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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
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Was this really necessary?
I have bad news for you. He is definitely positioning to do so.
Living in Mississippi doesn't make you pro-life and living in New York doesn't make you pro-choice.
This is very unjust to lots of very liberal Democrats who live in red states.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Remember man, make sure you remember. The reason these threads and stuff always go to shit is because how vile Clinton supporters are to Bernie supporters.
Disenfranchise them because they live in a state that doesn't matter, they will be dead in a couple years, screw em. Unity.
TooLeetToBeYou!
Banned
First post here, so please go easy on me.
I think it speaks volumes that Bernie has been adamantly going hard on Trump and helped Clinton after the primaries and he's brandished as a traitor and people use dog whistles like "Socialist Jew" not just when referring to his """optics""" but him as a person and his ideals.
The man is then flogged and seen as sowing discontent and acting "AGAINST UNITY" when he made comments critiquing some problems with the DNC and opting to improve the DNC via an initiative that many disagree/agree on.
--
Then we have Clinton here.
She was applauded for hiding during some monumental moments/movements/protests because "she deserved it".
She comes out and writes a book and decides to equate somethings such as Universal Healthcare as "ponies" showing just how out-of-touch she was with the populist voice of America.
She also goes out of her way to besmirch him and his supporters even though she disingenuously calls for unity, what she really means is she just wants his supporters to fully submit to the standards that her and like-minded candidates want them to be.
Once again realize, this is only preaching to the choir at the expense of further distancing themselves from the people who cost her the win.
Right now Hillary, and those willing to accept this narrative, is the one damaging the DNC.
We must also keep in mind that Bernie voters converted into a Hillary vote much more than Hillary's primary voters voted for Obama. Try figuring that one out.
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In most respects Bernie is doing more for our future than Hillary is now.
Right now I see on my Facebook feed lots of things Bernie is doing against Trump and to rebuild the DNC, all I see from Hillary is the occasional tweet written by her secretary and TMZ-tier quotes like this.
People need to re-examine this situation for themselves and make sure they aren't being played by the overarching narratives of this outcome.
I think it speaks volumes that Bernie has been adamantly going hard on Trump and helped Clinton after the primaries and he's brandished as a traitor and people use dog whistles like "Socialist Jew" not just when referring to his """optics""" but him as a person and his ideals.
The man is then flogged and seen as sowing discontent and acting "AGAINST UNITY" when he made comments critiquing some problems with the DNC and opting to improve the DNC via an initiative that many disagree/agree on.
--
Then we have Clinton here.
She was applauded for hiding during some monumental moments/movements/protests because "she deserved it".
She comes out and writes a book and decides to equate somethings such as Universal Healthcare as "ponies" showing just how out-of-touch she was with the populist voice of America.
She also goes out of her way to besmirch him and his supporters even though she disingenuously calls for unity, what she really means is she just wants his supporters to fully submit to the standards that her and like-minded candidates want them to be.
Once again realize, this is only preaching to the choir at the expense of further distancing themselves from the people who cost her the win.
Right now Hillary, and those willing to accept this narrative, is the one damaging the DNC.
We must also keep in mind that Bernie voters converted into a Hillary vote much more than Hillary's primary voters voted for Obama. Try figuring that one out.
--
In most respects Bernie is doing more for our future than Hillary is now.
Right now I see on my Facebook feed lots of things Bernie is doing against Trump and to rebuild the DNC, all I see from Hillary is the occasional tweet written by her secretary and TMZ-tier quotes like this.
People need to re-examine this situation for themselves and make sure they aren't being played by the overarching narratives of this outcome.
Teknopathetic
Member
"The Democratic Party already does this.
States that vote D get more delegates to the Democratic Convention than those that vote R. Now that you know, are you holding with your belief that the Democratic Party should fuck off into space?
Democratic States have more power than the Alabama's of the country, as it should be."
Yes? Is that the end of your question?
I don't think the delegate process should be weighted by previous presidential elections.
States that vote D get more delegates to the Democratic Convention than those that vote R. Now that you know, are you holding with your belief that the Democratic Party should fuck off into space?
Democratic States have more power than the Alabama's of the country, as it should be."
Yes? Is that the end of your question?
I don't think the delegate process should be weighted by previous presidential elections.
It's also just ridiculous. You know a great way to destroy the Democratic Party? Kick out everyone Pro-Life. Let's see how many elections we win.
soul creator
Member
I hope everyone here is consistent enough to recognize that while "turning red states blue over time" and "passing major policies like Medicare for All" may be tough, long-term goals, both concepts should never be considered utopian fantasy ponies. After all, there's a big difference between saying "this isn't gonna be easy" vs. "this will never ever happen"
Right?
Right?
lol
Poor GRIMES
Banned
A "let's wait for the racists to die off" tea
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Bernie running in 2020 would guarantee a Trump win, assuming he hasn't been impeached yet.
What do you think the DNC is, and what does it do?
Fenderputty
Banned
Sweeden's healthcare has a private sector that's publicly funded??? Did you read up until "public funded" and just stop?
Why should we not try and limit job loss while transitioning to a system that achieves UHC?
Only 12% to possibly as low as 6% went from Bernie to Trump. Is there any proof they were original Clinton supporters anyways? She may never have had their votes in the first place. 25% of Clinton supporters hopped on McCain back in '08. This whole idea that the majority of Bernie supporters flipped to Trump is a baffling one.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Agreed, it happens over time. You aren't just going to pass Medicare for all, nor is Texas going to turn into a Blue state in one election cycle. Progress albeit slow.
Voted for him in the primary this time, highly doubt I would do it again in 2020.
CornBurrito
Member
Things hard to achieve might as well be fantasy ponies it seems. The rich will continue to get richer as they manipulate politicians.
All candidates for the presidency write books on the experience.
Expecting Hillary to shut up about her experience as being the first female nominee of a major political party and the winner of the popular vote by millions is once again holding her to an unfair double standard.
Like it or not, Hillary has fans. People who have followed her career. Who volunteered countless hours for her. Who proudly voted for her because they wanted her to win.
This book is for them.
CornBurrito
Member
Single payer is a goal. Not one that needs to be achieved overnight like flipping a light switch.
Steps need to be made at some point.
Almost like the transition away from fossil fuels.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Hillary was the Patriarchy candidate. Status Quo. Do as you're told. Don't ask for anything. I don't care. You'll get what I give you. Borderline dictatorial. No seat at the table for people not within her circle. She was a horrible candidate who got outworked by Trump. Really, Trump didnt really prepare but he did show up, which is more than Hillary did in many places.
You are more likely to be a conservative Democrat when you are in a red state. I was very conservative until I was 17 and rose out of those beliefs as I reflected on human rights more and completely tossed religion.
In fact the only reason I would of voted Democrat at all if I was able to vote before 17 would of been because I am Black and my family votes Democrats.
Not saying everyone is like that, but that is my overall view on it. I did not say that all red state Democrats are more conservative than a New York Democrat on an individual level. That would be silly, just overall they are more conservative.
EDIT: If he can run with a much younger progressive under him, then I can get behind it. I am just not sure of his well-being for becoming president at his age since it is very stressful and aging. I feel he would be speeding up his death basically. I can see him winning a 2020 though, though I am not sure if he can prop up a complete Democratic victory enough to push through legislation and I hope he decides to fix other things BEFORE going onto a controversial topic such as healthcare.
Which is why a few months ago Sanders started pushing the Public Option as a priority instead of "Single Payer".
It's possible to get to Single Payer, but to do it you have to backdoor it- if you have a universal Public Option and private insurers start pulling out of that market on the ACA exchanges, it becomes the only game in town by default.
You cannot force it directly, not without massive backlash that will likely get your work undone and damage the economy at the same time.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
It is the double standard, and one that is impossible for her. She should be exiled to Mars, why doesn't she get out there and fight for progressive causes. Hillary cannot win, it doesn't matter what she does she will have a hate force for the rest of her life. I wonder why that is?
They feel they are man, they self-identify as such. He isn't the only one with those views and it isn't the first time I have heard them. We are 'fighting' for the soul of our country and our party, and we have people supposedly on our side spewing vile shit like that.
TooLeetToBeYou!
Banned
It's not about the DNC boogeyman, it's about the examination of candidates like Clinton and if they're doing enough to catch up with our evolving atmosphere or simply ensuring it's "good enough", further ensuring a cycle of being behind the times.
Single-payer healthcare shouldn't be treated like the equivalent of a pony.
CornBurrito
Member
How is this statement any different than "all the hate people spewed at Trump supporters is what made me a Trump supporter"?
Here here. I wish we would all just forget about Hillary entirely. She's not relevant to anything anymore.
neurosisxeno
Member
...wut?
A bit misleading there. As I recall, the claim was that irrespective of the amount of 2008 Clinton supporters that flipped to McCain, the "6% or so" of Bernie supporters that flipped Trump were enough to have turned the election around in its entirely, particularly in districts that would have flipped a state. I do think that it's unfair to Bernie supporters as a whole, but I know of someone who toyed with the idea personally, and I need only point at the dissolution of DACA to show the sheer heartlessness of that choice.
CornBurrito
Member
I truly truly truly do not believe this was or is Hillary's game plan.
She and Bill are very pro business.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I was always wondering why she never really picked Sanders proposals apart. She could've done that while agreeing with the goal, just disagreeing with the way to get there.
I am still not sure if she didn't do it because she didn't know how to properly dismantle Sanders proposals (which I think is likely, because I honestly never heard well educated critique of social democratic measures in the US. People just don't know how a system like that would work, so their criticism is based on a very limited understanding. This is true for media and politicians)
or maybe she would've been able to dismantle Sanders proposals, but didn't do it because the campaign thought it would hurt her.
I am still not sure if she didn't do it because she didn't know how to properly dismantle Sanders proposals (which I think is likely, because I honestly never heard well educated critique of social democratic measures in the US. People just don't know how a system like that would work, so their criticism is based on a very limited understanding. This is true for media and politicians)
or maybe she would've been able to dismantle Sanders proposals, but didn't do it because the campaign thought it would hurt her.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
Not without singling people out, which wouldn't be cool. It's all in post history if you look though.
I don't think anyone says there was a mass exodus, but you yourself subscribed 6%. In an election that close, 6% matters.
Single payer healthcare is a serious enough issue that we shouldn't give Bernie any credit for simply saying he supports it without telling us how he would bring it about. That's the point.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Sweden's healthcare system is singlepayer. Healthcare is purchased by councils, funded by the government. There is a private market for additional healthcare, but this is true of, for example, the UK - about 12.4% of the UK's healthcare spending is privately funded, and hopefully we can agree that the UK is singlepayer.
This isn't to talk down multi-payer systems - some of them perform very well - but on a factual basis, Sweden is not multi-payer, since the majority of healthcare costs are met by a single purchaser (the government). You want to talk about Germany, France, or the Netherlands.
It doesn't have to be. That's the beauty of it- you let the market work it out for itself. If companies won't provide those baseline insurance plans when faced with a gov't run competitor, then they're deciding to move you to a de facto single payer system all on their own!
Man, if bullshit was embodied in a single post, it might be this one. Wow.
They are already doing this, I will lose mines by next year(Anthem Blue Cross) since they are pulling out of Virginia exchanges lol.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Personally, I find it more akin to why I don't self-identify as an atheist anymore. It has too much shit built on top of it. If we have people out their saying this type of shit I don't want to be attached to it at all.
Case and point.
Fenderputty
Banned
Firstly the goal is UHC and cost controls. Who cares how it's achieved? Why care?
Secondly, even if we should care, a multi market system is a great way to transition into single payer
I actually don't think bernie will guarantee a trump win in 2020.Trump will be running against his own dismal record by then.
For 2018 they were able to find replacements. But yes, this is a reason why it's really important to get the Public Option back in the ACA law.
excelsiorlef
Member
It was the latter, as a passage posted earlier said. Her campaign and Obama asked her to be soft on Sanders as to not cause any major schisms in the party. Too bad they couldn't get Sanders on board with that.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Maybe he meant Switzerland?
Also I thought single payer was primarily privately delivered, disqualifying the UK. I wish Bernie was proposing an American NHS though!
neurosisxeno
Member
As much as it pains me to say it as a bleeding heart liberal...
Our massive defense spending has lead to the longest period of uninterrupted peace in modern world history. WWII was the last major international conflict and since ramped up defense spending for WWII and kept it going we've been such a presence no country is willing to commit to long term international conflicts.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Reposting since people still don't get it:
https://hbr.org/2017/09/research-opposition-to-federal-spending-is-driven-by-racial-resentment
Until more progressives understand what they are fighting against, I will continue to share this important study.
Spending Trillions to fight overseas "wars" against brown people is fine, in fact it's a bonus for many voters. But, don't spend any money in the US on free health care, minorities will benefit.
CornBurrito
Member
Cutting defense spending simply isnt possible sorry!!!
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
When is she allowed to write a book about the 2016?
plagiarize
Banned
I can't believe people are still ready to roll the clock back to the primaries on a day like today.
Who gives a shit about the primaries? Who gives a shit about what if? I am not going to beat up on people who pulled for Bernie to win on a day like today, because we don't beat Trump by constantly trying to rerun a primary that will never be rerun. Bernie lost. Then Clinton lost. Hillary Clinton doesn't need to ever know why she lost to Trump for us to beat Trump going forwards.
This shit is meaningless next to DACA getting killed and 800,000 people being fucked over or a climate change denier being put in charge of NASA.
Who gives a shit about the primaries? Who gives a shit about what if? I am not going to beat up on people who pulled for Bernie to win on a day like today, because we don't beat Trump by constantly trying to rerun a primary that will never be rerun. Bernie lost. Then Clinton lost. Hillary Clinton doesn't need to ever know why she lost to Trump for us to beat Trump going forwards.
This shit is meaningless next to DACA getting killed and 800,000 people being fucked over or a climate change denier being put in charge of NASA.
LifEndz
Member
Basically. Can't blame her for cashing in on her loss, but damn if this doesn't piss me off just because of how terrible our current president is.
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