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[Cindi Mayweather]

I didn't grow up on Star Trek. Actually, I did and I didn't. I didn't "get" Star Trek as a kid. I watched the final episode of TNG with my dad, but I was 7 or 8 at the time, but my main introductions to the series was DS9 and especially Voyager. Voyager aired when I was 10 years old, and by the time it hit its stride I was a teenager and able to enjoy it. I watched it every week with my dad, and yet I can't remember a thing about it except that Neelix sucks.

So I've been on a journey. To explore new worlds and life forms.

It's been years in the making because there's just too fucking much Star Trek to consume.

I watched the original series and then later all of its movies. I thought it was largely fantastic despite some misses. I think all of the VI films are worth watching. Even when TOS got repetitive, I still enjoy it and what it had to say. Even routine episodes like The Man Trap are absolute fun adventures for me.

My favorite part of Trek is, on top of the philosophical elements, the way they interact with alien cultures and the prime directive.

I've been watching TNG the past two or so years. I go on and off on it because it's so varied in terms of quality and in a lot of ways is kind of boring and it barely has any of what I described: exploring to uncover new alien civilizations and the philosophies that come from that.

Sometimes it's a good kind of boring. Sometimes it's a really, really bad boring.

I think I probably ultimately prefer the original. It's not that TNG is bad - it's actually really good. It's just not as philosophical or interesting to me.

One problem with Trek I've got so far is that both are far too episodic. Nothing ultimately matters in these shows - especially TNG. What happens one episode doesn't carry over into the next and it gets highly repetitive. In the past few days of marathoning season 6 I've noticed just how sterile this shit is. Almost every character has a love interest that promises to wait for them elsewhere. Worf has a new love interest in the episode where he finds the "camp" of Klingons 'imprisoned" by the Romulans. Picard finds a new love in the pianist he meets. Deanna has Riker 2. Geordie has that one chick. I'm expecting Riker 1 to have one by the end of the season. Hell, let's set up Data with a cyborg?

Another issue is the repetition of storylines. One episode tells of the cloning of Kahless. Let's have the next episode deal directly with a cloned Riker! Just plodding. Repetitive. Episodic. Nothing fucking matters. Zero character development. Zero tension. At least TOS had Bones and Spock going at it. How many episodes of Troi's mom am I going to have to suffer through? Nothing is ever at stake on this show. It's fucking boring.

One noticeable thing is that TNG feels less diverse than TOS, despite its far more PC and egalitarian tone. TOS also pushed the envelope more. First interracial kiss on tv. All of the minority characters in TNG are pushed to the background. Geordi is in engineering. The only other character played by a black actor is an alien. Ensign Roh rarely shows up after her amazing introduction episode.

The one best constant in TNG? Worf. Worf has development from episode to episode, season to season. His storylines transfer as well. He first had trouble dealing with the fact he's had a son. Now he's a trying father. I loved the episode where Alexander takes him into the Holodeck for the wild west because it showed just how far he came, and just how much he's willing to open his mind to new experiences as a new dad. I love Worf and Klingon episodes the most. The Federation is boring as fuck, but Klingon's and gagh and their mating rituals and their politics and their feuds and drama, and fuck yes.

Compared to Worf, the rest of the cast are kind of shit. Even Picard. Picard lays waste to thousands of people as a Borg. Let's tie that storyline up with a pretty bow with only one episode and not let him have ptsd for entire seasons. Let's just forget it ever fucking happened. Doc Crusher, I like her but, why does she have any reason to exist on the show? Troi and Riker's storyline is dumb. They love each other! Except they have zero chemistry. It took me a long time to even be able to stomach Troi. "He's feeling agitated" No shit, Troi. I think giving her an actual uniform helped. Geordi? I wonder what awkward thing he's going to do next? "Another Coco-no-no?"

I was really disappointed with season 6. I thought season 5, the cast finally started to click together. Darmok, Inner Light, Cost of Living, I, Borg. It had the philosophical episodes of Trek that I adore. I liked every episode of that season, even the one where Wesley and his friends play some weird ass game because I know it'd be awesome to watch if I were high. I loved season 5. Especially after 4, which I couldn't stand besides a few stand outs. Now I'm back to not being able to stand it. I'm at the tail end of season 6 and I don't think I can stomach season 7. I want to dive into DS9. For all of the amazing highs of this show, it is full of absolute filler and pointless tedium. Way beyond even season 2 contrary to what everyone says.

As it is, if I were to recommend this show to anyone I'd suggest they only watch seasons 3 and 5. Either that or just watch its best episodes and skip the show entirely and watch BSG reboot instead. It touches on what makes TNG's best episodes so good without having repetitive non-related storylines with zero plot or character development and does the "what is human, really?" thing in a much better manner through the use of the Cylon 5.

As such, an article that convinced me to dive into DS9 without finishing TNG summarizes TNG as this that encapsulates all of my issues with it:

I find The Next Generation aesthetically ugly and sterile, the absolute definition of nerdiness. It's characters annoy me (yes, even Picard), and my visits to its world (probably about a season's worth of random episodes and three of its four feature films) make me feel like someone tricked me into sitting through a church service. I hate it. Star Trek: The Next Generation's favorite snack is Graham Crackers. It tucks its shirt into its jeans without wearing a belt. It wears Crocks WITH socks. It is an adult with braces.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2013/05...-deep-space-nine-is-hard-to-love-but-worth-it

It wouldn't be such an issue if there weren't so much potential at stake here. As it is, the new Star Trek series needs to dramatically change its structure and the pretension that surrounds the TNG series' in order to survive in today's tv climate.

This thread will be used for continual updates on my journey through DS9. I originally posted this in the Star Trek general thread, but that thread is full of spoilers and people unwilling to spoiler tag 20 year old tv shows, and why should they?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Watched the first few episodes of Deep Space Nine. I found the writing in the pilot somewhat clunky but all of the pieces are there. The following episodes even further give the Bajoran and Cardassian conflict depth. I'm finding all of the characters interesting and refreshing after wading through TNG tedium for years. It's also refreshing to have such a whimsical medical officer.

The character based drama is everything I've been wanting to have in my Star Trek since finishing TOS. I'm glad I'm finally getting it.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I don't get it. For years people said to skip DS9's first two seasons. That it was slow and dull. But I've been watching for hours, straight marathoning, unable to not want to watch the next episode and I'm on season 1.

This is much better than TNG season 1 and the majority of 2 as well. The dialogue is much less awkward and more natural. It's also more insightful ("I want you to try to be more comfortable with your discomfort") or comedic without coming off as cheesy ("You've never coupled?" "...Klingon opera..."). You get to see cultures interact in DS9, and that's what Trek is all about. The actors are also showing more chemistry than anyone ever had in TNG, which always felt forced. And this is the first season. I can only imagine how good this gets later on.

Slow doesn't necessarily mean bad so long as there's worthwhile content to make the journey worth experiencing, and I can tell already that I am in for a ride with DS9.

 

[explodet]

I still don't get why people say skip S1 of DS9. It may have a clunker or two but it's also got one of the best episodes in the entire series.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I still don't get why people say skip S1 of DS9. It may have a clunker or two but it's also got one of the best episodes in the entire series.

Looking forward to it.

Why do people suggest to skip season 1?

 

[DarthWoo]

Even with a total lack of any sci-fi element to it, I've always found Duet to be one of my favorite episodes from the early DS9 seasons. I know its concept is ripped almost directly from a play based on Nazis in post WWII, but they just pulled it off so well, especially the actor playing the Cardie.

 

[jerry113]

I don't get it. For years people said to skip DS9's first two seasons. That it was slow and dull. But I've been watching for hours, straight marathoning, unable to not want to watch the next episode and I'm on season 1.

This is much better than TNG season 1 and the majority of 2 as well. The dialogue is much less awkward and more natural. It's also more insightful ("I want you to try to be more comfortable with your discomfort") or comedic without coming off as cheesy ("You've never coupled?" "...Klingon opera..."). You get to see cultures interact in DS9, and that's what Trek is all about. The actors are also showing more chemistry than anyone ever had in TNG, which always felt forced. And this is the first season. I can only imagine how good this gets later on.

Slow doesn't necessarily mean bad so long as there's worthwhile content to make the journey worth experiencing, and I can tell already that I am in for a ride with DS9.

Yeah one of the strengths of DS9 is that it focuses on a specific few alien cultures and develops them over time. The Cardassians and Bajorans and even the Ferengi are made much more interesting than they were initially depicted in TNG.

With the earlier series, there was a lot of planet hopping to different races that are never revisited again.

 

[DrForester]

DS9 is unique among all the Trek shows in that it takes full advantage of the entire cast. It also has a large supporting cast that it also uses effectively. Comparatively, all the other Trek shows focus on 3 or 4 characters, with the rest of the cast really just filling out role. Because of DS9's strong focus on character development, I don't suggest skipping anything.

I don't get it. For years people said to skip DS9's first two seasons. That it was slow and dull. But I've been watching for hours, straight marathoning, unable to not want to watch the next episode and I'm on season 1.

This is much better than TNG season 1 and the majority of 2 as well. The dialogue is much less awkward and more natural. It's also more insightful ("I want you to try to be more comfortable with your discomfort") or comedic without coming off as cheesy ("You've never coupled?" "...Klingon opera..."). You get to see cultures interact in DS9, and that's what Trek is all about. The actors are also showing more chemistry than anyone ever had in TNG, which always felt forced. And this is the first season. I can only imagine how good this gets later on.

DS9 has the strongest start of any of the shows. While it did take some time to get into the swing of things, they still managed some great stuff. I think the only major misstep in S1 of DS9 was Bashir. He was cast because it was Star Trek and you HAD to have a Doctor. Not to mention in S1 he was really insufferable. But he got better.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I like Bashir. He's a quirky, whimsical doctor. He's refreshing, at least so far. You have to understand that coming from TNG, any form of anyone having a personality at all is refreshing. When does my man Worf join the cast?

Character development and character drama are really important to me. I almost wish I didn't watch TNG and just watched DS9 instead, but I don't think I'd be able to appreciate DS9 without having watched TNG first.

 

[DrForester]

TNG has character development, just for some of the characters though.

DS9 though, EVERYONE goes through a change. And not just the main cast. It's strange to watch the DS9 pilot and see character like Rom and Nog and then realize what happened to them over the course of 7 seasons.

 

[water_wendi]

From what youve said about DS9 so far you are in for a real treat.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

TNG has character development, just for some of the characters though.

DS9 though, EVERYONE goes through a change. And not just the main cast. It's strange to watch the DS9 pilot and see character like Rom and Nog and then realize what happened to them over the course of 7 seasons.

Who on TNG besides Worf and Alexander has character development? I'll throw ROH into the bunch. Pretty much all of the main cast are in the same places they are at the beginning of season 7 as they were in the first episode.

Even Picard, after having lived a life time in the span of 20 minutes, or after being assimilated into the Borg.

 

[DrForester]

Who on TNG besides Worf has character development? Pretty much all of them are in the same places they are at the beginning of season 7 as they were in the first episode.

Even Picard, after having lived a life time in the span of 20 minutes, or after being assimilated into the Borg.

Picard is a lot more open and less stiff by the end of the series.

Riker is less arrogant and much more of a leader

Data, despite not getting emotions, it a lot more human by the end of the series.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Picard is a lot more open and less stiff by the end of the series.

Riker is less arrogant and much more of a leader

Data, despite not getting emotions, it a lot more human by the end of the series.

Do these developments happen in season 7?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

DS9 though, EVERYONE goes through a change. And not just the main cast. It's strange to watch the DS9 pilot and see character like Rom and Nog and then realize what happened to them over the course of 7 seasons.

Keiko goes from filler to being the station teacher. Just amazing.

 

[TheYanger]

Do these developments happen in season 7?

No, they happen slowly over the entire show. You can't watch Farpoint and any episode in season 6 and get the same vibe from any of them.

Still, DS9 will absolutely be more your cup of tea, and anyone recommending to skip seasons is a damn fool. It is at worst 'meh' in the first season, which is WAY better than the first seasons of TNG or Voyager or Enterprise which can be boring or downright offensively bad early on.

 

[kess]

TOS has real passion, which is why I can stomach even terrible episodes like The Way to Eden -- because underneath all that schlock there's a lot to relate to. TNG aspired to be much more, and in many ways, it is, but the universe in the original series is more tangible, mysterious, and chaotic.

One thing I could never stomach about late period TNG was Berman's insistence on thematic mood muzak.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

No, they happen slowly over the entire show. You can't watch Farpoint and any episode in season 6 and get the same vibe from any of them.

Still, DS9 will absolutely be more your cup of tea, and anyone recommending to skip seasons is a damn fool. It is at worst 'meh' in the first season, which is WAY better than the first seasons of TNG or Voyager or Enterprise which can be boring or downright offensively bad early on.

It seems more like a change in the series' direction than actual character development in the case of Riker and Picard. Especially Riker, the always smiling always brown nosing bore. Data I'll give you.

Thanks for giving further encouragement to not skip shit in DS9.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Looking forward to it.

Why do people suggest to skip season 1?

It's mainly because all the cool shit happens from S4 on wards but those people tend to forget that the reason that stuff is "cool" is because it was built up from the very start with S1. DS9 is the best Trek not only because it is written wonderfully and is more comfortable with pushing the boundaries on ST but also because it has a single threading narrative and takes the time to develop all of its characters, even the minor ones.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

My least favorite Star Trek episodes are the ones where there's a mysterious threat that risks all of the lives of the crew. Babel is so far the only weak link in the season 7 episodes in.

 

[DrForester]

My least favorite Star Trek episodes are the ones where there's a mysterious threat that risks all of the lives of the crew. Babel is so far the only weak link in the season 7 episodes in.

These are hit and miss for me, but I can say there's one episode like this in Season 3 that I really enjoy.

 

[HUELEN10]

Cindi, I cannot wait until you get into the current series. When the time comes, make sure you have TNG's Spock episodes fresh in your head, then read IDW Spock Reflections, IDW Countdown, and then immediately watch XI.

At least make sure you read Countodwn before XI, you will be doing yourself a tremendous disservice if you do not.

Glad you enjoyed all 6 TOS films.

 

[Man God]

Looking forward to it.

Why do people suggest to skip season 1?

Mainly because the first two seasons of Enterprise, Voyager, and Next Generation are considered skippable by lots. I take the good with the bad myself.

Season 1 of DS9 is perfectly fine besides the weird lighting. Its season 7 that's the disappointing one in that series.

 

[Cartman86]

lol that description of TNG is so right on and yet I love it so much anyways. I can't explain why. Maybe it really is a sort of religious experience. I wasn't either raised with it either. I had never seen a single episode or movie of Star Trek before I watched TNG at age 19.

 

[Man God]

Bashir is supposed to be really annoying. That's the character and its played almost too well. It's his relationship with everyman Miles and later development that

Spoiler

ironically

humanizes him.

 

[Polioliolio]

I used To casually enjoy the original series when aired on scifi channel, watching with my father.

Just a year or so ago, the original series was on Netflix, and I decided to give it all a watch. I really enjoyed it. It has great nostalgia with its simple sets and costumes, but the plots are still often engaging and the characters are a lot of fun. Season 3 went down hill, but has it's greats.. Anyway, I loved it.

Watched all the films based on the original series and enjoyed them.. Tried shifting into The Next Generation and just loathed it.

TNG movies are miserable as well. I mean, I love Picard, but no thanks to the whole package... I'll stick with the original series.

I did mildly enjoy the brand new films too.. Not great, but could be worse.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I used To casually enjoy the original series when aired on scifi channel, watching with my father.

Just a year or so ago, the original series was on Netflix, and I decided to give it all a watch. I really enjoyed it. It has great nostalgia with its simple sets and costumes, but the plots are still often engaging and the characters are a lot of fun. Season 3 went down hill, but has it's greats.. Anyway, I loved it.

Watched all the films based on the original series and enjoyed them.. Tried shifting into The Next Generation and just loathed it.

TNG movies are miserable as well. I mean, I love Picard, but no thanks to the whole package... I'll stick with the original series.

I did mildly enjoy the brand new films too.. Not great, but could be worse.

Try DS9 with me.

TNG has the exploration of TOS. Of course, it's never as good in that area.

DS9 seems to have the more character heavy exposition of TOS and so far has potential to top it in that category.

 

[JeffZero]

Effing subscribed. Star Trek defined my childhood and adolescence. Feel free to ask me anything that springs to mind, and enjoy the ride.

DS9 is my favorite. The ten-parter of a finale arc was my first real "event TV." I was eleven years old and my jaw was agape for months. I really enjoy introducing it to fellow IRL friends; always gives me excuse to take the plunge again!

 

[jb1234]

My least favorite Star Trek episodes are the ones where there's a mysterious threat that risks all of the lives of the crew. Babel is so far the only weak link in the season 7 episodes in.

Season 1 has a fair amount of TNG-lite episodes in it, ones where some technobabble is on the loose. But even at their weakest, the episodes are still more interesting than the ones in TNG because the cast is more interesting. From season 2 onwards, DS9 very much becomes its own show (even if it reboots its premise every few seasons or so).

 

[JeffZero]

Season 1 has a fair amount of TNG-lite episodes in it, ones where some technobabble is on the loose. But even at their weakest, the episodes are still more interesting than the ones in TNG because the cast is more interesting. From season 2 onwards, DS9 very much becomes its own show (even if it reboots its premise every few seasons or so).

Yeah. And then by 4 it's pretty impressively solid, and it gets more and more serialized with each passing season.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Season 1 has a fair amount of TNG-lite episodes in it, ones where some technobabble is on the loose. But even at their weakest, the episodes are still more interesting than the ones in TNG because the cast is more interesting. From season 2 onwards, DS9 very much becomes its own show (even if it reboots its premise every few seasons or so).

Yeah they have far better chemistry than TNG crew and I'm on season 6 finale of that series.

 

[squidyj]

Also DS9 has an infinitely superior theme that just keeps getting better through the seasons.

 

[Coffee Dog]

DS9 is the best Trek, its just a shame I would never recommend it before watching TNG (which is great, just not DS9).

 

[jb1234]

Also DS9 has an infinitely superior theme that just keeps getting better through the seasons.

To be fair to Goldsmith's theme, the TNG version of it is massively watered down. It sounds majestic and fucking amazing in Star Trek: TMP.

 

[butalala]

DS9 is the best Star Trek. I wish I could marathon it again (it would be my 4th time through). It is in many ways the perfect counterpoint/supplement to TNG, but it makes it nearly unwatchable in comparison, if you are interested in plot, characters, and so on. Have fun!

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Also DS9 has an infinitely superior theme that just keeps getting better through the seasons.

My favorite growing up was Voyager's theme. Its intro gives me goosebumps.

DS9 is the best Star Trek. I wish I could marathon it again (it would be my 4th time through). It is in many ways the perfect counterpoint/supplement to TNG, but it makes it nearly unwatchable in comparison, if you are interested in plot, characters, and so on. Have fun!

I love your avvy. O'Brien is a great character in DS9. Another underutilized and underdeveloped TNG character. If they can do that to O'Brien and Keiko, whom I hated, imagine what they'll do for Worf!

 

[squidyj]

My favorite growing up was Voyager's theme. Its intro gives me goosebumps.




I love your avvy. O'Brien is a great character in DS9. Another underutilized and underdeveloped TNG character. If they can do that to O'Brien and Keiko, whom I hated, imagine what they'll do for Worf!

voyager is pretty good but it's not DS9

DS9
that brass, that movement.

Voyager
Once you get past the opening bit with the Toms it's sort of downhill.

 

[Polioliolio]

Hmm, guess I might have to check out Deep Space 9 after all these recommendations.

 

[butalala]

My favorite growing up was Voyager's theme. Its intro gives me goosebumps.




I love your avvy. O'Brien is a great character in DS9. Another underutilized and underdeveloped TNG character. If they can do that to O'Brien and Keiko, whom I hated, imagine what they'll do for Worf!

O'Brien is my favorite character in all of Star Trek. A lot of that is just that Colm Meany has a ton of natural Irish charisma, but his development from background guy in Encounter at Farpoint to transporter chief, to senior engineering guy on DS9 is really fun. I also love that he's an enlisted man and a family man. The Chief is at the core of some of the most emotionally real relationships in the franchise. It's like they took all of these things that they never do in Star Trek and lumped them all into this one character. His storyline is one of the best things Star Trek ever pulled off.

Your boy Worf is also one of my top 5 ST characters. You need to wait for season 4 (I think), but he is amazing on DS9. You are in for a treat.


Oh and I agree, VOY has a great title theme. It's usually one of the best parts of your average episode.

 

[JeffZero]

All this love of my favorite TV show.

I have found a home and its name is NeoGAF.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Hmm, guess I might have to check out Deep Space 9 after all these recommendations.

Don't jump right into DS9. You need a basis for backstory first.

Watch Best of Both Worlds, The Wounded, Ensign Ro, and Chain of Command in that order on TNG. All of which are fantastic and the latter three build into the tone that Deep Space Nine seems to be establishing itself with.

 

[jb1234]

All this love of my favorite TV show.

I have found a home and its name is NeoGAF.

It's one of my favorite shows. Just wish they'd give it the HD treatment like they did with TNG.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Cindi, I cannot wait until you get into the current series. When the time comes, make sure you have TNG's Spock episodes fresh in your head, then read IDW Spock Reflections, IDW Countdown, and then immediately watch XI.

At least make sure you read Countodwn before XI, you will be doing yourself a tremendous disservice if you do not.

Glad you enjoyed all 6 TOS films.

Current series? I've see both of them. They're okay.

 

[JeffZero]

It's one of my favorite shows. Just wish they'd give it the HD treatment like they did with TNG.

Sadly the returns on TNG-R just didn't look strong enough for a full-scale project on a comparatively niche sister series (with, it has been said, an even greater amount of work required thanks to its big fleet battles) like DS9. My hope is that one day it'll at least get touched up.

 

[jb1234]

Sadly the returns on TNG-R just didn't look strong enough for a full-scale project on a comparatively niche sister series (with, it has been said, an even greater amount of work required thanks to its big fleet battles) like DS9. My hope is that one day it'll at least get touched up.

Fortunately, the show holds up better in SD than TNG did. Those early TNG seasons in particular looked dire.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

O'Brien is my favorite character in all of Star Trek. A lot of that is just that Colm Meany has a ton of natural Irish charisma, but his development from background guy in Encounter at Farpoint to transporter chief, to senior engineering guy on DS9 is really fun. I also love that he's an enlisted man and a family man. The Chief is at the core of some of the most emotionally real relationships in the franchise. It's like they took all of these things that they never do in Star Trek and lumped them all into this one character. His storyline is one of the best things Star Trek ever pulled off.

This is a perfect analysis of his character. I really like him and Keiko now. Their development has been great and their baby legit gives me baby fever. Seriously, I wish I could get pregnant but some man, SOMEWHERE, needs to adopt two babies with me so we can start a family.

PLEASE.

PLEASE.

 

[butalala]

This is a perfect analysis of his character. I really like him and Keiko now. Their development has been great and their baby legit gives me baby fever. Seriously, I wish I could get pregnant but some man, SOMEWHERE, needs to adopt two babies with me so we can start a family.

PLEASE.

PLEASE.

Thanks I hope you find the man of your dreams and build a family of Trekkies together.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I like how they've got O'Brien on "fix anything" duty. He's probably even cleaning the toilets. 😔

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

DS9 is the best Trek, its just a shame I would never recommend it before watching TNG (which is great, just not DS9).

TNG has some important story beats that enhance DS9. I feel like any cardassian and bajoran episode in TNG is essential viewing.

 

[IISANDERII]

TNG seasons 1,2,6,7 are just bad imo. DS9 is brilliant and much less episodic. I really like all the characters except maybe Qwark, whose 1 dimensional greed conveniently goes away when it comes down to it because he's a decent person after all. Bleh.