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MtF lifter wins international women’s competition, raises concerns on Olympics policy

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Majora

Member
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I never said to give steroids to all. I am one of the few people in this thread saying SPORTS IS NOT FAIR TO EVERYONE because it is basicaly genetic lottery.

Well then just have females compete directly with males and be done with it. It's a genetic lottery whether you're born a man or a woman after all. If you were born a woman then too bad, the peak men will always outperform peak women in sporting events. But it's a lottery so boo hoo, too bad.

Except that isn't how it works. We divide between men and woman so that both sexes have a fair shot at competing and winning. In some sports, such as boxing, we then subdivide even further into different weight classes so that technical ability can be rewarded whether you are naturally small or large.

Yes, sports is very heavily based upon genetics as well as on training and such. It's the very nature of physical activity. Some people are naturally more adept or have slightly better genes for something. But we still divide by gender so that, broadly, the field is competitive. So that humans with high testosterone levels, and all the physical advantages that brings, are not competing directly with those with low testosterone levels.

The problem is when you introduce people who went through puberty with testosterone, and maybe spent years training with high levels of testosterone, and then have them compete with other people who didn't. That's a very big grey area, and the fact that their testosterone levels at the point of taking part are broadly similar to the other competitors does not change the fact that years of living like a man will have provided that individual with advantages that do not go away.

If a male goes through puberty and develops a broad skeletal build, that does not simply disappear when transitioning. And even if some of the musculature is lost when transitioning, the broadness and general 'masculinity' of their skeletal build will still be largely retained, which is surely an advantage in a weight lifting competition.

Muscle memory is also a very real phenomenon. Men find it much easier to gain large amounts of muscle than women due to testosterone production. If you lose that muscle, it is easier to get it back then if you are starting from scratch because of muscle memory. Someone who lives and trains as a man for years is therefore able to accumulate muscle memory much easier, regardless of the fact that their testosterone levels will be comparable to other competitors when competing.

Handwaving this away as part of the genetic lottery is simply disingenuous. Those transitioning had years of opportunity to accumulate muscle memory and develop a skeletal frame that was basically impossible for their competitors. It goes beyond someone of the same sex having slightly better genes or slightly higher hormone levels and lands squarely in the realm of a flat out unfair unadvantage from an extremely different starting position. And I think that starting position is absolutely key to the argument about this, unfortunately.

This is absolutely not an attack on transgendered people, it's a cold, logical look at the principle of a level field within the sporting event. Nor am I saying that there will be a flood of transgendered people dominating sporting events. But there doesn't have to be a flood for it to be a topic worth discussing and debating for the benefit of everyone involved in a particular competition.
 

YourMaster

Member
I don't think the argument that "sports is not fair to everyone" works. You could use this argument to justify abolishing separate male and female categories entirety, effectively barring all women from competing (because sports just isn't fair...) The whole point is that, if we can easily categorize people in ways that account for differences in ability, to allow fair competition...we do.

We can and should, and in no way or form does this bar women from competing. Everybody can play and compete, it's just that not everybody will manage to compete for the very top. But this isn't the case anyway when you have a 'female only' or '50+' or '12-' competition anyway, that is, or should be, a novelty league, just competing for fun.
When competing for the top you want to know the best, not 'the fastest runner who also climbed mount Everest', 'the highest jumper who's been to space', 'the best tennis player with a vagina' or 'the best basketball team with players with a testosterone level below 200'. Those don't count. Normal equal playing field, everybody competes, irrespective of genetics, upbringing, health, sex, gender, skin color or body shape.
And indeed, also do away with weight-classes in martial arts.

Having special leagues like a 'trans league', 'negro league' or 'female league' is an insult to that group, declaring them unfit to play along with 'us regular humans'.
 
This thread never goes well lmao...



And yet HRT is a demonstrated treatment for gender dysphoria, which I can tell you is a lot more life-threatening than what you describe. The language you use too sounds like old-fashioned scaremongering. "Pumping kids with hormones"

I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying don't use it on kids before we know the full effect they have on them.

I don't know how not using HRT is any more threatening than cancer, but I guess you didn't read or understand my sources.
 
I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying don't use it on kids before we know the full effect they have on them.

I don't know how not using HRT is any more threatening than cancer, but I guess you didn't read or understand my sources.

Because gender dysphoria - which can be made significantly worse by not treating it early - often leads to self-harm and exacerbation of mental anguish brought on by abuse and mistreatment. HRT is, according to the American Psychiatric Association, an effective tool to treat gender dysphoria. That you don't know this very basic bit of knowledge about gender dysphoria might indicate that you may be ill-equipped to participate in this discussion.
 

Draxal

Member
We can and should, and in no way or form does this bar women from competing. Everybody can play and compete, it's just that not everybody will manage to compete for the very top. But this isn't the case anyway when you have a 'female only' or '50+' or '12-' competition anyway, that is, or should be, a novelty league, just competing for fun.
When competing for the top you want to know the best, not 'the fastest runner who also climbed mount Everest', 'the highest jumper who's been to space', 'the best tennis player with a vagina' or 'the best basketball team with players with a testosterone level below 200'. Those don't count. Normal equal playing field, everybody competes, irrespective of genetics, upbringing, health, sex, gender, skin color or body shape.
And indeed, also do away with weight-classes in martial arts.

Having special leagues like a 'trans league', 'negro league' or 'female league' is an insult to that group, declaring them unfit to play along with 'us regular humans'.

Nah, female participation in sports is low now, and was even lower before Title IX was introduced in the States (and from my cursory review of international sports is that America is the leader in female participation rate but probably only due to Title IX).

Female sports are exclusionary to be inclusive as odd at it seems.
 
Because gender dysphoria - which can be made significantly worse by not treating it early - often leads to self-harm and exacerbation of mental anguish brought on by abuse and mistreatment. HRT is, according to the American Psychiatric Association, an effective tool to treat gender dysphoria. That you don't know this very basic bit of knowledge about gender dysphoria might indicate that you may be ill-equipped to participate in this discussion.

I perfectly know that. How is that any worse than cancer, which is also life threatening?
 

MrToughPants

Brian Burke punched my mom
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Sorry, the Futurama joke was too easy =P

I never said to give steroids to all. I am one of the few people in this thread saying SPORTS IS NOT FAIR TO EVERYONE because it is basicaly genetic lottery. If people were born with steroid enhancing powers (like Big Foot from UFC, since people love to use examples where people could get hurt) than let them be !

Lol steroids for all would probably be the cheapest and easiest solution for sports. Like Big Foot or others with certain genetic/biological advantages it is a grey area. There is no solution without ostracizing individuals but I understand how some athletes can feel it's unfair.
 

Platy

Member
If gender is a social construct then trans can't exist by definition.

I think more research is needed.

"social construct" does not mean "as made up as fairies and unicorns"

I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying don't use it on kids before we know the full effect they have on them.

I don't know how not using HRT is any more threatening than cancer, but I guess you didn't read or understand my sources.

Ideally, HRT would have no problem to the person since it is no different than actual cis puberty. The problem is that we have no research to develop ACTUAL medicine proper for HRT, since trans people is not exactly a good marketing group =P
There are literally no mention of trans people in the paper that comes with the hormones I take.
They mention testing in animals, but don't mention trans people.

Till we have proper HRT medicine... shitty HRT medicine is better than nothing.

Lol steroids for all would probably be the cheapest and easiest solution for sports. Like Big Foot or others with certain genetic/biological advantages it is a grey area. There is no solution without ostracizing individuals but I understand how some athletes can feel it's unfair.

It is not a grey area ... people accept them and that is it.
Why trans people must be different ?
Oh wait it is not ! All serious commites and stuff already accept trans people.
 

Platy

Member
This would be ideal. Until then, maybe like four divisions as someone said in the first page?

You mean separate but equal style of male, female, trans and colored ?

I mean there are some sports where black people have a HUGE genetic advantage...
 
You mean separate but equal style of male, female, trans and colored ?

I mean there are some sports where black people have a HUGE genetic advantage...

Are you fucking kidding me with this shit?

This is why people can't stand discussing topics with some liberals (which I proudly count myself as). A completely innocent, non-bigoted comment is turned into transphobic and racist without batting a fucking eye.

If you want to go around throwing out that kind of accusation, you should have some heavy duty evidence to back that up. That type of smear is uncalled for and absolutely disgusting. Grow up.
 

Platy

Member
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit?

This is why people can't stand discussing topics with some liberals (which I proudly count myself as). A completely innocent, non-bigoted comment is turned into transphobic and racist without batting a fucking eye.

If you want to go around throwing out that kind of accusation, you should have some heavy duty evidence to back that up. That type of smear is uncalled for and absolutely disgusting. Grow up.

Yes, I am fucking kidding with you.

The first page has people asking for separate but equal stuff of cis men, cis woman, trans woman and trans men ... and every other part of the thread is about how trans woman have an unfair genetic advantage that will make them "dominate the sport" even if the examples of actual trans women winning are incredibly rare.

GUESS WHO dominates long distance runnings because of unfair genetic advantage ?
Kenyans !
 

Jenov

Member
I ask again if someone knows the records she had as a man.

IF an average male athlete became an elite female athlete it's more than evident that it's not fair competition.

This is a reasonable conclusion, but a lot of people keep ignoring it...

Ultimately, if woman trans athletes start having over representation in records/ranks then the rules will need to have a second look as something is amiss. Personally I feel that if a trans woman transitioned many years after puberty then it's already an inherent advantage for them over natural born females. But perhaps a case could be made for pre-puberty transitions being able to compete fairly though?
 

Raonak

Banned
The mens women division split is a really outdated concept in the new world of gender fluidity.

Im not sure what the answer is, but there is gonna be an issue of mtf athletes still having some of the physical advantages of spending some of their life growing up as a male. Stuff like hand sizes dont just go away with hormone replacement.

Allowing cis women to go against trans women introduces more problems than it fixes, as the whole reason it exists is because males are generally physically stronger.

I think it would make more sense for the mens division to become open to all genders, an anything goes sorta division.
 
Yes, I am fucking kidding with you.

The first page has people asking for separate but equal stuff of cis men, cis woman, trans woman and trans men ... and every other part of the thread is about how trans woman have an unfair genetic advantage that will make them "dominate the sport" even if the examples of actual trans women winning are incredibly rare.

GUESS WHO dominates long distance runnings because of unfair genetic advantage ?

Your claim that examples of trans women dominating sports may or may not be true (I haven't read every study cited in this thread), but perhaps that's because trans people make up a very small portion of the population as it is.

Add to that the fact that being born XX or XY gives very little advantage to either in sports such as golf or tennis, and I can see why dominance doesn't always take place.

But in a sport that relies on musculature and endurance, someone born XY (especially if they transitioned after puberty) is likely going to have an unfair advantage.

This isn't transphobia. Things are what they are. And if genetics gives the average XY an advantage over the average XX, transitioning will not change that.

I'm all for saying that the athlete in question deserves to compete. But should we just ignore the fact that her sex-based genetics gives her an advantage and tell the other women who hold no such advantage to fuck off?

A separate division may not sound ideal, but to me it seems more fair to all involved until they eliminate gender classes and go by mass or some other classification.
 

Platy

Member
And I am saying that being born in Kenya gives you an unfair advantage in running and that creating a new category for kenyans is insane

Gender is a social construct, Sex is a biological category.

You say "biological category" like if you are talking about math.
Have you seen what biology defines as species ?

Who choose to say that who has the biggest gamete is the female and who has the smaller one is male was a human based on social forces of it's time.

The size of the gamete does not change anything relate to what affects sports
 

Jenov

Member
Men generally have an advantage within weight classes as well. I'm not sure what you are referring to by body type beyond size.

Yeah, even sports pitting male and females of equal size and weight will have the men dominating it... sexual dimorphism in humans isn't just weight/size, there's a litany of physical differences and advantages.
 
And I am saying that being born in Kenya gives you an unfair advantage in running and that creating a new category for kenyans is insane



You say "biological category" like if you are talking about math.

Who choose to say that who has the biggest gamete is the female and who has the smaller one is male was a human based on social forces of it's time.

The size of the gamete does not change anything relate to what affects sports

Show me the study that proves Kenyans have a biological advantage to those born elsewhere, please.

Otherwise you're deflecting and weakening your own argument.
 

norm9

Member
Now that I've thought about it for a bit, I say let her compete. If she wins, then the other competitors are just not as good and should train harder.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
And I am saying that being born in Kenya gives you an unfair advantage in running and that creating a new category for kenyans is insane



You say "biological category" like if you are talking about math.

Who choose to say that who has the biggest gamete is the female and who has the smaller one is male was a human based on social forces of it's time.

The size of the gamete does not change anything relate to what affects sports

The label attached doesn't matter. They still are two very distinct biological variations. It's not math, it's biology.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say with this post.
 

Platy

Member
Show me the study that proves Kenyans have a biological advantage to those born elsewhere, please.

Otherwise you're deflecting and weakening your own argument.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/

The study found that boys on the high school track team in Iten, Kenya, consistently outperformed the professional Swedish runners. The researchers estimated that the average Kalenjin could outrun 90% of the global population, and that at least 500 amateur high school students in Iten alone could defeat Sweden's greatest professional runner at the 2,000-meter.

This article has more about kenyans owning races than was ever posted here saying trans women have actual advantage in sports

And what we do about this ?
we DEAL WITH IT because high level sports is actually GENETIC LOTTERY
 

shandy706

Member
Now that I've thought about it for a bit, I say let her compete. If she wins, then the other competitors are just not as good and should train harder.

What if it's physically impossible for the other women to reach the muscle mass and lifting capability of her despite a successful transition?



Tough thing to figure out. Sometimes things literally can not be made fair no matter how hard we might would try. Not everything can be equal opportunity. I don't however think a trans person should be shunned from sports. They should get to aspire to things like any other athlete. This type of thing is starting to come to light, and I have no idea how to make it work out fairly for all parties.

Edit* (unless you have separate sports for those who make the transition, but then you'd need lots of athletes)
 
Your claim that examples of trans women dominating sports may or may not be true (I haven't read every study cited in this thread), but perhaps that's because trans people make up a very small portion of the population as it is.

Add to that the fact that being born XX or XY gives very little advantage to either in sports such as golf or tennis, and I can see why dominance doesn't always take place

The gap between men and women is just as big in golf and tennis

Top female tennis players practice with and lose to men ranked 600+ in the world. Chris Evert, one of the greatest of all time, used to have very tough practice matches and lose more often than not against her brother who had been a good NCAA player but never a pro.
 
And I am saying that being born in Kenya gives you an unfair advantage in running and that creating a new category for kenyans is insane



You say "biological category" like if you are talking about math.
Have you seen what biology defines as species ?

Who choose to say that who has the biggest gamete is the female and who has the smaller one is male was a human based on social forces of it's time.

The size of the gamete does not change anything relate to what affects sports

You are going full on reductio ad absurdum here, we can ignore the nominal sign sex if would like, but a person grabbing is penis to pee isn't predicated on a society, you want to talk about the impossibility of an objective reality that's great, but we are not talking about the same ballpark as Gender or Money .
 

norm9

Member
What if it's physically impossible for the other women to reach the muscle mass and lifting capability of her despite a successful transition?

We either see Trans women as women or we don't. If we do, then they have to be able to compete, regardless of the outcome. The other competitors are just gonna have to suck it up in the name of striving for equality and progress.
 

Jenov

Member
There must be some other solution than: "If you're born with a vagina, tough shit, you lost the GENETIC LOTTERY."

Seriously, some of these comments come across as so callous and almost anti-women

We either see Trans women as women or we don't. If we do, then they have to be able to compete, regardless of the outcome. The other competitors are just gonna have to suck it up in the name of striving for equality and progress.

SUCK IT UP, GIRLS! You're not being progressive by complaining about disadvantages!
 

Platy

Member
There must be some other solution than: "If you're born with a vagina, tough shit, you lost the GENETIC LOTTERY."

Besides the fact that the entire world of sports is "tough shit, you lost the genetic lottery", the amount of trans people that exist is minimal and the amount of trans people within those minimal numbers that care about sport is even smaller.

Like I said before, there was NOT EVEN A SINGLE TRANS WOMAN in the 2016 Olympics.
People are making it a bigger problem than can ever be.

There were more cases of people with random genetic lottery like higher blood cells, bigger tendons and whatever phelps has than trans woman winning in the olympics.
...because the only Trans Woman who actualy won the olympics that I know is Caitlyn Jenner =P

Seriously, some of these comments come across as so callous and almost anti-women!

Only if you think being a woman is define by having a vagina
 

Dhx

Member
We either see Trans women as women or we don't. If we do, then they have to be able to compete, regardless of the outcome. The other competitors are just gonna have to suck it up in the name of striving for equality and progress.

That's not how any of this works. We as a society can accept transgendered women as women and at the same time not ignore the biological differences that may present challenges in sports.
 
There are a lot of people in here who are one step away from saying tranwomen aren't real women. Just let it out, y'all. Lets be real, you aren't going to get banned. Half of you are just telling nonsense and ignoring the actual studies people are citing because it doesn't fit into your transphobic narrative.
 

Ewo

Member
I've been thinking about this for a while and I've come to a conclusion:
I am really glad it's not up to me to figure out a solution.
 

Dhx

Member
There are a lot of people in here who are one step away from saying tranwomen aren't real women. Just let it out, y'all. Lets be real, you aren't going to get banned. Half of you are just telling nonsense and ignoring the actual studies people are citing because it doesn't fit into your transphobic narrative.

Who are you talking to? You can use the quote function to point these posters out and engage them.
 
Yes, I am fucking kidding with you.

The first page has people asking for separate but equal stuff of cis men, cis woman, trans woman and trans men ... and every other part of the thread is about how trans woman have an unfair genetic advantage that will make them "dominate the sport" even if the examples of actual trans women winning are incredibly rare.

GUESS WHO dominates long distance runnings because of unfair genetic advantage ?
Kenyans !
Can you back your shit up? You say it's incredibly rare, but isn't that because trans people are incredible rare anyway? Please elaborate on the kenyan bs tho
 
The mens women division split is a really outdated concept in the new world of gender fluidity.

Im not sure what the answer is, but there is gonna be an issue of mtf athletes still having some of the physical advantages of spending some of their life growing up as a male. Stuff like hand sizes dont just go away with hormone replacement.

Allowing cis women to go against trans women introduces more problems than it fixes, as the whole reason it exists is because males are generally physically stronger.

I think it would make more sense for the mens division to become open to all genders, an anything goes sorta division.

Making the men's division open to all genders creates.......... a men's division.
 
Yeah, even sports pitting male and females of equal size and weight will have the men dominating it... sexual dimorphism in humans isn't just weight/size, there's a litany of physical differences and advantages.

Yeah. Even if you went by body composition and put a jacked, ripped woman like 5'8", 175lb Cris "Cyborg" Santos against a male athlete of the same size and similar muscle/fat composition, the man would destroy her.
 
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