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[Suikoguy]

We can't expect the left to realize it's a two party system and the only way to "win" is to ensure the Republicans lose even AFTER this election. So no.

It's not even a two party system that is cultural in nature, it's a two party system as setup by the constitution.

Only way to change it is a super majority.

 

[aeolist]

We can't expect the left to realize it's a two party system and the only way to "win" is to ensure the Republicans lose even AFTER this election. So no.

but what's the point of "winning" if all it does is take us right back to the status quo that gave us trump in the first place?

the party needs to do better than "we're not republicans"

 

[Renegade Frost]

This is exactly on-point.

Of course, one lesson I learned from last year is that you SHOULD offer magic abs.

Policy details and feasibility don't really matter in campaign.

No this is bullshit and you know it.

Anybody who watched the debates would know this is bullshit lol

 

[kitsunelaine]

She isn't wrong. And the thing is, Bernie's smart enough to know he wouldn't be able to deliver. He campaigned on decieving his voters to make them believe voting him in would be the one-step fix-it-all and as a result he'd have been the single most disappointing president to his base and disenfranchise a swathe of voters from participating again.

Now that being said, he wouldn't be a bad president. Not to those who didn't have unrealistic expectations of him. But the people who had realistic expectations of him weren't the ones voting for him, and that's what happens when you support a populist candidate. The only thing you care about is his image. Which is just a facade.

 

[Brinbe]

but what's the point of "winning" if all it does is take us right back to the status quo that gave us trump in the first place?

the party needs to do better than "we're not republicans"

This exact fucking idiotic bullshit is why she's right


YEAH, THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME. *SAYS ANYONE NOT A MINORITY* FUCK OUTTA HERE

 

[Makonero]

No this is bullshit and you know it.

Anybody who watched the debates would know this is bullshit lol

The debates where I was constantly referred to go read a website instead of hearing any actual details?

 

[Rentahamster]

As much as it pains me to say it as a bleeding heart liberal...

Our massive defense spending has lead to the longest period of uninterrupted peace in modern world history. WWII was the last major international conflict and since ramped up defense spending for WWII and kept it going we've been such a presence no country is willing to commit to long term international conflicts.

Ummmm...I'm going to have to disagree there.

The world has become a less violent place overall, in terms of violence per capita, but that's despite the USA's military industrial complex, not because of it.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

It's not even a two party system that is cultural in nature, it's a two party system as setup by the constitution.

Only way to change it is a super majority.

not really, we had successful third parties in the first half of the 20th century, Democrats and Republicans responded by passing a number of measures to block third parties from seriously competing

admittedly these would need to be taken down at the state level but we've even had a coalition government a hundred years ago

 

[Axiology]

But, that's like a battle between 2 types of oranges.

There is so little difference between the policy goals.

I'd argue that the policy goals barely matter. Look at what happened with Keith Ellison and Tom Perez. Both men's politics were extremely similar, yet the establishment felt they had to push Perez to ensure they'd keep control of that seat (and of course we saw anti-Islamic rhetoric employed against Ellison). Now they both pretty much co-run the party, but it won't erase the damage from that race.

Already you have establishment mouthpieces claiming that the only reason progressives wouldn't support Kamala Harris is because they would never vote for a woman, even though many of those same people complained that progressives were throwing their vote away on Jill Stein! This is considering, of course, that many progressives actually don't like Harris because of controversies that occurred during her tenure, including the fact that she took money from Steve Mnuchin and possibly took it lightly on his crimes because of it. Sound familiar?

I can guarantee we'll be dealing with this stuff all the way through 2020, bros.

 

[Suikoguy]

not really, we had successful third parties in the first half of the 20th century, Democrats and Republicans responded by passing a number of measures to block third parties from seriously competing

admittedly these would need to be taken down at the state level but we've even had a coalition government a hundred years ago

Nope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

It's a natural result of the rules set up in the constitution.

 

[Emulated Hype]

Let it die.

She fucked up by not campaigning enough in the Midwest. The DNC fucked up by doubling down on establishment messaging during a populist wave. And the Middle Class fucked up by buying into the rhetoric of a snake oil salesman...

Spoiler

again

.

 

[TooLeetToBeYou!]

This exact fucking idiotic bullshit is why she's right


YEAH, THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME. *SAYS ANYONE NOT A MINORITY* FUCK OUTTA HERE

Let's not trivialize thousands of minorities as non-existent, or worse, not really a minority to angrily exclaim in the wind, thanks.

 

[legacyzero]

Hillary: "You can't run Bernie in a general he's so easy to attack and beat!"

Also Hillary: "I lost because I was so easy to attack and beat but blame Bernie"

You didn't lose because of Bernie, Hillary.

 

[Matt]

Let it die.

She fucked up by not campaigning enough in the Midwest. The DNC fucked up by doubling down on establishment messaging during a populist wave. And the Middle Class fucked up by buying into the rhetoric of a snake oil salesman...

Spoiler

again

.

The DNC does NOT decide messaging during a Presidential campaign.

 

[Irobot82]

It's not even a two party system that is cultural in nature, it's a two party system as setup by the constitution.

Only way to change it is a super majority.

Uhmmm. What part of the Constitution set up a two party system?

 

[kamspy]

We can't expect the left to realize it's a two party system and the only way to "win" is to ensure the Republicans lose even AFTER this election. So no.

I think they lost more voters than they're willing to admit. They even found a way to lose the youth.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Nope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

I know how first past the post works lol, countries with FPTP but with less restrictive ballot access manage to have successful third parties. For instance, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States in the first half of the 20th century.

unfortunately, socialists and progressives winning elections was threatening so both major parties had to be quick to shut that down

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

I get it sucks to see what looks like people just flinging shit at each other (which i fully admit i'm occasionally guilty of). I'd argue that people fighting for the direction of the party is better than tuning out of politics completely as long as they for for the liberal candidate most likely to win in the midterms.

Fight tooth and nail to shape party policy now then turn up to vote.

But that's not really how it works. People in here aren't looking to shake hands on a compromise. Most are literally looking at each other as the enemy to be defeated. As I said, it turns people against each other and creates an atmosphere where some will actively work to undermine the other side while also instilling a sense of apathy in those on neither side of the fence who are tired of this shit. It's also incredibly easy for an outside actor to argue in poor faith just to push for further division and chaos. Everyone in here are either playing themselves or intentionally playing others.

There's nothing good about this type of arguing and to have it right now when nearly a million people are probably feeling devastated is, again, the height of privilege and selfishness. Ugh. I'm done with this.

 

[Renegade Frost]

She isn't wrong. And the thing is, Bernie's smart enough to know he wouldn't be able to deliver. He campaigned on decieving his voters to make them believe voting him in would be the one-step fix-it-all and as a result he'd have been the single most disappointing president to his base and disenfranchise a swathe of voters from participating again.

Now that being said, he wouldn't be a bad president. Not to those who didn't have unrealistic expectations of him.

He didnt campaign on deceiving his voters jesus christ. Come on now

All this "woe is me" shit from a rich old white person is precisely what we need right now.

Talk about white fucking privilege.

Some people remember PUMA, asshole.

25% of those asshats went and voted for McCain.

Her advisors (and Obama) learned all the wrong lessons from the '08 campaign.

Obama was not HIllary's campaign manager. I'm pretty sure Obama knows why he won here

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

It must be awkward to relate to the Republican argument against every Democratic proposal

Yep, super weird position for someone on the left to take.

Fucking ponies. We're all so fucked.

 

[pigeon]

but what's the point of "winning" if all it does is take us right back to the status quo that gave us trump in the first place?

the party needs to do better than "we're not republicans"

That status quo was literally way better for everyone in the world than the current state

If your house is on fire it's probably a good idea to put it out, not let it burn because the real problem is that you needed better smoke detectors

 

[Zyae]

Obama was not HIllary's campaign manager. I'm pretty sure Obama knows why he won here

He loves bringing up Obama all the time. Im pretty sure he blames Obama more than he blames Hillary.

 

[Matt]

Yep, super weird position for someone on the left to take.

Fucking ponies. We're all so fucked.

Asking "how are we going to do this" isn't an unreasonable question.

And it's a question politicians making proposals should be ready to answer.

 

[Simon Belmont]

I know how first past the post works lol, countries with FPTP but with less restrictive ballot access manage to have successful third parties. For instance, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States in the first half of the 20th century.

Parliamentary systems are different than Federal Republics, and while Canada has more than two parties only two of them ever actually govern federally.

 

[pigeon]

But that's not really how it works. People in here aren't looking to shake hands on a compromise. Most are literally looking at each other as the enemy to be defeated.

If I thought that I would probably not be chatting when them on an internet message board

 

[Suikoguy]

Uhmmm. What part of the Constitution set up a two party system?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

 

[Renegade Frost]

This exact fucking idiotic bullshit is why she's right


YEAH, THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME. *SAYS ANYONE NOT A MINORITY* FUCK OUTTA HERE

The status quo for poor black folks hasnt changed in forever so please speak for yourself

The debates where I was constantly referred to go read a website instead of hearing any actual details?

Yeah those. Hillary's acting like the moderators had it out against her or something

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

This exact fucking idiotic bullshit is why she's right


YEAH, THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME. *SAYS ANYONE NOT A MINORITY* FUCK OUTTA HERE

I'm a minority and they're both the same.

Hillary has said some ridiculously, Trump level, racist shit and both her and Obama were on the wrong side of gay rights issues until very very recently.

Minorities deserve better than politicians who only pay them lip service.

The status quo for poor black folks hasnt changed in forever so please speak for yourself

Thread is full of white people trying to talk for black people.

Or, earlier, calling black people racist if they didn't toe the party line. Acting like racism wasn't a major problem until Trump. Or ignoring that the DNC has not done much of anything against it.

 

[Zyae]

Asking "how are we going to do this" isn't an unreasonable question.

And it's a question politicians making proposals should be ready to answer.

Bernie had answers. Obama ran on single payer. Should he not have ran?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

What? Not sure you understand that lol

 

[aeolist]

Obama ran on single payer.

wut

 

[B-Dubs]

Bernie had answers. Obama ran on single payer. Should he not have ran?

Obama didn't run on single payer, what election were you watching?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

wut

He was for it but when he realized it was a shaky political position and he'd rather "compromise" he dropped it.

 

[kitsunelaine]

Hillary has said some ridiculously, Trump level, racist shit and both her and Obama were on the wrong side of gay rights issues until very very recently.

It's almost like, *gasp* SHOCK AND HORROR, *PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR VIEWS*.

The fuck are we asking for as leftists if not for that?

 

[Matt]

Bernie had answers. Obama ran on single payer. Should he not have ran?

No he did not.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Parliamentary systems are different than Federal Republics, and while Canada has more than two parties only two of them ever actually govern federally.

the United States used to elect congressmen from third parties, for instance, the Populist Party elected 45 congressional representatives and 6 senators in its brief existence and only collapsed because the Democrats adopted many of its policies to avoid losing to them. The Socialist Party elected two congressional representatives and many more in lower levels of government. The Progressive Party elected 14 congressmen and one senator. This is ignoring their successes at state level governments, where they won gubernatorial elections in multiple states. The Farmer-Labor party dominated Minnesotan politics until its merger with the Minnesota Democrats. Many of these parties also won success by forcing the major parties to adopt their platforms.

 

[AmayaPapaya]

Nope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

It's a natural result of the rules set up in the constitution.

If you get this, then why did you say this...

But, that's like a battle between 2 types of oranges.

There is so little difference between the policy goals.

Progressives are pretty different from the center that they naturally moved behind...They are only apart of the Democratic party because they have to be in the US. In other countries, they are separate.

 

[Renegade Frost]

Oh, so now after he wins office do we care about fueling him. Nah, he's already won now. The time to tone this stuff down was back during the debates. Back when they were booing at the convention. That was the time to worry about fueling Trump.

Now after the disaster saying that we can't look back and learn from it for fear of helping Trump is the grandest irony I have ever seen.



No, which is why many posts attack her instead of the truth of the statement. Its 100% accurate and we all know it. So don't address the statement, just shitpost about how you "Don't care about anything she says" and leave.

It's no where NEAR an accurate assessment of the situation

that Pony excerpt is the stupidest thing to EVER come from HIllary.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

It's almost like, *gasp* SHOCK AND HORROR, *PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR VIEWS*.

The fuck are we asking for as leftists if not for that?

I'm not saying it's wrong.

But people acting like the DNC is the Party for minorities have apparently not been paying any attention what so ever.

 

[Matt]

I'm not saying it's wrong.

But people acting like the DNC is the Party for minorities have apparently not been paying any attention what so ever.

The DNC isn't a party, so I guess you're right on that front.

 

[kamspy]

Obama didn't run on single payer, what election were you watching?

When 26 year old me was voting for Obama is was for "weed n healthcare". Neither of which I got.

I'm not saying these were the words coming out of his mouth, but I think a LOT of people my age expected weed and healthcare. And less war. For sure less war.

Let's be honest, if you're a healthy dude making $50ish, you got fucked on healthcare.

 

[Suikoguy]

What? Not sure you understand that lol

It's a result of what system was setup in the 12th amendment, watch the other link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo if you don't get why such a setup results in 2 parties.

The 12th setup the electoral college, and the 12th results in 2 parties due to the rules.

Progressives are pretty different from the center that they naturally moved behind...They are only apart of the Democratic party because they have to be in the US. In other countries, they are separate.

?

This is a thread about Clinton's book, so US political terms and definitions should be assumed I thought?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

The DNC isn't a party, so I guess you're right on that front.

You know what I meant.

 

[night814]

I don't disagree with what she's saying but I wish she hadn't said it. Goddamnit. This is just going to make more people fight

Agreed. Bernie supporters were mad in love with him and his ideas, this will only rile them more against her. Which(#witch?) Doesn't matter since she's not likely to run or serve in any capacity anymore.

If she felt she was shackled she should have rebeled, worked great for the current president.

 

[Technosteve]

Democrat blames everyone but themselves for their failure. News at 11.

Maybe Sanders was overly optimistic, but at least he actually tried. She seems content to mostly just let things stay as they are, because "republicans will block it so why try?"

we live in an america where both houses and the presidency is republican controlled. How many of trumps campaign promises has been fullfilled? Now imagine bernie is the president in what world would any of bernie's core tenets get passed.

 

[kitsunelaine]

The DNC isn't a party.

I swear to the gods, the next guy to say "you haven't been paying attention" and then act like they know what the DNC is is going to get-- ... well. Nothing. Just make me sigh and run my hands through my hair in frustration, I guess.

 

[Irobot82]

It's a result of what system was setup in the 12th amendment, watch the other link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo if you don't get why such a setup results in 2 parties.

The 12th setup the electoral college, and the 12th results in 2 parties due to the rules.

Yeah that's not the constitution setting up a two party system. That's the dumb public letting this crap happen.

 

[pigeon]

When 26 year old me was voting for Obama is was for "weed n healthcare". Neither of which I got.

I'm not saying these were the words coming out of his mouth, but I think a LOT of people my age expected weed and healthcare. And less war. For sure less war.

Let's be honest, if you're a healthy dude making $50ish, you got fucked on healthcare.

If you make $50k a year you probably weren't affected by Obamacare at all

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

If you make $50k a year you probably weren't affected by Obamacare at all

that's kind of the problem!

 

[Suikoguy]

Yeah that's not the constitution setting up a two party system. That's the dumb public letting this crap happen.

watch the video,

it's pretty clearly spelled out why it results in 2 parties.

 

[kirblar]

that's kind of the problem!

It's really not, not when these people mostly already had access to good employer-based health care.