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[Camp Lo]

I bet you if a black coworker heard her and called her a "racist bitch". The people defending the ol racist lady wouldn't have any problems with that black employee being canned ASAP.

To be fair, they probably wouldn't have hired a black person in this place to spare L's feelings.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

I read that part, but it literally does not matter. Nobody cares about her feelings or opening her eyes, and nobody should care. Considering her should not be priority over protecting the business and protecting the black and Jewish employees who could potentially work for you.

Which is why I said it doesn't matter.

 

[DoktorEvil]

What does sensitivity training do for the rest of the employees in the work environment? This isn't just about her, that's what many people fail to realize. By allowing her to continue employment, everyone else that has to be around her is going to know she has these thoughts and it's going to make them uncomfortable REGARDLESS of what HR does bar firing her. Sensitivity training is done before issues occur, not after. Because honestly, as a black person, I'm not going to give a shit if HR gives a person in my work place sensitivity training after stating that I'm not worthy of dating her daughter because I have black skin. Do you expect me to be okay working around someone like that?

Yeah it's not about her, it's about how uncomfortable she made other people.

Everything that she has done or not done prior to this incident negates any goodwill and if a manager has to choose her or a stable workplace, you bet her ass is gone.

But then why pay tens of thousands of dollars a month for HR, which includes insurance policies designed to prevent wrongful lawsuits against the company & diversity/sensitivity training manuals, when it's not going to be used in the first place or to discipline employees? Businesses have a social obligation as well if it conflicts with their business goals.

 

[riotous]

Weird coincidence. Today I was reprimended for using the term "oriental". I've used it my entire life and never thought it as a racial slur, but apparently, it now means "object" rather than "person from the east". So what about occidental now?

Fuck being politically correct. That shit changes too much.
"Don't say black. Say African-American."
"We're not from Africa! Just call us black!"
What the fuck.
.

Does it really change too much?

Or maybe.. barely ever and it's not hard at all to keep up on, especially when people let you know?

You are behind the times by at least 2 decades by the way referring to people as "Orientals".. it's not some epic racist offense in most people's minds, just something you avoid saying.. which someone.. taught you.

Instead of just learning something and moving on, you get angry.. why?

 

[royalan]

Which is why I said it doesn't matter.

...then why even bother to continue laying down that point was what I was implying.

 

[Letterbomb]

Does it really change too much?

Or maybe.. barely ever and it's not hard at all to keep up on, especially when people let you know?

You are behind the times by at least 2 decades by the way referring to people as "Orientals".. it's not some epic racist offense in most people's minds, just something you avoid saying.. which someone.. taught you.

Instead of just learning something and moving on, you get angry.. why?

Huh? Who says I'm angry? I'm not angry. I wasn't angry at my coworker for correcting me today. I'm only frustrated with the impossibility of keeping active with political correctness. And, mind you, the black vs. African-American bit has come up at least 10 times this past year alone. Most of those situations I remember verbatim too. It's just frustrating is all. I even disclaimed in my post that I was just venting.

 

[MormaPope]

Work isn't a social playground where you test racial waters by saying really weird bigoted shit.

 

[Camp Lo]

Huh? Who says I'm angry? I'm not angry. I wasn't angry at my coworker for correcting me today. I'm only frustrated with the impossibility of keeping active with political correctness. And, mind you, the black vs. African-American bit has come up at least 10 times this past year alone. Most of those situations I remember verbatim too. It's just frustrating is all. I even disclaimed in my post that I was just venting.

With the same person(s) or different people? You were corrected at least 10 separate times on whether to say black or AA?

 

[riotous]

Huh? Who says I'm angry?

"Fuck being politically correct"

"What the fuck""

"just had to vent."

These are words of anger.. and I'm out of this convo. Impossibility of keeping active with political correctness? LOL I can see this would be a lesson in frustration myself, so good day sir.

 

[Camp Lo]

"Fuck being politically correct"

"What the fuck""

These are words of anger.. and I'm out of this convo. Impossibility of keeping active with political correctness? LOL I can see this would be a lesson in frustration myself, so good day sir.

I'm amazed by that too.

 

[freeofgreed]

Huh? Who says I'm angry? I'm not angry. I wasn't angry at my coworker for correcting me today. I'm only frustrated with the impossibility of keeping active with political correctness. And, mind you, the black vs. African-American bit has come up at least 10 times this past year alone. Most of those situations I remember verbatim too. It's just frustrating is all. I even disclaimed in my post that I was just venting.

Lol it's not that hard, and if you do slip up just apologize, learn and move on. Some people may be assholes about it but that's just humanity in general. Also Gotdatmoney has already perfectly explain the whole AA vs black thing, so I don't know why you're still talking about it.

 

[MormaPope]

With the same person(s) or different people? You were corrected at least 10 separate times on whether to say black or AA?

I'll never get the weird apprehension to call black people, black people. I have never ever in my life heard somebody refer to another American as European American socially.

 

[Sch1sm]

You know, before I quit we used to throw some racist jokes here and there in my office but they were just that, jokes. No one got offended because we did it all in good fun and we knew each other very well. If she was really serious about the whole thing and kept acting like an idiot in the open, well then she had it coming if she gets fired.

The woman meant it lightheartedly to begin with, but then she defended it all when the OP commented. So it'll most definitely be the latter. Read below:

I tell L she shouldn't say things like that, and that she is wrong when she groups people like that and think all of them are bad for her daughter. She says that as a parent she has a right over who her daughter is dating and she doesn't want "Jive talking guy from the south side (Chicago) hanging around with her daughter!"

 

[DoktorEvil]

I bet you if a black coworker heard her and called her a "racist bitch". The people defending the ol racist lady wouldn't have any problems with that black employee being canned ASAP.

Yeah... the OP never said her race tho. You sound like the racist TBH, implying that I wouldn't be consistent with my reasoning.

argue all you want, but it is not the job of HR to "fix" broken employees. It's the job of HR to remove said employees when they cause a problem, and make sure the company's ass is covered via documentation.

In my case during onboarding all of this is covered several times. "harassment or discrimination on sexual, racial, political etc grounds is not tolerated and is grounds for termination." There is no room for "I didn't know being a racist is wrong". If you somehow managed to avoid catching up to the rest of society over the past several decades then you're not someone who should be employed. I'll hire someone who isn't an idiot, other racists will learn to keep that shit to themselves, and make all of our lives easier.

HR's job is to protect the company's interests. It's in the company's interests to not have bigots on the payroll.

your error here is thinking that it's HR's job to "teach" diversity and inclusion. It isn't. It's there to enforce it. It's not my job to teach you not to be racist any more than it's my job to teach you not to be an alcoholic, or not to steal from us. My job is to make you aware of the policy (which in the case of blatant racism is redundant imho) and enforce it. edit: every employee in my facility has about 40+ hours of state mandated training to complete every year. None of it is designed to teach you to not be racist, or not sexually harass employees. The reason why is because this shit should be obvious to anyone that's learned to walk upright. if I have to spend five minutes "teaching" you that racism and sexism are wrong, then you don't belong here.

and the federal government did this by bringing the hammer down on those who weren't compliant. When the governor of alabama blocked black kids from going to school he didn't get a written warning or a stern talking to, he got the national guard on his doorstep to show the feds weren't fucking around.

someone with poor judgement, which is another reason not to keep her around.

I guess so. I guess then it makes very little business sense to pay so much money for all of these HR safeguards to protect business interests and at the same time, enact zero tolerance on the same people who clearly need the training.

What bothers me more is that she was allowed into the company before finding out she harbored those sentiments.

 

[Letterbomb]

With the same person(s) or different people? You were corrected at least 10 separate times on whether to say black or AA?

Different people. Some complete strangers.

"Fuck being politically correct"

"What the fuck""

"just had to vent."

These are words of anger.. and I'm out of this convo. Impossibility of keeping active with political correctness? LOL I can see this would be a lesson in frustration myself, so good day sir.

You can interpret them as "words of anger" however much you want, but that doesn't decide my emotions. I'm not angry. I'm frustrated. Words used can be intense. Are you not used to cussing? Cussing is used to express a wide range of emotions, not just anger. Venting is usually directly paired with frustration too moreover anger. I'm not getting why you're as confused as you are.

Also Gotdatmoney has already perfectly explain the whole AA vs black thing, so I don't know why you're still talking about it.

You seem to keep pipping up about my discussing this topic. As long as people keep quoting me and asking me questions and commenting on things, I'll be doing the same, because this is a discussion topic. Make sense?

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yeah... the OP never said her race tho. You sound like the racist TBH, implying that I wouldn't be consistent with my reasoning.

lolwut?

I'd like to see both of them fired if the situation escalated to insults and slanders being thrown to and from each other. But that's not the situation. The situation is that an employee made an idle comment to lighten the mood. It was offensive, but not intentionally harmful. Action SHOULD be taken, but not to the extent that people are saying here. The action should be a sit down with HR--putting the HR department to good use, doing what's it's meant to do--and a verbal warning that termination is the consequence of repeated offense.

Or instead of firing them for insults and slanders being thrown we can put them in sensitivity training. Cause you know think about their families!

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Yeah it's not about her, it's about how uncomfortable she made other people.

Everything that she has done or not done prior to this incident negates any goodwill and if a manager has to choose her or a stable workplace, you bet her ass is gone.

But then why pay tens of thousands of dollars a month for HR, which includes insurance policies designed to prevent wrongful lawsuits against the company & diversity/sensitivity training manuals, when it's not going to be used in the first place or to discipline employees? Businesses have a social obligation as well if it conflicts with their business goals.

Like I said, a proper HR department will make it's standards known. It will integrate training it feels is essential for its employees to have on an appropriate time line. HR doesn't exist to reform people, it exists to protect the best interests of the company and the companies properly performing employees. HR does more than dish out some classes to open racists, I think you're underestimating the work someone in HR in a medium to large size company actually does. Businesses do not give a shit about social obligations, businesses give a shit about productivity and profit. Both these things are going to be put in jeopardy when you have an employee making others feel uncomfortable for their religious or ethnic backgrounds which have 0 relevance to the work environment.

The business didn't hire me because I'm not a racist, they don't give a shit if I'm racist behind closed doors, they hired me to make them money. I'm going to have a problem doing that when my colleague doesn't look at me with respect. That's why businesses should not coddle racists. If you believe the business has a social obligation to accommodate the racist and not their hard working employee who didn't do anything wrong, I think you're in the wrong.

 

[Carnby]

Except OP wasn't the one to bring the matter up with HR.

Good.Then OP is in the clear from making career mistake.

 

[freeofgreed]

You seem to keep pipping up about my discussing this topic. As long as people keep quoting me and asking me questions and commenting on things, I'll be doing the same, because this is a discussion topic. Make sense?

What are you even talking about. You said you were going to stop posting and I referenced that once. The part you just quoted was me talking about the AA vs black thing which is something that has already been explained to you. Despite this, you continue to bring it up which is really holding back the conversation. You can keep posting all you want but we're never going to get any where if you keep bringing up things we've already moved past from.

 

[Manmademan]

I guess so. I guess then it makes very little business sense to pay so much money for all of these HR safeguards to protect business interests and at the same time, enact zero tolerance on the same people who clearly need the training.

Let's be clear here. when I hire you to do a job, it's with the understanding that you have certain basic abilities. I shouldn't have to teach you proper hygiene. I shouldn't have to "teach" you not to shoot heroin in the bathroom. I shouldn't have to "teach" you not to sleep on the job, or show up when you're supposed to. I shouldn't have to "teach" you to not be openly racist to employees and customers. These things are understood.

In the highly unlikely event that it's not, we have written policies that I make you aware of at the point of hire. If for any reason you disagree with "don't be openly racist, don't discriminate, or you will be fired" THAT is the point where you can opt out. You sign on that line and agree? then your ass is mine when you break the rules.

Work is not elementary school. Work is not your parent. Work is not PBS, Sesame Street, or Mr. Rogers. If you haven't learned the basics of being a human being by adulthood it is not my job to instruct you, and I am not going to have you on my payroll.

What bothers me more is that she was allowed into the company before finding out she harbored those sentiments.

I've done a lot of interviews, and I can honestly say "Just how racist am I allowed to be during work hours" has never come up as a question from a potential candidate.

 

[FStop7]

Pretty vile comments, and probably terminable. Someone who says something like that likely can't be trusted to not be bigoted when it comes to hiring decisions, promotions, reviews, etc. She's a liability.

 

[Xcellere]

HR has the opportunity here to administer training that it pays a lot of money for and it's a waste not to attempt to administer training before possibly canning her.

When Tobey Macguire was your avatar, it was a visual flag to take any words that followed it as passive aggressive double-talk, and restrained just enough to avoid being banned while conveying how hateful you really are. You cover yourself by saying she should be fired, but then you betray that opinion by stating she should be given a second chance and be rehabilitated.

You at least have the good sense to try and explain away your hatred as well-intentioned advice, Letterbomb on the other hand apparently isn't capable of masking the truth and just lets his ignorance fly unfiltered.

But at least have the decency to cut the pretense and just speak how you really feel.

 

[Letterbomb]

Or instead of firing them for insults and slanders being thrown we can put them in sensitivity training. Cause you know think about their families!

Boy, you sure love to ignore the point we're making, don't you? Severity of the offense should directly dictate the severity of the consequence. Intent is key on that. Two people purposefully abusing each other with insults and slanders? Fire both. One person idly making a comment that wasn't purposefully made to hurt another, yet was offensive anyhow? The latter is exactly what you'd define as "insensitive". Yes, sensitivity training is the appropriate response to that.

 

[freeofgreed]

Yeah... the OP never said her race tho. You sound like the racist TBH, implying that I wouldn't be consistent with my reasoning.

lol was surprised it took this long.

 

[Jonnax]

I'd like to see both of them fired if the situation escalated to insults and slanders being thrown to and from each other. But that's not the situation. The situation is that an employee made an idle comment to lighten the mood. It was offensive, but not intentionally harmful. Action SHOULD be taken, but not to the extent that people are saying here. The action should be a sit down with HR--putting the HR department to good use, doing what's it's meant to do--and a verbal warning that termination is the consequence of repeated offense.

An idle racist comment. That's the problem here. It doesn't matter what the context is. What is person said essentially is "I dislike Blacks and Jews" at work. That's not something to just laugh off.

Consider this, what about the rest of the workforce? How would a black or jewish worker at this company feel if they heard that this person just got a stern talking to as a result? And it doesn't matter if some people in that group doesn't care or mind, the job of HR is to prevent a hostile work environment.

In my opinion a good workplace is one where everyone is and feels equal. By letting someone get away with being discriminatory like that changes this.

 

[MHWilliams]

See, I wouldn't argue with someone if they said, "Will you call me African American over black?" But the thing is, that never happens. Here's what happens:

"So, this one black guy I knew..."
"THAT'S RACIST!"
"What? What should I have said?"
"YOU'RE RACIST AMG DON'T MAKE EXCUSES."

The moment someone labels you a racist in their mind, it's over. There's no arguing, discussion, or clarification. Just idiocy.

That's your normal? With every black person you've met? Most of them?

Let me say it like it is: Bullshit.

 

[freeofgreed]

Boy, you sure love to ignore the point we're making, don't you? Severity of the offense should directly dictate the severity of the consequence. Intent is key on that. Two people purposefully abusing each other with insults and slanders? Fire both. One person idly making a comment that wasn't purposefully made to hurt another, yet was offensive anyhow? The later is exactly what you'd define as "insensitive". Yes, sensitivity training is the appropriate response to that.

Why do you get to decide the severity levels? Just going by this thread alone plenty of people think what she said was severe enough to get fired, so why should we go by your definition of "severity"? Not to say your definition is any less valid, but most of the consensus is leaning towards "she should be fired".

 

[Manmademan]

Boy, you sure love to ignore the point we're making, don't you? Severity of the offense should directly dictate the severity of the consequence. Intent is key on that. Two people purposefully abusing each other with insults and slanders? Fire both. One person idly making a comment that wasn't purposefully made to hurt another, yet was offensive anyhow? The later is exactly what you'd define as "insensitive". Yes, sensitivity training is the appropriate response to that.

Laughable.

Sensitivity training will not teach bigots to not be racist. At best it makes the behavior harder to detect.

I already know you're racist and have a problem with minorities, so why should i invest time and money into "instructing" you? How many hours and instructors am I supposed to waste on this? Where are the funds for that coming from? who is doing your job when you're sitting in a classroom for a week watching videos designed for six year olds? Firing you and hiring someone who isn't an idiot is cheaper for me and wastes less of the company's time.

No, the appropriate response is to eliminate the problem when that issue makes itself known. That way employees have no fear of retaliation, and no fear that their abuser is going to be hanging around, waiting for 3 or 4 more "warnings" before appropriate action is taken.

 

[Letterbomb]

An idle racist comment. That's the problem here. It doesn't matter what the context is. What is person said essentially is "I dislike Blacks and Jews" at work. That's not something to just laugh off.

Consider this, what about the rest of the workforce? How would a black or jewish worker at this company feel if they heard that this person just got a stern talking to as a result? And it doesn't matter if some people in that group doesn't care or mind, the job of HR is to prevent a hostile work environment.

In my opinion a good workplace is one where everyone is and feels equal. By letting someone get away with being discriminatory like that changes this.

A fair enough point to raise. But that's why there are steps to take in consequential actions. If the woman in the OP is able to realize and act on the fact that her racist way of thinking isn't appropriate in the workplace, why shouldn't she be allowed to continue working? Assuming there were no other problems with her work ethic, her performance, etc.

Why do you get to decide the severity levels? Just going by this thread alone plenty of people think what she said was severe enough to get fired, so why should we go by your definition of "severity"? Not to say your definition is any less valid, but most of the consensus is leaning towards "she should be fired".

Majority opinions is never a valid argument to make. The majority of Germans sided with Hitler in WW2. Did that make his ideology correct? This is EXACTLY why denotation is higher valued than connotation.

 

[Carnby]

An idle racist comment. That's the problem here. It doesn't matter what the context is. What is person said essentially is "I dislike Blacks and Jews" at work. That's not something to just laugh off.

Consider this, what about the rest of the workforce? How would a black or jewish worker at this company feel if they heard that this person just got a stern talking to as a result? And it doesn't matter if some people in that group doesn't care or mind, the job of HR is to prevent a hostile work environment.

In my opinion a good workplace is one where everyone is and feels equal. By letting someone get away with being discriminatory like that changes this.

Letterbomb is right. What he/she said is exactly what's going to happen. Then the person who told HR is going to be labeled as a snitch and ignored by a good portion of the coworkers. They shouldn't even think about ever being promoted, and they shouldn't bother complaining to HR about the way they are treated. There won't be any evidence to take action.

I learned this the hard way myself. I was lwft with no choice but to leave the company.

 

[DoktorEvil]

lolwut?

Or instead of firing them for insults and slanders being thrown we can put them in sensitivity training. Cause you know think about their families!

You heard me. Rusty never indicated L's race. Why are you so quick to throw the "but if she was black" out there dismissing my argument?

It doesn't matter who said it, it was still said in a workplace. It still makes people uncomfortable, especially in a diverse workplace.

I just want to know and understand why HR even has all of this training and manuals specifically designed to fight this shit and not use it.

Like I said, a proper HR department will make it's standards known. It will integrate training it feels is essential for its employees to have on an appropriate time line. HR doesn't exist to reform people, it exists to protect the best interests of the company and the companies properly performing employees. HR does more than dish out some classes to open racists, I think you're underestimating the work someone in HR in a medium to large size company actually does. Businesses do not give a shit about social obligations, businesses give a shit about productivity and profit. Both these things are going to be put in jeopardy when you have an employee making others feel uncomfortable for their religious or ethnic backgrounds which have 0 relevance to the work environment.

The business didn't hire me because I'm not a racist, they don't give a shit if I'm racist behind closed doors, they hired me to make them money. I'm going to have a problem doing that when my colleague doesn't look at me with respect. That's why businesses should not coddle racists. If you believe the business has a social obligation to accommodate the racist and not their hard working employee who didn't do anything wrong, I think you're in the wrong.

Maybe I am underestimating what the true job of HR should be, but then why have it in the first place? Payrolls are rarely managed by HR departments anymore.

I'm not defending racism in the workplace, I'm arguing that in order to stamp it out when it comes up, that same HR training should be used practically.

 

[riotous]

That's your normal? With every black person you've met? Most of them?

Let me say it like it is: Bullshit.

Keep in mind this is a guy who calls people Orientals in 2014.

Combine that with his behavior in this thread (rampant ignorance and intellectual dishonesty) and I doubt it's "bullshit."

He probably says really uncomfortable things about race all the time... people like that make other people's skin crawl and they might overreact to every little thing he says. But they are the problem, not him.

 

[freeofgreed]

A fair enough point to raise. But that's why there are steps to take in consequential actions. If the woman in the OP is able to realize and act on the fact that her racist way of thinking isn't appropriate in the workplace, why shouldn't she be allowed to continue working? Assuming there were no other problems with her work ethic, her performance, etc.

Like myself and so many others have said, it is highly improbably that sensitivity training will be able to change any of this woman's views.

 

[Order]

A fair enough point to raise. But that's why there are steps to take in consequential actions. If the woman in the OP is able to realize and act on the fact that her racist way of thinking isn't appropriate in the workplace, why shouldn't she be allowed to continue working? Assuming there were no other problems with her work ethic, her performance, etc.

Because no one wants to work with a racist. Everyone knows how she really feels now, she can hide her views better but she's already outted herself.

 

[Camp Lo]

Letterbomb is right. What he/she said is exactly what's going to happen. Then the person who told HR is going to be labeled as a snitch and ignored by a good portion of the coworkers. They shouldn't even think about ever being promoted, and they shouldn't bother complaining to HR about the way. There won't be any evidence to take action.

I learned this the hard way myself. I was lwft with no choice but to leave the company.

The manager's going to be labeled a snitch? Were you a manager at your previous job where this happened?

 

[Letterbomb]

The manager's going to be labeled a snitch?

OP isn't the manager. Like so many of you keep missing.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Boy, you sure love to ignore the point we're making, don't you? Severity of the offense should directly dictate the severity of the consequence. Intent is key on that. Two people purposefully abusing each other with insults and slanders? Fire both. One person idly making a comment that wasn't purposefully made to hurt another, yet was offensive anyhow? The latter is exactly what you'd define as "insensitive". Yes, sensitivity training is the appropriate response to that.

"Firing" the black worker is in poor taste. They were literally just shamed by their coworker for something they could not control, their race. It's not a choice to be born black. It's a choice to be racist. I don't go to work to be made out to be worthless, if I act in poor taste because my coworker just inferred I'm unworthy of her white daughter, I'm not going to take that well.

Now you want to fire me because I didn't take that well? There is no planet in which "I don't want my daughter marrying jews or blacks" is not an inflammatory statement. It's grossly negligent to state something like that and act like a black or jewish person is not going to feel some type of way about it. You don't need sensitivity training, you need to leave because no one is going to be comfortable working with you after that regardless of what HR does.

 

[Devolution]

Feel sorry for the people who have to work with the devil's advocates who'd want to keep someone on the team who alienates their fellow employees.

lol at fire both.

Learn to deal with racism and sexism on the job by hushing up about it. I wonder who that serves.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Boy, you sure love to ignore the point we're making, don't you? Severity of the offense should directly dictate the severity of the consequence. Intent is key on that. Two people purposefully abusing each other with insults and slanders? Fire both. One person idly making a comment that wasn't purposefully made to hurt another, yet was offensive anyhow? The later is exactly what you'd define as "insensitive". Yes, sensitivity training is the appropriate response to that.

Firing both is just being lazy. They have families to feed so we shouldn't be so quick to fire them (which is the counter argument so many people here are using). We need to look into what started the issue in the first place (read: the racist).

It'd be better to fire the racist and teach the person who responded to the racism that in the future it's better to go to HR than direct confrontation but give them a pass because most people should be able to sympathize with how they felt at that moment. Why should someone who is clearly offended at a fucking racist inflammatory statement be terminated? If I were HR, I would be more concerned about making sure the offended party feels welcomed. I don't give two fucks about coddling some old racist lady. But it doesn't matter because the situation is hypothetical anyways.

What is sensitivity training going to do? Make sure she doesn't say it out loud anymore? Make her atone and change her ways? The work atmosphere is still going to be toxic because now everyone knows how she feels about blacks and Jews. I imagine for any black and/or Jewish employees it's going to be very weird working around her. I sure as shit wouldn't want to work around her; in fact I'd be in HR's office demanding she get fired.

Any competent HR department would either move her to another site if her work abilities are worth it or fire her.

 

[freeofgreed]

You heard me. Rusty never indicated L's race. Why are you so quick to throw the "but if she was black" out there dismissing my argument?

Because it is highly improbable that a black woman would say she wouldn't want her child to date a black person, and even more improbable that she would say "Hey you gotta be careful who you let in your family!" which wouldn't make sense for her not wanting blacks in her family if she herself was black.

 

[Camp Lo]

OP isn't the manager. Like so many of you keep missing.

OP wasn't the one who told, his friend, the indirect manager was the one who told... What are you talking about?

Me, her (lets call her L) and another coworker (lets call him R) were in a meeting. L is a 50 something from northern Michigan. After working for a bit, L started talking about her daughter. It was not unusual. You want to lighten the mood/pressure from work every now and then. Her daughter started dating someone from Europe. Me and R were like Good for her etc.

And then it comes, "My mom has two cardinal rules on dating: No blacks and and no Jews!". Me and R stare at each other with our eyes widened and mouh agape for a good 10 seconds. She thinks its funny and continues on "Hey you gotta be careful who you let in your family!" Now R is an indirect manager. He gets up and excuses himself out and informs the higher ups. I tell L she shouldnt say things like that, and that she is wrong when she groups people like that and think all of them are bad for her daughter. She says that as a parent she has a right over who her daughter is dating and she doesn't want "Jive talking guy from the south side (Chicago) hanging around with her daughter!". I tell her she shouldnt judge people like that and that its racist. She is oblivious to how screwed up she is, both mentally and job-wise.

Anyway, the HR are on it and I spoke to them.

What am I missing here?

 

[Carnby]

The manager's going to be labeled a snitch? Were you a manager at your previous job where this happened?

Maybe. Just maybe that will change the results. But not likely.

Edit; the more i think about it, this will still end worse for the indirect manager.

 

[Letterbomb]

OP wasn't the one who told, his friend, the indirect manager was the one who told... What are you talking about?

The "indirect manager" told "the higher ups", presumably meaning the direct manager(s) of the woman. OP HIMSELF told HR. When people are talking about being labeled a snitch for going to HR, they're talking about OP. Not that that point matters really. I think OP was right to go to HR for this. That's what HR is for.

I harbor no ill will towards anyone, but obviously you have an issue with me. Why don't you take it up via PM instead of shitting up the thread?

Lots of people here calling each other "hateful" and "ignorant" for openly discussing their views. Geez. This is exactly why I wish debate class was mandatory in high school lmao. None of you know how to properly argue. =/

 

[Manmademan]

Maybe I am underestimating what the true job of HR should be, but then why have it in the first place? Payrolls are rarely managed by HR departments anymore.

I'm not defending racism in the workplace, I'm arguing that in order to stamp it out when it comes up, that same HR training should be used practically.

You clearly are. Payroll is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what we do. Hell, there are three managers and one director and none of us do payroll at all. We farm that off to assistants and clerk typists.

The HR Training that I do (as head of training! hello!) is designed to make sure everyone has sufficient instruction to get their job done, as well as give us legal coverage when shit hits the fan.

Joe Asshole in D block decides to try to incite a riot and gets beaten down for it? He's likely going to try to sue.

When that happens, I need to whip out documentation that Officers Harry, Moe, And Curley who beat the shit out of him were not only informed of the excessive force policy (they were), but trained yearly on proper techniques and procedures (they are) and if they crossed a line then that liability is on them, and not the state, and they can defend themselves in court and the state is off the hook. If termination is required as a result then we need to coordinate with legal to make sure we have a proper paper trail and can terminate them with prejudice.

And I need to do this for over 1000 people, all with different classifications. Someone screws up in medical and dies on our watch? then I need to ensure that doctor or nurse is up to date on their certifications, instructions, and training so we can fend off malpractice suits.

And even THAT'S only a fraction of my workday. I don't have time to sit people in class to train them how to be decent human beings. Training costs money, and I prefer to spend that time on things that are critical, not things you should have learned in third grade.

 

[riotous]

Maybe. Just maybe that will change the results. But not likely.

There are entirely different cultures at different companies. or within one company at different regional offices.

Sometimes you end up with shitty culture that would label people "snitches".. but it's not as widespread as you seem to be assuming.

I can say that with decent confidence as I've consulted at numerous companies in my career.. sat in on a lot of random ass "employee meetings" (despite being a contractor sometimes you have to sit in on lots of HR type trainings and meetings that don't apply to you)..

At most large companies you would have TONS of recourse for instance if the group treated you like a "snitch" afterwards. You could raise THAT as an issue and they would likely move you somewhere for you to be more comfortable and reprimand those who treated you like a "snitch."

At small to medium companies... things have much more variety, and yeah.. if everyone there is a racist D-bag you might end up getting alienated.

But the OP would know his own work culture better than you, and he isn't indicating any worry for the manager thinking he's going to get a negative label.

 

[DoktorEvil]

When Tobey Macguire was your avatar, it was a visual flag to take any words that followed it as passive aggressive double-talk, and restrained just enough to avoid being banned while conveying how hateful you really are. You cover yourself by saying she should be fired, but then you betray that opinion by stating she should be given a second chance and be rehabilitated.

You at least have the good sense to try and explain away your hatred as well-intentioned advice, Letterbomb on the other hand apparently isn't capable of masking the truth and just lets his ignorance fly unfiltered.

But at least have the decency to cut the pretense and just speak how you really feel.

I asked questions and got more info.

But sure, please tell me how I feel. You obviously know what I'm thinking 24/7. Please tell me how I should think too.

I harbor no ill will towards anyone, but obviously you have an issue with me. Why don't you take it up via PM instead of shitting up the thread?

lol was surprised it took this long.

He has to answer my question. He's dismissing my argument by telling me what I think. That's wasn't a general statement he made.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

Letterbomb is right. What he/she said is exactly what's going to happen. Then the person who told HR is going to be labeled as a snitch and ignored by a good portion of the coworkers. They shouldn't even think about ever being promoted, and they shouldn't bother complaining to HR about the way they are treated. There won't be any evidence to take action.

I learned this the hard way myself. I was lwft with no choice but to leave the company.

The person who went to HR was in a manager position though. If I saw someone say something like that, I would contact my HR department and my immediate supervisors.

 

[Angelus Errare]

You heard me. Rusty never indicated L's race. Why are you so quick to throw the "but if she was black" out there dismissing my argument?

lolwut? Your reading comprehension is borderline remedial levels. I never said "if L was black".

It doesn't matter who said it, it was still said in a workplace. It still makes people uncomfortable, especially in a diverse workplace.

Yea no shit, it especially makes black and Jewish co-workers uncomfortable. Their comfort and feelings > feelings of some racist.

I just want to know and understand why HR even has all of this training and manuals specifically designed to fight this shit and not use it.

It's not HR's job to make one see how bad it is to be racist in 2014. But by firing her she'll learn that lesson so...HR should fire her. That way the workplace won't be toxic and she can reflect on what got her fired and do some soul searching. And soul searching takes time...which she'll have plenty of if she's fired.

 

[ishibear]

Yeah, fire her ass. Racism needs to be dealt with as harshly as possible.

 

[Camp Lo]

The "indirect manager" told "the higher ups", presumably meaning the direct manager(s) of the woman. OP HIMSELF told HR. When people are talking about being labeled a snitch for going to HR, they're talking about OP. Not that that point matters really. I think OP was right to go to HR for this. That's what HR is for.

He didn't tell on her, he just confirmed what happened actually happened. He didn't go to HR, HR went to him. Oh boy...

I didn't rat her out. R informed the higher ups, and I just confirmed what happened. Do you rather I deny what she said?

To be fair, I did not call up HR. I don't want to take the credit for R's actions. He was the one who immediately informed the higher ups, like, probably within 2-3 minutes of it happening. HR through their investigation reached me over the phone and I talked to them about it.