Support NeoGAF

[casiopao]

To me it's related to some pieces of media cheating in showing a character that looks definitely under-aged, but is suddenly made fine due to the characters age being inflated to 18, no matter how dishonest it is. The 1000-year old dragon is a real thing that happens.

But.... in this case, the girl seems mature enough? And they sure don't aged the girl aged like at all.

 

[messiaen]

You certainly can't make a blanket statement that covers that, it will be different every time. and even then, individual consumers of that content will have varying opinions on whether or not it's acceptable. but in general I think that history has shown that the more "problematic" media tends to be the stuff that is most effective at examining the human condition.

now I'm not sure how one would go about making a "valid" experience that involved participating in child abuse, nor would I really like to see someone try. but I also wouldn't want to blanket rule it out.

Of course we have media that can toe or even cross the morally gray-line. However; my argument was really boiling down to, is it morally acceptable to make that kind of media? Not just media that features child rape, but glorifies it. Should that be allowed? Because saying that something is fiction and because of that anything goes, is just wrong. That was the main argument I was making.

I agree with you in that art is a very powerful thing, depicting certain horrors tastefully can change how people feel about an issue. However; I'm sure you're aware it's a two way street. There is media that exists that will enable pedophilic behavior.

 

[stump sock]

She's not underage in the markets they're releasing it on, isn't she?
Might be the reason for avoiding USA release.

In general it's more strict in Japan than in the west. An adult (>20) consorting with a minor (even 18-19) can be illegal. Corruption of a minor I think.

e: this varies from prefecture to prefecture iirc.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

I'm not judging anyone but can we admit that as humans sometimes we feel a degree of embarrassment for the way others behave?

If I see someone walk out of the grocery store with 10 boxes of Twinkies my initial reaction is "if that were me I'd feel embarrassed".

The whole point of the OP is to acknowledge that uncomfortable feeling in response to Summer Lesson and try to explore why that feeling exists at all, and why seeing a grown adult purchasing summer lesson might yield a different reaction than seeing somebody purchasing Killzone.

I think I tried to make it pretty clear in the OP that the potential moral questions raised here are not black and white and that's the very reason I think it warrants discussion.

If it were straight up a game about non-consensual groping of young girls, I'd very much hold the opinion of "that's fucked up, and I think the people who sincerely enjoy that are also kind of fucked up."

Summer Lesson isn't that, but there are arguably very small hints of it. So is it 100% okay? Is it 100% not okay? I don't think the answer is that easy. It deserves more thought than that.

Man I didn't even join in, but this is just...

Ugh.

 

[Jarmel]

But this, this seems close a to a rape sim. "Rape light". Should be the name of the genre tbh

What the fuck. How in the hell is this close to rape?

 

[Dark_castle]

I don't get the point of Summer Lesson, or ecchi games in general. They're not explicit or erotic enough to facilitate masturbation, and they're too fan-servicey to be taken seriously. It's a weird middle ground that I'm not a fan of.

 

[casiopao]

What the fuck. How in the hell is this close to rape?

Projection i guess? Dunno. I mean, calling this dating sim. I can accept as i see this one the same level as Love Plus. But suddenly Rape sim?O_O

Thats one hell of a jump.

I don't get the point of Summer Lesson, or ecchi games in general. They're not explicit or erotic enough to facilitate masturbation, and they're too fan-servicey to be taken seriously. It's a weird middle ground that I'm not a fan of.

Each people with their own taste? Some people like ecchi genre as they are more less bored with straight forward porn? or some just see those fanservice part as an extra while they maybe looking for other experience the game can provide? Not everything should on the extreme lol.

 

[zoukka]

I don't get the point of Summer Lesson, or ecchi games in general. They're not explicit or erotic enough to facilitate masturbation, and they're too fan-servicey to be taken seriously. It's a weird middle ground that I'm not a fan of.

The low age rating gives them more potential coverage and sales I guess.

 

[Hektor]

I don't get the point of Summer Lesson, or ecchi games in general. They're not explicit or erotic enough to facilitate masturbation, and they're too fan-servicey to be taken seriously. It's a weird middle ground that I'm not a fan of.

Some people prefer things that aren't explicit and leave things up to fantasy, that's all there is to it.

 

[Quonny]

It depends what you go into the game to get out of it. I personally don't care if it's a girl, guy, young, old, whatever. I want to see how uncomfortable I get with VR human interaction. Would I feel bad throwing a pencil at the person's face if they had realistic reactions and I made a 'bond' with them? Would I feel happy if my tutoring gave them a good grade? Or would there be that disconnect where like in Mass Effect I don't care and just go full renegade?

But the OP does bring up some interesting points that I feel conflicted about. I honestly don't know where I stand. I like to think that if it's all virtual, then who cares, but part of me wonders how indulging in such things may potentially change behavior or opinions in the real world.

 

[thesonovabeach]

I believe this is the best thread that gave birth to the worst discussion since I follow Gaf.
And that's too bad.

 

[casiopao]

The low age rating gives them more potential coverage and sales I guess.

I agree with that for sure. It is more or less muney.^_^ But, sorry here. I am waiting for the response for this lol.

ummmm..... u lost me here. Really here. I am totally lost on what u wanted to said.

Not defined strictly by age.
Not underage person.
But more on physical appearances..... so if i like a mature woman which had petite build so....i am a pedo?O_O

I am still confused on ur definition here.^_^

 

[duckroll]

I don't believe it's a problem specific to Japan.


This is a good point, but just to clarify, first of all, Elizabeth isn't a teenager, she's twenty years old. And by the time I was got to that section in Infinite, I was pretty tired of the "girl has traumatic experience so cuts her hair" trope so I wasn't a fan of that scene, I was a fan of Ken Levine reducing her breast size throughout development due to the comments made by players. And making sure her face is always in the center of the cutscenes:

That's good, I don't think anyone should argue that Japan does -not- have a problem with how women are seen in society, but the specific problem of entertainment mediums reinforcing poor standards is pretty much everything. We cannot ignore that.

I think the actual age of Elizabeth doesn't really register with me because of how she's portrayed. She's basically the vulnerable classic Disney Princess, who then finds her true self and "develops" into a ~strong heroine~. As you said, the trope is really old. The main intent is that she's a younger girl/woman who comes under the protection of a much older male protagonist. Mind you, I'm not condemning the game here, just pointing out that there are elements where which can come off as creepy.

Whoa whoa what? When does she switch to a low cut dress?? I also don't remember her being in the view in the actual game compared to those very scripted e3 demos.

I'm just referring to how she starts the game in the white outfit, and then switches to the blue one later. No matter how much her boob size was reduced, it's still very much part of the focus.

I think Jack's an interesting example since out of all the romance options in that game, it's easier to have sex with her first, this locks off all sort of interactions with her as she regrets it. But yea like I said, I find the Bioware archetypes too binary, even said as much after seeing the new Asari in Andromeda.

I think Jack is a very interesting character too. The problematic aspects of the character in fact make her more interesting, because I think aspects like that SHOULD be what a player thinks about when roleplaying in a scenario like that. If it's not somewhat troubling, then there's something wrong. But yes, Bioware tends to handwave stuff away with good/bad responses which trivializes a lot of naunce.

I think a key difference between things like this and violence is that violence is not only much more stylized in the vast majority of games, (regardless of realism or art style), but also much more contextualized in a way that makes it justifiable lest the player be subject to some form of punishment, like being killed by police or desynchronization.

I dunno if I really buy this though. Part of it might be true, but let's be honest, no matter how "stylized" sexual violence is it's never going to be cool. Custer's Revenge is about as stylized as you can get with regards to rape, and it's still definitely something that would raise a lot of eyebrows if you are like "this fucking rocks!!!" I mainly wonder about this disconnect between violence and sexuality in games because I personally find myself very troubled by God of War games and their depiction of violence. It may be over the top, it may be ridiculous, but the level of sadism and the invitation of player input to partake in the sadism is too much for me. But it remains a best selling series that has tons of fans who clearly have no problems at all with it. Not saying everyone doesn't, but most seem okay with the "it's just a game" or "greek mythology is fucking violent bro!" opinions.

What I do find hopeful is that at least the creators seem to recognize how troubling some of it can be for people who would otherwise enjoy the game for the combat and art direction, and are well aware of that when developing the new game. It's funny to see some fans worried that doing so would be betraying "true fans" of the series and making it what it isn't though.

 

[Dylan]

ITT: OP judges people, so people judge OP. I think I'm gonna buy 10 twinkies now and resist the urge to judge myself.

It's just a game. If you can't acknowledge a huge difference between reality and fiction, you are one of those fun people that are against rap music, action movies and 'those killer games', since they rot our minds. Holy shit, that part has to be satire.

In my defence I said "10 boxes of Twinkies".

10 individual Twinkies is a normal part of the North American diet plan and should never be judged as anything but a celebration of freedom.

 

[duckroll]

I agree with a ton of stuff you've just said. To answer your final question.

1. Violence in video games happens way more often than sex in games, therefore we are more numb to it's occurrence. As well as this it's embedded in game mechanics to the point where it is portrayed less as a thing that happens between two people and more as a way to achieve your goals (save world ect.).

2. Another thing is that is simply better material to base a conversation around. Themes of violence and it's consequences come up way more often, and more often than not in games which are interested in taking a nuanced look at things. For every Hatred, we have The Last of Us, The Walking Dead, Spec OPs et al. We have nothing of the quality of the previous games that look at sex.

Like I said before, I'm interested in games that explore sexual themes, but if it's stuff like this it's kinda just weak. I want to talk sexuality, but there's no interesting games to talk about.

I think 2. is a pretty good point. The absence of material to have healthy discussions on creates a much bleaker view of a subject. Because games which use sexuality tend to be superficial and cheap, the reputation is that if you have sex in your game you're just pandering to perverts or specific fetishes. This discourages developers from wanting to explore such themes unless they feel very strongly about them, because it cane be harmful for publicity and marketing. So we end up with a self fulfilling prophecy where most depictions of sexual themes in games are poor ones.

 

[Limality]

I checked my privileges and I must say, I see nothing wrong with the game and the people who are willing to spend money on it.

 

[akileese]

Very good post, OP. Really put words to my thought. Would much, much prefer it being a straight up sex game. Use grown up looks for the girls/guys, then go ahead and dress them however you prefer. It's not for me, but sex is awesome and porn using virtual people should by all accounts be better from a moral standpoint than actual women/men acting.
But this, this seems close a to a rape sim. "Rape light". Should be the name of the genre tbh

I really don't think you've even seen this game let alone play it. You cannot interact with this character with the exception of engaging in conversation with them. It's an interaction simulator and nothing more.

 

[Maiar_m]

"Don't judge me" is a pretty feeble defense. We all judge everybody everywhere everytime, that's how we fucking survived as a society. If you can't take the judgment maybe you're not questioning yourself hard enough or value the superficial opinions of others way too much.

Anyways, this game is contextually creepy. You play a character that's encouraged to creep on a young woman depending on your interpretation of gameplay and script elements, but it's not a reach at all to interpret them that way. It's not at all surprising though that this would exist within VR as it did and does all over the rest of the medium and media production as a whole anyways. Summer Lesson isn't a problem per se, nor is playing it for various reasons, it's just another evidence of a much larger audience and societal issue you're bound to find symptoms of pretty much everywhere. In a society where it wouldn't even cross your mind that a summer lesson simulator could incorporate creep elements, Summer Lesson is a nice VR game about a character teaching stuff to another, a routine simulator with social scenes. Saying it's just that in the current context is...naïve at best IMO.

 

[forknknife]

That doesn't make it not creepy/disturbing.

I haven't played the game so ultimately I don't know completely what experience it portrays. But it's entire setup is putting you in a position of power over a teenage girl and then having you groom (admittedly not sexually) and lightly flirt with her. And add to this the fact that the game "rewards" you as you continue through it by letting you see her in different outfits and in different scenarios.

It's a reproduction of a relationship that in most common society we don't approve of. That's what it portrays. The thing that really distinguishes it, the difference between it and something like for instance Lolita is the way these actions are framed. That's it's all okay and cool and that this relationship is okay. There's a really interesting version this game somewhere in the ether which contains its levity, but still examines the relationship displayed here and all it's participants (including us, the player).

This is not that game.

Therefore all we're left with is this really positive portrayal of what is often an abusive relationship. Hence the creepiness.

Yup, exactly this. And people playing this game are as entitled to disregard that fact as we are to feel that they are creepy for it.

 

[Horp]

I really don't think you've even seen this game let alone play it. You cannot interact with this character with the exception of engaging in conversation with them. It's an interaction simulator and nothing more.

I don't buy it. If its an "interaction simulator" why isnt the interaction with grown ups, possibly some men, or at fucking least someone not so stereotypically naughty-sexy as a short skirt school uniform under age or close to under age cute girl asking you to tutor her. Stop acting dumb. It's a sex fantasy. Ok you can't touch her, but of course you can't, it's virtual. It is intended to be only one thing, a simulator where you (you the player, not the character you are playing) can objectify a young woman and do a LOT of things she wouldn't agree with if she was real; like watching her in ways she would hate.
Yes, no one is getting harmed and there are tons of murder sims out there but if we're gonna go the sex fantasy way with VR let it be grown up, consentual sex.

 

[ZerOmegaG]

I still don't get what the "creeper" part is supposed to be. You can not do anything to the girl beyond answering questions and looking around and there is no sexual content in the game. Any kind of flirting that happens comes from the girl, does that mean the player is being creeped on?

 

[Horp]

I still don't get what the "creeper" part is supposed to be. You can not do anything to the girl beyond answering questions and looking around and there is no sexual content in the game. Any kind of flirting that happens comes from the girl, does that mean the player is being creeped on?

Next time I hang out with you I'll start looking at you from 1 cm distance, put my head close to your chest and then try to look under your skirt (if you wear a skirt that is).
Lets see if you think I'm "doing nothing", lol

 

[JulianImp]

But please, by all means continue to make fun of those actually trying to argue that it is a "teaching simulator" or whatever. Because that's the funniest excuse I've ever heard. That's why this game is so attractive, because people really, really like to teach! Amirite? Lol.

And we've come full circle, because the thread started with the OP stating that he worked in the teaching field and happened to find the game kind of creepy.

It'd actually be interesting if we could have a game where you'd be teaching a whole class (even if it is just around ten or so people), and have to juggle teaching subjects, asking specific students to read/solve problems, keeping the class focused and maybe even talking to specific students during/after class in order to try and help them out if they're having trouble with a subject (or maybe even with other students), try to keep them in line if they're making a ruckus and all that. It'd be even better if you could also try going for a self-teaching system as well, but then again implementing that kind of stuff on top of everything else would probably be way too demanding.

But yeah, the fact that you're teaching a high school girl is obviously one of the main selling points of the game, and is reflected in the DLC costumes and the foreign girl who will be added in a later version. Seeing all those messages (which I believe were written by the game's marketing team) focus on the fact that you're teaching a high school girl was off-putting, to say the least.

If the game were envisioned as a teaching simulator, it'd probably have gone the route of multiple character archetypes with minor alterations made at random to give more variance to the player, but as it is it sounds more like a VR version of Long Live the Queen, only with additional visual novel elements and a way shorter gameplay loop with considerably lower replay value.

 

[forknknife]

In Summer Lesson you are only as creepy as you want to be.

Now that's a slogan!

 

[Kinyou]

I don't buy it. If its an "interaction simulator" why isnt the interaction with grown ups, possibly some men, or at fucking least someone not so stereotypically naughty-sexy as a short skirt school uniform under age or close to under age cute girl asking you to tutor her. Stop acting dumb. It's a sex fantasy. Ok you can't touch her, but of course you can't, it's virtual. It is intended to be only one thing, a simulator where you (you the player, not the character you are playing) can objectify a young woman and do a LOT of things she wouldn't agree with if she was real; like watching her in ways she would hate.
Yes, no one is getting harmed and there are tons of murder sims out there but if we're gonna go the sex fantasy way with VR let it be grown up, consentual sex.

Unfortunately would Sony never allow that

 

[Horp]

Unfortunately would Sony never allow that

You are right. I kind of sympathize with that at the same time I don't. But this lewd, naughty-sim is not the way. Or maybe it is, but with proper grown ups please. A dating sim with all but the dirty stuff could be cool.

 

[The Technomancer]

A lot of similar questions and concerns can be aimed at dating sims as a whole but I think we haven't bothered because they've never been that popular and the fidelity frankly hasn't been there, much as discussions around violence didn't really start to (credibly) form until we were past Atari 2600 levels of graphical representation.

I don't agree with the OP entirely, but I also am not comfortable going "its just fiction what's the big deal geez!"

 

[docbon]

Oh look, it's the "ceci n'est pas une pipe" defence, we only need the "Chewbacca defence" now and this thread will be completed.

You mean you don't get titillated by an artist's exquisite brush stroke game?

 

[General Lee]

The low age rating gives them more potential coverage and sales I guess.

Yeah, it's the only way this game is on PS4 to begin with. Consoles simply don't allow for straight up adult games. DOAX is pretty much the most risque level for console, other than secondary content in games (Witcher for example) that aren't primarily about that. This is probably also why most people won't be interested in this game in actuality since it's got really nothing going for it outside the very mild titillation that probably won't satisfy those looking for something more, and what other "human interaction" there might be won't warrant a second look for those who are not just looking for actual erotic content.

It's sort of the other extreme compared to hardcore porn. Most people are looking for something in the middle, but there's always a subset that don't go for middle ground. I'm sure there's plenty of examples in the West too of this type of tame but sorta pervy stuff, though maybe not direct comparisons. This sort of soft titillative content is much more common in Japan, where sexuality and cuteness intermingle more than in the West where it's considered creepy since cuteness is mostly normatively limited to kids and animals. Who's in the wrong there?

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's good, I don't think anyone should argue that Japan does -not- have a problem with how women are seen in society, but the specific problem of entertainment mediums reinforcing poor standards is pretty much everything. We cannot ignore that.

So you'd see why people would have an issue with a game like this which normalizes grooming as if it's an okay thing.

I think the actual age of Elizabeth doesn't really register with me because of how she's portrayed. She's basically the vulnerable classic Disney Princess, who then finds her true self and "develops" into a ~strong heroine~. As you said, the trope is really old. The main intent is that she's a younger girl/woman who comes under the protection of a much older male protagonist. Mind you, I'm not condemning the game here, just pointing out that there are elements where which can come off as creepy.[/QUOTE]
After watching the cutscenes while waiting for your reply, I really don't agree, her interactions with Booker are never done in a way where romance was the intent or implication, actually the fatherly talk starts quite fast. You're right she very much a disney princess archetype but not in a creepy naive way.

I'm just referring to how she starts the game in the white outfit, and then switches to the blue one later. No matter how much her boob size was reduced, it's still very much part of the focus.

Not with the way the game frames her in the context of the camera, Booker is taller so the focus was definitely put to emphasize her expressions and face. So there's never anything like this in-game.

as it stands there's a really big difference between this:

and this:

if there was i'd agree but as it stands it's just about as problematic as say Joel and Ellie's co-dependency. Who displays a similar naivety, (seriously there are no fireflies in those zones??)

I think Jack is a very interesting character too. The problematic aspects of the character in fact make her more interesting, because I think aspects like that SHOULD be what a player thinks about when roleplaying in a scenario like that. If it's not somewhat troubling, then there's something wrong. But yes, Bioware tends to handwave stuff away with good/bad responses which trivializes a lot of naunce.

Yea, they should, and since her quest line gets cut off I hope more players thought about their actions.

I dunno if I really buy this though. Part of it might be true, but let's be honest, no matter how "stylized" sexual violence is it's never going to be cool.

I was referring to more traditional violence like fighting against goons, not sexual violence....games are WAY too primitive when it comes to depictions of sexual violence

Custer's Revenge is about as stylized as you can get with regards to rape, and it's still definitely something that would raise a lot of eyebrows if you are like "this fucking rocks!!!" I mainly wonder about this disconnect between violence and sexuality in games because I personally find myself very troubled by God of War games and their depiction of violence. It may be over the top, it may be ridiculous, but the level of sadism and the invitation of player input to partake in the sadism is too much for me. But it remains a best selling series that has tons of fans who clearly have no problems at all with it. Not saying everyone doesn't, but most seem okay with the "it's just a game" or "greek mythology is fucking violent bro!" opinions.

And now they're trying to humanize Kratos...

What I do find hopeful is that at least the creators seem to recognize how troubling some of it can be for people who would otherwise enjoy the game for the combat and art direction, and are well aware of that when developing the new game. It's funny to see some fans worried that doing so would be betraying "true fans" of the series and making it what it isn't though.

I think the things Kratos has done is not justifiable enough for him to redeemable. He literally fucked that region of the world and now he's in Norse times.

 

[shandy706]

At least Milo never happened.

Why did I burst out laughing at this?! So wrong.


Anyway, OP...

This is an individual thing. I never, ever, relate video games to real life. I personally would be attracted too, and might enjoy this particular game in a way that is different than anyone else. That's due to me being a male that LOVES the female form though, so I'd enjoy the game aspect but would also love "looking" at the character.

The game isn't inherently "sexual" (assuming they don't put anything directly sexual in it). If the character want's to show me her "beach vacation shot", due to my likes, I'd be happy to see her in what is hopefully a bikini...haha.

However, if my daughter were offered a chance to see her "beach vacation shot"...she would innocently approach it as a "cool, yes I want to see the beach you went too!"

So it's down to the user. Again, assuming they don't push any actually "provocative" stuff in the game.

Color me surprised if they keep it completely "clean" though. I haven't played it obviously and I know I'm not touching on the discussion from every angle presented in the OP.

 

[ZerOmegaG]

Next time I hang out with you I'll start looking at you from 1 cm distance, put my head close to your chest and then try to look under your skirt (if you wear a skirt that is).
Lets see if you think I'm "doing nothing", lol

Besides the ridiculousness of comparing this to real life, this is all on you if you want to do these actions. Do you have a problem with camera control in games?

 

[forknknife]

At least Milo never happened.

Lol

 

[uomoartificiale]

Things I learned recently about GAF: it seems a very progressive hive-mind but it's actually full of closet alt-right anime lovers, who would go to any length in order not to have their fun spoiled by any sensible or reasonable opinion.

Sorry OP, if someone is already so invested in the game as to declare that he would buy it and play it without thinking about the very evident issues you pointed out, there's no convincing that could make them think otherwise. You will only get back vitriol and sarcasm to reflect back any possible introspection. No discussion will ever happen on these basis.

 

[Koriandrr]

I guess people are finally starting to understand what it means to be a woman in Japan.
What exactly makes you think that men feel any different when talking to women/schoolgirls in Japan and that their mentality about it is any different than this game?

 

[Portugeezer]

Things I learned recently about GAF: it seems a very progressive hive-mind but it's actually full of closet alt-right anime lovers, who would go to any length in order not to have their fun spoiled by any sensible or reasonable opinion.

Sorry OP, if someone is already so invested in the game as to declare that he would buy it and play it without thinking about the very evident issues you pointed out, there's no convincing that could make them think otherwise. You will only get back vitriol and sarcasm to reflect back any possible introspection. No discussion will ever happen on these basis.

They have a different opinion than you therefore they are alt-right.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I still don't get what the "creeper" part is supposed to be. You can not do anything to the girl beyond answering questions and looking around and there is no sexual content in the game. Any kind of flirting that happens comes from the girl, does that mean the player is being creeped on?

The flirting doesn't come from the girl, there is no 'girl,' just a male fantasy. It's 'male gaze: the game.'

Think about this, even if you personally don't find it creepy, would you be comfortable recommending and demoing this game for your mom/gf/sister etc.? This isn't like a sex/rape scene in Game of Thrones, where it's one aspect of a complex narrative, Summer Lesson is just about spending time alone in a teenage girl's bedroom... If she fought a dragon in chapter 2 or something fine, but it looks like chapter 2 is taking her to the beach and chapter 3 is visiting her at her job where she dresses up like a maid...

 

[wildfire]

Yes, I get what he's saying, and what I'm saying is that this "morals" thing is all relative. What OP finds questionable, or "awkward shudder and eye-rolling", is to other people just fiction that has no bearing whatsoever to their real lives.

Sure everything is relative and that also means a game like this can have a very negative effect on certain people who wouldn't have gotten this experience before VR.


Summer Lesson is pushing several boundaries by creating a more realistic puppet based on how people are. Funnily enough this is the same type of moral grey area that HBO's WestWorld is addressing and in that show it is working towards making the point games like this allow you to explore the best and worst in you.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm actually very very interested in how the framing of things would change if she was the one tutoring you instead, which would almost definitively place you in a peer role to her. As it stands a lot of the conversation seems to be about the ambiguity of your role in things

 

[brad-t]

I'm all for sexual and romantic experiences in VR, but I agree with the OP that centering them solely around interacting with oblivious teenagers is kind of disturbing.

 

[Melon Husk]

I think you create this dilemma by trying to fit his cultural standards over a different cultural frame. They don't make games like this in the west, so I think you have to ask the Japanese gamers what they think of it. We can discuss how western gamers respond to it but I would guess that a large portion would be confused like you are. The rest would buy it out of sheer curiosity. Only a small part would be the really, really lonely people or creeps (or teens). In Japan the make-up of that pie-chart wouldn't have the same context or composition.


Basing this on the fact that Summer Lesson isn't being released in the west, which [postulating] has to be based on BAMCO having done some focus group testing. If they haven't, then they know without testing that it's too, eh, culturally unexportable.

 

[daveo42]

It's not quite the same but I always have it happen when I'm doing group projects for school that people get on FB or Instagram to share pictures of a hot girl that is a friend or an acquaintance for all. I roll my eyes when it happens but it engages in a similar ogling, where there's sexualization out of something that isn't specifically sexual and there's some sexual fantasy involved unconsciously with it.

The major difference is that there's no direct interaction with the girl in question. My impression of Summer Lesson is that it's actively inviting the player from engage on passive sexualization of the girl in question. Light flirting and some arousing stimulation via visuals seems to be the center of attention, with the teaching element being both the setting of the fantasy & power play while also being the wrapping paper for the software at hand. I don't think it's asking for everyone to masturbate to it but at the very least it wants the player to be infatuated with the girl.

It's also a rather interesting turn around from traditional dating sims, in which you're romancing the girls to reach that final "reward", since here it'll never move towards a direct romance, leaving you as a certain outsider (which is better for VR) and in a routine engagement without the end goal.

I'd think most people that aren't keen to the concept just shrug it off and ignore it, hence the positive echo room that you feel. But I don't think AI is up to the level were one should be concerned about the deceitful nature or objetification set in place, since this at the very worst would be comparable to phone sex line, which is fantasy all the way.

The more noteworthy bit is that this is being pushed as the forefront of the VR experience for consumers. Which I guess we'll see how it pans out in a broader sense outside of the 400k that purchase it. Advertising can also be a bit sly, for instance, Ninja Gaiden is advertised for the boobs in Japan, while it's very much a quality action game first.

Thank you for this post. This pretty much encapsulates my feelings on what the game portrays itself to be and what the game actually is. That's not to say that it can be played specifically towards how to best tutor your student, it is just being pushed in the opposite direction based on player discretion on where to take the conversation in later parts of each day's lesson. The innocence of the game at this point comes down to the player's mindset going into the game and what they want to get out of the experience. Based on marketing and future planned DLC, it would appear that it is much less innocent as a "tutor simulator" and being pushed to consumers as such.

Lastly, I do agree with the OP in terms of it coming off a bit more creepy than normal in that the game is pushing human interaction and humanizing the girl while also promoting the use of that interaction to gain an additional level of attraction from her as the week progresses. This might be a bit more acceptable if the game was more upfront about it being a flirting simulator or even a girlfriend one and use the tutor aspect as a backdrop. Or better yet if you were a TA and she was a college student. I'm not sure, but the age/level of education of the student and player intentions go along way in taking past the level of an innocent tutor/student relationship.

My two cents, based on release trailers and what I've seen of some extended gameplay sessions. I think it would be interesting to try at some point for the sake of trying it (Sense of presence is fucking insane in VR and can get real weird when you are close to a character).

 

[DOWN]

You are straight judging people who like this stuff. Like "I feel sorry for people who like this" - why? That's some complex ya got.

VR on the consoles already has a wide breath of stuff out and coming out. Batman, Thumper, Wayward Sky, Until Dawn, and there's even an adventure game coming out (or already out) that's for the PSVR. That's not even considering how many VR games are already out for the PC that are wide in breath. It's weird to act like some game situated solely in Japan makes up the whole when it's only a small part.

In short, let people have their fun and get off your high horse.

Edit: Forgot to address Summer Lesson itself. It's not even sexualized. If you wanna draw the humanistic angle, I get that, but due to the tameness of the game, it's hard to feel disgusted all things considered .

Can't say it seems realistic to ignore the trends regarding the focus on an oblivious teen in a miniskirt school uniform who also dresses up as a French maid for you, her teacher...

 

[wildfire]

"Don't judge me" is a pretty feeble defense. We all judge everybody everywhere everytime, that's how we fucking survived as a society. If you can't take the judgment maybe you're not questioning yourself hard enough or value the superficial opinions of others way too much.

Anyways, this game is contextually creepy. You play a character that's encouraged to creep on a young woman depending on your interpretation of gameplay and script elements, but it's not a reach at all to interpret them that way. It's not at all surprising though that this would exist within VR as it did and does all over the rest of the medium and media production as a whole anyways. Summer Lesson isn't a problem per se, nor is playing it for various reasons, it's just another evidence of a much larger audience and societal issue you're bound to find symptoms of pretty much everywhere. In a society where it wouldn't even cross your mind that a summer lesson simulator could incorporate creep elements, Summer Lesson is a nice VR game about a character teaching stuff to another, a routine simulator with social scenes. Saying it's just that in the current context is...naïve at best IMO.

Basically the game caters to our desire to objectify each other.

This might touch on why the OP is uncomfortable with the game being a very annoying halls measure.


I'm sure the OP doesn't object to nude magazines like Playboy. But the thing with Playboy is that it's very limited in how we can ogle a woman.

Just like video took this to a new level weer now have VR pushing into territories that wasn't practical.

 

[sechsterangriff]

The flirting doesn't come from the girl, there is no 'girl,' just a male fantasy. It's 'male gaze: the game.'

Think about this, even if you personally don't find it creepy, would you be comfortable recommending and demoing this game for your mom/gf/sister etc.?

Without thinking twice, yeah I would. As the game is now there's absolutely nothing whatsoever I think they would cringe about.

EDIT: Maybe they would be suprised or feel awkward that sometimes she "fades in" right in front of you?

 

[hughesta]

A good friend of mine moved to Japan to teach Japanese students English and she loves the idea of this game. I won't deny that there are some elements to it that make me uncomfortable, but the idea of the game isn't based solely in perversion and it seems to do a good job building up a character. I hear it's incredibly tame and really is simply a game about teaching a girl English over time.

The idea of a game with a selling point of "wow! It's just like real human interaction!" is sad but that's just about the extent of my issues with it. As long as the other girls that get released continue the focus on character building over lewdness, I'm fine with it.

 

[JetSetRadio]

She's the creepy one, keep your distance girl!

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Things I learned recently about GAF: it seems a very progressive hive-mind but it's actually full of closet alt-right anime lovers, who would go to any length in order not to have their fun spoiled by any sensible or reasonable opinion.

Sorry OP, if someone is already so invested in the game as to declare that he would buy it and play it without thinking about the very evident issues you pointed out, there's no convincing that could make them think otherwise. You will only get back vitriol and sarcasm to reflect back any possible introspection. No discussion will ever happen on these basis.

What this post also tells me is that only white people enjoy anime.

 

[Curry-Hakase]

If video games haven't made me criminally violent then these games aren't going to turn me into a sexual predator.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

People were being all nudge nudge wink wink about this title before it was released so I think theres some truth to what the op is getting at. It just seems that that element of it wasn't necessarily intentional on the part of the creators.