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NCAA 2014-15 Men's Basketball |OT| It's Cal's World, We're Just Living In It

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I miss him already. Maybe we'll get some rec league youtube footage of him avoiding beatings sooner than later if he washes out of Italy.

3 favorite people in this gif. That black dude just standing their grinning from ear to ear, the guy at the table with the beard whos also enjoying it, and the old guy whos stands up right in front of him and gets so angry.
 

iamblades

Member
Pat Forde tells UNC to take down the banners.

Eh, I don't know about all that, though. Sure, as a Duke fan, I'd laugh heartily, but the results on the court are what they are, and vacating wins and titles doesn't really change anything.

I'd agree that in general revoking wins is a nonsense punishment, as we will always know who really won that game, but given the precedent the NCAA has set in cases like Auburn's and Minnesota's (which are the most similar cases of academic fraud, although at a much much smaller scale than what went on at UNC), revoking the wins is the minimum punishment that would be at all acceptable.

Given the way the NCAA has punished schools like UCONN and Memphis for much lesser crimes, I'd say they'd almost have to give UNC the death penalty for it to seem at all equitable(though I know they won't).

All I know is that if the NCAA tries to chicken out claiming statute of limitations or some bullshit, they are effectively dead as an enforcement entity. They would have no credibility to ever punish anyone again.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
What is this "basketball" you kids speak of?

All I know is that if the NCAA tries to chicken out claiming stature of limitations or some bullshit, they are effectively dead as an enforcement entity. They would have no credibility to ever punish anyone again.

I'm expecting this to be the outcome. The only response the NCAA could give in terms of sanctions would be pretty much nailing them to the wall and taking away the 05 banner, a few scholy reductions and a post season ban won't do much in terms of the perception of the NCAA as a joke. After Miami and Penn St, nobody believes they are effective at all. I know ND, Cuse and Ok St have a couple of academic issues they are currently dealing with. If I'm the AD at any one of those places and the NCAA tries to come down hard on my program after giving UNC a pass, I tell them to fuck off, and call the conference chairman about splitting off. The power 5 want to do it anyway, they just want an exuse.

Thing is UNC is really well connected and the NCAA hasn't wanted any part of this investigation or the agent/John Blake one from a few years back. I expect nothing to happen to them.
 
pat forde another mad hater. we aight.
Nah, that's they type of shit a school should have their accreditation called into question over. Let alone NCAA sanctions too. Absolutely disgusting and a slap in the face of the educational process.

But yeah the NCAA won't touch it due to money and corruption. ECU will probably get nuked, though.
 

Talon

Member
pat forde another mad hater. we aight.
3100 students, about half of them athletes, were implicated at UNC over the span of 18 years.

18 students were with Minnesota's deal.

I would be shocked if the NCAA doesn't bring down a massive hammer on UNC. And, frankly, it's deserved.

I understand Roy "wasn't involved," but he "wasn't involved" insofar as he willfully looked the other way. Sickening shit.

Agree with Mandel's take
It’s standard practice these days to mock the NCAA for its antiquated rules and haphazard enforcement of them, but the North Carolina report does not involve tattoos for memorabilia, free hotel stays or agent payments. It details systemic abuse of the one area the NCAA purportedly holds most dear. Its mission statement, according to president Mark Emmert, is “to be an integral part of higher education and to focus on the development of our student-athletes.” Those Enterprise rental car commercials, those “going pro in something other than sports” PSAs, the obsession with APR scores and Graduation Success Rates — all reinforce the NCAA’s stated-though-not-always-followed contention that academics are paramount to the college athlete’s experience.

So today, Emmert and the NCAA face a defining moment. What are they going to do about North Carolina? How do you appropriately reprimand a university whose employees spent 18 years making a mockery of higher education? Who put the competitive needs of athletics above the academic development of students? Who made “the most serious academic fraud violations in 20 years” — Haskins’ 18 cheating basketball players — seem like child’s play when compared with the unfathomable scope of UNC’s “shadow curriculum.”
Link
 
3100 students, about half of them athletes, were implicated at UNC over the span of 18 years.

18 students were with Minnesota's deal.

I would be shocked if the NCAA doesn't bring down a massive hammer on UNC. And, frankly, it's deserved.

I understand Roy "wasn't involved," but he "wasn't involved" insofar as he willfully looked the other way. Sickening shit.

Agree with Mandel's take

Link

Ol Huck and the Specter of Dean are untouchable.

They'll just blame it all on Doherty
 

Crisco

Banned
This stuff about a power point presentation explaining to football coaches how important it was that the players took fake classes is amazing.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-unc-scandal-is-ncaa-president-mark-emmert-s-chance-at-redemption-160034290.html

The Academic Support people wanted to “ring the alarm bell” for how dire this Crowder retirement could be, so Bridger stood in front of a room full of football coaches, including head man Butch Davis, and delivered the PowerPoint.

It included a screen that read:

We put them in classes that met degree requirements in which:

• They didn’t go to class

• They didn’t take notes, have to stay awake

• They didn’t have to meet with professors

• They didn’t have to pay attention or necessarily engage with the material

It concluded:

• THESE NO LONGER EXIST!
 

Fjordson

Member
What a clusterfuck. All of the "North Carolina way" talk over the years is pretty hilarious now in hindsight.

Honestly not sure what the NCAA does though. They're viewed as a joke these days. And taking away wins or banners doesn't really mean or solve anything.
 

Talon

Member
What a clusterfuck. All of the "North Carolina way" talk over the years is pretty hilarious now in hindsight.

Honestly not sure what the NCAA does though. They're viewed as a joke these days. And taking away wins or banners doesn't really mean or solve anything.
A lengthy post-season ban would do it.
 
God bless you, State fans, for doing the muck raking when no one else in NC wanted to touch this.

Who knew one fanbase's immeasurable hatred and jealousy could bring about so much

Pack Pride da real MVP

AltruisticMediocreArchaeocete.gif


Just hope they don't turn the Wicked Eye of the Wolf upon Duke. God knows what kind of skeletons we got in the closet.

iseeu.png
 

Crisco

Banned
I would like to be the first to congratulate Sidney Lowe's 2007 Wolfpack men's basketball team for their ACC tournament championship!
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
State fans will never forgive how Valvano was treated and eventually ousted and they are convinced that people with UNC connections pushed the whole thing on the media, which back then, was only too happy to oblige. This is revenge for them, this and years and years of UNC fans feigning superiority over their wolfpack counterparts.

This still isn't helping state win anything though.
 

Crisco

Banned
This goes far beyond basketball too, there are emails discussing recruitment of a soccer player by telling her how little school work she will have to do.
 
Even as a fan of another team that plays UNC regularly, I find myself failing to care about their violations. Nothing is going to happen because of this, anyway.
 
Even as a fan of another team that plays UNC regularly, I find myself failing to care about their violations. Nothing is going to happen because of this, anyway.

It matters if you live in NC and have to hear about Roy and Dean go on and on about how incredibly special Carolina is.
 

Crisco

Banned
https://twitter.com/ArmstrongABC11

"Mark Armstrong @ArmstrongABC11 · 19m 19 minutes ago
Just finished long convo with Gerald Gurney - who has studied every NCAA academic fraud case and their adjudication since 1953...1/2"


Quote :
"Mark Armstrong @ArmstrongABC11 · 18m 18 minutes ago
Long story short -- he called this the 'blue ribbon case' of academic fraud. Called it textbook LOIC and fully expects vacated wins/title."

This, this right here, is basically #TheWolfpackFappening
 
It's easily the most clear-cut LOIC in a long time. UNC, by the NCAA's own by-laws, deserves no less punishment than what USC got. Will the NCAA do it? I dunno.

Cash rules everything around the Cartel and we all know how big a draw the Fighting Sky Blues are. Especially when it comes time for the men's bball tourney.
 
The UNC academics for athletes were laughably easy. Maybe UNC didn't pay players in cash, but they bought them a diploma without the athlete having to do any school work. Kind of devalues a UNC degree, even for those who legitimately earned theirs.
 

Matugi

Member
The UNC academics for athletes were laughably easy. Maybe UNC didn't pay players in cash, but they bought them a diploma without the athlete having to do any school work. Kind of devalues a UNC degree, even for those who legitimately earned theirs.

Only if you got an AFAM degree. This is ultimately an incident isolated to that department and does nothing to devalue a degree in other departments.

That being said, as long as there is no postseason ban I am for taking down the '05 banner if it means putting this all behind us and moving forward. We have a great team this year and we'll continue to be a good team. I also think Carol Folt has shown a lot as chancellor, willing to put aside the hype that athletics bring to refocus everything onto academics (which should be the top priority). All the people who continued to deflect this as an academic issue are fucking idiots and don't have their priorities in the right places. I love my UNC sports but I am here first and foremost to get a degree. Top-10 basketball is gravy.
 

Talon

Member
I am prepared to be embarrassed by what fellow UNC fans are saying.

Hopefully it doesn't reach Penn State levels.
 

Matugi

Member
I am prepared to be embarrassed by what fellow UNC fans are saying.

Hopefully it doesn't reach Penn State levels.

I think all of us (minus IC, of course) have been pretty rational so far, and even IC has been rather somber. I think the latter really staked their hopes on the Wainstein report, and seeing that it clearly wasn't positive, they've accepted it for what it is. Where they go off the deep end is thinking that there will be no punishment.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
Only if you got an AFAM degree. This is ultimately an incident isolated to that department and does nothing to devalue a degree in other departments.

That being said, as long as there is no postseason ban I am for taking down the '05 banner if it means putting this all behind us and moving forward. We have a great team this year and we'll continue to be a good team. I also think Carol Folt has shown a lot as chancellor, willing to put aside the hype that athletics bring to refocus everything onto academics (which should be the top priority). All the people who continued to deflect this as an academic issue are fucking idiots and don't have their priorities in the right places. I love my UNC sports but I am here first and foremost to get a degree. Top-10 basketball is gravy.

Thats because a large amount of your fanbase isn't aware on how much UNC gets in research grants and the like. They do not want to put those grants at risk or risk getting discredited. UNC makes a hell of a lot more money from research and the academic side than they ever will in sports, Most ACC schools are the same way.
 

Bowser

Member
As an alumnus, it's obviously disheartening that the actions of a handful of individuals has tarnished the entire university's reputation and, sadly, have people questioning the value of a degree from Carolina. At this point, I hope we are nearing the end. 4+ years of investigations and media coverage has taken its toll on my enjoyment of UNC athletics.

I fully expect the NCAA to hammer UNC. I expect football to bear the brunt, but I could see basketball getting hit with vacated wins and possibly pulling the '05 banner down. Roy came out of the report looking like he didn't know just how rotten the AFAM department was, but that was more because he willfully didn't want to know the extent. But it's clear he was concerned that something was up seeing as he ordered his academic adviser to make sure players weren't placed into AFAM classes post-'07ish.

If there's one good thing that's come out of this whole ordeal, and something that restores my faith in the university, is the fact that Carolina has been open about giving itself a proctology exam time and again to fully reveal just what was going on and put in reforms to make sure it can't ever happen again. It could have easily stonewalled the NCAA a la Auburn/Cam, FSU/Jameis, etc.

I'm just ready for some closure at this point.
 

Seth C

Member
What a clusterfuck. All of the "North Carolina way" talk over the years is pretty hilarious now in hindsight.

Honestly not sure what the NCAA does though. They're viewed as a joke these days. And taking away wins or banners doesn't really mean or solve anything.

Three of the championships they earned* happened during this scam. They should be nuked from orbit. Instead the football team will receive sanctions and a loss of scholarships and a basketball academic advisor will be fired.
 

Talon

Member
The fact that this sort of impropriety happened at this extent at the third or fourth best public university (spin a wheel between UC-B, Virginia, Michigan and UNC) in the country is so utterly galling. These schools hold themselves to a higher standard because they are strong schools, unlike, say, Tennessee or Florida State.

I would be fucking furious as a student at the school and even more so if I were part of AAS. There was a quote from a graduating senior with a major in AAS, and she was absolutely beyond furious about this going down.

Also, the weirdest thing to me is that a friend of a friend is a Philosophy Ph.D. down there, and he did some research with the ethicist that was implicated in this - the one that wrote "A D is fine." He was absolutely shocked at that revelation.

You think you know some people.
 

Bowser

Member
Former Buckeye SG and current Grantland writer Mark Titus' reaction:

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
Just finished Wainstein report. Fball program should burn. But I'm a bball guy, so I'll focus on that. Got a lotta thoughts so bear w/ me.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
1) Big diff between Walden steering guys to make himself look good and systematic cheating. No evidence bball program did the latter.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
2) If anything, Roy looks good in this. Trusted own academic guys, asked for more lecture classes, asked for fewer AFAM majors, etc.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
3) Unlike most, I was willing to listen to McCants…until he shied away when his platform was a legal setting and wasn't a TV camera.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
4) Demanding vacated bball wins/banners based on this is dumb. Roy/players did right. Slap on wrist for Walden’s involvement and move on.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
5) I know there could be more to story/cover up/report isn’t 100% fact. Make your own assumptions. I’m going w/ what I have in front of me.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
6) I wish more non-UNC people would read the entire report instead of just skimming factoids/headlines. This is a futile wish, I know.

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
7) Finally: This is an academic issue involving athletes, not other way around. Feel for all of the normal UNC alums/students this affects.

https://twitter.com/clubtrillion
 

Seth C

Member
Former Buckeye SG and current Grantland writer Mark Titus' reaction:



https://twitter.com/clubtrillion

Yeah, teams have had seasons vacated for things there was NO implication that anyone in the program had any knowledge of. Sorry, claiming ignorance isn't an excuse. Both programs should be torched.

Basketball players' total enrollment in AFAM classes by coach:

Dean Smith- 54

Bill Guthridge-17

Matt Doherty- 42

Roy Williams- 167

That's a whole lot of blinders you've got to put on to claim ignorance, especially in Roy's case.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Honestly, this is the type of thing that even calls into question accreditation. I mean, this would get the school in deep shit even if athletes weren't involved.
 

Bowser

Member
Yeah, teams have had seasons vacated for things there was NO implication that anyone in the program had any knowledge of. Sorry, claiming ignorance isn't an excuse. Both programs should be torched.

I don't see why the bball program should "be torched" if, as the report states, Roy didn't know the full extent of what was going on, and further, even though he didn't know the extent, still made sure his players were not placed in those classes.

But I know you won't be convinced.

All I can do is re-iterate this point from Titus:

Mark Titus @clubtrillion · 7h 7 hours ago
6) I wish more non-UNC people would read the entire report instead of just skimming factoids/headlines. This is a futile wish, I know.
 

Fjordson

Member
I've seen a bunch of articles stating that basketball players were involved in this. Is this not the case?

Roy not knowing any of it seems hard to believe, but even if he didn't, not really a valid excuse if his players were involved.
 
The following image is old, and was integral in starting this investigation, but it needs to be posted in this thread.

For people who are not familiar with AFAM studies at UNC, here's a Final Paper that netted the student athlete an A- for the course.

Bjr6eVVCYAAyS_j.jpg
 

Seth C

Member
I don't see why the bball program should "be torched" if, as the report states, Roy didn't know the full extent of what was going on, and further, even though he didn't know the extent, still made sure his players were not placed in those classes.

But I know you won't be convinced.

All I can do is re-iterate this point from Titus:

I just posted the number of enrollments by the basketball program. It's a lot. If, as you say, he made sure his players didn't take those classes...why did they do so 167 times? Pretending to be unaware of what was going on simply isn't good enough. Sorry. Ignorance isn't an excuse. Want an example? Memphis lost a season for playing one player, who was cleared and vetted by the NCAA themselves. No one at the University of Memphis was ever accused of any wrong doing. The entire season was vacated anyway.

So, based on that reality...tell me why the same shouldn't happen here? Because the head coach says he didn't know? Come on. Be reasonable. But it's okay, I know you won't be convinced.

I've seen a bunch of articles stating that basketball players were involved in this. Is this not the case?

Roy not knowing any of it seems hard to believe, but even if he didn't, not really a valid excuse if his players were involved.

According to the report itself, basketball players took at least 280 of these courses. Basketball is absolutely involved. The staff is simply trying to claim ignorance and our friends at UNC would like to sweep it under the rug simply because the football team was 1000% worse. Mind you, football also enrolls about 5X as many students...

93-97: Dean Smith - 54 in 5 years. 10.8 per year
97-00: Bill Guthridge - 17 in 3 years. 5.67 per year
00-03: Matt Doherty - 42 in 3 years. 14 per year
03-11: Roy Williams - 167 in 6 years. 27.83 per year

Yup, that's almost 28 fraudulent courses per year by the coach that made sure his players weren't taking the courses (even though he didn't know anything was wrong with them...).

Oh, and 10 of 13 scholarship players on the 2005 team MAJORED in AFAM. But hey, Roy and the basketball team are innocent. He made sure they wouldn't do that. The willfull ignorance is mind blowing.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
I think people are trying to muddle this "it's an academic issue" as if the poor athletes just happened to find out about these fake classes and took advantage of them. Nope, they were CREATED for the athletes to keep them eligible. The people who created and fostered these classes were not with the athletic dept, thats all it means. It does affect the severity that the NCAA can punish, but in UNC's case, it may not be by much.

I'm actually glad to see some UNC fans and alumni finally get sick of this shit. I could never understand why people were so willing to mortgage the academic esteem UNC held for the longest time for an above average football team. C'mon, where your degree came from meant something, reclaim that shit.
 

Fjordson

Member
Oh, and 10 of 13 scholarship players on the 2005 team MAJORED in AFAM.
That's the main line I've seen in like half a dozen articles.

I need to read some of the report and I don't want to pile onto UNC fans, but it does seem like the basketball team was involved.
 

Bowser

Member
That's the main line I've seen in like half a dozen articles.

I need to read some of the report and I don't want to pile onto UNC fans, but it does seem like the basketball team was involved.

See, I think it's dangerous and presumptuous to just assume that because AFAM was the major, then they MUST have been cheating.

Quoting some the report:

Men’s Basketball: There were 226 enrollments of men’s basketball players in the paper classes between 1999 and 2009. We spoke with 12 men’s basketball players who had knowledge of or took the classes. As with the football players, it was common knowledge among their teammates that these classes required little work for high grades. Unlike the football players, however, the basketball players seemed to find their way to these classes through a variety of routes. While the ASPSA basketball counselor –McSwain and then Walden – would occasionally suggest these classes, they did not routinely steer players into the classes without the players’ knowledge. More often than not, the basketball players found these classes either through referrals from their teammates – “locker room advising” – or via their direct relationship with Crowder, who always maintained close ties among the basketball team. Moreover, unlike the football players who largely conceded that these classes held little educational value, several of the basketball players insisted that they read extensively and worked hard to produce their papers for these classes.87

87. One former Tar Heel player described how he would bury himself in the library for a full week, read five to six books and produce a lengthy paper for every irregular AFAM class he took. Two others similarly described working hard to research and write these papers while playing in the NBA

...

As for men’s basketball specifically, there is no downturn in enrollments in 2005 to suggest that the new coaching staff brought in a new policy disfavoring the paper classes. There is a gradual decline in enrollments starting in 2007 – and no spike right before Crowder’s retirement while football players and other athletes were desperately trying to load up on the last paper classes – which likely does reflect the conscious effort by the coaches and Wayne Walden to encourage their players to take lecture classes that require attendance.91

91. Both Walden and Holladay explained that they preferred that their players be in structured classes that required attendance.

...

ii. Coach Roy Williams

As Williams, Holladay and Walden told us in their interviews, a large number of the team that they inherited were majoring in AFAM. Five of the 15 members of the 2003–2004 team were AFAM majors, and 10 of the 15 players on the 2005 team were AFAM majors. The three men were uneasy about this situation. Coach Williams was uncomfortable with that clustering in AFAM because it looked like the players were being steered into that major, and after a year or two on the job he asked Holladay to make sure that basketball and ASPSA personnel were not steering players to the AFAM Department.138

138. Coaches Holladay and Williams also had a preference against independent studies and for the structure of a regular lecture class. As such, they directed Walden to encourage players to opt for lecture classes over independent studies. That direction took a while to take effect, as the numbers show that men’s basketball enrollments in the paper classes do not start to decline until 2007, four years after Coach Williams took over as head coach. Wayne Walden’s successor, Jennifer Townsend, also recalls Coach Holladay saying he preferred lecture classes over independent studies for their players.

...

We then sought interviews with all 23 of the players who were McCants’ teammates during his Tar Heel playing years of 2002 through 2005. After 11 of them appeared together on ESPN and signed a statement to refute McCants’ allegations, we asked the Chapel Hill Athletics Department to request that they submit to interviews with us. We ultimately succeeded in interviewing seven, all of whom acknowledged that players took these classes because they were easy, but denied that there was anything fraudulent about them or that tutors had drafted papers for them or others.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, did they major in AFAM because the classes were easy? Yes. Similar to athletes that major in Sports Communication or Exercise and Physical Science, etc. Did they major in AFAM because they were steered and told they wouldn't have to do any work whatsoever? IMO, no, but that's where people are making assumptions.

Another thing I think that is important to note, especially as it relates to the '04-'05 team, is that a bunch of those guys took summer school AFTER they were drafted to get their degrees. If they were just using these courses as a pretense to stay eligible and then leave the school...why would they come back for a degree? People like Vince Carter, who went to his graduation ceremony the day of a Game 7 in the playoffs, Marvin Williams who was only there for one year, but went back NINE summers to earn his degree (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basket...-rare-one-and-done-working-f?urn=ncaab-272753), etc.
 

Fjordson

Member
See, I think it's dangerous and presumptuous to just assume that because AFAM was the major, then they MUST have been cheating.

Quoting some the report:



Basically, what I'm trying to say is, did they major in AFAM because the classes were easy? Yes. Similar to athletes that major in Sports Communication or Exercise and Physical Science, etc. Did they major in AFAM because they were steered and told they wouldn't have to do any work whatsoever? IMO, no, but that's where people are making assumptions.

Another thing I think that is important to note, especially as it relates to the '04-'05 team, is that a bunch of those guys took summer school AFTER they were drafted to get their degrees. If they were just using these courses as a pretense to stay eligible and then leave the school...why would they come back for a degree? People like Vince Carter, who went to his graduation ceremony the day of a Game 7 in the playoffs, Marvin Williams who was only there for one year, but went back NINE summers to earn his degree (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basket...-rare-one-and-done-working-f?urn=ncaab-272753), etc.
Ah, interesting. Man this shit is complicated. I need to read further into it when I get home.
 

Crisco

Banned
Why is the focus still on AFAM? The emails pretty clearly show other departments were involved. It's also not just basketball and football, there are emails implicating baseball, women's soccer, and Olympic sports. Systematic and university wide cheating. Burn it all down.
 

Matugi

Member

For people who are not familiar with AFAM studies at UNC, here's a Final Paper that netted the student athlete an A- for the course.


Bjr6eVVCYAAyS_j.jpg

This isn't true at all

I just posted the number of enrollments by the basketball program. It's a lot. If, as you say, he made sure his players didn't take those classes...why did they do so 167 times? Pretending to be unaware of what was going on simply isn't good enough. Sorry. Ignorance isn't an excuse. Want an example? Memphis lost a season for playing one player, who was cleared and vetted by the NCAA themselves. No one at the University of Memphis was ever accused of any wrong doing. The entire season was vacated anyway.

So, based on that reality...tell me why the same shouldn't happen here? Because the head coach says he didn't know? Come on. Be reasonable. But it's okay, I know you won't be convinced.



According to the report itself, basketball players took at least 280 of these courses. Basketball is absolutely involved. The staff is simply trying to claim ignorance and our friends at UNC would like to sweep it under the rug simply because the football team was 1000% worse. Mind you, football also enrolls about 5X as many students...

93-97: Dean Smith - 54 in 5 years. 10.8 per year
97-00: Bill Guthridge - 17 in 3 years. 5.67 per year
00-03: Matt Doherty - 42 in 3 years. 14 per year
03-11: Roy Williams - 167 in 6 years. 27.83 per year

Yup, that's almost 28 fraudulent courses per year by the coach that made sure his players weren't taking the courses (even though he didn't know anything was wrong with them...).

Oh, and 10 of 13 scholarship players on the 2005 team MAJORED in AFAM. But hey, Roy and the basketball team are innocent. He made sure they wouldn't do that. The willfull ignorance is mind blowing.

Just to be objective, a fair amount of those courses belong to Marvin Williams (who came back and finished his degree) and Sean May (same).

I think people are trying to muddle this "it's an academic issue" as if the poor athletes just happened to find out about these fake classes and took advantage of them. Nope, they were CREATED for the athletes to keep them eligible.

This also isn't true. The classes were created in the early 90s when the faculty in charge realized they could "teach" classes and get paid without actually doing anything. Academic advisers for athletes caught wind of these classes and began funneling struggling students into them to boost their GPAs. It became an athletic issue when it became systematic (i.e. tutors and advisers began to request grade changes for their athletes,with or without coaches' consent)
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
This isn't true at all



Just to be objective, a fair amount of those courses belong to Marvin Williams (who came back and finished his degree) and Sean May (same).



This also isn't true. The classes were created in the early 90s when the faculty in charge realized they could "teach" classes and get paid without actually doing anything. Academic advisers for athletes caught wind of these classes and began funneling struggling students into them to boost their GPAs. It became an athletic issue when it became systematic (i.e. tutors and advisers began to request grade changes for their athletes,with or without coaches' consent)

We'll just have to peaceably disagree about this. That may be what the report indicates but to me it makes no sense. AFAM was a brand new program in the early 90s so it seems sketchy to me that this new program is already going to have fake classes for...tenure? Granted, I'm not quite on the other end of the spectrum either who believe that AFAM was created because Duke now tied UNC with national titles and they needed it to get the Wallaces and Stackhouses of the world. I think the program appealed to athletes because it was interesting and not too difficult and gave minority athletes a chance to learn and appreciate their history.
Things had obviously changed by the time Coach D'oh came into the picture if both Gut and Dean told him not to change the academic support system. I also don't believe that Wayne Walden tried to change the culture out of the goodness of his heart. The 2009 team still had a lot of players that took AFAM classes even if they didn't major in it. They didn't abandon the program en masse until 2010/2011. Do you remember what happened that year?
 

Talon

Member
I don't see why the bball program should "be torched" if, as the report states, Roy didn't know the full extent of what was going on, and further, even though he didn't know the extent, still made sure his players were not placed in those classes.

But I know you won't be convinced.

All I can do is re-iterate this point from Titus:
He only gets started asking that his players be steered away starting in 2007, brah.
 
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