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[truestatic]

That woman pictured above shouldn't be in the same category as the other naturally born women.

The best option and most fair is to have a separate category for people that have transitioned, that isn't going to happen anytime soon though, in the meantime, the only thing that's able to happen is to limit it by the sex that you're born as, not the gender that you identify as.

Extremely unpopular opinion here, I know, and I'm sorry. But there is no way to please everyone in this case.

Yeah just seeing the pic makes it look unfair.

I think that picture is very deliberately framed to be deceptive. I'm pretty sure that the three of them are standing on the podium, and that Laurel is not so much taller than her opponents as the picture suggests. What's more, hers is the only body actually in the shot. Our minds are filling in a lot of blanks here.

 

[Easy_D]

Honestly, female sports are by definition a safe space. It's not to men to decide who can enter this space, but to the women that are in it

Yeah but the issue here is the classification of what makes a woman a woman. Is a woman any less a woman in certain situations? Do some women have more say than other women?

 

[the1npc]

I think that picture is very deliberately framed to be deceptive. I'm pretty sure that the three of them are standing on the podium, and that Laurel is not so much taller than her opponents as the picture suggests. What's more, hers is the only body actually in the shot. Our minds are filling in a lot of blanks here.

Yeah some more context would be good.

 

[TTG]

They actually allowed her to compete? I thought this was just an argument sports radio hosts liked to have on slow days. Someone needs to bring this case before Gandalf, or whatever it is they do over there, before she gets what is probably their only olympic spot. I'm guessing spots for the international team are also at stake, that needs to be resolved.

Here's an analogy for those of you who, excuse the meme, don't even lift. It's like showing up to a Honda Civic event in a Corvette because fuck it I want to race and this is the car I've got.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Trans women are women... (MtF is a pretty outdated term btdubs), it's really not that different from a cis women being born with the genetic lottery of being predisposed to being a great athlete. Again Usain bolt dominates every competition he's in, it's basically been a race for 2nd the entire time.. is it unfair that he's allowed to compete?

So honest question is it just sports that you want to say women get to decide if trans women are welcome or not?

Honest question how many trans women athletes do you think there are... they've been allowed to compete in the Olympics for 13 years... How come they have taken over women's sports yet?

Letting a freaking handful of trans folk who a) transition young enough to compete b) are athletic enough to compete at an olympic level is not the same thing as dismantling the entire separation between women and men's divisions...

Seems like you aren't reading what i'm writing so i'm not gonna answer to your points.

One point however i will: Usain Bolt don't compete in the "male" division of sport. He's simply competing in a free for all where the best win. That's no safe space or limited division. If anything, it show how in a "best for all" category, it's only men. I recall only an event about 10 years ago where a women played in a man team in some B-tier division. She didn't play a single game , but it made the news. Beside that, women can compete in archery, shooting, and equestrian/sailing sports, which i admit would be interesting to see.

 

[excelsiorlef]

More examples of how trans athletes don't just waltz in and win

Forty two years ago, in 1975, an American tennis player – and doctor - Richard Raskind transitioned from male to female and became Renee Richards.
She applied to play in the US Open Women's singles and was refused. The US Tennis Association insisting that entrants in their tournament could only play in the events for the gender they were born.
Richards took the case to the New York State court, citing Human Rights law.
Two years later she won and played in the US Open Women's singles and doubles from 1977 to 1981. Actually, she made the 1977 doubles final, but her best result in singles was the 3rd round of 1979.

In 2010 the US LPGA, the richest tour in women's golf, also relented and golfers born as men may now compete on the LPGA Tour.
But despite their seemingly obvious advantages of strength and power, neither Richards nor Bagger - or any other transitioned athlete – has come anywhere near the top of their sport.

Oh and about Laurel herself?:

She competes in the 90 kilograms and over division.
On Sunday her combined total in Melbourne for the snatch followed by the clean and jerk was 268 kgs.
At the 2014 Commonwealth Games, the heaviest division for women was 75 kilos and over. The winner was Maryam Usman of Nigeria whose total was 280kgs. The silver went to Ele Opeloge of Samoa with 271kgs. New Zealand's Tracey Lambrechs was a long way back in third on 237kgs.
At the Olympics last year, the winning total for that same 75 kilogram plus division was 307 kilograms.
Ms Hubbard's total on Sunday night would have earned her a bronze medal in Glasgow but just 8th place in Rio.
Next year the 90 kilogram plus division is on the Commonwealth Games schedule and Laurel Hubbard will surely be New Zealand's representative.
But the numbers from Sunday night suggest she still has a long way to go to match the best in the Commonwealth, let alone the best in the world.

Her lift would have placed her literally 8th at Rio and only 3rd at the Commonwealth Games

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/spo...d-should-allowed-compete-without-being-abused

 

[G.ZZZ]

Yeah but the issue here is the classification of what makes a woman a woman. Is a woman any less a woman in certain situations? Do some women have more say than other women?

No, transwomen are women (to me). Being a woman but not being able to partecipate in the Olympics women division don't make you any less so. However, by democracy, it stand to all of them to find a "solution" together and not to men, which i guess the majority of posters in here are, including me.

 

[The Greek Freak]

ITT: People who don't realize the muscular and skeletal structures that give men significant advantages in terms of physical strength are in place long before puberty, and are not changed by HRT.

This is a great example of being pro rights of any group until it is negatively and unfairly hurting another group.

I do not look forward to the day that China/Russia does something super shady in the Olympics and every trans piece of news for 5 years gets tied to it, ugh.

 

[pastrami]

This transwomen lifts 268kg in the 90+ kg weight division. The Olympic record for 75+ kg is 333 kg. She barely beat out the 63kg weight class olympic record of 262 kg.

For someone who supposedly has a massive advantage from her skeletal structure, muscle mass from before transitioning, etc, these results are pretty disappointing.

Btw, the Olympic record for the lowest weight class for men (56 kg) is 307kg.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Seems like you aren't reading what i'm writing so i'm not gonna answer to your points.

One point however i will: Usain Bolt don't compete in the "male" division of sport. He's simply competing in a free for all where the best win. That's no safe space or limited division. If anything, it show how in a "best for all" category, it's only men. I recall only an event about 10 years ago where a women played in a man team in some B-tier division. She didn't play a single game , but it made the news. Beside that, women can compete in archery, shooting, and equestrian/sailing sports, which i admit would be interesting to see.

Do you have a source for that?

Cause pretty sure it's called the Men's 4x4 Relay and what not at the Olympics... Trans men can compete unrestricted (which is new they used to have to have surgery) sure but I believe they still have to identify as men.

Also and with all due respect why reply to me at all just to say you're not going to really reply to me? And yeah maybe I didn't get your points very well (that's why I asked questions) didn't help that you accused me of arguing from privilege.

 

[Fred-87]

All champions will tend to have some physical advantage over other people. While it might suck if someone doesn't have to work as hard as you, that is the way things are in every sport already.

we are talking about weightlifting here. Not some teamsport where a smaller person can still have advantage if that person is fast or technical. Weightlifting is about technique and strenght. But you need both. With some teamsports you can do with only one of them if your good.

It sucks for her but its just not fair for the others.

 

[excelsiorlef]

we are talking about weightlifting here. Not some teamsport where a smaller person can still have advantage if that person is fast or technical. Weightlifting is about technique and strenght. But you need both. With some teamsports you can do with only one of them if your good.

It sucks for her but its just not fair for the others.

Please understand that she's just pretty good for New Zealand but nothing special skill wise overall... She's have finished 8th at Rio....

See this post and the article I posted....

This transwomen lifts 268kg in the 90+ kg weight division. The Olympic record for 75+ kg is 333 kg. She barely beat out the 63kg weight class olympic record of 262 kg.

For someone who supposedly has a massive advantage from her skeletal structure, muscle mass from before transitioning, etc, these results are pretty disappointing.

Btw, the Olympic record for the lowest weight class for men (56 kg) is 307kg.

 

[TTG]

This transwomen lifts 268kg in the 90+ kg weight division. The Olympic record for 75+ kg is 333 kg. She barely beat out the 63kg weight class olympic record of 262 kg.

For someone who supposedly has a massive advantage from her skeletal structure, muscle mass from before transitioning, etc, these results are pretty disappointing.

Btw, the Olympic record for the lowest weight class for men (56 kg) is 307kg.

She does have a massive advantage and her results are "pretty disappointing" relative to the greatest female lifters of all time. You seem to underestimate how seriously the world takes weightlifting.


EDIT:

Please understand that she's just pretty good for New Zealand but nothing special skill wise overall... She's have finished 8th at Rio....

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. 8th at Rio is not "nothing special." She's nothing special considering the advantages she has.

 

[excelsiorlef]

She does have a massive advantage and her results are "pretty disappointing" relative to the greatest female lifters of all time. You seem to underestimate how seriously the world takes weightlifting.

She'd have finished 8th at Rio... 8th.

Not even near medal contention.

 

[Cetra]

It's fine for trans women to compete, as long as they never actually win.

And there's the truth.

 

[IISANDERII]

8th best on the entire planet is outstanding.

But I can well imagine that somebody would be so disappointed by that they'd do anything to win. Even compete in a female division.

 

[TTG]

She'd have finished 8th at Rio... 8th.

Not even near medal contention.

Here's USA's best hope at the upcoming games: Mattie Rogers. I use her instagram because maybe her 421 thousand followers are somehow a better barometer for success for you than being 8th in the world at something. She didn't get a spot to compete at Rio at all because it's not so easy to get there.

Again and for the last time, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Hoo-doo]

She'd have finished 8th at Rio... 8th.

Not even near medal contention.

'Only' 8th in the freaking Olympic Games. You do realize those are the best of the best in the world, right?

 

[excelsiorlef]

She does have a massive advantage and her results are "pretty disappointing" relative to the greatest female lifters of all time. You seem to underestimate how seriously the world takes weightlifting.


EDIT:



Again, you don't know what you're talking about. 8th at Rio is not "nothing special." She's nothing special considering the advantages she has.

So let me get this straight her finishing with what would be 8th at Rio doesn't prove that what research and the IOC rules say is true, that extended Hormone replacement therapy over several years (which in this case is somewhere closer to 10 years than 2 years) negates a lot of the advantages trans women have before HRT, but that instead that her would be 8th place at Rio still proves that she shouldn't be allowed to compete because clearly she just didn't try hard enough or something?

 

[Hoo-doo]

So let me get this straight her finishing with what would be 8th at Rio doesn't prove that what research and the IOC rules say is true, that extended Hormone replacement therapy over several years (which in this case is somewhere closer to 10 years than 2 years) negates a lot of the advantages trans women have before HRT, but that instead that her would be 8th place at Rio still proves that she shouldn't be allowed to compete because clearly she just didn't try hard enough or something?

For comparison, how would she have fared in Rio if we take her lifting stats from before the transition and put her in the men's category? Would she still be 8th in the world?

 

[BigDug13]

It's fine for trans women to compete, as long as they never actually win.

When the first ones allowed to compete are breaking national records in the sport, it certainly raises eyebrows. This isn't just "winning", this is winning bigly.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Her testosterone levels would be in the same range as a cis woman if shes been taking HRT for a long enough time, which I believe the IOC rules require. As a trans woman my estrogen and testosterone levels are identical to a cis womans and have been for about two years, I get the levels checked every 3 months and I'm not even an athlete. I'm 6'2" and maybe I wouldn't have been if I was born cis, but theres also taller women than me so who the hell can say.

Typically trans athletes aren't just going to grow their hair out and call it a day. The only question I think can be legitimate here is how much pre-transition muscle can carry over after years of low testosterone. I was never in great shape and I lost a good amount in my upper body, but I also wasn't trying to maintain any.

I would also say her sport is also one where continued PED use is a significant factor, which would allow her to keep the muscle on and strength up even while continuing HRT. I am not accusing her of using PEDs, just that it is a common concern in any high-level competition such as this.

More examples of how trans athletes don't just waltz in and win

Renee Richards was twice the age of her competition. I would say she was doing something pretty damn impressive. How many 45-year-olds are there in the top 20 rankings now?

Per wiki:

Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying “Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”[20][21]

 

[KarneeKarnay]

The issue here is really tough, because if you are trans, then you are stuck with the body of the wrong gender.

However in physical sports, you don't really have a choice. No amount of surgery can change you into a woman or a man. I know there are study's that say there is no difference after long term use of hormonal medication, but....

For those don't know, in the sport mentioned in the example, world records are set in a differences of single kgs. It is very rare to see people break the record by more than one kg.

This was broken in the 10+ kg bracket. As far as I am concerned that is an unfair advantage that the body builder had.

There is no easy answer in this case and I feel no matter what decisions are made, people are still going to be hurt. Really it's up to science to one day find a third option here. Head transplants are a thing, maybe body swaps could someday happen.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

The reality is a peak athlete who is also a trans woman is rare... there is no risk of trans women taking over women's sports...

Except we are seeing increasing examples of that very thing.

If the transition offers an insurmountable competitive advantage in strength and speed, they will have to address it sooner or later.

 

[Dali]

This person was a competitive male lifter and then transitioned mid 30s. Now at 39 they are breaking records in female competitions. One of the articles I read quoted a weightlifter as saying something along the lines of you want to feel like you are competing on a level playing field. I can see how this may not be the feeling for some considering the circumstances. The ioc rules state the testosterone levels must be 10nmol/l for mtf athletes. I don't know what the average female athlete's testosterone level is so maybe this is a good number but the average level for females in general is 3.3nmol/l (which varies based on age but that's what averages are about).

Someone said cis peak athletes have the same advantage which I believe the comparison isn't apt at all. Mentally if bolt beat me I would not attribute it to anything but him being the superior athlete. If I compete in a gender specific sport and the other sex has an inherit advantage then I wouldn't be able completely write that off as an influencing factor in their victory.

 

[Ketkat]

The issue here is really tough, because if you are trans, then you are stuck with the body of the wrong gender.

However in physical sports, you don't really have a choice. No amount of surgery can change you into a woman or a man. I know there are study's that say there is no difference after long term use of hormonal medication, but....

For those don't know, in the sport mentioned in the example, world records are set in a differences of single kgs. It is very rare to see people break the record by more than one kg.

This was broken in the 10+ kg bracket. As far as I am concerned that is an unfair advantage that the body builder had.

There is no easy answer in this case and I feel no matter what decisions are made, people are still going to be hurt. Really it's up to science to one day find a third option here. Head transplants are a thing, maybe body swaps could someday happen.

So you say there are studies and policies that say its perfectly okay for this person to be competing in the woman's division, but you have a problem with it because she won?

There's also a LOT of people in this thread who have no idea how HRT works, but like to presume that they do.

 

[TTG]

So let me get this straight her finishing with what would be 8th at Rio doesn't prove that what research and the IOC rules say is true, that extended Hormone replacement therapy over several years (which in this case is somewhere closer to 10 years than 2 years) negates a lot of the advantages trans women have before HRT, but that instead that her would be 8th place at Rio still proves that she shouldn't be allowed to compete because clearly she just didn't try hard enough or something?

Did my original analogy not land, or is this just how things go with you? Now let's come up with another one, but this time about you arguing strength sports. You're the conspiracy guy talking about melting steel beams, except this is a much more obvious point, albeit in a relatively niche subject.

 

[Izuna]

ITT: People who don't realize the muscular and skeletal structures that give men significant advantages in terms of physical strength are in place long before puberty, and are not changed by HRT.

This is a great example of being pro rights of any group until it is negatively and unfairly hurting another group.

I do not look forward to the day that China/Russia does something super shady in the Olympics and every trans piece of news for 5 years gets tied to it, ugh.

There's a lot in this post.

China/Russia are two cultures that would never curate this.

 

[nightside]

But that's still a highly problematic prospect. What about a woman who simply has naturally elevated levels? Would they need to undergo hormone therapy to compete with the sex they were both born and identify as?

Poor Caster Semenya took a huge huge huge amount of shit and harassment and discrimination from her colleagues for that. She had to go through hormonal therapy to keep testosterone down so she could compete in the category she had all the right to do since she's born female.
The amount of bullshit she had to endure was beyond ridiculous.
And other naturally born female athletes with high levels of testosterone went through the same shit.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Another possibility honestly could be to have categories not based on "sex" but on body mass composition and weights, with the "free" category at the top which would be basically what is now "male" sports.

 

[Ketkat]

Did my original analogy not land, or is this just how things go with you? Now let's come up with another one, but this time about you arguing strength sports. You're the conspiracy guy talking about melting steel beams, except this is a much more obvious point, albeit in a relatively niche subject.

Except studies disagree with you. YOU are the conspiracy nut in this analogy.

 

[Easy_D]

No, transwomen are women (to me). Being a woman but not being able to partecipate in the Olympics women division don't make you any less so. However, by democracy, it stand to all of them to find a "solution" together and not to men, which i guess the majority of posters in here are, including me.

I'm sorry, I completely misread your post.

 

[TTG]

Except studies disagree with you. YOU are the conspiracy nut in this analogy.

Go ahead and link me to all these studies about transgender women weightlifters.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

So you say there are studies and policies that say its perfectly okay for this person to be competing in the woman's division, but you have a problem with it because she won?

There's also a LOT of people in this thread who have no idea how HRT works, but like to presume that they do.

I doubt those studies. I don't think there is yet a large enough test case in Professional Sport to say there is no difference. I have no problem that she won. The rules say that she could compete and I am happy for her.

I do still think this was an unfair advantage however and until a larger test case comes out proving there is no advantage, I will always feel more for the people who lost

I don't presume to know how HRT works, but I do keep a tab on sports and athletics. Changing the world record the way she did, is like doing the 100 meter in 7 seconds.

 

[AppleSeason]

I don't think there's an advantage / unfairness, unless profesional weigh lifting requires something more than muscle strength,

If the hormone levels are within female values, the treatment has been going on for several, and if we were to add the bonus of SRS / orchiectomy to put testosterone in almost zero / just adrenal, there would not be advantage at all.


And I'm trans. After 4 years on it and reassignment surgery, what I can lift at the gym is much less than before starting transition. I have less T than a cis woman, I can't build muscle that fast, my metabolism is slower and other women of my age are stronger than me without being bodybuilders. I have the same height as most cis women and I have never been bulky or had a big ribcage / whatever. The only advantage I have ever had was standing to pee in a dirty bar bathroom on a friday night.

 

[necrosis]

the transphobia in this thread is fucking gross

 

[pastrami]

I doubt those studies. I don't think there is yet a large enough test case in Professional Sport to say there is no difference. I have no problem that she won. The rules say that she could compete and I am happy for her.

I do still think this was an unfair advantage however and until a larger test case comes out proving there is no advantage, I will always feel more for the people who lost

I don't presume to know how HRT works, but I do keep a tab on sports and athletics. Changing the world record the way she did, is like doing the 100 meter in 7 seconds.

Uh, she's still 80kg away from the world record (348kg), and 65kg away from the Olympic record (333kg).

 

[KarneeKarnay]

the transphobia in this thread is fucking gross

Please share some examples?

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Uh, she's still 80kg away from the world record, and 65kg away from the Olympic record.

Good point. Sorry I meant the Australian record. Good catch.

 

[Ketkat]

I doubt those studies. I don't think there is yet a large enough test case in Professional Sport to say there is no difference. I have no problem that she won. The rules say that she could compete and I am happy for her.

I do still think this was an unfair advantage however and until a larger test case comes out proving there is no advantage, I will always feel more for the people who lost

I don't presume to know how HRT works, but I do keep a tab on sports and athletics. Changing the world record the way she did, is like doing the 100 meter in 7 seconds.

So you don't know how HRT works, but you for some unknown reason, just feel like you have to doubt these scientfic studies.

You just have this "gut feeling" that something is off here. Yet you have to ask where transphobia is in this thread?

 

[AppleSeason]

Please share some examples?

No amount of surgery can change you into a woman or a man.

And that's transphobia. And one of the few times I add somebody to the ignore list.

 

[Coriolanus]

I suppose you could do away with sex-based classification altogether and treat hormone levels like weight classes but that would be really, really weird. And wouldn't address the other supposed "issues" people are arguing about, like skeletal structure, so many of the same folks would still be throwing fits. And really, there actually are far more differences than just hormones anyway.

I've been waiting for that to happen for quite a while. Certainly is a better measure than "wots their sex? ok, off they go to compete with people that might have up to 3 times more testosterone than them."

Weight (if it applies)+hormone level, with blood samples taken every other day up to, say, two weeks to a month before the test, would be ideal. Don't know of any esters that have a half-life much longer than that, but could be wrong.

Ain't no getting around the skeletal structure issue without blocking trans people from competing, so that's obviously a no go.

Except we are seeing increasing examples of that very thing.

Obviously. Is like pitbull attacks vs other dog breeds, as far as news are concerned. One is news, the other isn't. Thus one gets reported while the others dont, and people get the impression that pitbulls are particularly violent, which is then further reinforced by confirmation bias, even though they really aren't.

Don't let your confirmation bias trip you up, mate.

 

[Ratrat]

And that's transphobia. And one of the few times I add somebody to the ignore list.

Thats right though. You don't need surgery. She is a woman regardless of physical transitioning.
You don't change, you just are.
edit: but thats probably not what he meant.

 

[YourMaster]

The reality of that is that there would basically be no women in sports. Women don't compete in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS, or MLB not because there are rules against it, but because no one even close to being athletic enough.

That's not to say that athletic women aren't more athletic than most men. But there's like a 5% gap between the best and there are always enough men to push out even the best women.

Sure there will, most people play sports without ever becoming a top player. That there are no women at the top is just as relevant as there being no short people at the top. It's an insult to women to treat female-only leagues as 'serious' events. Either compete and allow the best people to participate, or have fun leagues in whatever category you want that don't matter beyond the fun of participating.

 

[mclem]

The solution lies somewhere between removing all divisions and adding more to the already existing ones.

At that point you're getting something structurally similar to the Paralympics and how it separates out various different levels of disability - but then, paralympians are generally able to participate in the main Olympics if they can do so in an unaided manner - and, for that matter, this discussion strikes me as not unlike the comments that Pistorius may have had an unfair advantage when he competed in the main Olympics due to the nature of the blades he ran with.

 

[TTG]

I've been waiting for that to happen for quite a while. Certainly is a better measure than "wots their sex? ok, off they go to compete with people that might have up to 3 times more testosterone than them."

Weight (if it applies)+hormone level, with blood samples taken every other day up to, say, two weeks to a month before the test, would be ideal. Don't know of any esters that have a half-life much longer than that, but could be wrong.

Ain't no getting around the skeletal structure issue without blocking trans people from competing, so that's obviously a no go.

Current hormone levels, at the time of competition, are not a sufficient or even decent indicator of how boosted an athlete's performance is. This is before we even get to legitimacy of drug testing at the international level. Most athletes cycle off before a major competition to pass a test, they're still in another league versus someone who has stayed off everything year round.

All of this is besides the point. Again, this makes about as much sense as showing up to Honda Civic race in a Corvette. It doesn't matter that it would "only" be the 8th fastest Civic in the world, it doesn't matter if the Corvette is on 89 octane fuel, it doesn't matter if the Corvette is a great person who has overcome struggles and worked hard.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

And that's transphobia. And one of the few times I add somebody to the ignore list.

I don't appreciate being taken out of context and if you honestly believe a difference of opinion is trasnphobic I would appreciate you report this to the mods. For those wondering my original post is below.

However in physical sports, you don't really have a choice. No amount of surgery can change you into a woman or a man.

So you don't know how HRT works, but you for some unknown reason, just feel like you have to doubt these scientfic studies.

You just have this "gut feeling" that something is off here. Yet you have to ask where transphobia is in this thread?

I'm sorry, so from an athletic/sport point of view, is completely unwarranted in a thread about transgender people in sport?

I have only seen one study and this was about runners, not body builders.

See Here.

 

[michaelius]

The reality is a peak athlete who is also a trans woman is rare... there is no risk of trans women taking over women's sports...

Wait till one of countries decide they want to win as many medals as possible on Olympics and start nation wide program of breading trans athletes.

East Germany was really close to this years ago.

 

[Ketkat]

Current hormone levels, at the time of competition, are not a sufficient or even decent indicator of how boosted an athlete's performance is. This is before we even get to legitimacy of drug testing at the international level. Most athletes cycle off before a major competition to pass a test, they're still in another league versus someone who has stayed off everything year round.

All of this is besides the point. Again, this makes about as much sense as showing up to Honda Civic race in a Corvette. It doesn't matter that it would "only" be the 8th fastest Civic in the world, it doesn't matter if the Corvette is on 89 octane fuel, it doesn't matter if the Corvette is a great person who has overcome struggles and worked hard.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

This has some info summed up from the American Board of Emergency Healthcare, so let me give you some highlights.

Transgender girls who medically transition at an early age do not go through a male puberty, and therefore their participation in athletics as girls does not raise the same equity concerns that arise when transgender women transition after puberty

Transgender women display a great deal of physical variation, just as there is a great deal of natural variation in physical size and ability among non-transgender women and men. Many people may have a stereotype that all transgender women are unusually tall and have large bones and muscles. But that is not true. A male-to-female transgender woman may be small and slight, even if she is not on hormone blockers or taking estrogen. It is important not to overgeneralize. The assumption that all male-bodied people are taller, stronger, and more highly skilled in a sport than all female-bodied people is not accurate.

It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence

I'm sorry, so from an athletic/sport point of view, is completely unwarranted in a thread about transgender people in sport?

I have only seen one study and this was about runners, not body builders.

See Here.

And you disagree with this article because?

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

"She only would have placed 8th in Rio" is the worst argument in this thread. How is 8th not an incredible achievement?

8th best in the world...

Its hard to discuss this without hurting feelings. But it is something that needs to be discussed and regulated sooner rather than later, for all parties involved.

If we take her stats and records, prior to transitioning, would she have placed 8th in the men's division in Rio? I think that's where the disconnect is.

When you factor that in, she would have placed higher in Rio due to being trans and not competing against men.

And that seems massively unfair to the women in my opinion.