Support NeoGAF

[Gaia Theory]

Nintendo admits that they want to be known as 'the most innovative' company in the videogame business.

The DS is a very good example of their efforts.

However, the string of 'gaming giant' titles coming from the Nintendo stable is starting to become rather stale. All of the newly announced projects contain very familiar Nintendo faces. Why?

Nintendo has become far too dependent on them. While Nintendo could easily be creatively thinking up new characters to place in unfamiliar worlds and mythologies amongst familiar and unfamiliar game genres, Nintendo instead, chooses to release tried and true hits. Self proclaimed Gaming Giants. Where is the little guys armed with only a rock to combat these Giants and vy for the top echelon of the gaming world? Why is it that for 2005, Gamecube will see first party releases such as:

Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Mario Baseball, Zelda, and Star Fox?

Not a single unknown in the bunch. There are exceptions (Chibi Robo, if it's released stateside, but that was not developed in house at Nintendo). These exceptions fall under Nintendo's publishing arm (Geist). But when it comes to Nintendo development, all unoriginal, well known marquee players.

We haven't seen any truly unique DS software from them yet either... rather dissapointing.

If Nintendo wants to be known as an innovative company, the recent announcements should have contained at least one new IP (intellectual property). But alas, it seems Nintendo isn't ready yet. Heck, I would've even preferred old, resurrected IPs that we haven't seen for awhile (Kid Icarus), then say - Kirby.

I know that IGN through N-Sider recently did a story on Nintendo innovation and sequel-itis already, and these recent announcements provoked me to chime in.

It's really too bad that new gaming giants haven't emerged from the minds of Nintendo's greatest creators. Instead, we are inundated with friendly, familiar faces.

For once, I'd like to look at a new Nintendo developed title and say... WTF is THAT?!?!

 

[Deg]

Remember the big announcements dont happen just before christmas. Most of these are screenshot updates.

Mario Baseball wasnt expected. But i guess thats Camelot's role nowadays.

 

[paul777]

I don't care what the coating of their game is as long as it is good. And innovation does not require new ips. Yoshi's touch 'n go, Wario Ware, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, etc. should be proof enough of that.

 

[Deg]

i dont see how these are a setback. They should be showing screens of Zelda. Where's our trailer?

 

[DSN2K]

Nintendo are keeping the hive happy and thats what counts when they are the only ones making them any money.

 

[lexi]

Yeah, no unique DS software, none at all.

 

[Defensor]

i dont see how these are a setback. They should be showing screens of Zelda. Where's our trailer?

Kaplan: In your lifetime.

 

[GDJustin]

innovation does not require new ips. Yoshi's touch 'n go, Wario Ware, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, etc. should be proof enough of that.

This thread is over, right here with this post. Using preexisting characters has nothing to do with a game's level of innovation. Nintendo uses their established properties and puts them in situations that have literally never been seen in videogames before, or are at least new to the company.

 

[Gaia Theory]

I agree that innovation doesn't require new IPs. I would also agree that it is easier to sell innovative products wrapped with familiarity than not.

That said, I still feel Nintendo is relying too heavily on characters created 20 years ago. I'm not saying they should abandon them completely (The Legend of Zelda continues to be my all time favorite series), but I am saying that it is time for the company to invest in the future. If they could add one successful new IP a year to their cast of franchises, that's one more franchise to milk.

So we'd get new franchises and we'd get sequels to those and old franchises. A win-win scenario, if you will.

 

[GDJustin]

\ one successful new IP a year to their cast of franchises

N63 generation:

Wave Race
1080
I'm sure there's others I'm forgetting?

This gen:
Wario Ware
Pikmin
Animal Crossing

 

[Gaia Theory]

Yeah, no unique DS software, none at all.

I should quantify my statement:

No new unique software from Nintendo in-house anywhere near the launch window.

There is definitely innovation for the DS coming down the pipe from them. Sorry for not being clear on that.

 

[GDJustin]

People seem to be very fond of forgetting the brand new franchises that nintendo has established and nurtured this gen. No other dev house has released more successful new IP this gen, in fact.

 

[lexi]

The fact is Nintendo creates more new franchises then any other dev. If you want to complain, maybe you can criticize the technical aspects of the games, such as the poor embroidery on Link's pouches in the new Zelda screenshots.

 

[Gaia Theory]

I personally think that, so far, there is absolutely nothing to complain about concering Zelda 2005 (but that's a little off topic).

I'm not saying that Nintendo doesn't create new IPs. That's simply not my argument. My argument is that it's another setback for the company.

With Gamecube sales trailing, third party support dwindling (varied software), and mainstream consumers feeling as though the company is irrelevant - Nintendo continues to announce long standing Nintendo franchise games.

This will absolutely not sell more Gamecubes to the public. They are simply catering to their currently installed user base.

Relying so heavily on their marquee players is not gaining them new customers, it's merely serving to satisfy those that already own the GCN.

 

[Buffy4ever]

The fact is Nintendo creates more new franchises then any other dev. If you want to complain, maybe you can criticize the technical aspects of the games, such as the poor embroidery on Link's pouches in the new Zelda screenshots.

Wrong Sega creates more new franchises than Nintendo!

 

[Deg]

.

I'm not saying that Nintendo doesn't create new IPs. That's simply not my argument. My argument is that it's another setback for the company.

.

How? Whats wrong with giving new screens? I agree new franchises should be created of the mature variety but these announcements are also necessary.

 

[Gaia Theory]

Wrong Sega creates more new franchises than Nintendo!

Billy Hatcher certainly could've been another Sonic game, maybe one starring Knuckles or Cream or some other Sonic sidekick, but yes, Sega risked introducing a new IP (one which I happen to absolutely love).

 

[Deg]

SEGA games bomb however.

 

[Gaia Theory]

How? Whats wrong with giving new screens? I agree new franchises should be created of the mature variety but these announcements are also necessary.

Nintendo runs the risk of dilluting and over-saturating their most prized characters at the very same time. An odd predicament. Over exposure can result in backlash (Tomb raider - not that I would ever want to compare Nintendo to Eidos, because Nintendo certainly knows how to nurture and develop franchises like no other company in the world).

New screens aren't a problem. Show us new screens.

Mature titles or not, Nintendo needs to make up for the lack of third party support they're receiving by branching out and providing new experiences with fresh faces.

 

[Deg]

Nintendo runs the risk of dilluting and over-saturating their most prized characters at the very same time. An odd predicament. Over exposure can result in backlash (Tomb raider - not that I would ever want to compare Nintendo to Eidos, because Nintendo certainly knows how to nurture and develop franchises like no other company in the world).

New screens aren't a problem. Show us new screens.

Mature titles or not, Nintendo needs to make up for the lack of third party support they're receiving by branching out and providing new experiences with fresh faces.

True but they must also cater to the existing audience too. What are the big upcoming multiplayer games? There's not that many this is why Mario baseball is an excellent idea.

 

[Gaia Theory]

I totally agree that Nintendo absolutely MUST cater to their audience. I also believe that Nintendo desperately needs to learn how to balance their software development so that they are not ONLY catering to their audience.

I really did believe Nintendo when they said that as a result of farming out Star Fox and Donkey Konga to Namco, and F-Zero to Sega, that it would free up internal Nintendo development to create new games. I guess I was hoping for new IPs. Roll-a-rama anyone? That game looks much better as a generic block puzzle game than it ever did as the Kirby-tilt game (GCN) that it used to be.

 

[etiolate]

Publishers are wary of trying something new and buyers haven't exactly been rewarding them for trying new ideas.

You got to remember, familiar characters don't mean the same games. Nintendo adds their characters to new games in different genres because it boosts sales. It is one way to get buyers to try new genres and types of games.

 

[GDJustin]

Wrong Sega creates more new franchises than Nintendo!

Sega introduces more new IP. Nintendo creates more franchises. When Sega tries something new it bombs.

 

[Sunski]

I agree that Nintendo should not over expose certain characters such as Link and the Zelda games, or F-Zero and other along those lines.

However, I don't think changing Mario Baseball into Ricky the Raccoon baseball would suddenly make it any better or more innovative.

 

[DDayton]

You know, the last time Nintendo released a flood of titles with unique characters and settings, most titles didn't make it.

In the first few years of the NES/Famicom, we saw all of the following properties developed:

Balloon Fight
Mach Rider
Clu Clu Land
Devil World
Kid Icarus
Super Mario Bros.
(and many, many more)

Most of these games/characters/settings didn't survive. The games may be fondly remembered, but few brought in enough cash flow to ensure future titles. Flooding the market with too many new characters/titles might simply serve to dilute the appeal of each one. Someone may not buy all the Mario games, but they might be drawn to purchase a few because of the character and the knowledge that other games with Mario have been good. However, that same person will not be as tempted to try out a variety of "new character" games as readily.

As a side note, the Wario games are interesting in that they started as a spin off of the Mario titles, then became something very different. Warioland 4, Wario World, and Wario Ware barely resemble the Mario series. Nintendo has developed a new IP by branching off of the Mario titles.

 

[kitchenmotors]

Wahhhhh I'm a crying little bitch if Nintendo doesn't make new games, but if they make new games then I'm a crying little bitch cause I want sequels to my favorite games Wahhhhh

God damn people, you're never happy.

 

[Teddman]

DavidDayton's post made me remember how much Nintendo 1st party really ruled back in the early NES days. Back when the biggest game producer was Gunpei Yokoi--not Miyamoto.

I don't think they ever recovered from Yokoi's loss, and that could be part of the reason we haven't seen many good new IP's from them since.

 

[kitchenmotors]

Now for the serious reply, it's far too late in the Gamecube life cycle to start original projects that have a lot of ambition. Wait for Revolution, because right now it's going to be about sequels, for EVERY platform. This is how the market works. Remember Donkey Kong Country? Come out at the tail end of the SNES, a sequel to a Nintendo game and it performed very well. Say that game had been called Puffy's Adventure with weird characters we had never seen before, you think it would have done as well?

 

[Timedog]

NINTENDO'S DOWNFALL THIS GEN IS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF NEW COMPELLING IP'S.

 

[drohne]

nintendo creates more new franchises than any other developer? sorry, what? i think this is further evidence that in the minds of nintendo fans, nintendo is the only developer that solidly exists. other developers may occasionally intrude as vague rumors or the negative nintendo is compared to, but never clearly enough that their catalogues and strengths can be examined. little wonder capcom deserted you.

i'm going to go ahead and assert that every major developer, excluding ea but including capcom, creates more original ip than nintendo. i will not discuss "new franchises" where a franchise implies sequels, because a willingness to create sequels is not evidence of originality.

ps: my criticisms of link's design are aesthetic rather than technical. i would go into realda's technical failings, except that i'm not really qualified.

 

[AniHawk]

Listing, not arguing.

New IPs since 2000:

Pikmin
Animal Forest
Another
Doshin the Giant
Animal Leader

Not including MIA/canned stuff like Roll-o-rama or Stage Debut, or published stuff like Geist, Legend of Stafi or Sin & Punishment.

I think that's it. Twist it to all y'all's likings.

 

[drohne]

i thought hamtaro was an anime license. and the starfi games are developed by tose rather than nintendo. they probably belong in the "published" category with geist, sin and punishment, etc.

 

[AniHawk]

i thought hamtaro was an anime license. and the starfi games are developed by tose rather than nintendo. they probably belong in the "published" category with geist, sin and punishment, etc.

I didn't know that, I just looked off the Gamefaqs listings.

 

[Teddman]

Now, now... I'm of your mind on this but they did a little more than simply publish Sin & Punishment.

 

[ge-man]

More selective thinking. You know, Nintendo does create new characters and stuff. I don't think that is the problem in this case considering that most other companies are also doing the same things they are by running with IPs and ideas as far as they can. I'll admit that Mario is overexposed now, but other then that I think is more of a case of appeal.

Instead of getting a Halo from Nintendo, we got Pikmin. I think that sense of where the industry is going and where Nintendo is heading themselves bothers people more than their overall output. I think Fran's editorial from the other day could be boiled down to this.

In the end, I doubt those who are criticizing Nintendo for their output would've care how many IPs they put out their if they fit the genres and visual styles that are more appealing to you.

 

[drohne]

you're not baiting me into that argument again! i'll just refer you to sf kosmo, where you can peruse the credits and draw your own conclusions: http://sfkosmo.gamersgraveyard.com

ps: if you draw the conclusion that r+d 1 did anything beyond the oversight typical of certain publishing agreements, YOU'RE WRONG!

 

[Teddman]

Heh heh, but they did have the main producer and pretty much all the supervisers on the game. And that site does refer to it as "a game they closely collaborated with Nintendo on."

But in regards to this thread's argument, I'd say you're right... I wouldn't count S&P as a new Nintendo intellectual property because Treasure obviously had more to do with the game concept. R&D1's involvement seems decidedly more on the technical side.

 

[snapty00]

I agree. It's depressing to see Mario in such a large percentage of Nintendo's games nowadays. Nintendo used to really lead the industry in areas like this, but now, they're basically Company X trying to make a quick buck from License Y. They're no better than anybody else today and are, in fact, worse. This is really no better than some shitty third-party developer like Acclaim making three thousand different games based on a popular license like Sponge Bob Square Pants.

 

[mightynine]

I agree. It's depressing to see Mario in such a large percentage of Nintendo's games nowadays. Nintendo used to really lead the industry in areas like this, but now, they're basically Company X trying to make a quick buck from License Y. They're no better than anybody else today and are, in fact, worse. This is really no better than some shitty third-party developer like Acclaim making three thousand different games based on a popular license like Sponge Bob Square Pants.

The difference is, I'd rather play a game from Camelot with Mario than an Acclaim game with Spongebob.

I love all this complaining about "all they're doing is appealing to people who already own a GC". Holy crap, what a concept! Let's get the people who own the machine to buy games for it! That way we make some money!

Why is it so depressing that you're seeing Mario games? NINTENDO IS NOT DEVELOPING THEM. They see money in the bank so they approve them.

And I swear, it's not like the N sends someone to your house with a modified Super Scope 6 with a laser to cut through your bones and forces you to buy ANY of these games.

I'm really getting sick of arguements based on "You know, I really don't think they should make this game, so they really shouldn't make it because I won't buy it." I'm not going to buy GTA:SA until it's a $20 title, and maybe not even then. The series doesn't do much for me, but I'm not going to bitch and moan when other people obviously like it and want to play it.

 

[xsarien]

Every fucking week, I swear.

 

[Teddman]

Every fucking week, I swear a new Mario game comes out.

 

[NWO]

Why is it that for 2005, Gamecube will see first party releases such as:

Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Mario Baseball, Zelda, and Star Fox?

Not a single unknown in the bunch.

This one is easy to answer.

If your going to make a new franchise you DO NOT launch it near the end of the console but instead near the beginning of it to give it some exposure and incase it becomes a "hot" game.

Just imagine if Halo launched now instead of being a launch title for the Xbox. You wouldn't be able to make a sequel to it and all the momentum of it being hot would be killed by the next console coming out.

Pikmin and Animal Crossing came out near the beginning of the Cube and got enough exposure to be successful. They didn't have a lot of other games on the shelves when they came out so more people probably gave them a chance than if they had come out this Christmas.

And its not really fair to bash Nintendo for making a regular Kirby game or a regular Starfox game. Anybody would trade away the spinoffs to play these instead. And Advance Wars and Fire Emblem don't have anything on the Cube or for any console for that matter so what's wrong with them?

And another thing why do people want "new" titles from Nintendo but in these Xenon threads all people do is gush over the fact that they want to see Halo, DOA, Perfect Dark, PGR, NG, Conker, Banjo, MA, and all of the other well known franchises on the XBox. Nobody bitches about them needing to make new franchises infact people don't even bring that up at all.

 

[Cathcart]

"Nintendo is not innovative because they use their IP too much"

"Innovation does not need new IP"

"That's true, but they need to make more new IP"

"Here are several new franchises they've created since the Cube launched"

"Well, it's a setback"

Whatever, Cassimassina. Stop registering accounts on GAF to spread your Boring Theory. Jesus. ONE Mario platformer this gen, three each of Jak and Ratchet. One new Zelda adventure (maybe two if you want to count Four Swords), three GTAs. One Mario Kart, two GTs, 3 Burnouts and like 650 crap racers from Namco. One Smash Brothers game, three Tekkens, two (three?) DOAs. You can do this all day.

Sure there are a bunch of Mario Parties and Pokemons. Whatever. I'm not saying they don't know how to make the quick cash. Everyone relies on their IPs, Nintendo is far from the worst offender, everyone shut up, kthnxbye.

 

[SantaC]

Every fucking week, I swear a new Mario game comes out.

there has only been one mario game for gamecube so far.

 

[ge-man]

And another thing why do people want "new" titles from Nintendo but in these Xenon threads all people do is gush over the fact that they want to see Halo, DOA, Perfect Dark, PGR, NG, Conker, Banjo, MA, and all of the other well known franchises on the XBox. Nobody bitches about them needing to make new franchises infact people don't even bring that up at all.

Because Nintendo is held to a different standard either by trolls or people who refuse to see the same thing happening the rest of the industry that is happening with Nintendo. The videogame industry thrives on establishing franchises--it is not fueled by the creation of brand new titles. I'm not a fan of it and I'm sure others aren't too keen on the trend either, but Nintendo shouldn't be chastized for rehashing when most developers are just as guilty of the practice.

Again, I think the real reason people are disappointed with Nintendo's output has pretty much everything to do with appeal. The same critics would continue to bitch in the case of Nintendo releasing a dozen new games if all those games had the typical Nintendo aesthetics. You wouldn't hear a people out of people if Nintendo released their own Halo or GTA or even a spirtual successor to Goldeneye.

 

[Gaia Theory]

I just read that Nintendo is collaborating with Namco on Mario Baseball. So, I guess that's another example of them farming out their franchises to 'preferred' third parties in order to free them up to develop new stuff. (On a side note, it is looking more and more as though Namco is very much enjoying their colloborative partnership with Nintendo - exclusive RPGs, Star Fox, Donkey Konga (1,2,3) and now Mario Baseball)

Which is kind of interesting in itself. If farming out Nintendo franchises leads to exclusive content from third parties featuring Nintendo characters, and Nintendo uses that free time to create more games with familiar Nintendo characters, wouldn't it be much better if the third parties were providing non-Nintendo character exclusives instead.

For the record, I'm not 'chastizing' Nintendo. The entire industry is certainly much worse off in this regard (my topic) than Nintendo. Nintendo has, unfortunately, fallen into to same life jacket that the rest of the industry has. BUT - Nintendo is the one that claims they want to be the most innovative game company. If that is a mission statement, or general company philosophy, I'd personally like to see it practiced. Innovation with the protective cover of super star IPs is all good, but I'd also like to see some innovation with some risks (like the DS).

 

[Teddman]

there has only been one mario game for gamecube so far.

Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, Mario Party 4, Mario Party 5, Paper Mario, Mario Kart: DD, Mario Sunshine, upcoming Mario Baseball etc. and then about a dozen more on GBA.

You know what I meant; the man's getting tired.

 

[Deg]

Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, Mario Party 4, Mario Party 5, Paper Mario, Mario Kart: DD, Mario Sunshine, upcoming Mario Baseball etc. and then about a dozen more on GBA.

You know what I meant; the man's getting tired.

But they arent the same games and they sell well. There are alot of companies who milk the exact same game every year

 

[ge-man]

I just read that Nintendo is collaborating with Namco on Mario Baseball. So, I guess that's another example of them farming out their franchises to 'preferred' third parties in order to free them up to develop new stuff.

Which is kind of interesting in itself. If farming out Nintendo franchises leads to exclusive content from third parties featuring Nintendo characters, and Nintendo uses that free time to create more games with familiar Nintendo characters, wouldn't it be much better if the third parties were providing non-Nintendo character exclusives instead.

It would be better, but who is willing or able to do so? Almost no one wants to do that, and outside of RE Nintendo has be completely unable to get exclusive games. For example, Nintendo made a serious attempt to get Soul Calibur 2 as an exclusive. When that failed, they tried for an exclusive character--that worked, but then Sony and MS got their own exclusive characters, softening the impact of having Link as a playable fighter. Stuff like that underscores the difficulty with dealing with 3rd parties. Hopefully this approach will result in more truly exclusive titles, but right now it's a rocky start.

 

[Deku Tree]

Look @ the US sales of Pikmin 2, the consumers are telling Nintendo to stick with what sells (which are their age old mascotts). It's kinda sad.