We already have it : 2 years in regular testosterone levels
The case in the OP she has been transition for 6 years
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MtF lifter wins international womens competition, raises concerns on Olympics policy
- Thread starter chillybright
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We already have it : 2 years in regular testosterone levels
The case in the OP she has been transition for 6 years
excelsiorlef
Member
It's actually changed to 1 I believe if I read the new rules... but with all the levels rules in place
Clockwork
Member
Why the loaded question?
Gender dysphoria is a mental attribute concerning gender whereas our discussion is related to the physical attributes and advantages inherent to sex.
The transition processes (including HRT) is a means to address that difference to more closely match said persons gender identity. This is still an approximation and you will never achieve a 1 to 1 parity between a cis and transexual person.
If being able to compete on an even playing field is questionable for the above situation why does the above need to be asked?
No, that person should not be allowed to compete.
That makes sense. The study I was just posting said muscle was done after 1 year.
WhiskeyKnight
Member
At least we can all agree that when it comes to sports, gender isn't just a social construct.
Ever read or heard about the practice of impregnating athletes and then having an abortion to improve physical ability?
People, sports federations and countries will go to the worst lengths if it means success.
I am not sure if you didn't understood gender, social construct or sports
Who said gender is a social construct?
TenCentCoast
Banned
Gender and sex are different things.
And they are both social constructs. Like sports, money, living in houses and brushing our teeth.
And I have NO IDEA what this has to do with any of this
That's great that you don't care. I don't care your your disingenuous response. I suppose this is where I tell you to deal with it. The petulant, dismissive tone of your posts is unwarranted.
Record for age 35-39 women: 220.0kg, set 23-Jul-2005 at the World Masters Games
Record for age 40-44 women: 178.0kg, set 11-Oct-2009 at the World Masters Games
Hubbard at age 39: 268kg
Source
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Has there ever been a case of a FtM transgender person winning a title like this? I'm just curious.
Disagree completely, but there will be another time for this I won't derail the thread.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Oh so there are guidelines and if she followed them, then it's a-ok in my book
I was more talking on a Universal transitioning scale
That should quiet the other side down
Thanks for info and link, it should become more open and knowledgeable to everyone
I think Transgender people will have to take their lumps from bigots, assholes, scared of the unknown and hope time and knowledge enters society quicker than gay rights took
Trans people just get spotlighted harder because the baggage of how it's redefining themselves makes others uncomfortable
Hoping for the best
I was more talking on a Universal transitioning scale
That should quiet the other side down
Thanks for info and link, it should become more open and knowledgeable to everyone
I think Transgender people will have to take their lumps from bigots, assholes, scared of the unknown and hope time and knowledge enters society quicker than gay rights took
Trans people just get spotlighted harder because the baggage of how it's redefining themselves makes others uncomfortable
Hoping for the best
OLYMPIC record for women weighting 45 in 1993 : 180.0 kg
Current world record : 217 kg
I think cis women from today should not be allowed to compete because they have an unfair advantage to women 20 years ago
A small example to help you understand : intersex people and cromossome variations. When they belong to male sex and when they belong to female sex. Where do you draw the line is socially constructed
ScatheZombie
Member
Conclusion isn't data.
The data doesn't necessarily support their conclusion. I pointed this out about 3 pages ago now. Their conclusions are that despite the data showing a clear advantage, it's still smaller than the differences between M and F. And the differences between M and M-F are larger than the differences between F and M-F.
Therefore, because they have a smaller advantages versus F than their disadvantage versus M, they should be placed into the F competition.
There's absolute nothing to debate about the data. M-F have an advantage, across mean, SD, and CI, against F. Conversely, M have an advantage against M-F as well.
So the question becomes whether we force M-F to participate against M, who they have a distinct disadvantage against, allow them to compete against F, who they have a distinct advantage against, or some other solution.
You were arguing that there's no difference between M-F and F. And that's not what the research says, quite the opposite actually. The conclusion of the research is not that there is no difference between the two - but that in a binary system of M and F competitions, a M-F competitor should be placed into the F category because that's where they have the smallest advantage/disadvantage against the rest of the field.
But there's still a measurable advantage.
Let me say it has a ridiculous advantage. So does producing more blood cells or having grow hormone above average. Hell, even cis women who had insane testosterone levels on puberty would have the exact same advantage.
WHY would you do anything ?
People are born this way and if they fit requirements of gender, weight and testosterone there is no reason to not let the person compete.
It is simple impossible to ask everyone's entire medical history since puberty, specialy on the olympics where we have people who were living in places without water in puberty, let alone medical history
You don't need to be condescending with every post you make. And yes I know, I studied evolutionary biology for my undergraduate degree. I know what your arguments will be and I don't want to get in a never-ending discussion right now. So let's just agree to disagree.
We never even had a case of a trans woman winning a title like this =P
hydrophilic attack
Member
?
I'm not sure what you mean with this comment. What I was saying was that with a small sample size like in study, you can still probably draw general conclusions by comparing the upper quartile/quintile, where data showed a big difference. But any comparison of the biggest outlier in each group is not really useful for drawing general conclusions
ScatheZombie is making the points I'm trying to make much more clearly than I am
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Something similar I mean. Like a highschool title, or any notable competition.
I think something similar. If we start seeing a disproportionate amount of trans women winning titles or setting records, then we need to reconsider whether they have an unfair advantage that requires rethinking how we go forward with these competitions. I'd prefer there not to be a complete ban though. I'd hope for some other option to appear, although I don't know what it would be.
ScatheZombie
Member
It'd be cool if you guys could do something other than sticking your fingers in your ears while shouting "Not Uh!" when people point out the flaws in your arguments, the holes in your data, or the realities of your cited research.
psychowave
Member
I'm saying we should do more research before pumping kids with hormones, as most studies show conflicting results.
Some reading on the subject, though of course there is a lot more.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25721104/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28257955/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26830952/
Clockwork
Member
The problem is that historically speaking both sex and gender in terms of segregating competition for sports have been largely treated as the same thing, i.e. a genetically born male (sex) would also share a male gender identity so very little attention was paid to disseminating the defferences between the two.
So knowing the genetic advantages of males vs females(sex) it was rather simple to say that males compete against males and females compete against females.
Now that gender identity has to be taken into account it becomes much more complex as although a male (sex) might identify as female (gender) they still have the inherent physical advantages of being male (sex) from a pre-transition standpoint and also quite possibly (and I believe this to be the case) from a post transition standpoint.
Things are much more complex than having gone through HRT or measurements of testosterone levels.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
So all of those other competitors should just accept this situation because one competitor had a hard and unfair life?
Not it is not. People in this thread are making it way more complicate than it should.
If you have the gender, the weight and the testosterone levels for 2 years you can compete.
If you still have some advantage after that than it is life. Lots of people have advantages after that, not just trans people.
ScatheZombie
Member
The only genetic advantage we separate competitors based on is biological sex.
Arguments about 'other advantages' are rather moot in that context, I think.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Fair enough. In this particular instance, it sounds like all of the established guidelines were followed. I think a lot of people, myself included, are speaking in more general terms.
That is the current text of the rule. Trying to say "this is the rule, deal with it" in a conversation about what the rule should be is not an actual argument. You're trying to defend your position by saying the status quo is correct because it's the status quo.
No, the status quo is correct because it is the best choice.
Even if trans women had insane bonuses ... we have no problem with other insane bonuses !
[edit] I am trans ... I will NEVER defend "because status quo" because the status quo hates me 99% of the time =P[/edit]
[citation needed]
The actual separation is testosterone levels and gender
Otherwise trans people would not be allowed to compete at all and look, she competed just fine !
And trans women are welcome to compete in the olympics ... and guess what, NO TRANS WOMEN CLASSIFIED FOR THE LAST OLYMPICS so the fears of trans women dominating sports are not based on anything
Even if trans women had insane bonuses ... we have no problem with other insane bonuses !
[edit] I am trans ... I will NEVER defend "because status quo" because the status quo hates me 99% of the time =P[/edit]
[citation needed]
The actual separation is testosterone levels and gender
Otherwise trans people would not be allowed to compete at all and look, she competed just fine !
And trans women are welcome to compete in the olympics ... and guess what, NO TRANS WOMEN CLASSIFIED FOR THE LAST OLYMPICS so the fears of trans women dominating sports are not based on anything
ScatheZombie
Member
It was explained earlier in the thread that up until the last few years of competition, gender and biological sex were synonymous with each other. Because the assumption was that they were one in the same. We now know that's inaccurate. Gender has nothing to do with origins of the separation of competition. It's only a factor now, and a debated one at that.
The separator for testosterone levels is derived from biological sex. M-F have lower testosterone levels because of HRT, not gender identity. Their gender identity is the reason for their HRT. Without HRT, a M-F gender identity would not be allowed to compete because they would exceed the testosterone levels due to their original biological sex.
So it's not gender identity that's the separator. It's testosterone levels that are largely affected by biological sex. And even then, that's not necessarily the separator, that's the metric used to determine the separation. The assumption being that high testosterone levels indicate either cheating or biological sex difference.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
One of the complaints about 1-2 year bans for PED use in sports is the lasting effect of exogenous androgen use. During atrophy the muscle cell nuclei don't die during apoptosis, muscle memory. A natural male athlete who builds the proper mass/strength fibers will develop this muscle memory advantage over a female because their test levels are naturally higher. So a female who transitioned (MtF) could pose some advantages when competing against non transitioned females. At the world/olympic level these advantages can be a factor.
Whatever.
If people really think she had an unfair advantage because of bone density or muscle mass and that advantage is not ok because of reasons, than you should be defending the creation of subcategories of bone density or muscle mass.
Treat the advantage as the advantage itself.
It makes no sense to say "this woman has more bone density, therefore we should abolish gender categories". You can have bone density categories within gender. Would bone density be more important than weight ? Or less ? It is important to know whatever it replaces weight or becomes a subcategory.
Not only it makes it turn into a "women are actualy men" but ignore trans people that transitioned before puberty, which is something that will increasingly become more common. And transitioning before puberty destroys any advantage that people saying the women in the op might have, because it is in puberty that bones are affected by hormones.
And using steroids will make the testosterone levels of a cis woman rise ... and yet it is totaly ok to acept women with higher than average testosterone without any type of testosterone blockers.
The problem is the enhancing drug, not the fact that people can be born with this
If people really think she had an unfair advantage because of bone density or muscle mass and that advantage is not ok because of reasons, than you should be defending the creation of subcategories of bone density or muscle mass.
Treat the advantage as the advantage itself.
It makes no sense to say "this woman has more bone density, therefore we should abolish gender categories". You can have bone density categories within gender. Would bone density be more important than weight ? Or less ? It is important to know whatever it replaces weight or becomes a subcategory.
Not only it makes it turn into a "women are actualy men" but ignore trans people that transitioned before puberty, which is something that will increasingly become more common. And transitioning before puberty destroys any advantage that people saying the women in the op might have, because it is in puberty that bones are affected by hormones.
And using steroids will make the testosterone levels of a cis woman rise ... and yet it is totaly ok to acept women with higher than average testosterone without any type of testosterone blockers.
The problem is the enhancing drug, not the fact that people can be born with this
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
So steroids for all is the solution for professional sports? Should we have a steroid league vs natural league?
USADA/WADA have test level guidelines, seems this particular MtF athlete was at the upper limit.
No you don't need steroids to develop nuclei in the muscle... The factor is the MtF athlete having an already developed biological advantage that will be passed on even if their test and muscle mass decreases...
lmao what? so every woman interested in weightlifting is fucked then?
ScatheZombie
Member
Couldn't HRT technically be considered an enhancing drug if it allows you to compete at the top end of a lower (testosterone-wise) bracket?
Sorry, the Futurama joke was too easy =P
I never said to give steroids to all. I am one of the few people in this thread saying SPORTS IS NOT FAIR TO EVERYONE because it is basicaly genetic lottery. If people were born with steroid enhancing powers (like Big Foot from UFC, since people love to use examples where people could get hurt) than let them be !
Does not exist that much trans woman in the world ... let alone interested in weightlifting
How can decreasing your muscle mass be considered an enhancing drug ?
A Link to the Past
Banned
This thread never goes well lmao...
And yet HRT is a demonstrated treatment for gender dysphoria, which I can tell you is a lot more life-threatening than what you describe. The language you use too sounds like old-fashioned scaremongering. "Pumping kids with hormones"
And yet HRT is a demonstrated treatment for gender dysphoria, which I can tell you is a lot more life-threatening than what you describe. The language you use too sounds like old-fashioned scaremongering. "Pumping kids with hormones"
ScatheZombie
Member
Maybe you could read the second half of the sentence you just quoted for the answer...
Ok ... if it is, which would a trans woman have to use to compete ?
Nothing at all ?
Would you rather a trans woman compete without using any HRT ?
I feel like this is only going to get murkier once genetic engineering and designer babies really kicks off.
Do we ban people with artificially modified genes or just say fuck it? What happens when we can make artificial lungs that are far superior to human lungs and you can get a transplant? Do we have a "normal" and "enhanced" olympics?
As for the weightlifter I don't know her full story but I kind of feel like she should step aside... yes you are technically within the rules but come on.
Do we ban people with artificially modified genes or just say fuck it? What happens when we can make artificial lungs that are far superior to human lungs and you can get a transplant? Do we have a "normal" and "enhanced" olympics?
As for the weightlifter I don't know her full story but I kind of feel like she should step aside... yes you are technically within the rules but come on.
Caayn
Member
Sounds unfair to other contesters to be honest. Even with the low amount of transgender people partaking in professional sports, it's enough to skew the top end as that's where every advantage counts.
Maybe the solution would be to introduce a new category in sports for transgender people, similar to how we've got categories for men, women and people with a handicap.
Maybe the solution would be to introduce a new category in sports for transgender people, similar to how we've got categories for men, women and people with a handicap.
Pattycakes
Banned
So you're saying someone would intentionally claim being transgender, go through HRT for 2+ years, and all the other shit just so they could compete in a "lower" testosterone group? That's what we're worried about? This sounds like the same argument with the bathrooms and random people "claiming" transgender to creep on the opposite sex in the bathroom.
I don't think the argument that "sports is not fair to everyone" works. You could use this argument to justify abolishing separate male and female categories entirety, effectively barring all women from competing (because sports just isn't fair...) The whole point is that, if we can easily categorize people in ways that account for differences in ability, to allow fair competition...we do.
ScatheZombie
Member
On the contrary, I think F competitors should be able to use drugs to increase their testosterone levels to just below the competition threshold in the same way that M-F competitors are allowed to use drugs to decrease their testosterone levels to just below the competition threshold.
Because it seems like one side of this equation is allowed to target a specific competition threshold using drugs while the other is far more limited in their means to do so (most of those types of drugs are banned).
This was never even remotely implied in any of my multiple posts in this thread.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Don't you think we'd be having these debates with examples of both MtF and FtM transgender people winning sports titles, to use as evidence? Not necessarily at this level, but at any level?
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