• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

New Yorker: Libertarianism and the Politics of Silicon Valley

Status
Not open for further replies.

bomma_man

Member
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/05/27/130527fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all

Long article but well worth the read. I could quote the whole thing.

The industry’s splendid isolation inspires cognitive dissonance, for it’s an article of faith in Silicon Valley that the technology industry represents something more utopian, and democratic, than mere special-interest groups. The information revolution (the phrase itself conveys a sense of business exceptionalism) emerged from the Bay Area counterculture of the sixties and seventies, influenced by the hobbyists who formed the Homebrew Computer Club and by idealistic engineers like Douglas Engelbart, who helped develop the concept of hypertext and argued that digital networks could boost our “collective I.Q.” From the days of Apple’s inception, the personal computer was seen as a tool for personal liberation; with the arrival of social media on the Internet, digital technology announced itself as a force for global betterment. The phrase “change the world” is tossed around Silicon Valley conversations and business plans as freely as talk of “early-stage investing” and “beta tests.”

When financiers say that they’re doing God’s work by providing cheap credit, and oilmen claim to be patriots who are making the country energy-independent, no one takes them too seriously—it’s a given that their motivation is profit. But when technology entrepreneurs describe their lofty goals there’s no smirk or wink.
“Many see their social responsibility fulfilled by their businesses, not by social or political action,” one young entrepreneur said of his colleagues. “It’s remarkably convenient that they can achieve all their goals just by doing their start-up.” He added, “They actually think that Facebook is going to be the panacea for many of the world’s problems. It isn’t cynicism—it’s arrogance and ignorance.”

A few years ago, when Barack Obama visited one Silicon Valley campus, an employee of the company told a colleague that he wasn’t going to take time from his work to go hear the President’s remarks, explaining, “I’m making more of a difference than anybody in government could possibly make.” In 2006, Google started its philanthropic arm, Google.org, but other tech giants did not follow its lead. At places like Facebook, it was felt that making the world a more open and connected place could do far more good than working on any charitable cause. Two of the key words in industry jargon are “impactful” and “scalable”—rapid growth and human progress are seen as virtually indistinguishable. One of the mottoes posted on the walls at Facebook is “Move fast and break things.” Government is considered slow, staffed by mediocrities, ridden with obsolete rules and inefficiencies.

The conflicting pressures of Silicon Valley—its work ethic, status consciousness, idealism, and greed—were summed up in an ad for the University of San Francisco that I spotted on a public bus shelter south of Market Street: “Become wildly successful without becoming a jerk no one likes. Change the world from here.”

The technology industry, by sequestering itself from the community it inhabits, has transformed the Bay Area without being changed by it—in a sense, without getting its hands dirty. Throughout most of Silicon Valley’s history, its executives have displayed a libertarian instinct to stay as far from politics and government as possible. Reid Hoffman described the attitude this way: “Look what I can do as an individual myself—everyone else should be able to do that, too. I can make a multibillion-dollar company with a little bit of investment. Why can’t the whole world do that?” But the imperative to change the world has recently led some Silicon Valley leaders to imagine that the values and concepts behind their success can be uploaded to the public sphere.

“People in tech, when they talk about why they started their company, they tend to talk about changing the world,” Green said. “I think it’s actually genuine. On the other hand, people are just completely disconnected from politics. Partly because the operating principles of politics and the operating principles of tech are completely different.” Whereas politics is transactional and opaque, based on hierarchies and handshakes, Green argued, technology is empirical and often transparent, driven by data.

Andreessen described to me the stages of the industry’s attitude toward political engagement. The first, prevailing in the seventies and eighties, was “Just leave us alone. Let us do our thing.” T. J. Rodgers, the founder of Cypress Semiconductor, said that anyone who got involved in politics was making a big mistake, warning, “If you talk to these people, they’ll just get in your ass.” The Valley’s libertarianism—which ignores the federal government’s crucial role in providing research money—is less doctrinal than instinctive. Andreessen said, “It’s very possible for somebody to show up here—a twenty-four-year-old engineer who’s completely state of the art in building companies and products—and have had absolutely no exposure at all to politics, social issues, history. When the government shows up, it’s bad news. They go, ‘Oh, my God, government is evil, I didn’t understand how bad it was. We must fight it.’ ”

Horowitz—who is the son of David Horowitz, the radical turned conservative polemicist—attributed Silicon Valley’s strain of libertarianism to the mentality of engineers. “Libertarianism is, theoretically, a relatively elegant solution,” he said. “People here have a great affinity for that kind of thing—they want elegance. Most people here are relatively apolitical and not that knowledgeable about how these large complicated systems of societies work. Libertarianism has got a lot of the false positives that Communism had, in that it’s a very simple solution that solves everything.” The intellectual model is not the dour Ayn Rand but Bay Area philosophers and gurus who imagine that limitless progress can be achieved through technology. Stewart Brand, now seventy-four, popularized the term “personal computer” and made “hacker” the tech equivalent of freedom fighter. His Whole Earth Catalog—a compendium of hippie products, generated by users, that is now considered an analog precursor of the Web—can still be found on desks at Facebook.

Technology can be an answer to incompetence and inefficiency. But it has little to say about larger issues of justice and fairness, unless you think that political problems are bugs that can be fixed by engineering rather than fundamental conflicts of interest and value. Evgeny Morozov, in his new book “To Save Everything, Click Here,” calls this belief “solutionism.” Morozov, who is twenty-nine and grew up in a mining town in Belarus, is the fiercest critic of technological optimism in America, tirelessly dismantling the language of its followers. “They want to be ‘open,’ they want to be ‘disruptive,’ they want to ‘innovate,’ ” Morozov told me. “The open agenda is, in many ways, the opposite of equality and justice. They think anything that helps you to bypass institutions is, by default, empowering or liberating. You might not be able to pay for health care or your insurance, but if you have an app on your phone that alerts you to the fact that you need to exercise more, or you aren’t eating healthily enough, they think they are solving the problem.”

Steven Johnson, the author of many books about technology, recently published “Future Perfect: The Case for Progress in a Networked Age.” Johnson argues that traditional institutions and ideologies are giving way to a new philosophy, called “peer progressivism,” in which collective problems are solved incrementally, through the decentralized activity of countless interconnected equals—a process that mirrors the dynamics of the Internet. In politics, peer progressivism could mean the rise of “citizen journalists” tweeting and posting on social media, or an innovation that Johnson calls “liquid democracy,” which would allow you to transfer your vote to a friend who is more knowledgeable about, say, the school board. In this thin book, Johnson takes progress as a given, without seriously considering counter-arguments about stagnation and decline. It would be foolish to argue that America’s mainstream media and political system are functioning as they should, but it’s worth wondering if “peer networks” really have the answers. An essay in the journal New Media & Society, by Daniel Kreiss, of Yale; Megan Finn, of Berkeley; and Fred Turner, of Stanford, points out that a system of “peer production” could be less egalitarian than the scorned old bureaucracies, in which “a person could achieve the proper credentials and thus social power whether they came from wealth or poverty, an educated family or an ignorant one.” In other words, “peer networks” could restore primacy to “class-based and purely social forms of capital,” returning us to a society in which what really matters is whom you know, not what you could accomplish.

Newsom’s successor, Ed Lee, was elected with the support of a technology investor named Ron Conway, who organized several hundred companies into an interest group called sf.citi. Conway told me, “We got Lee elected mayor, and he did two things for the tech community: he stopped the private companies’ stock-option tax, and he kept Twitter in San Francisco.” Conway also spent money to help a challenger take Olague’s seat on the Board of Supervisors. (Olague was considered an obstacle to development projects.) Once in office, Mayor Lee intervened in regulatory matters in ways that benefitted two companies in which Conway is a major investor. Conway is involved in Zuckerberg’s immigration-reform group, and after the Newtown massacre he enlisted members of sf.citi in a campaign against gun violence. But the main purpose of sf.citi is to persuade the city government to make policies that benefit the technology industry. When I asked Conway if sf.citi’s interests might ever diverge from the general public’s, he couldn’t think how they might. The handshake between the industry and City Hall is so strong that people in San Francisco insisted on going off the record before saying that Lee has made himself look like Conway’s man.

One question for technology boosters—maybe the crucial one—is why, during the decades of the personal computer and the Internet, the American economy has grown so slowly, average wages have stagnated, the middle class has been hollowed out, and inequality has surged. Why has a revolution that is supposed to be as historically important as the industrial revolution coincided with a period of broader economic decline? I posed the question in one form or another to everyone I talked to in the Bay Area. The answers became a measure of how people in the technology industry think about the world beyond it.

Few of them had given the topic much consideration. One young techie wondered if it was really true; another said that the problem was a shortage of trained software engineers; a third noted that the focus of the tech industry was shifting from engineering to design, and suggested that this would open up new job opportunities. Sam Lessin, who leads Facebook’s “identity product group,” which is in charge of the social network’s Timeline feature, posited that traditional measures of wealth might not be applicable in the era of social media. He said, “I think as communication technology gets less expensive, and people can entertain each other and interact with each other and do things for each other much more efficiently, what’s actually going to happen is that the percentage of the economy that’s in cash is going to decline. Some people will choose to build social capital rather than financial capital. Given the opportunity to spend an extra hour or an extra dollar, they will choose to spend time with friends. It might be that the G.D.P., in the broader sense, is actually growing quite quickly—it’s just that we’re not measuring it properly.”

There's also a follow up article here.

Given the amount of Gaffers in tech related industries I'd be interested in hearing what people think.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
They are mapping a personal political philosophy to a business one. There are plenty of actual Libertarian employees - but they're still a very small minority. Most tech employees are liberal in my experience with bosses more likely to be libertarian or Republican and investors more likely to be Republican.

the actual objectivists I've met are weirdoes and stick out like a sore thumb.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Horowitz—who is the son of David Horowitz, the radical turned conservative polemicist—attributed Silicon Valley’s strain of libertarianism to the mentality of engineers. “Libertarianism is, theoretically, a relatively elegant solution,” he said. “People here have a great affinity for that kind of thing—they want elegance. Most people here are relatively apolitical and not that knowledgeable about how these large complicated systems of societies work. Libertarianism has got a lot of the false positives that Communism had, in that it’s a very simple solution that solves everything.” The intellectual model is not the dour Ayn Rand but Bay Area philosophers and gurus who imagine that limitless progress can be achieved through technology. Stewart Brand, now seventy-four, popularized the term “personal computer” and made “hacker” the tech equivalent of freedom fighter. His Whole Earth Catalog—a compendium of hippie products, generated by users, that is now considered an analog precursor of the Web—can still be found on desks at Facebook.

I've never quite understood personally how engineering leads to libertarian philosophies, seeing as my engineering background very solidly informs my more socialist perspectives, namely "ideals take a backseat to results". I guess the bolded gets to the heart of it: if you don't perceive society as a series of complex and interconnected systems then you may not approach it intellectually the same way you would approach other systems as an engineer.
 
At places like Facebook, it was felt that making the world a more open and connected place could do far more good than working on any charitable cause.

While it's better to do both I'm not sure they're wrong.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
I've never quite understood personally how engineering leads to libertarian philosophies, seeing as my engineering background very solidly informs my more socialist perspectives, namely "ideals take a backseat to results". I guess the bolded gets to the heart of it: if you don't perceive society as a series of complex and interconnected systems then you may not approach it intellectually the same way you would approach other systems as an engineer.

in my experience it's been the more sheltered phenoms from small towns - and oddly enough - only children. (no siblings)

but there is definitely a "type." most engineers I know are liberal pragmatists.
 

dramatis

Member
Definitely very good read, if lengthy. I actually read it earlier this morning, but needed some time to digest.

I thought people who would be into technology would actually endeavor to be better informed about the world, but it seems that isn't always the case.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
in my experience it's been the more sheltered phenoms from small towns - and oddly enough - only children. (no siblings)

but there is definitely a "type." most engineers I know are liberal pragmatists.

The small town thing I can buy. I'm on record as saying that I think various flavors of libertarianism can work in very small populations, and if you come from an environment where that kind of thing could work I can see why your attitude would be "why not just scale it up?".
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Libertarianism is like religion. People take bits and pieces of it that make sense to them and hold onto them and disregard (or are ignorant to) the rest.
 
I thought people who would be into technology would actually endeavor to be better informed about the world, but it seems that isn't always the case.

I've never linked an interest in tech with an interest with the broader world, but that could just be geek stereotypes or a history of crunch cycles messing with my head.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
I think most engineers have a libertarian streak in them. Whether they lean more dem or republican depends on the area and the industry haha. I think the libertarianism comes from the fact that engineers tend to strive for efficiency in all things, and the government is the opposite of that so there is a natural distrust when tax season comes around.
 

bomma_man

Member
Just anecdotally people I know that are in engineering and scientific fields lack an interest in society and politics purely because they're not binary; there is no 'right' answer (personally that's why I love them).

But anyway I think the parts about how idealistic they are about the role of technology and the potential consequences of that re equality are the most interesting take aways from the piece.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Just anecdotally people I know that are in engineering and scientific fields lack an interest in society and politics purely because they're not binary; there is no 'right' answer (personally that's why I love them).

But anyway I think the parts about how idealistic they are about the role of technology and the potential consequences of that re equality are the most interesting take aways from the piece.

What kind of engineer believes in binary answers? :/
Engineering is all about doing the best you can with what you have
 

3rdman

Member
"Libertarianism has got a lot of the false positives that Communism had, in that it’s a very simple solution that solves everything."

This! I've been trying to think of a way of best expressing my view on Libertarianism and that's it...You can throw in "Fair Tax" in this equivalent as well.
 

Guevara

Member
I don't think you can be super successful at 20-24 and not come out with a skewed view of the world. And I'm not just talking about the bilionaires, there are a lot of engineers out here making $200k two years out of college.
 
I definitely see that happening a bit here. The assumption that if you are doing well, you are naturally doing good for the world. This area is in danger of becoming a highly insulated bubble if it isn't one already.
 

Bombadil

Banned
A former friend of mine is an engineer. We both attended university together, and he is a libertarian as well. He always made it clear that he hated Obama and only registered as a Republican so he could vote for Ron Paul. He is a smart dude, no doubt, and he's very driven. But I disagree with his politics. I stopped being his friend after he basically forced me to go to a casino with him and give him 80 dollars to play Blackjacks. He lost all my money in a minute but made a killing with his own money. On the car ride home, I quietly waited for him to give me 80 dollars of his winnings. We had been friends for a long time and I thought he would do that for me. But he just said bye when he dropped me off. From that point on I decided I didn't want a friend like that.

I like Ron Swanson, though.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
I definitely see that happening a bit here. The assumption that if you are doing well, you are naturally doing good for the world. This area is in danger of becoming a highly insulated bubble if it isn't one already.

I see that a lot with my friends who went into engineering.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Libertarianism is like religion. People take bits and pieces of it that make sense to them and hold onto them and disregard (or are ignorant to) the rest.

I think we all do that with our politics too. I like universal healthcare but I don't like Obama reading my texts.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I think most engineers have a libertarian streak in them. Whether they lean more dem or republican depends on the area and the industry haha. I think the libertarianism comes from the fact that engineers tend to strive for efficiency in all things, and the government is the opposite of that so there is a natural distrust when tax season comes around.

I think the difference may be then that I don't operate on the belief that the free market is necessarily more efficient then the government.
 

Draft

Member
Libertarianism is the perfect political ideology for young, rich males, so it being popular in Silicon Valley is not surprising.
 
From what I've seen, most of my engineering buddies (like me) are liberal, at least socially. But then I only get into politics with the people I agree with on things.
 
I think the difference may be then that I don't operate on the belief that the free market is necessarily more efficient then the government.

Aye, and you said above that you think Engineering lends itself to Socialism on the grounds that it's about results over ideology, as if anyone thinks that's what they're doing. Libertarians think their results will be the best, just like anarchists, communists, druids, hippies and fascists. That's why I don't think engineering "lends itself" to anything specific, because everyone basically thinks "engineering is awesome, and what *I* believe is awesome. Therefore it reinforces my views!"
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Aye, and you said above that you think Engineering lends itself to Socialism on the grounds that it's about results over ideology, as if anyone thinks that's what they're doing. Libertarians think their results will be the best, just like anarchists, communists, druids, hippies and fascists. That's why I don't think engineering "lends itself" to anything specific, because everyone basically thinks "engineering is awesome, and what *I* believe is awesome. Therefore it reinforces my views!"

Right, but we have examples of socializing systems such as healthcare resulting in lots of positive variable increases. Libertarianism doesn't make sense to be as an engineer because no-one's tried it successfully. There are no results to look at. We don't know that it gets results. Same goes for systems such as large-scale anarchy. I don't believe in socializing important systems because I think "sharing is good by its own virtues", I believe in socializing various systems because generally when I look at countries that have attempted it I see that it has generally worked. For the exact same reason I would not at all call myself a supporter of communism.

My political path has not been to take the ideology I was raised with and then find justifications for it. Its been to explore a lot of various political philosophies (including libertarianism for a brief period, yes, I did) and then examine just how they were actually functioning (or not functioning)
 
Right, but we have examples of socializing systems such as healthcare resulting in lots of positive variable increases. Libertarianism doesn't make sense to be as an engineer because no-one's tried it successfully. There are no results to look at.

Sure, but we have examples of it working really poorly, too. And there are, obviously, examples of elements of Libertarianism working, but eitherway, that's not really the point; The people in question genuinely believe it, and so use their taking part in things like engineering to associate the two. Again, the point is that Libertarians, right or wrong, don't wilfully ignore facts, even if you think that's actually what they're doing.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Hmm. So a few generations of young technologists gained personal power in a medium that allows them to remain cut off from the concerns of the world in a world of simplified absolutes and schematics. And they've got no real idea how the planet works or what most of humanity is like.

Sounds right, based on the people I have encountered from that world.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Sure, but we have examples of it working really poorly, too. And there are, obviously, examples of elements of Libertarianism working, but eitherway, that's not really the point; The people in question genuinely believe it, and so use their taking part in things like engineering to associate the two. Again, the point is that Libertarians, right or wrong, don't wilfully ignore facts, even if you think that's actually what they're doing.

And I would advocate looking at those and trying to determine where they went wrong. You're missing my point, which is that my interest in socializing systems arises not from some belief that its "good" or "right" but because currently some of the best systems in the world in terms of things like healthcare and pre-college education are heavily socialized. I have no ideological investment in its virtues. I don't see how a pragmatic attitude that I associate with the engineering mode of thought doesn't try to look at what is currently working the best to learn from both its sucesses and its failures. Its really easy to return to healthcare since that's the hot topic at the moment, but you do have to willfully ignore facts if you think that, say, the current American healthcare system is more optimal then the systems being tried by many other countries.

Also I'm curious what uniquely libertarian ideas you think have had successful implementations.
 

daycru

Member
A former friend of mine is an engineer. We both attended university together, and he is a libertarian as well. He always made it clear that he hated Obama and only registered as a Republican so he could vote for Ron Paul. He is a smart dude, no doubt, and he's very driven. But I disagree with his politics. I stopped being his friend after he basically forced me to go to a casino with him and give him 80 dollars to play Blackjacks. He lost all my money in a minute but made a killing with his own money. On the car ride home, I quietly waited for him to give me 80 dollars of his winnings. We had been friends for a long time and I thought he would do that for me. But he just said bye when he dropped me off. From that point on I decided I didn't want a friend like that.

I like Ron Swanson, though.

Rational. Self. Interest.
 
And I would advocate looking at those and trying to determine where they went wrong. You're missing my point, which is that my interest in socializing systems arises not from some belief that its "good" or "right" but because currently some of the best systems in the world in terms of things like healthcare and pre-college education are heavily socialized. I don't see how a pragmatic attitude that I associate with the engineering mode of thought doesn't try to look at what is currently working the best to learn from both its sucesses and its failures. Its really easy to return to healthcare since that's the hot topic at the moment, but you do have to willfully ignore facts if you think that, say, the current American healthcare system is more optimal then the systems being tried by many other countries.

You might not equate "good" or "right", but you're equating your analysis of the situation and presuming - as all people do - that it's objectively the correct analysis, and therefore associating with engineering's "whatever works" approach. We all do it, it's how we come to our conclusions. We're basically going round in circles here, but at the end you said "you do have to willfully ignore facts" dot dot dot. But the key word is "wilfully", surely. "Wilfully" suggests intent, in the way you might wilfully look away from a road accident or wilfully ignore your ex girlfriend at a party. Do you really think the Libertarians that believe the US healthcare stem is the best (and I don't know any Libertarians that actually think this, btw - that's not a challenge to find some, because I'm sure they exist, but you'd struggle to find anything in Hayek or Nozick or Mises that chides right with the current US healthcare system which manages to basically have the worst of every system imaginable) do so whilst wilfully ignoring the facts? Or do you think they've simply come to a different conclusion to you but believe as equally strongly as you do that they're correct?

We're just going round in circles, though.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
You might not equate "good" or "right", but you're equating your analysis of the situation and presuming - as all people do - that it's objectively the correct analysis, and therefore associating with engineering's "whatever works" approach. We all do it, it's how we come to our conclusions. We're basically going round in circles here, but at the end you said "you do have to willfully ignore facts" dot dot dot. But the key word is "wilfully", surely. "Wilfully" suggests intent, in the way you might wilfully look away from a road accident or wilfully ignore your ex girlfriend at a party. Do you really think the Libertarians that believe the US healthcare stem is the best (and I don't know any Libertarians that actually think this, btw - that's not a challenge to find some, because I'm sure they exist, but you'd struggle to find anything in Hayek or Nozick or Mises that chides right with the current US healthcare system which manages to basically have the worst of every system imaginable) do so whilst wilfully ignoring the facts? Or do you think they've simply come to a different conclusion to you but believe as equally strongly as you do that they're correct?

We're just going round in circles, though.

Please show me what statistical variables you believe some libertarian implementations have achieved to seemingly positive effect. I'm genuinely curious. Its all about the variables and the information is out there to see that the US healthcare system is terrible with regards to dozens of them. We see system A that has terrible ratings. We see systems B, C, D, E, and F that have significantly better values. If you're aware of that information and your position is still "lets not try to adapt anything from those more successful systems" then I don't know how to describe that other then "willful ignorance"

Again, I don't support any libertarian positions because I haven't been shown convincingly that any of them are responsible for statistical shifts in things I find desirable, and funnily enough the debate never seems to be around arguing that the things maximized are desirable, but that doing so is "the price of freedom" or something similar.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Hmm. So a few generations of young technologists gained personal power in a medium that allows them to remain cut off from the concerns of the world in a world of simplified absolutes and schematics. And they've got no real idea how the planet works or what most of humanity is like.

Sounds right, based on the people I have encountered from that world.

Sounds like most of Reddit, honestly.
 

ronito

Member
You might not equate "good" or "right", but you're equating your analysis of the situation and presuming - as all people do - that it's objectively the correct analysis, and therefore associating with engineering's "whatever works" approach. We all do it, it's how we come to our conclusions. We're basically going round in circles here, but at the end you said "you do have to willfully ignore facts" dot dot dot. But the key word is "wilfully", surely. "Wilfully" suggests intent, in the way you might wilfully look away from a road accident or wilfully ignore your ex girlfriend at a party. Do you really think the Libertarians that believe the US healthcare stem is the best (and I don't know any Libertarians that actually think this, btw - that's not a challenge to find some, because I'm sure they exist, but you'd struggle to find anything in Hayek or Nozick or Mises that chides right with the current US healthcare system which manages to basically have the worst of every system imaginable) do so whilst wilfully ignoring the facts? Or do you think they've simply come to a different conclusion to you but believe as equally strongly as you do that they're correct?

We're just going round in circles, though.
The problem that Libertarianism falls into is exactly the same issue with Communism. The "it just wasn't x enough!" excuse. Look at a lot of the libertarian thinking on the US healthcare debacle. What's their solution? As Ron Paul put it, make it more free market! This is a typical trap that many libertarians fall into just the same way many socialists like to say "the program wasn't big enough."

To both their minds its largely true. But really it's just an excuse.
 
One question for technology boosters—maybe the crucial one—is why, during the decades of the personal computer and the Internet, the American economy has grown so slowly, average wages have stagnated, the middle class has been hollowed out, and inequality has surged. Why has a revolution that is supposed to be as historically important as the industrial revolution coincided with a period of broader economic decline?

Theodre Odorno had a similar philosophy--that as technology replaces human services, humans become less productive.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Technology is ultimately a tool for human expression.

If humans express in a greedy self serving manner, then... technology will make that expression easier!

But, it's possible to tech to a place where the problems of selfishness can be obviated to a large extent.

We just have to make sure that the current level of selfishness doesn't stop our ability to tech to that point... otherwise, we're kinda screwed.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Libertarianism is like religion. People take bits and pieces of it that make sense to them and hold onto them and disregard (or are ignorant to) the rest.

This is the best explanation for it I've seen yet. There are libertarian ideals when taken by themselves have you going "Hmm... that makes sense..."

But then look how they fit into the bigger picture and it all falls apart. Sorta wish Glenn Beck woulda started that libertatian comunity.
 

Slavik81

Member
I've never quite understood personally how engineering leads to libertarian philosophies, seeing as my engineering background very solidly informs my more socialist perspectives, namely "ideals take a backseat to results". I guess the bolded gets to the heart of it: if you don't perceive society as a series of complex and interconnected systems then you may not approach it intellectually the same way you would approach other systems as an engineer.

It's also a bit odd, given that engineers are the political elite of Communist nations in the same way that lawyers tend to be the political elite of western ones.

The Economist said:
WHEN Barack Obama met Hu Jintao, his Chinese counterpart, at the G20 summit in London, it was an encounter not just between two presidents, but also between two professions and mindsets. A lawyer, trained to argue from first principles and haggle over words, was speaking to an engineer, who knew how to build physical structures and keep them intact.

The prevalence of lawyers in America's ruling elite (spotted by a Frenchman, Alexis de Tocqueville, in the 1830s) is stronger than ever. Mr Obama went to Harvard Law School (1988-91); his cabinet contains Hillary Clinton (Yale Law, 1969-73) as secretary of state, Eric Holder (Columbia Law, 1973-76) as attorney-general, Joe Biden (Syracuse University law school, 1965-68) as vice-president and Leon Panetta (Santa Clara University law school, 1960-63) as director of the CIA. That's the tip of the iceberg. Over half of America's senators practised law. Mr Obama's inner circle is sprinkled with classmates from Harvard Law: the dean of that school, Elena Kagan, is solicitor-general; Cass Sunstein, a professor there, is also in the administration.

President Hu, in contrast, is a hydraulic engineer (he worked for a state hydropower company). His predecessor, Jiang Zemin, was an electrical engineer, who trained in Moscow at the Stalin Automobile Works. The prime minister, Wen Jiabao, specialised in geological engineering. The senior body of China's Communist Party is the Politburo's standing committee. Making up its nine members are eight engineers, and one lawyer. This is not a relic of the past: 2007 saw the appointments of one petroleum and two chemical engineers. The last American president to train as an engineer was Herbert Hoover.

(...continued at source)
 
Extremely informative article. I loved it. I unfortunately fall into this shit big time....



"Most people here are relatively apolitical and not that knowledgeable about how these large complicated systems of societies work. Libertarianism has got a lot of the false positives that Communism had, in that it’s a very simple solution that solves everything.”


It was really an "ahhhh fuck" moment for me. I do have an undergraduate degree in history so I suppose I should know more than the average engineer... but..... probably not.
 

mltplkxr

Member
It would make sense that an industry that gave birth to Agile methodologies would not be compatible with how things are done in the public sector.
 
You can sum up libertarianism as I've got mine, fuck you.

If you're 24 and pulling 200k a year, that's a very appealing proposition.

Who cares that San Francisco is filed to the brim with mentally ill homeless people? When your driver takes you places, you don't see them. They don't exist.
 

tokkun

Member
My experience working at one of the companies in the OP is that there are a lot more liberals than libertarians.

The number of libertarians is larger than in the population as a whole, but I would attribute that to engineers being a non-uniform sample of the population that skews towards men in in the 25-50 range.
 

pigeon

Banned
The Gilded Age was a time of enormous growth that attracted millions from Europe. Railroads were the major industry, but the factory system, mining, and labor unions also gained in importance. The growth was interrupted by major nationwide depressions known as the Panic of 1873 and the Panic of 1893. The rapid growth and prosperity came in the North and West. The South remained economically devastated; its economy became increasingly tied to cotton and tobacco production, which suffered low prices. African-Americans in the South were stripped of political power and voting rights. The political landscape was notable in that despite some corruption, turnout was very high and elections between the evenly matched parties were close. The dominant issues were cultural (especially regarding prohibition, education and ethnic and racial groups), and economics (tariffs and money supply)....
The Bourbon Democrats supported a free market policy, with low tariffs, low taxes, less spending and, in general, a Laissez-Faire (hands-off) government. They argued that tariffs made most goods more expensive for the consumer and subsidized the trusts (monopolies). They also denounced imperialism and overseas expansion.[24] By contrast, Republicans insisted that national prosperity depended on industry that paid high wages, and warned that lowering the tariff would be a disaster because low-wage European factories would flood American markets.[25]
Presidential elections between the two major parties were so closely contested that a slight nudge could tip the election in the advantage of either party, and Congress was marked by political stalemate. With support from Union veterans, businessmen, professionals, craftsmen and larger farmers, the GOP (the Republicans) consistently carried the North in presidential elections.[26] The Democrats, often led by Irish Catholics, had a base among Catholics, poorer farmers, and traditional party members....
Science also played an important part in social thought as the work of Charles Darwin became popular. Following Darwin’s idea of natural selection, English philosopher Herbert Spencer proposed the idea of social Darwinism. This new concept justified the stratification of the wealthy and poor and coined the term “survival of the fittest”. Joining Spencer was Yale University professor William Graham Sumner whose book What Social Classes Owe to Each Other (1884) argued that assistance to the poor actually weakens their ability to survive in society. Sumner argued for a laissez-faire and free-market economy. Few people agreed with the social Darwinists, because they ridiculed religion and denounced philanthropy. Henry George proposed a “single tax” in his book Progress and Poverty. The tax would be leveled on the rich and poor alike, with the excess money collected used to equalize wealth and level out society. Norwegian American economist Thorstein Veblen argued in The Theory of the Leisure Class (1899) that the “conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure" of the wealthy had become the basis of social status in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age


They don't mention it on Wikipedia, but the Gilded Age was associated with the extreme rise of the financial sector. And, of course, with the rise of the financial sector came the increased prominence and fame of the city most associated with finance -- New York City. How do you think the traders on Wall Street felt about government spending and taxation?

Everything old is new again.
 
Please show me what statistical variables you believe some libertarian implementations have achieved to seemingly positive effect. I'm genuinely curious. Its all about the variables and the information is out there to see that the US healthcare system is terrible with regards to dozens of them. We see system A that has terrible ratings. We see systems B, C, D, E, and F that have significantly better values. If you're aware of that information and your position is still "lets not try to adapt anything from those more successful systems" then I don't know how to describe that other then "willful ignorance"

Again, I don't support any libertarian positions because I haven't been shown convincingly that any of them are responsible for statistical shifts in things I find desirable, and funnily enough the debate never seems to be around arguing that the things maximized are desirable, but that doing so is "the price of freedom" or something similar.

I think one of the problems is that most western countries have come from a place of very limited government intervention (ie 150 years ago or so), and so areas where this is still the case aren't deemed to be radically libertarian in nature, they're just the way things is. As an example, look at food shopping. Food's pretty important - there aren't many other products that are as vital for life as food except water, and even that falls out of the sky. Yet its sale operates in a really very free market, with great effect. I can't talk for other countries, but in the UK you have a huge range of choice - expensive, high quality stuff sits in shops next to cheaper, higher volume stuff, along with everything in between. You have shops that specialise in certain things, organic shops, small markets or giant stores with everything under one roof. Of course, there is some degree of regulation around it (which doesn't always work. See: Horse burgers) but by and large, there's a huge variety of choice that will fit the vast majority of consumers and allow them to choose what's important to them, with almost all of these shops being able to survive long term. Now, if you apply the same idea to typically public-sector areas - like infrastructure production, school choice, hospitals etc, people think you're a gun-toting Libertard, but not so with food, because it works well.

Also, "freedom" may be somewhat abstract, but that doesn't mean it's not real, and isn't a real "desirable", in the same way something like "tolerance" may be both un-empirical but still desirable, even if it comes in the face of pure efficiency.

Edit: Uhh, "flies in the face" might be better. I left "comes in the face" rather than just replace it because it's funny.

ronito said:
The problem that Libertarianism falls into is exactly the same issue with Communism. The "it just wasn't x enough!" excuse. Look at a lot of the libertarian thinking on the US healthcare debacle. What's their solution? As Ron Paul put it, make it more free market! This is a typical trap that many libertarians fall into just the same way many socialists like to say "the program wasn't big enough."

To both their minds its largely true. But really it's just an excuse.

I think you're right that both crowds are like that. I'd argue that it's not really true (in either cases) and that you don't need to go the whole hog to see benefits. You don't have to remove all legislation in order to liberalise a market - but then, is that a validation of libertarianism without having to go to an extreme, or is it simply a validation of something that's not libertarian precisely because it hasn't gone that far? "I don't know, man. But it keeps my up at night.".

Zaphod said:
I have an honest question, since I've never really thought about it. What is the Libertarian answer to healthcare?

I'm not a "real" Libertarian by any means, but most of the more hardcore ones I know would say that it should be insurance based but with a far more liberalised insurance market than the US has, with government relief for those at the very bottom of society (which, they would claim, is what separates them from anarcho-capitalists).

Personally, I'm more of a fan of the same system as we have in the UK for student loans - you get loans to go to university so you don't need any money at all up front. The loans all come from the govenment and are paid back at basically the rate of inflation. They come directly out of your pay just like an income tax, after a certain threshold. This way, if you're not earning then you don't have to pay anything, and if you're earning a ton, you pay it all back very quickly. I think medical bills could be done in much the same way - that way no one goes without, but those with the means will pay for their own treatment, and those who wish to can try and mitigate any future large bills (and thus large liability) by getting insurance, in much the same way that people get redundancy insurance to mitigate against loss of future earnings. Given a government that controls it own currency, the volume of the loans shouldn't be a problem to the balance sheet. It means that people are, in some way, responsible for their own choices but can always get help if they need it and aren't hounded if they have no money. An insurance market acting in a free market can mitigate any future liability for those that wish to pursue it, and the free access to healthcare (that is, free at the point of use) could encourage a healthy competitive market within healthcare, because you don't have a market where hardly anyone can afford to choose. I think this leverages the strengths of the free market as well as the state to provide a good outcome for basically everyone.

jamesinclair said:
You can sum up libertarianism as I've got mine, fuck you.

Man, I wish I knew how everyone else felt, like you do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom