Funyarinpa
Member
Don't really get how just one of the two characters in a video game is supposed to represent all women.
My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
- Start date
I guess some westerns can't grasp the idea of a more liberated culture. What a shame.
Japan is pretty sexist though. I don't think that is in dispute. Games like these have nothing to do with it though. The problem is not with games that dozens of people will play and forget after a week.
Japan is pretty sexist though. I don't think that is in dispute. Games like these have nothing to do with it though. The problem is not with games that dozens of people will play and forget after a week.
Alright I need both of you to pen an essay about the influence of Taisho era literature in order to find out who is the Japan expert I should listen to. Please cite your sources.
Also for funsies, according to the 2016 World Happiness Report, Japan ranks as #53, and surprisingly Syria is not last.
This concludes my post in a thread about a game where you look at a big boobed girl with magic glasses.
AmaterasuOkami076
Member
Doesn't the fundamental attribution error come into play here? Something about how we judge others by their deeds but ourselves by our intentions.
Whilst I agree with some parts of the OP, I really don't think it's fair to tar everyone who purchases this game with the same brush and assume their intentions are the worst.
Whilst I agree with some parts of the OP, I really don't think it's fair to tar everyone who purchases this game with the same brush and assume their intentions are the worst.
TylerDurden4321
Member
Sorry for saying this so late in the thread, but it needs to be said:
This OP is super well written! Congrats @Dylan,
you could write for Vice gaming or so and I'd actually read your stuff.
This OP is super well written! Congrats @Dylan,
you could write for Vice gaming or so and I'd actually read your stuff.
SolarMystic
Banned
If you don't get it, then I can't help you.
Yes, but by supporting these industries and not putting them or the people who frequent them under scrutiny, you're just enabling and reinforcing the status-quo. To the men who live in a wrapped reality, you're just telling them, "it's okay, there's a place for you. Women are subservient-sex objects. See? If you come to the safe maid café, she'll act the way you think that real women act."
As far as Pachinko parlors, well, that also has to deal with another dark side of Japan which is the work environment/ethic. Which is another topic that people tend to be dismissive toward. This is a first world country that has some serious issues with human rights, I'm of the opinion that it's always better to question the status-quo rather than disregard it. Especially if the offenses are as egregious as they are in Japan.
I doubt she was watching a show that gets exported to the west; the ones that we commonly associate with the colloquial term "anime." There are shows like Sazae-san, Doraemon, Pokémon, One Piece, Chibi, and An-panman, which are regularly watch by families/children. These shows air during peak hours; new episodes Saturday mornings and Sunday at prime time. (Most of these shows will never gain a foothold in the west as they don't translate well due to cultural differences and ideas) Further, Ghibli films. So in that sense, yes cartoons are popular, however most of these are not the same cartoons that make it to the west.
You then have the traditional shows that we in the west are familiar with. Here are two examples:
http://anime-eupho.com/onair/
http://3lion-anime.com/onair/
As you can see, these air late at night. With the earliest time being 10 at night for Sound! Euphonium on a premium satellite channel that a majority of people in Japan don't even have. The premier is at midnight on a Wednesday. The other example, airs at 11 at night, on NHK, a channel that rarely carries any cartoons that we're familiar with. Some of these kinds of shows occasionally break out to minimal or moderate mainstream success, but they're never going to touch the above listed shows in popularity. The above shows are what mainstream people refer to as anime. Not shows like K-On! or whatever. Comics are the same.
There was a documentary a few years ago that discussed the work culture in Japan and cited some studies showing that due the work culture it was the most unhappy country in the world (or at least the first world). I'll try to dig it up. But in the meantime, you can peek into kuroshi, which is essentially being worked to death. This stems from the industrialization of Japan, post-WW2 and is still a very present problem.
Yes, as with the youth of most countries they want to change things for the better. However; that doesn't make it acceptable that it's still a problem today and it is still a problem in Japan. This can't change overnight, if we want to see real reform in Japan, you have to change a lot more than just the work culture, this runs deep and starts with the education system and fundamental values that they hold as a culture. That needs to change, first and foremost. Following the bad practices of Confucius is obviously going to land them in a bad place, and it has.
This kind of product is harmful, because, like I said above, it just reinforces the idea toward the men in Japan who have a distorted reality of what real women are like, how you should treat them, and what a real interaction is like. It just further compels them to have an unhealthy image of women.
I already said you're really misunderstanding what I'm saying. I said propaganda is art, not that art is propaganda. However; there is something to be said there and more than likely warrants further investigation.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
My experience is that both are true. It depends on the family.
There is the general consensus that once you become an adult, you should stop watching cartoons though. Or at least, watching them shouldn't be your hobby.
Succinct and well said. I'll be requoting you in the future.
On a fundamental level there isn't any actual harm to another person but there clearly is a problem with a person who needs this as an outlet or the way we interact with each other as a society is fundamentally flawed.
I see 3 people responded to you but none of them explained the context here.
There are a lot of Japanese people whose fondest memories are high school because college life is crushing and entering the work force is even worse. High School is when you first explore sexuality and still don't have a lot of real life pressure on you aside from cramming for college (which is the leading cause for Japans higher percentage of suicide rates compared to other economically similar countries) There are a lot of people dissatisfied with adult life which is probably why Japan is coming to learn that they have a huge increase in adult virgins.
Summer Lesson caters to men because it's made by men but many of the women are no better. The OP definitely is onto something about how this game asks you to do the wrong thing. It's a salve for their male audience but the country is going to have to do a lot to make an experience like Summer Lesson irrelevant.
Just seen this thread
While I don't really agree with this (as in: yes, I think I agree Japan is a bit creepy in general with the young girls stuff) yeah, I always found the shooting dudes obsession waaaaaay more disturbing.
Just to be clear, I don't find disturbing that such a game is sold, I just find disturbing that those kind of games have so much success.
Personally I don't really see any problem with this game, especially because from what I understandyou're free to play it like you want, while for example there are tons of missions in GTA where you have to forcefully kill somebody.
Unless we are talking about a children, or rape, I have no problem whatsoever with sexual stuff in games, personally.
Is anyone suggesting that this game encourages some kind of malicious behaviour in real life? Because I see it as a really, really dangerous road to go down to, and I have not really seen any good counter argument about how the same wouldn't apply to violence in non-over the top games.
Out of curiosity I asked my wife what she thought about this (I picked a random gameplay vid) and she just laughed and asked if it was a real game or "VR Hentai" lol
I don't plan to buy the game nor VR in general, but after I've read that Wired article, I wouldn't mind trying it.
While I don't really agree with this (as in: yes, I think I agree Japan is a bit creepy in general with the young girls stuff) yeah, I always found the shooting dudes obsession waaaaaay more disturbing.
Just to be clear, I don't find disturbing that such a game is sold, I just find disturbing that those kind of games have so much success.
Personally I don't really see any problem with this game, especially because from what I understandyou're free to play it like you want, while for example there are tons of missions in GTA where you have to forcefully kill somebody.
Unless we are talking about a children, or rape, I have no problem whatsoever with sexual stuff in games, personally.
Is anyone suggesting that this game encourages some kind of malicious behaviour in real life? Because I see it as a really, really dangerous road to go down to, and I have not really seen any good counter argument about how the same wouldn't apply to violence in non-over the top games.
Out of curiosity I asked my wife what she thought about this (I picked a random gameplay vid) and she just laughed and asked if it was a real game or "VR Hentai" lol
I don't plan to buy the game nor VR in general, but after I've read that Wired article, I wouldn't mind trying it.
Or you're simply not making sense. A character is a singular person, not a representation of every single woman.
SolarMystic
Banned
The person who thinks sexual assault being allowed in videogames is okay says I'm not making sense.
Okay.
AlexFlame116
Member
Wait I'm sorry but are you saying that this game is promoting sexual assault? Or that it has sexual assault in it?
I'm sorry for being able to differentiate between reality and fiction.
SolarMystic
Banned
Nope, go back and read the exchange between me and OmegaX0.
Not the point.
Funyarinpa
Member
I wish you would explain why a single woman has to be-or is- representing anybody beyond her own character.
AlexFlame116
Member
I did. That's why I asked the question but if I misinterpreted then nevermind. Sorry.
SolarMystic
Banned
Read the many topics on this forum about representation in media.
The forum has a handy search function.
SolarMystic
Banned
Basically, the basis of OmegaX0 argument was that we as gamers should demonstrate self control when playing a game such as this. I gave an extreme example of "what if devs programmed sexual assault in the game?". OmegaX0 was on board with that terrible idea.
AlexFlame116
Member
Ahh. Gotcha. Again I'm sorry about that. It's hard to keep track of what's going on in this thread now.
chillybright
Banned
Except that is the entire point.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
And people wonder why GG exists and why shit like this is insanely common, which is just as bad as GG because it's not demonized anywhere near as much as it should be.
Liberated, dude, Japan has one of the most conservative modern cultures in the world, especially when it comes to the roles women are told to play in society. Holy shit some people are so out of touch with that place. Their pornography is straight up censored and dudes are unironically saying that they're liberated.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
Fair enough, and in fact I sympathise with this POV. I'm of a liberal mindset and don't find much value in actual censorship. I believe if we operate below the level of our fears, we deny ourselves the opportunity to overcome them. There are limits to who should see what, but I wouldn't want to set them in stone. I wrote two short paragraphs in my previous post there, the first from which you quoted was essentially fantasy, as I tried to show by closing with "to receive a million dollars." The second paragraph referenced the extent to which I think this game merits 'action', in this case simply the intellectual action of arguing against.
This post raises a crucial counterpoint for me, which is that (I wouldn't know, but) I'm sure there are tonnes of Japanese games which already simulate very similar or even idential situations. I didn't object to those, because they weren't making waves over here (they were thus outside my awareness to object to anyway), and because very likely the production values were on the low end - 2D characters animated on 2D screens.
Summer Lesson is here to be discussed on the other hand, and is also to an extent a poster child for VR's ability to realise fantastical situations. Therefore I'm taking the trouble to object to this game, because the newly realised ability to put the player right into this situation is more keenly troubling, and because it threatens to cast a somewhat ugly shadow over a new technology that I find incredibly exciting. So you are quite right on both these scores.
At this point I want to bring in another objection I had trouble with, which is the parity with simulated violence in videogames. I've always pretty much ignored the histrionics around violence in games, because my gut told me it was a non-issue. I have to admit there's nothing rational about that, I just always basically felt that I knew what I was doing, and that what I was doing was 'just fun'. Thinking about it, the violence in games is more often than not the context for an intellectual challenge - cat and mouse with a games AI, for instance. Anyway I say this only to indicate that I'd never gone all that far to investigate this question for myself, and therefore I was genuinely troubled by the position that moral objections to games of any sort were incompatible with the enjoyment of violent games.
The difference however is that, AFAICR, I never killed any kids in any game that I played. The specific problem I feel Summer Lesson poses is one of childlike innocence, and the players' tacit reaction to it. The reason I'm inspired to post in disfavour of this game is because, at least in my own culture, I have to take moral exception to anybody (above say roughly 2 years older than the girl) finding the experience of extended, isolated contact with her to be titillating.
I'm borderline middle-age. Enjoying Summer Lesson simply does not compute for me. I would propose that probably the majority of those who find the game objectionable are themselves in the age range that puts the sensual enjoyment of a teenager's company to be beyond the pale; whereas those most strongly in its defence could probably be those for whom doing so just sounds like a good time.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's based on multiple sources. And other articles on the subject confirm the same things. It's a big issue.
I mean, consider that you're asking for instances of more "proof" in a well cited article and then consider that it's even worse in Japan.
Or maybe look outside your bubble.
Consider that your singular experience doesn't represent the whole of Japan. Hence why articles like that exist, to point to a cultural issue that isn't acknowledged anywhere near as much as it should be. Even more so because of the downplaying and victim blaming. Also, just as an aside, the character in this game is a male:
So that puts the bed the incredibly dishonest assertion that this game was a)made with a female perspective in mind in anyway shape or form, and b)that we might be playing as a woman.
You mean this thing that is completely unrelated to the discussion of video game character's actions and player choice?
Funyarinpa
Member
I would like to hear *your* opinion and interpretation on the matter. Because I still think that assuming a single character is (mis)representing the entire female gender is BS. The character says or implies nothing about all females. If you are deducing that that is the case, then it's on you for extrapolating a single character's traits unto all women.
uomoartificiale
Member
Thanks for pointing out a sound explanation about Japan's obsession with the high school years. A part from the pervy games and animes, this actually gives some context to Persona's success even within a more mature demographics.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
No it's completely related to the audience of gaming. You simply cannot argue that the rampant sexism in the gaming community isn't a result of the rampant sexism in the games themselves, media influences an audience especially over decades of time. So yes it's "player choice." But also a very direct result of how the medium has treated one gender compared to the other. No one tells a dude to get in the kitchen the second they put on a mic.
I'd search for proofs like gender terms in her lines instead of that to prove if she is inherently supposed to interact with a male interlocutor.Also, just as an aside, the character in this game is a male:
So that puts the bed the incredibly dishonest assertion that this game was a)made with a female perspective in mind in anyway shape or form, and b)that we might be playing as a woman.
That placeholder/reference mannequin doesn't tell much
Wait.. Is the proof in the drawing?
Based on that drawing, he must not be an art tutor.
sensui-tomo
Member
There's an official English teacher where they replace sensei with SIR
PhleBuster
Neo Member
You know, that's actually offensive... can't believe someone would use that as a translation choice in the context. Then again it's just a rough sub job they put up for the announcement, probably not reflective of final product.
Then bring that up instead. It's much easier.
Any piece of media is an interpretation of reality that will end up projection said representation back to an audience. Summer Lesson has 2 burdens that make it a centerpiece for critique, it's a representation of the adoration fetish, where being pampered is ultimate satisfaction. Second, it's VR's poster child, so it carry a banner of the direction of the technology while normalizing via role playing the power play of servitude. I hope nobody responds with the literal role of teacher/tutors as educators since I expect people to see through the façade that this game is.
It's not that this represents *every* woman. It's that the message portrayed is of woman's natural servitude and dependency of men. It's not that this also shouldn't exist, it is what it is, and VR has always been pitched as a way to live out fantasies of any kind, but it's not exempt of criticism and the desire of this not dominating the appropriation of this technology.
My beef is not with the folks that enjoy it, but those that have to deny, either publicly or to themselves what this is in order to enjoy it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
She's drawing the character you play as.
Is it the hair?
Uhm...
Funyarinpa
Member
Thank you! How do you think it gives off a message about a topic as broad as "the dependency of men and women's natural servitude" if it does not state, implicitly or explicitly, anything so broad in scope? Why would the interaction between these two characters portray, as you allege, a general concept?
Servitude? The role of the tutor in this scenario is to her benefit, not your own, as is potrayed by the game's setting. Also I see a lot of fear of what "they" will think of this new technology, what shadows "this" game will cast on it, and I can't help but think haven't we been over this already? That one singular game will somehow poison the well for all future endeavors, it wasn't true back then, and I don't think it's true now. Also positioning this game as at the forefront of the VR experience is in no way correct, as others have stated before the hoops you would have to jump through to access this game in the west essentially guarantee's no mainstream consumer, even one that has already purchased a vr set, would be made aware of and cause damage to the public conscious.
Yes, someone else brought this up earlier too. I agree that out of context it is a nothing scene, but my reaction in the OP was to the trailer, and specifically, the way that line of dialogue is inserted into the trailer.
It's possible that the publisher really wanted people to know that in this game, you will be looking at a picture of a pool, but personally I don't really buy it. I think it serves at yet another not-so-subtle "wink" as to why this game exists and more importantly, the way in which the publisher chooses to motivate people to play it.
uomoartificiale
Member
Your character must really be some buff aggressive lesbian, to have that poor girl covering her vagina and breasts like that...
Zeus The Dino
Member
OP is thinking too god damn deep into this
What is the point of the game anyways, looks boring as hell, like it was made for people with no friends.
What is the point of the game anyways, looks boring as hell, like it was made for people with no friends.
AmaterasuOkami076
Member
I think you're being a tad disingenuous here. It's obviously not the publisher wanting you to know you'll be looking at a picture of a pool. The picture is irrelevant, it's just showing another way of interacting with this character.
Battlechili
Banned
Please. That would make some people actually like her more. I happen to know quite a few people who fantasize about dragons.
I think if they had such elaborate intentions they wouldn't have included the moment of her actually showing the picture where you see that it's just a pool.
A lot of people brought this up throughout the thread. To those people I ask, does anyone really think that my motivation behind this thread is to uniformly call out everyone who plays this game as immoral, or a pervert, etc? On a message board, it's easy to go on a witch hunt and say "person's opinion is invalid because person is bad because statement."
Most reasonable people have the ability to understand that actions probably do not reflect 100% the intentions or motivations of the actor. I think that's pretty safe to say, and I didn't really think I needed to preface the OP with it.
At the same time, that doesn't mean that we don't also naturally react to people's actions with some degree of assumptions as to their motivations. I brought up the Twinkie allegory, (which hilariously seemed to break peoples brains, ironically causing a mild shitstorm of hate), because I do believe that as humans we do have emotional reactions to other peoples' actions, and even if they are fleeting, this initial response offers clues to our assumptions and personal feelings about the scenario.
Tons of people in this thread have posted as if they approach every situation in life with measured and unbiased interpretations. I call bullshit on every single one of those people. If my best friend comes to the bar and says "I just watched every episode of According to Jim", well, I'm going to feel embarrassed for my friend, even though 1) enjoyment of a sitcom is entirely subjective and 2) he may have had any number of reasons for watching those episodes beyond "liking" it. But to say I don't have an initial, emotional response, is dishonest.
As for Summer Lesson, for me the embarrassment comes from the fact that I, as a person who enjoys video games as a medium, has had to put up with these products of Japanese "culture" for way too long, and I'm tired of it. I think the breaking point for me was Metal Gear Solid 4. There are many examples in that game, including this:
..user controlled boob jiggling. Now, I fucking love Metal Gear Solid 4 for many reasons, but when this happens, I feel embarrassed for myself. I feel embarrassed for anyone who plays the game and comes across the scene. I feel embarrassed for the developers and it does make me question the motivations behind putting something like this in the game. Obviously, I don't identify as a pervert, and most people who played MGS4 probably don't either. But I'm not going to pretend I'm so diplomatically neutral on these types of issues that if someone came to me and said, "Did you see the boob jiggling part?? That was AWESOME.", that it wouldn't colour my opinion of that person. It definitely would. The same person might later explain that they were actually interested in the implication of Sixaxis controls, and what this might mean for the future of gaming, which is fine, but that doesn't' mean I'm wrong to have my initial reaction.
As for Summer Lesson, yes it's definitely true that a lot of people will play this game just to experience the many extremely interesting aspects that go along with this type of VR game. But that should beg the question: If nobody is playing this game for the experience of hanging out with a young girl in a school uniform with what appears to be a master-tier-crafted Wonderbra, then why the fuck was this game made in the first place? Why isn't this game about any other type of human interaction? I made a few suggestions in the OP as I was writing, so surely the devlopers & publisher could just as easily dreamed up something different. They chose this. I ask, why?
I ask why, as gamers, are we so quick to defend these things under the banner of "freedom of expression". Why does the slightest criticism have to be dismissed as "judgmental"? I personally think that it's a good idea to meet these types of games head-on, with "Hey, fuck off with this already. We are on the brink of an amazing technology, so do your job and give us something amazing. Don't give us low hanging fruit. Don't treat your audience as if they can't enjoy something that isn't a bucket of slime, and don't insult our intelligence by dressing it up like something that isn't still slimey at its core."
Well, my argument rests on the position of what I see this game as; which is a dating sim subversed, where purity is maintained throughout without the final goal of intercourse. Instead, the reward for forming a bond is the attention and appreciation the girl will have for you. Getting fed by her, as I see it, is a pretty intimate act between the couple. The role of the teacher is transformed into one of the "master". This transformation of the role is the thing that allows it to be projected to how relationships should play out.
We are talking about Japan here, not the global impact of VR. And I'm not worried about VR being appropriated as an Otaku home. The problem is one that is embedded culturally, woman's role in society. I don't give a rats ass about taking your toys away from you.