is genetic variation even within competitors of the same gender, it isn't unfair if someone with years of testosterone exposure competes in the same field as competitors who haven't. It may be the case that one competitor has the edge over another due to genetics, but by and large they have been dealt the same hand, with similar levels of hormones exposure and so on. There will always be people slightly bigger, slightly broader, with slightly more muscle mass and so on. But to claim this is the same as competing against someone who may have had 20 years of exposure to high testosterone levels, along with all the changes to bone structure and muscle mass that comes with this, is simply incorrect.
In an ideal world this wouldn't be an issue, but respect and sympathy for transgendered people does not equate to dismissing the hopes, dreams and hard work of the people competing in that field, no matter how boring the sport may be or how rare it may be.
truestatic
Member
I have absolutely no evidence that it's significant. Only my own uncertainty.
excelsiorlef
Member
So let me just make sure I'm clear. talking about how being born trans is unfair is a "cheap emotional manipulation in lieu of an argument" but invoking the "hopes, dreams and hard work of the people competing in that field, no matter how boring the sport may be or how rare it may be" totally isn't?
I mean that's literally what this comes down too... it's unfair..
You say it's unfair because genetic advantage and then you focus/highlight the hopes, dreams and hard work for cis women.
I say it's unfair because trans women are women and didn't ask to be born as not cis women and that there are in fact rules and research in place for trans women participation designed to address your concerns...
It seems unfair to only call my argument emotionally manipulative
There's a strain in the conversation I've noticed: constant reference to cis women as hard working, training hard, dreaming big, etc... as if trans women aren't also hard working, training hard and dreaming big...
Also what gets ignored is the stakes: It's unfair because cis women might not get to win vs it's unfair because trans women won't even get to participate...
That woman pictured above shouldn't be in the same category as the other naturally born women.
The best option and most fair is to have a separate category for people that have transitioned, that isn't going to happen anytime soon though, in the meantime, the only thing that's able to happen is to limit it by the sex that you're born as, not the gender that you identify as.
Extremely unpopular opinion here, I know, and I'm sorry. But there is no way to please everyone in this case.
The best option and most fair is to have a separate category for people that have transitioned, that isn't going to happen anytime soon though, in the meantime, the only thing that's able to happen is to limit it by the sex that you're born as, not the gender that you identify as.
Extremely unpopular opinion here, I know, and I'm sorry. But there is no way to please everyone in this case.
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