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[Kai Dracon]

IAWTP.

Who cares that Vaan looks like a 17 year old pretty-boy and not some mid-thirties Tom Selleck with too much hair on his chest. But then again, that is what most of you guys (and/or girls) seem to prefer apparently. Get over those boundaries, accept new possibilities in character-design. I don't mind playing a man who looks very effeminate, as long as the game and the characters fit with each other. Not every character has to look like Snake or Sam Fisher, or Duke Nukem for that matter, just to be cool and strong.



Why not?

You know, it's a funny point but I never considered this til now really: as far as nothing actually being wrong with effeminate characters, just what is wrong with having such characters to appeal to guys who happen to be gay? I wonder how many people here would claim they don't have a problem with gay people say, but turn around and want all media - games, TV, whatever - to conform to their manly-man, make-sure-it's-not-possibly-faggy standards? Guys will yell all day about "gay looking" characters in a game - one has to wonder then if gay = bad or shameful them then?

Or maybe gay people don't play videogames? Ah, that must be it! Character designers are confused and do not realize that the only people who buy games are super gritty, iron-pumping heterosexual males. They need to clean their act up and adjust all character design to suit!

 

[Vashu]

Well, I admit that the Magna Carta characters are a little too much. But then again, I was only defending the design Vaan has since he's been the subject of jokes right from the start. And to be honest, I don't see why.

He's a 17 year old kid, a kid, and he has childish looks, not female.

And for Kajima (how's that avatar coming along btw? ), love your sarcasm.

It's just stupid that most people are acting all offended when a character seems a bit more effeminate (in the case of Vaan I prefer childish) than usual. Now I am not gay or anything, but I have a really open mind when it comes to character-design and the way it's implemented into a game. Like I said, the Magna Carta characters are a little too over the top, need to play the game in the near future though, but Vaan seems to be fitting.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Normally I would agree and embrace open-mindedness, etc. But there is a limit -- putting child-bearing hips and boobs on a man is fucked up. It just is. Sorry.

You know, I happen to not like those particular character designs either. On the other hand, I'm not going to protest their existence. Gods forbid there should ever be anything "fucked up" or just plain strange or bizarre in the world, or anything that we don't prefer

We demand more rigidly defined standards of unpredictability!

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

You know, it's a funny point but I never considered this til now really: as far as nothing actually being wrong with effeminate characters, just what is wrong with having such characters to appeal to guys who happen to be gay? I wonder how many people here would claim they don't have a problem with gay people say, but turn around and want all media - games, TV, whatever - to conform to their manly-man, make-sure-it's-not-possibly-faggy standards? Guys will yell all day about "gay looking" characters in a game - one has to wonder then if gay = bad or shameful them then?

Or maybe gay people don't play videogames? Ah, that must be it! Character designers are confused and do not realize that the only people who buy games are super gritty, iron-pumping heterosexual males. They need to clean their act up and adjust all character design to suit!

Why would a totally gay man be attracted to art of a male character with wide hips and tata-looking pecs? Not "dude in feminine clothing" but straight-up female body-shape? That's where this is coming from, non sequitors be damned.

 

[Pellham]

effeminate boys is the trend in Japan, that's why the FF games have them. Not only do they appeal to women, but guys themselves want to look pretty to appeal to women as well. So they have no problems playing an effeminate boy in these games.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Well, I admit that the Magna Carta characters are a little too much. But then again, I was only defending the design Vaan has since he's been the subject of jokes right from the start. And to be honest, I don't see why.

He's a 17 year old kid, a kid, and he has childish looks, not female.

I've seen 17 year olds that still haven't gottenthat "grown up face" yet. Hell...even I haven't (i'm 20) I have a goatee (the the full circle but the mustach and the chin hair) and the reason why I have it, is because if I didn't I would look 17. I actually had this beard going for a while...but drove me insane.

So yeah. I don't understand why Vaan is the butt of so many jokes. Also, you have to realize that he may look like that (which shouldn't even be a problem in the first place) but maybe throught the progression of the storyline he will become different. Considering whos directing this game (hint hint) i'm expecting a darker storyline.

 

[terrene]

You know, I happen to not like those particular character designs either. On the other hand, I'm not going to protest their existence. Gods forbid there should ever be anything "fucked up" or just plain strange or bizarre in the world, or anything that we don't prefer

We demand more rigidly defined standards of unpredictability!

I want a sex sim featuring Sam, the world's ugliest dog!

Now that's character design!

 

[DonasaurusRex]

...im sorry but I miss the art style from FF8 and back down to 2 on the SNES. It was manga, some of the chars where cute lookin, but man the portraits for chars like Dragoon were bad ass, this stuff is a bit much for my tastes. Atleast the graphics quality is amazing , now if only they got some of the animators from Blizzard to redraw these hermaphrodites, their cg stuff is off the hook.

 

[Vashu]

I've seen 17 year olds that still haven't gottenthat "grown up face" yet. Hell...even I haven't (i'm 20) I have a goatee (the the full circle but the mustach and the chin hair) and the reason why I have it, is because if I didn't I would look 17. I actually had this beard going for a while...but drove me insane.

So yeah. I don't understand why Vaan is the butt of so many jokes. Also, you have to realize that he may look like that (which shouldn't even be a problem in the first place) but maybe throught the progression of the storyline he will become different. Considering whos directing this game (hint hint) i'm expecting a darker storyline.

To make matters worse, I'm 22, and sometimes people don't believe me when I say I am that old. They actually believe I'm 17 or 18 years old. Of course, acting they way I do at times it comes as no surprise really.

And yeah, perhaps we can see a darker storyline. I really hope Matsuno pushed that kind of stuff through before he was 'taken off the project'. We shall see, only thing I want now is that playable demo!

 

[SolidSnakex]

Agreed.

The only Japanese entertainment related media I've ever seen that pokes fun of pretty boys and makes them out to be pretty ghey was I's, I think. Yeah I think that was it. There was this SERIOUSLY androgenous character on it, who had long eyelashes and stuff, people made fun of him because he looked like a girl. He had a crush on his male teacher I think. :lol

FF was manga? Really?

If there was that much of a backlash against this look do you think Square would still be doing it? They're designing the game for Japanese audiences.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Did I say there was a backlash against the look?

Someone at this time is probably giving themselves a backlash at those two Male Magna Carta characters :lol

 

[TheJollyCorner]

goddamn... people are always going to be hung-up on this shit, aren't they?

I don't have the extensive experience with the ocean of JRPGs as some here, but I've been playing the FF games since Dec., 1991. Neither the Amano or Nomura effeminate male designs have ever prevented me enjoying the games and/or stories.

That being said, a character like 'bearded' Brasce (is that his name?) looks fantastic.

 

[Pimpbaa]

goddamn... people are always going to be hung-up on this shit, aren't they?

I don't have the extensive experience with the ocean of JRPGs as some here, but I've been playing the FF games since Dec., 1991. Neither the Amano or Nomura effeminate male designs have ever prevented me enjoying the games and/or stories.

That being said, a character like 'bearded' Brasce (is that his name?) looks fantastic.

The graphics of the older games left something to the imagination. But with graphics becoming more realistic, these designs are becoming increasingly annoying to those who are not sexually confused.

 

[Ark-AMN]

Did I say there was a backlash against the look?

Well there ought to be! :<(

 

[TheJollyCorner]

to be honest, when I played FFIV and VI, I always envisioned Amano's art for the characters when I played... probably because I was familiar with Amano before ever playing a FF. What was left more to my imagination involved the settings, but that's a whole different discussion.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Well there ought to be! :<(

Isn't there one already? Look at this thread.

 

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

The graphics of the older games left something to the imagination. But with graphics becoming more realistic, these designs are becoming increasingly annoying to those who are not sexually confused.

Just what constitutes sexual confusion, anyway?

 

[BlueTsunami]

Well there ought to be! :<(

Slender Arms, Thin Waist, Long eyelashes and Thin Eyebrows (in conjunction), Slender chin, Stylish Long hair and add in the reddish hue to the face...

..i'd hit it...but cry into my pillow after

 

[Pimpbaa]

Just what constitutes sexual confusion, anyway?

A guy who dresses like a girl (see Magna Carta male characters). A guy who likes dick girl porn would also be sexually confused.

 

[terrene]

goddamn... people are always going to be hung-up on this shit, aren't they?

I don't have the extensive experience with the ocean of JRPGs as some here, but I've been playing the FF games since Dec., 1991. Neither the Amano or Nomura effeminate male designs have ever prevented me enjoying the games and/or stories.

That's because in 1991, you character was 20 pixels tall.

In the screenshot of that Korean game, they have dedicated many polygons to shaping that dude's body so that he has boobs and hips.

It's fine if people like it. It's also fine if people think it's really weird and decide to talk about it on a gaming forum.

I view it as a little sinister. Gaming can be it's own reward, so putting in a bunch of hermaphrodites and designing them to look strong / flowing / sexy / attractive / whatever, making you control them in order to be rewarded with a gaming experience? That sets off the Jack Thompson in me, a little. I would feel the same about furry games, too. It is fetishistic to manipulate gender to that degree; packaging it as an average-joe RPG and selling it to little kids is kind of fucked up. Sorry.

Hey, mom, your 10 year old boy wants to play this game, the one where the lead male has tits and whose ass is exposed! We made him beautiful just for you!

..Except there isn't even that level of advertising. It doesn't get labeled as something that parents should be informed about because these transexual characters don't get nude or swear. If it were my kids, I'd prefer to be empowered with the information.

 

[terrene]

Just what constitutes sexual confusion, anyway?

Guys wearing penguin suits.

 

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

A guy who dresses like a girl (see Magna Carta male characters). A guy who likes dick girl porn would also be sexually confused.

Aside from the fact that the gender intended such outlandish garb is subjective...

Don't these fall under just basic sexual fetishes? And rather harmless ones at that, assuming they are not done as the result of childhood trauma and/or early exposure to the internet?

Guys wearing penguin suits.

Hey! He and his friend...

...are in those suits to get to a beautiful J-pop singer in order to find out why she is singing music she obviously hates!

These guys have serious balls, man! They don't just infiltrate TV/radio stations wearing penguin costumes, they fight evil in them!

You want sexual confusion with penguins, huh? HUH?

HOW DO YOU LIKE THOSE APPLES?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Hey, mom, your 10 year old boy wants to play this game, the one where the lead male has tits and whose ass is exposed! We made him beautiful just for you!

..Except there isn't even that level of advertising. It doesn't get labeled as something that parents should be informed about because these transexual characters don't get nude or swear. If it were my kids, I'd prefer to be empowered with the information.

I'd just hope the mom would know that its a game and isn't even remotely a big deal. If she's that bothered by it though, don't buy it. You can see the art on the front of the cover, don't buy it if you don't want your kid (for some reason) to play it. Same for anyone else, if the playing as a character that looks like that bothers you so much then don't play it. It's not like you're being forced to play Magna Carta or FFXII. There are plenty of other RPG's out there that feature character that don't look like their characters.

 

[terrene]

I'd just hope the mom would know that its a game and isn't even remotely a big deal. If she's that bothered by it though, don't buy it. You can see the art on the front of the cover, don't buy it if you don't want your kid (for some reason) to play it. Same for anyone else, if the playing as a character that looks like that bothers you so much then don't play it. It's not like you're being forced to play Magna Carta or FFXII. There are plenty of other RPG's out there that feature character that don't look like their characters.

I agree the solution is just not to buy the game -- no censorship is ever warranted, if you ask me. But those character designs are definitely...um... challenges to traditional ideas about gender -- a subject that parents might want to take responsibility for, themselves, rather than unwittingly have it introduced to their children by some fucked up RPG. If this kind of thing isn't one of the ESRB's rating factors (they put advisories like "Comic Mischeif" on there, for fuck's sake) -- it ought to be. That's all I'm sayin'.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Aside from the fact that the gender intended such outlandish garb is subjective...

Don't these fall under just basic sexual fetishes? And rather harmless ones at that, assuming they are not done as the result of childhood trauma and/or early exposure to the internet?

You'll be sorry when these games create a whole generation of cross dressing children!!!

 

[SolidSnakex]

Are you being serious? Having a male character that has some feminine traits should be addressed by the ESRB? For what exactly?

 

[terrene]

Aside from the fact that the gender intended such outlandish garb is subjective...

Don't these fall under just basic sexual fetishes? And rather harmless ones at that, assuming they are not done as the result of childhood trauma and/or early exposure to the internet?

Go read. Gender confusion is a real thing that is studied by behavioral psychologists. It's not Pimpbaa's fault that you don't know what he means, and if you do and you're playing devil's advocate or "new-age open-minded dude," please stop.

Hey! He and his friend...

...are in those suits to get to a beautiful J-pop singer in order to find out why she is singing music she obviously hates!

These guys have serious balls, man! They don't just infiltrate TV/radio stations wearing penguin costumes, they fight evil in them!

You want sexual confusion with penguins, huh? HUH?

HOW DO YOU LIKE THOSE APPLES?

Not very much.

 

[terrene]

Are you being serious? Having a male character that has some feminine traits should be addressed by the ESRB? For what exactly?

"Addressed" as in, maybe put in the textual description of the game contents. Because parents should be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not their kids are allowed to role-play as transexuals.

You do understand that just eyeing the cover art isn't really enough, right?

 

[SolidSnakex]

For starters, he's not a transexual. Secondly, that's just absurd. Is the ESRB going to start having to "warn" parents of homosexual characters in games? Where do you draw the line? Howabout character that are opposed to religion. That's offensive to alot of uptight parents too.

 

[terrene]

For starters, he's not a transexual. Secondly, that's just absurd. Is the ESRB going to start having to "warn" parents of homosexual characters in games? Where do you draw the line? Howabout character that are opposed to religion. That's offensive to alot of uptight parents too.

He's a transexual in my book. They took a 3D model for a woman, dressed it like a woman, and claimed that it was a man. Someone else was talking about a similar character where the dude also was gay and had a crush on their male teacher. And homosexuality, even though it's cool with me, is risque to many parents and they wouldn't want their kids role-playing as a gay man.

Have you read the content descriptors that they already have?

http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp

I can easily see characters like the Magna Carta dudes earning a descriptor. Why is it such a leap for you? I don't really understand your viewpoint, I guess.

Edit: Just so we're clear, the "he" I'm referring to is the Magna Carta character, not Vaan from FFXII, who looks like Rambo in comparison.

 

[SolidSnakex]

And homosexuality, even though it's cool with me, is risque to many parents and they wouldn't want their kids role-playing as a gay man.

They should consider finding their kid a new hobby then. And probably prevent their kid from ever watching TV because those wacky networks like to slip in those homosexuals without warning you beforehand.

I can easily see characters like the Magna Carta dudes earning a descriptor. Why is it such a leap for you? I don't really understand your viewpoint, I guess.

What desciptor would that be? My viewpoint is simple, its not a big deal. Yah he has feminine traits but its not difficult to tell he's a guy. There's absolutely no warning at all to "warn" parents of a character like that.

 

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

Go read. Gender confusion is a real thing that is studied by behavioral psychologists. It's not Pimpbaa's fault that you don't know what he means, and if you do and you're playing devil's advocate or "new-age open-minded dude," please stop.

If he MEANT gender confusing he should have SAID gender confusion.

He's a transexual in my book. They took a 3D model for a woman, dressed it like a woman, and claimed that it was a man.

.....really?

 

[terrene]

They should consider finding their kid a new hobby then. And probably prevent their kid from ever watching TV because those wacky networks like to slip in those homosexuals without warning you beforehand.

No, dude, no. It's way different when you take the controls and start driving the character around.

A new hobby? What is the percentage of games where the main dude is transexual?

What desciptor would that be? My viewpoint is simple, its not a big deal. Yah he has feminine traits but its not difficult to tell he's a guy.

Yes it is, man. Two of us guessed wrong just on this thread!

There's absolutely no warning at all to "warn" parents of a character like that.

How about: "Gender-ambiguous or homosexual themes" and an accompanying "strong" descriptor.

You're right, it doesn't exist yet. That is my point -- I think it should.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Massive sexually confusing designs aside the Magna Carta art is incredible stuff.

 

[SolidSnakex]

No, dude, no. It's way different when you take the controls and start driving the character around.

How's it different from a show, movie ect. that might feature a homosexual lead? The focus in a game and in a show is to have the majority of the focus on that character.

A new hobby? What is the percentage of games where the main dude is transexual?

Very small, and one of them isn't this game no matter what you want to label as transgender. There's really no reason to put labels on it.

How about: "Gender-ambiguous or homosexual themes" and an accompanying "strong" descriptor.

But the question is why the hell should they do that? How exactly is that harming anyone? It's not violence, profanity, sexually explicit ect. Like I said where do you draw the line when you start labeling every little thing that might offend someone?

 

[terrene]

But the question is why the hell should they do that? How exactly is that harming anyone? It's not violence, profanity, sexually explicit ect. Like I said where do you draw the line when you start labeling every little thing that might offend someone?

(Leaving the rest of the discussion for dead. Boring.)

Where do you draw the line? I don't know. But the point of the descriptors was to clue in the buyer on potentially offensive content. I guess I don't really find the idea of me playing as those characters offensive, since I'm an adult, but I would be unpleasantly surprised to learn that was the nature of the game if I had already bought it for my kid and they were 20 hours into it. You know, people get very conservative about what they let their kids consume. I'm going to be the same way. There's a time and a place for your kids to learn about gender confusion, transexuality, homosexuality, furries, s & m, etc. But why let game developers choose that time and place for you?

My belief is, games should be able to have whatever in them. Absolutely anything. Cop-killing, titfucking, you name it. But the buyer should be able to make an informed decision beforehand that properly notifies them of the nature of the content.

Dudes with tits? That's one of those things.

P.S., I don't think the line is whether you can argue that it "harms" anyone -- most of the descriptors fall outside that category.

 

[momolicious]

you know.. that guys chest is really just a well built chest. this meaning he must be very buff. it does not look like a fully built female breasts

 

[jiggle]

 

[SolidSnakex]

(Leaving the rest of the discussion for dead. Boring.)

Where do you draw the line? I don't know. But the point of the descriptors was to clue in the buyer on potentially offensive content.

My point is that there are so many things that might offend people. So how are you going draw the line when you're going as far as to warn people about a certain sexaulity that might be shown in the game. The entire back the of box would be taken up with warnings if you start putting every little thing that people might find offensive on them. Somethings are better left off, this is one of them.

There's a time and a place for your kids to learn about gender confusion, transexuality, homosexuality, furries, s & m, etc. But why let game developers choose that time and place for you?

With parents that are as uptight as you're describing, they wouldn't go anywhere near something like Magna Carta anyway. I'm not saying warning are bad, but I don't think you need warnings for the subjects you're suggesting (other than S&M which would be getting into sexually explicit material).

 

[EviLore]

Who do I have to strangle to make this guy the main character?


Or even this guy?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Who do I have to strangle to make this guy the main character?


Or even this guy?

If the first guy was the main character you'd have another group saying he looked too old.

 

[Red Blaster]

Maybe the bearded dude is the main character and Vaan is actually the main villian who rapes young women and eats babies.

 

[terrene]

I'm not saying warning are bad, but I don't think you need warnings for the subjects you're suggesting (other than S&M which would be getting into sexually explicit material).

lol

Well, I guess we just have different lines on this one, then. S&M does it for you, that shit above does it for me.

I think you're being a little dramatic about the "entire back of the box being filled with warnings," though. Can you really think of other types of offensive content that aren't already on the ESRB Content Descriptors list I linked to? Even with the 30 or so they have, only a couple are ever included on the box.

 

[RiZ III]

Maybe the bearded dude is the main character and Vaan is actually the main villian who rapes young women and eats babies.

That would be a pretty interesting game.

 

[gamergirly]

All, they need to do is cover up the thong, cut some of the hair off. Otherwise, the look is pretty badass(include the sword). That would fix the whole shemale dilemna

 

[SolidSnakex]

lol

Well, I guess we just have different lines on this one, then. S&M does it for you, that shit above does it for me.

S&M doesn't bother me, but it is sexually explicit so it's going to be labeled. Having a character that might be homosexual or transexual isn't a big deal though. It's just another character in the game.

I think you're being a little dramatic about the "entire back of the box being filled with warnings," though. Can you really think of other types of offensive content that aren't already on the ESRB Content Descriptors list I linked to? Even with the 30 or so they have, only a couple are ever included on the box.

I'm talking about including everything that might offend people. You get into a whole new level of "warnings" when you do that. And that's why the ESRB doesn't do it.

 

[terrene]

All, they need to do is cover up the thong, cut some of the hair off. Otherwise, the look is pretty badass(include the sword). That would fix the whole shemale dilemna

And get rid of the budding tits... and the girly platform shoes. And the long eyelashes. And the girly face. Yeesh.

Oh well, I'm done with this thread, dude. I've said my piece and then some.

 

[gamergirly]

I wonder what happens if this comes off:

 

[BlueTsunami]

I wonder what happens if this comes off:

Bwhahahah! Kuja!!!!

 

[Diablos]

Geez, come out already, FF12.