-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NeoGAF's Essential RPGs: 2017-2018 edition - Vote open until Oct 13th - Win Free RPGs
- Thread starter kswiston
- Start date
Do you like JRPGs? Because the fairly even split between them and western games thus far is going to stop holding up real soon.
Yes i love JRPGs as much as WRPGs! My list was almost evenly split between them.
It's too bad you couldn't vote. Thanks for all of the info-gathering though!
If I am going to spend the time making the banners, I want people to at least see them
I would!
You ruined it, MoonFrog.
Binding Blade is a great game. It is my sister's favorite. She has a hard time committing to games a the TV, so she's mostly just played the GBA and 3DS ones. She did watch my many PoR playthroughs, though
.I really like how Binding Blade is tuned. I like the lower hit rates and the existence of more defined character roles because of more lopsided stat spreads (thinking Sophia, for example). Throw in some really memorable maps and you've got a really good game.
...
Although the conversation has moved on from DQ, I was reminded of this recent thread.
It goes into the difficulties DQ has had appealing to a western audience both on the part of Enix messing up and on strange misperceptions about the series in western audiences and how they might arise.
For people curious about looking into DQ, there's a lot from both its detractors and its advocates in there.
I think one of the difficulties of Dragon Quest is its approach to story which often de-emphasizes the main character and central plot and instead focuses on lives other than those of RPG heroes. I think DQVIII and DQVII are instructive in trying to see this "problem."
Personally, I value DQ's penchant for drawing back and telling completed romances, tragedies, fairy-tales, etc. that aren't as tied to a cast that is by the nature of RPG just moving on through.
From that thread:
YankeeDonB
Member
Ah, as long as some Suikoden game or other is in the top 50, I feel that while, all may not be right with the world (particularly in this cataclysmic summer and fall), all is clearly not WRONG with the world either.
When Suikoden falls out of the top 50, I'll take that as an eschatological portent.
When Suikoden falls out of the top 50, I'll take that as an eschatological portent.
Hopefully IS will give it the Echoes treatment soon so more people can enjoy it. 👍Binding Blade is a great game. It is my sister's favorite. She has a hard time committing to games a the TV, so she's mostly just played the GBA and 3DS ones. She did watch my many PoR playthroughs, though
I really like how Binding Blade is tuned. I like the lower hit rates and the existence of more defined character roles because of more lopsided stat spreads (thinking Sophia, for example). Throw in some really memorable maps and you've got a really good game.
The remake of 3 already has a great fan translation. Nearly as good as a professional group would have done on the DS. FE4 and 5 have incomplete translations when I last checked.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Cheers. Good luck obtaining it (legally) though. Its rarity has driven the prices to ridiculous degrees. I was very fortunate to have gotten it for as cheap as I did in the early 2000's. I don't condone piracy at all, but I wouldn't blame anyone for making an exception with this game. If only there were a remake... or hell, just sell the emulated ISO on Steam, Sega, we'll take it.
decoyplatypus
Member
IS's choices for the FE series are frequently odd. I'm grateful we got PoR and RD, but other than sheer desire to make a console FE again, it's hard to rationalize the move to GCN/Wii after two moderately successful handheld entries. A change in direction made some sense after Radiant Dawn flopped, but Shadow Dragon offered little value to the people who were buying FE games, and it's hard to say what about it was supposed to attract new players. The NES-grade story? The ugly art direction? Then IS doubled down with a direct sequel to a game people didn't especially like (granted, it also added some promising gameplay features).
But yeah, starting a remake brand with Gaiden rather than a fan favorite like Genealogy of the Holy War has got to be one of the stranger decisions.
I'm sure there are still a few WRPG's to go though. I mean, BG2 isn't even up yet.
tiebreaker
Member
Nice to know that some else also voted for Legend of Mana and Star Ocean II
Baron von Loathsome
Member
Custom Robo is a fun series, but yeah, it was never going to place.
It was just one of 3800 votes
True, but its still weird to see it mentioned in an RPG voting contest. Would you still count it if someone listed, say:
1. Metal gear Solid 2 (underrated vote)
2. Super Mario Sunshine (highlight)
3. Bully: Scholarship Edition
4. GTA V
5. Rise of the Tomb Raider
6. Assassins Creed
Etc..
Genuine interest.
Iva Demilcol
Member
You take the role of Mario in Super Mario Sunshine, so it must be true.
Yes, unless there was a coordinated effort to sabotage the list with that stuff. Tying for 300-400th place doesn't really impact anything.
Breath of the Wild didn't even make the Top 50, and a decent number of people think that is an RPG. I'm not really concerned about Metroid Fusion having one of over 200 people labelling it an RPG.
decoyplatypus
Member
The nice thing about building a list through a poll like this is that we don't have to worry much about definition problems. If few people consider something an RPG, then it won't get many votes, and it won't make the list. A universe where GTA V makes the list is one where GAF's shared understanding of the genre's borders has shifted to include GTA V.
Fair point. Ill leave it alone.
I guess, but not defining those borders ever so slightly can encourage people subtly trying to make a whimsy list, which would be a shame considering the purpose of this topic.
But then again, one debatable vote is not gonna turn the world upside down.
Personally, I don't consider the Yakuza games to be RPGs either, but they are beginning to get a decent number of cumulative votes. Not enough to place on the actual list, but enough that you probably noticed if you were reading the submissions.
There's a growing amount of fuzziness on the edge between RPG and action/adventure game.
There's a growing amount of fuzziness on the edge between RPG and action/adventure game.
Dragon1893
Member
How are they not RPGs?
You get into fights when on the field, you level up and unlock new skills/increase stats, you purchase weapons to equip, you do sidequests, you play minigames, when a fight starts the game transitions to a closed-off area in which the fight takes place. What exactly is missing for it to be a RPG? Take any established RPG franchise like FF and tell me what makes it a RPG that can't be found in Yakuza.
Yakuza, unlike a normal action game and as is normal in RPGs, establishes a clear distinction between field navigation and combat, you can't just pull out a gun and start shooting whenever you want like in an action game, combat happens in a controlled environment specific for that purpose just like encounters in Tales, FF or whatever.
I've never seen anyone hesitating in considering Shenmue a rpg.
I'm genuinely interested in understanding where this line is drawn.
decoyplatypus
Member
Do people consider Shenmue an RPG? I don't have strong views on these sorts of debates, so this may not count for much, but I don't think I'd bat an eye if someone told me Shenmue was an adventure game rather than an RPG.
I feel the opposite actually, I thought most people considered SotN an RPG. There's certainly more of an "RPG" framework than there is in, say, Metroid. What with the several stats, the variety of equipment, variety of powers, etc.
I would personally consider SotN an RPG as well, but as we've all discussed ad infinitum before, pinning down the exact definition of what an RPG entails is a fool's errand.
These list threads, because they're aggregates, offer the best solution. Anything can be an RPG, but stuff that "isn't really" an RPG is filtered out by people exercising their own judgment re: which games should be considered RPGs.
The vignette structure is definitely one of DQ's strengths as a series. They are the short stories to FF's novels. An episodic TV series in which each largely self-contained episode develops certain themes or concepts that funnel back into the overarching story.
I think what this accomplishes is giving the Dragon Quest games a sense of "place." Even though they usually take place in a fairly straightforward fantasy setting, the way in which the world expands horizontally through NPC and party member vignettes gives the main plot substantially more context. The best example of this is the victory lap at the end of the games, which is one of my favorite things about Dragon Quest.
Part of the reason why DQIV is so great is because it really doubles down on those strengths. You could also say VI and VII double down on those strengths, but both of them are kind of over-the-top in terms of content and pacing. They basically quadruple-down on the vignettes and in the process lose the brisk pacing that the earlier entries had.
I can see these going either way. On the one hand, they have random battles, are character and plot-driven, involve questing, etc.
On the other hand, there aren't "stats" in the D&D sense of the word, it's more just increasing HP and learning new attacks. DMC or Bayonetta would be as much of an RPG by this standard.
I don't consider them RPGs, I'd say they're open-world action-adventure, but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.
What I'm really hoping for from XI is a) strong narrative structure, preferably something new and different for the series in some way, b) strong vignettes that do take an oblique angle on the cast, and c) compelling personal investment in the story of at least some members of the cast.
Basically, I want Armor Project to find a balance between the virtues of Dragon Quest VII and those of VIII, but those would, imo, put it in line with the virtues of IV in particular, but also V in a less on-the-nose sort of way.
I think, from import impressions here, that it is at least going to have something with regards to c). The point of comparison seems to be chiefly VIII. So that is kind of my baseline expectation but I'm hoping from some different sorts of DQ magic beyond that.
Basically, I want Armor Project to find a balance between the virtues of Dragon Quest VII and those of VIII, but those would, imo, put it in line with the virtues of IV in particular, but also V in a less on-the-nose sort of way.
I think, from import impressions here, that it is at least going to have something with regards to c). The point of comparison seems to be chiefly VIII. So that is kind of my baseline expectation but I'm hoping from some different sorts of DQ magic beyond that.
Incendiary
Banned
Heh. I was the one who voted for Vandal Hearts 2 knowing it was a pretty uneven game. I enjoyed it for what it was and for the fact that it tried something different. I always wondered if they tried to replicate it with better AI in a later game if it would have turned out better. But yeah, it became pretty easy once you could exploit the AI. Although I wouldn't ding it for that because that's how a lot of strategy games are.
StrangeRoboMemory
Member
The 1 Underrated vote for NetHack here
It's fascinating to see how the games in the top 50 have moved around over time...most of them crawling up or down a couple of steps, but some of them shooting waaaaaaay up or waaaaaay down. Skyrim from 4th to 52nd and now to 30th...Mario RPG from 88th (wtf) to 41st.
It's fascinating to see how the games in the top 50 have moved around over time...most of them crawling up or down a couple of steps, but some of them shooting waaaaaaay up or waaaaaay down. Skyrim from 4th to 52nd and now to 30th...Mario RPG from 88th (wtf) to 41st.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I've loved the Yakuza series ever since the original on PS2, but I've never considered them RPGs, and I find it weird that people do.
They're just straight action games. Combat is based solely around button commands and combos, not around skill trees or stats. Yeah, you level up and get new abilities, but primarily winning battles in Yakuza is just a matter of skill and familiarity with the right combos and actions. There's no tactical element to combat.
The separation between exploration and combat is there, yes, but that's not really a core RPG thing (plus the series dropped that with 6 and just has seamless fights).
Yakuza is an action/adventure series.
I fully expect DQXI to be based heavily on VIII's template. Which makes sense, if you think about it - there hasn't actually been a real follow-up to VIII yet. IX was...well, IX (honestly not a fan of that game), and X was the MMO. XI is the first time we've gotten back to the conventional single-player formula since VIII.
Or, put another way, this is the first traditional DQ game we've gotten in 13 years. Pretty exciting!
Dandy Crocodile
Member
XI being close to VIII is a good summary I'd say. But bigger and prettier. Maybe better depending on the person.
decoyplatypus
Member
I like the sound of DQ11's skill system a lot more than 8's.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Well at least the main character is the android 17, not Gohan.
That would be neat to see some of the top underrated votes in their own section, assuming you have the time. Great job so far!
Dragon1893
Member
I could say exactly the same about Nier or The Witcher 3, but I digress.
texhnolyze
Banned
It's actually its worst place in Essential RPGs threads history, it's normally higher than that. I'd vote for it but I avoid to put 2 franchises on my list.
And yes, Mass Effect 2 has always been higher than the first game. It's just generally the most popular ME game.
Looking at the 2016 and 2015 lists, ME2 actually came behind ME1 in both:
2016:
ME1: #13
ME2: #20
2015:
ME1: #8
ME2: #18
That's definitely not what I'd expect considering that ME2 is far more popular. Considering how low ME1 is this time around I expect ME2 to rank higher this time around, but it's nice to see people still remember the first one.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I'm guessing it's because these kind of threads attract the more "hardcore" RPG enthusiast and that crowd values ME1 more.
How do you feel about the Raidou series? I feel like the only reason Yakuza isn't counted as an action RPG is because of the way it looks. Everything else screams action rpg to me, you have exp, sub-quests, equipment and random encounters on the map.
ME1 still had plently of RPG elements. So I guess that springs to mind despite 2/3 being better.
It's pretty clear why people voted for ME1 over ME2. It has a better setting, writing and is much more of an RPG than ME2 is. It's just (pleasantly) surprising to me that there were enough people voting for it to put it over ME2 considering ME2 seems like one of the most popular and well regarded Bioware games.
texhnolyze
Banned
Wow, I totally didn't expect that. But yeah, ME is more RPG than its sequels.