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[midnightguy]

German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the
Vatican theologian who was elected Pope Benedict XVI, intervened in the 2004 US election campaign ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters including presidential candidate John Kerry.


In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open supporters of abortion should be denied the Catholic sacrament, for being guilty of a "grave sin."

He specifically mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws," a reference widely understood to mean Democratic candidate Kerry, a Catholic who has defended abortion rights.

The letter said a priest confronted with such a person seeking communion "must refuse to distribute it."

A footnote to the letter also condemned any Catholic who votes specifically for a candidate because the candidate holds a pro-abortion position. Such a voter "would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for holy communion," the letter read.

The letter, which was revealed in the Italian magazine L'Espresso last year, was reportedly only sent to US Catholic bishops, who discussed it in their convocation in Denver, Colorado, in mid-June.

Sharply divided on the issue, the bishops decided to leave the decision on granting or denying communion to the individual priest. Kerry later received communion several times from sympathetic priests.

Nevertheless, in the November election, a majority of Catholic voters, who traditionally supported Democratic Party candidates, shifted their votes to Republican and eventual winner George W. Bush.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus


interesting, no?

 

[ShadowRed]

This is about as suprising as finding out that the Nazis hated Jews.

 

[Doth Togo]

:lol

 

[galeninjapan]

It really has nothing to do with "organized religion" rather the fact that they are being hypocritical.

 

[Kuroyume]

Such is the irony that is part of the greater idiocy of organized religion.

No kidding... people need to protect themselves from organized religion.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

According to the Christian Bible...

Jesus Christ, the Christian savior whom the Catholics and all other Christian believers follow, would not turn away a soul. Jesus befriended whores, slaves, the poor, homeless, tax collectors, ...anyone. Never would He turn away one who asked for forgiveness or repentance, regardless of circumstance.

The Catholic Church, by saying who can and cannot have communion, goes against the preachings of Jesus Christ, which they profess that they follow.

Such is the irony that is part of the greater idiocy of organized religion.

Sorry to nitpick, but that's only accurate if Kerry was asking for forgiveness...

 

[Boomer]

According to the Christian Bible...

Jesus Christ, the Christian savior whom the Catholics and all other Christian believers follow, would not turn away a soul. Jesus befriended whores, slaves, the poor, homeless, tax collectors, ...anyone. Never would He turn away one who asked for forgiveness or repentance, regardless of circumstance.

The Catholic Church, by saying who can and cannot have communion, goes against the preachings of Jesus Christ, which they profess that they follow.

Such is the irony that is part of the greater idiocy of organized religion.

I don't want to start a big argument here, and I didn't read the link, but I'm assuming this is about refusing communion to Kerry because of his stance on abortion? Did he ask forgiveness for his stance on abortion?

 

[Fatghost]

According to the Christian Bible...

Jesus Christ, the Christian savior whom the Catholics and all other Christian believers follow, would not turn away a soul. Jesus befriended whores, slaves, the poor, homeless, tax collectors, ...anyone. Never would He turn away one who asked for forgiveness or repentance, regardless of circumstance.

The Catholic Church, by saying who can and cannot have communion, goes against the preachings of Jesus Christ, which they profess that they follow.

Such is the irony that is part of the greater idiocy of organized religion.

Not really. Jesus didn't approve or support any of the bad behavior of whores or tax collectors or adulterers or thieves or murderers. He forgave them their sins when they repented, and told them to go and sin no more.

The Bible clearly says in many places that if a member of a church isn't living up to the teachings of the church, they can be excommunicated, shunned, or denied access to rites until such time as they repent and stop sinning.


I don't go to church myself and even I know that.


Ratzinger is perfectly within his rights to ask church pastors to deny communion or other rites to catholics who don't follow catholic practices or beliefs.

 

[tetsuoxb]

Not really. Jesus didn't approve or support any of the bad behavior of whores or tax collectors or adulterers or thieves or murderers. He forgave them their sins when they repented, and told them to go and sin no more.

The Bible clearly says in many places that if a member of a church isn't living up to the teachings of the church, they can be excommunicated, shunned, or denied access to rites until such time as they repent and stop sinning.


I don't go to church myself and even I know that.


Ratzinger is perfectly within his rights to ask church pastors to deny communion or other rites to catholics who don't follow catholic practices or beliefs.

Im shocked! An intelligent post on the topic of Catholicism AND Politics.

You, sir, win my post of the day award.

 

[videogamer]

Ratzinger is perfectly within his rights to ask church pastors to deny communion or other rites to catholics who don't follow catholic practices or beliefs.

What kind of rights are you talking about? Rights under a government?

 

[Rorschach]

Catholics against abortion?! WTF!

 

[Fatghost]

What kind of rights are you talking about? Rights under a government?

Well, the Pope is the head of State for Vactican City, so yes, rights under a government. As well as within his rights as the head of a private organization, and within his rights as a religious leader, and within his rights as an individual trying to persuade people to follow his point of view.

Generally, if you don't agree with the position of the Catholic church on certain issues. then don't be a catholic. No one is holding a gun to John Kerry's head and forcing him to be a catholic. He could easily join a Christian denomination with progressive views on issues like Abortion and Contraception and Gay marriage. If you don't believe what the catholic church teaches, then maybe you shouldn't be catholic. There are many other churches out there you could join instead.

 

[LakeEarth]

Such is the irony that is part of the greater idiocy of organized religion.

Ladies and gentlemen, if irony were strawberries, we'd be all drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

 

[Boomer]

Catholics against abortion?! WTF!

:lol

Ladies and gentlemen, if irony were strawberries, we'd be all drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

:lol :lol

 

[midnightguy]

According to the Christian Bible...

Jesus Christ, the Christian savior whom the Catholics and all other Christian believers follow, would not turn away a soul. Jesus befriended whores, slaves, the poor, homeless, tax collectors, ...anyone. Never would He turn away one who asked for forgiveness or repentance, regardless of circumstance.

The Catholic Church, by saying who can and cannot have communion, goes against the preachings of Jesus Christ, which they profess that they follow.

Such is the irony that is part of the greater idiocy of organized religion.

I agree. and this is a major reason why the Catholic Church is an apostasy /
THE Apostasy, an abomination, the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon", and so on.

 

[FoneBone]

I agree. and this is a major reason why the Catholic Church is an apostasy /
THE Apostasy, an abomination, the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon", and so on.

You agree that organized religion is "idiocy?" Going by your posting record, that doesn't make much sense, no offense.

 

[videogamer]

Well, the Pope is the head of State for Vactican City, so yes, rights under a government. As well as within his rights as the head of a private organization, and within his rights as a religious leader, and within his rights as an individual trying to persuade people to follow his point of view.

Back when he sent out that message, he was not pope. The reason I made that post was because.. obviously, governments (the US in this case because the letter was sent there) may consider this to be free speech.

Going back closer to the OP's post: Besides providing a moment to remember Kerry and what he has done, there are other things that this action may allow for/forbode. AFAIK, the Pope chooses the cardinals and the cardinals choose the pople. This can allow for conservativism and limit outside influence or even influence from the followers. What this action may symbolize is the current pope's hardline positions. Is it possible that this may allow for the peeling off of progressive parishoners? Perhaps, but if it does occur, the Church may then opt to reform itself in response.

I've noticed your edit, and I'd like to note that it's not as simple as choosing to not be a Catholic. The Catholic Church is an organization with tentacles all over the planet, and they carry immense social, and thus political clout. As result, they are able to be heavily influencial in matters such as abortion and gay marriages. Outsiders may not be able to force much change in the Church, but should enough followers leave the religion, the Church may change it's positions and it's actions. For instance, the Church changed some of it's ways in South America in response to heavy losses to Evangelical churches. Perhaps it can do the same regarding social issues if enough minds are changed here.

 

[videogamer]

It was Ratzinger who in a famous 1986 document defined homosexuality as “a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil.” In the 1990s, Ratzinger led a campaign against the theology of religious pluralism, insisting that the traditional teaching of Christ as the lone and unique savior of humanity not be compromised. This effort culminated in the 2001 document Dominus Iesus, which asserted that non-Christians are in a “gravely deficient situation” with respect to Christians.

These are perhaps the best-known, but hardly the only controversial declarations of Ratzinger over the years. He once called Buddhism an “auto-erotic spirituality,” and inveighed against rock music as a “vehicle of anti-religion.”

Don't know about the context of the quotes, but they are interesting. But remember that you, I, Ratzinger, and Ann Coulter have free speech rights.

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/update/conclave/pt041905g.htm

 

[Fatghost]

Back when he sent out that message, he was not pope. The reason I made that post was because.. obviously, governments (the US in this case because the letter was sent there) may consider this to be free speech.

Going back closer to the OP's post: Besides providing a moment to remember Kerry and what he has done, there are other things that this action may allow for/forbode. AFAIK, the Pope chooses the cardinals and the cardinals choose the pople. This can allow for conservativism and limit outside influence or even influence from the followers. What this action may symbolize is the current pope's hardline positions. Is it possible that this may allow for the peeling off of progressive parishoners? Perhaps, but if it does occur, the Church may then opt to reform itself in response.

The church isn't under any obligation to change though. If progressive Catholics don't like orthodoxy, they are perfectly free to change to a different denomination or even start their own church.

I've noticed your edit, and I'd like to note that it's not as simple as choosing to not be a Catholic. The Catholic Church is an organization with tentacles all over the planet, and they carry immense social, and thus political clout. As result, they are able to be heavily influencial in matters such as abortion and gay marriages. Outsiders may not be able to force much change in the Church, but should enough followers leave the religion, the Church may change it's positions and it's actions. For instance, the Church changed some of it's ways in South America in response to heavy losses to Evangelical churches. Perhaps it can do the same regarding social issues if enough minds are changed here.

You contradicted yourself there. If progressive Catholics leave the church, and if they were important to the church, then the church would change to reflect their views. If they are not important to the church, then the church won't change. End of the day, if you're a catholic but don't agree with orthadox catholic positions, there are other Christian churches that would probably love to have you and are more compatible with your views.

As for the advocacy power of the Catholic church - they are no different than other major political/social/economic organizations. The Catholic Church tries to lobby governments to move against abortion, and other organizations try to lobby governments to support abortion. If society wants abortion, it will have it, if it doesn't, then it won't. It isn't like the Catholic church is raising an army and will invade our houses by force to confiscate our condoms.

 

[videogamer]

The church isn't under any obligation to change though. If progressive Catholics don't like orthodoxy, they are perfectly free to change to a different denomination or even start their own church.

Did I ever say that the church was under an obligation to change? Think of it as a market. Ideally, a boycott would force them them to offer a better product.

You contradicted yourself there.

Where again? If it is the word "outsider", I originally meant to use the pronoun "me", but I decided to use broader wording.

As for the advocacy power of the Catholic church - they are no different than other major political/social/economic organizations. The Catholic Church tries to lobby governments to move against abortion, and other organizations try to lobby governments to support abortion. If society wants abortion, it will have it, if it doesn't, then it won't.

But how does society decide if it wants abortion? The Catholic church has influence on the population, and the goal is to find a way to change this outlet.

It isn't like the Catholic church is raising an army and will invade our houses by force to confiscate our condoms.

I didn't say that, and I don't know how you would have gotten that conclusion from my words. What the Catholic church does is that it provides a bully pulpit of sorts that can influence populations and thus governments to restrict abortion.

 

[Alcibiades]

yeah I see nothing wrong with denying communion, that Jesus reference is in line with the Church's stance on forgiveness...

btw, is it just me or does the new Pope have a girly voice?

 

[videogamer]

:lol

If you were serious, go look up "rites."

I thought that it was pretty obvious that Ratzinger had the legal right in America to do that. In other words, I felt it was a pretty irrelevant point that may somehow be construed to suggest that he did what was "right".

Do his actions fit in my ideal worldview? No. So while he has the legal right to do what he did, I want to know what can be done to discourage such acts. That I find to be a much more interesting question.

 

[AntoneM]

OMGWTF, a GAF first? did the Catholics win this one?

Well, maybe. To me the ability to switch churches has no relevancy since, and correct me if I wrong, the Catholic Church believes it is the only way to salvation through Christ and that your soul will not go to heaven unless you are a Catholic as defoned by the Catholic Church. So the choice you're left with, if I'm right, is to stay Catholic and change your views on abortion or have your soul forever be in purgatory or hell. That's not much of a choice. As for whether denying communion for pro-choicers is hypocritical, I'll have to leave that one up to you guys, I don't know too much about Catholosism. I was baptised Catholic but my family stopped going to church around the time I turned 9.

 

[BobbyRobby]

If you have a mortal sin on your soul, you're not allowed to recieve communion.

Speaking of which, is masturbation still considered a mortal sin? When I was younger no priest really gave a totally straight answer.

 

[midnightguy]

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Rev 13:11-12).