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NC Senate candidate in hot water over being against life sentences for children.

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On the campaign trail, North Carolina Senate candidate Deborah Ross says she stands shoulder-to-shoulder with women victimized by sexual assault.

"Too many women and children in this country and in our state know the fear of an unsafe home," Ross said last month. "They need someone who will stand with them, not another Washington politician who talks about their safety and votes to undermine it."

But in the mid-1990s, Ross found herself in a different position, urging the North Carolina courts to impose a lenient sentence on a 13-year-old who sexually assaulted his 23-year-old neighbor -- with the victim's 20-month-old son watching in the same room. The state Supreme Court rejected Ross' push, sentencing Andre Green to life in prison for what it said was a "heinous" crime.


But she argued that if the Supreme Court upheld Green's conviction, it would create a bad precedent on transferring juveniles to the adult court system. She said doing so with Green would serve "no broad utilitarian goal."

Green was indicted just two months before a new state law was set to take effect removing mandatory life-time sentences for first-degree sexual offenses. Since the state had also just lowered the age from 14 to 13 where juveniles could be tried as adults, Green would be the first and only 13-year-old in the state sentenced to life for a first-degree sexual offense -- something critics like Ross believed amounted to cruel and unusual punishment.

"Andre admittedly committed a grave crime, but he is not a street hardened, calculating and experienced and vicious criminal, deserving of life imprisonment at age 13. He could have benefited from five years of rehabilitative services in the juvenile court system," said the brief, which was signed by Ross and two other attorneys. "This case is simply one of the least suitable from going over to adult court."

Okay, this is why we have a police state in America. A Senate candidate is being attacked over not wanting a 13 year old to spend his entire life in prison. Yes, he committed a terrible crime, but he could probably be rehabbed since he's 13 fucking years old.

I'm not sure how being anti-rape and anti-life sentences for children are mutually exclusive thoughts.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/07/politics/north-carolina-senate-deborah-ross/index.html

(Note: A conservative Supreme Court ruled that life sentences for children who didn't commit murder are unconstitutional in 2010)
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
The high chance of rehabilitation means if the system worked right there is no way this should be anywhere near a life sentence.

That said, the story behind it is fucking crazy sounding.
 

RDreamer

Member
People under 15 shouldn't be tried as adults imo

People under 18 shouldn't. You're either a fucking adult or you're not.

That's not to say those under 18 can't be punished. They can and should, just not "as an adult." They're not adults in any other way. Why should they be now?
 

collige

Banned
Life sentences in general are dumb, but doing them for minors even more so. Sad to see she's catching heart over this despite being vindicated by SCOTUS
 
Wait...what. Unless i've read this wrong, under you system, if, say, you steal a pie and you're convicted and sentenced to 10 years, and then 2 months later the law is revised and the maximum sentence is determined to be 5 years for the same crime, those who are serving time for that crime a don't suddenly have their sentence immediately revised to, max, the new limit?

Because it'd make no fucking sense whatsoever to keep a person in jail for life if that is no longer a possible sentence.

(thats on top of the insanity wrt convicting a 13yo to a life sentence)
 
Im also under the impression that age shouldn't even come into factor here.

There are plenty of sexual assailants no matter how old they are that could do with rehabilitation instead of just sitting in a cell rotting for another 50-70 years.

Cmon America.
 
Wait...what. Unless i've read this wrong, under you system, if, say, you steal a pie and you're convicted and sentenced to 10 years, and then 2 months later the law is revised and the maximum sentence is determined to be 5 years for the same crime, those who are serving time for that crime a don't suddenly have their sentence immediately revised to, max, the new limit?

Because it'd make no fucking sense whatsoever to keep a person in jail for life if that is no longer a possible sentence.

(thats on top of the insanity wrt convicting a 13yo to a life sentence)

and what if they make the sentences longer?
 

kmfdmpig

Member
People under 18 shouldn't. You're either a fucking adult or you're not.

That's not to say those under 18 can't be punished. They can and should, just not "as an adult." They're not adults in any other way. Why should they be now?

I agree. Such a stupid policy. It makes no sense. As a society we recognize that their judgement is too limited to drive, smoke, vote, enroll in the military, drink, etc..., but then we somehow determine that they're responsible enough to be tried as an adult? That makes no sense.

Should they be punished? - absolutely, but not as if they were an adult.
 

Piecake

Member
When has the American justice system ever been about rehabilitation?

The original intention of the people who built the first prisons was to build a place where sinners could be rehabilitated through silent contemplation and prayer instead of just being fined, beaten, or executed. That is why they were called penitentiaries. Obviously, aims did not meet outcomes.
 
People under 18 shouldn't. You're either a fucking adult or you're not.

That's not to say those under 18 can't be punished. They can and should, just not "as an adult." They're not adults in any other way. Why should they be now?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the terminology in America. In Sweden you can't get any sentence, if you are under 15 when you committed the crime. Social services will step in. Between 15 and 21 you are considered young by Swedish courts and get more lenient sentences. Not until 21 are you treated fully as an adult by court (amount of leniency differs between 15-18 and 18-21). This is how I think it should be done.

So I shouldn't have said that you shouldn't be tried as an adult under 15. I should have said you shouldn't be able to get a legal punishment at all
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
What a psychopath.

He very well might be, and he might continue to get into trouble throughout his whole life. However, 13 is too young to make that assessment and commit to an extreme course of punishment. Nobody in criminal justice wants to hear it, but you've got to give him a chance to either straighten up or display further callousness and sociopathy before permanently taking his freedom.
 

Caja 117

Member
It reminds me of this case in Massachusset where a guy has already 30 years in prison for a murder he committed when he was 14, recently he requested parole, but it was denied.
 
This is probably a good time to plug Deborah Ross: She's a huge progressive, used to be president of the NC chapter of the ACLU, and is currently polling a little ahead or behind Richard Burr, if you believe RCP or Huffpost Pollster aggregates.

She's rad and would be a Wyden or Feingold in the Senate in terms of civil liberties, a viewpoint that needs a much more robust viewpoint in the Democratic caucus. I'd highly suggest you check her out and donate: https://www.deborahross.com/

There are really few Senate candidates I want to win more because I think she has the highest likelihood to do the most good in the Senate. Also Burr sucks.
 
What the fuck, why is this an issue? Absolutely a 13 year old should not ever receive a life sentence.

I'm actually furious that Ross could catch fire for this. What inhuman assholes think empathy for a child who clearly needs help is a bad thing
 
Note: A conservative Supreme Court ruled that life sentences for children who didn't commit murder are unconstitutional in 2010

Ok first of all, it took the Supreme court to figure out that locking kids up for life is not a good thing? Meaning you were doing this before that?

Secondly, they can still be locked up for life for murder?

They are fucking children. Holy shit dude.

Am I just reading this wrong?
 
and what if they make the sentences longer?

Modern legal system? The previously commited sentence stays as is, with the caveat that, if the detainee then does something new to increase his stay in jail, then it can be increased up to the maximum of the new limit.

whatld be wrong with that? Even if there was something wrong with it many countries operate in a way that changes in law can retroactively only benefit but never punish.

Yarp. Reformatio in melius.

The original intention of the people who built the first prisons was to build a place where sinners could be rehabilitated through silent contemplation and prayer instead of just being fined, beaten, or executed. That is why they were called penitentiaries. Obviously, aims did not meet outcomes.

...huh.
penitentiary (n.) Look up penitentiary at Dictionary.com
early 15c., "place of punishment for offenses against the church," from Medieval Latin penitentiaria, from fem. of penitentiarius (adj.) "of penance," from Latin paenitentia "penitence" (see penitence). Meaning "house of correction" (originally an asylum for prostitutes) is from 1806, short for penitentiary house (1776). Slang shortening pen is attested from 1884.

There's a joke in there about it being called congress nowadays.
 
I've seen the commercials Republicans are using against her. Specifically ignoring the actual story of the case and just saying she was for helping sexual predators hurt women. The way stories like these can be twisted is so fucked up.
 

Piecake

Member

Perhaps I got the history of the word wrong, but...

To begin with, one should note that incarceration has not always been a common form of punishment. Corporal punishment, forced labor, and social ostracism were far more common forms of punishment than incarceration in the ancient world, medieval Europe, and even in England and colonial America. This changed with the 18th Century enlightenment in France and England, which gave rise to new views on liberty, human nature and time. The birth of incarceration as punishment (rather than as detention or for security) was the concept that restricting a person's liberty would itself be significant retribution for crime, and that a measured amount of time served could be assigned in proportion to the severity of the crime. In the United States this enlightenment concept was combined with the early American colonies' deeply religious worldview, which went to the extent of treating biblical crimes such as blasphemy as legal violations, to make modern prisons. American prisons are a unique institution with a roughly two hundred year history of inhumanity followed by well-meaning but short-lived attempts at reform.

The first prisons in the independent United States were established as "penitentiaries" to denote their prisoners as religious "penitents," serving time for their sins. Early penitentiaries gained national and international attention for their high goals of perfecting society through incarceration, but despite their high moral aims, they soon became as overcrowded, dirty, and dangerous earlier European dungeons. Maintaining control of their populations became their primary task.

By the late 19th Century, outrage over prison conditions led to the "reformatory" movement, which attempted to redefine prison's role as that of "reforming" inmates into model citizens, by providing education, work, and counseling. Innovative flexible-time sentences (e.g. "four to seven years") indicated that reform was a variable process, and could be completed sooner or later depending on the individual prisoner. Children were separated out from adult prisoners for the first time, although so little accountability was built into early juvenile-justice systems that conditions rapidly became far worse than those for adults. And again, despite the curricula and activities of the reformatory movement, prison conditions deteriorated to a struggle for control in inhumane and hostile conditions.

http://www.adpsr.org/home/prison_history

So, I got a bit of the history wrong it seems like, but the original goal of prisons was actually was good and moral
 
The original intention of the people who built the first prisons was to build a place where sinners could be rehabilitated through silent contemplation and prayer instead of just being fined, beaten, or executed. That is why they were called penitentiaries. Obviously, aims did not meet outcomes.

Hell, we do it all nowadays. Fine 'em, beat 'em, lock 'em up, and execute 'em. Plus, we charge for it all.
 

Mr. X

Member
Not surprised, she tried to get a lenient sentence for one of those blacks. Don't she know that at 13 they have the strength and attitude of a 24 year old white.

Fuck the news for this, fuck her opponent, fuck the court and judges who put a 13 year old away for life, fuck that backwards ass culture that thinks being inhumane a good trait.
 
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