Kabuki Waq
Member
"FRAME RATE!"
Next-gen graphics cannot improove much over what consoles can do now ?(old pic)
- Thread starter Panajev2001a
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tahrikmili
Member
Actually I once made some 640x480 videos of all 3DMark05 demos on my 9800XT and thorns hosted them somewhere.. maybe he can provide the links again?
EDIT: N/m I found the link and the files are gone.. I still have the originals and can upload somewhere if anyone has the web space. they are about 8mb's each.
EDIT: N/m I found the link and the files are gone.. I still have the originals and can upload somewhere if anyone has the web space. they are about 8mb's each.
tahrikmili
Member
Kabuki Waq said:
My 9800XT which is no longer a high end part can run 3DMark03 Nature demo at 1280x960 without problems. Framerate for this kind of IQ is no longer an issue, it definitely won't be by the time nextgen is released..
gollumsluvslave
Member
DaCocoBrova:-
Maybe in specific cases, but the analogy was more based on technological advances rather than specifics. Look at the image quality of movies now compared to a decade ago for example...
*Generally* movies look a lot better now than 10 years ago - IMO
Games will *generally" look a lot better next-gen than this one.
Of course your point on Spiderman 2 is valid, and is similar to a point made earlier in this thread; Uncanny Valley.
As I said before, I hope that next-gen can use the improvements to improve gameplay & immersivenes, not just to hide poor gameplay with visual bells & whistles.
Maybe in specific cases, but the analogy was more based on technological advances rather than specifics. Look at the image quality of movies now compared to a decade ago for example...
*Generally* movies look a lot better now than 10 years ago - IMO
Games will *generally" look a lot better next-gen than this one.
Of course your point on Spiderman 2 is valid, and is similar to a point made earlier in this thread; Uncanny Valley.
As I said before, I hope that next-gen can use the improvements to improve gameplay & immersivenes, not just to hide poor gameplay with visual bells & whistles.
Deku Tree said:
Which makes it all the more sad that appreciation is going down but time and costs are going up
Eventually we'll hit the absolute transparency buffer where everything you do just isn't noticed at all by 90% of your audience. I actually noticed this with Half Life 2, where so much of the subtleties presnet in the game are being completely ignored by the reviewers and most of the people playing the game (for instance, AI is very much improved outside of combat as well as during combat, but due to the structure of HL2, gamers will only notice that combat AI isn't as elaborate as Halo 2's).
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
Remember the PSX, Dreamcast... Percentage-wise... They (DC especially) had a similar amount of 60fps titles. Although I have never counted how many, most of my DC games are 60fps.
Games should be 60fps... Give us the option to turn on/off affects to maintain that clip.
Warm Machine
Member
Looks at game...
Looks outside...
Yeah I think we still have a way to go.
Looks outside...
Yeah I think we still have a way to go.
Rhindle said:
First it was just "smaller than morrowind," now it's "substantially smaller than morrowind"? Where are you people getting your information?
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/558955p3.html
Sorry Rahul, but to say that that Oblivion pictures looks like a "higher-res" Crystal Chronicles is just...dumb. CC looks like shit in comparison. Even Joe Schmoe could see the difference. What the hell, man. 
You could've picked MGS3 at least, it would've been a better comparison.
You could've picked MGS3 at least, it would've been a better comparison. Here's the problem with graphics as they are headed to right now:
Anyone realize how long and labor intensive it would be to make a full game look as advanced as that minute long airship scene in 3dmark? We're talking a full 12 hour game (let alone a 50 hour RPG), looking THAT good, top to bottom. Not to MENTION the time and intesity it would take to create the gameplay itself.....And then the ANIMATION! That's probably even harder to create to match the graphical quality.
Just to create a "standard game" would require an extreme amount of money + dev-time + highly specialized skilled workers (which BTW skills only very few schools even teach). You think games are expensive to make now? Wait until they all have to look like that airship scene. All this work+money for a game that most likely won't even make a splash at retail. Result (which you can start to see even today) is that big companies will lose a lot of revenue and small companies will die off. Game prices will be forced to increase, and many regular-joes will stop buying.
It's a BIG issue for the industry that I have yet to see addressed by the big players.
Anyone realize how long and labor intensive it would be to make a full game look as advanced as that minute long airship scene in 3dmark? We're talking a full 12 hour game (let alone a 50 hour RPG), looking THAT good, top to bottom. Not to MENTION the time and intesity it would take to create the gameplay itself.....And then the ANIMATION! That's probably even harder to create to match the graphical quality.
Just to create a "standard game" would require an extreme amount of money + dev-time + highly specialized skilled workers (which BTW skills only very few schools even teach). You think games are expensive to make now? Wait until they all have to look like that airship scene. All this work+money for a game that most likely won't even make a splash at retail. Result (which you can start to see even today) is that big companies will lose a lot of revenue and small companies will die off. Game prices will be forced to increase, and many regular-joes will stop buying.
It's a BIG issue for the industry that I have yet to see addressed by the big players.
jett said:Sorry Rahul, but to say that that Oblivion pictures looks like a "higher-res" Crystal Chronicles is just...dumb. CC looks like shit in comparison. Even Joe Schmoe could see the difference. What the hell, man.
Hey, I'm just saying that the one reminds me of the other, and that all obvious features are present in both. You can argue all you want about details and specifics and that I don't know my shit, but my point is perfectly valid purely because I know and have seen non-gamers actually say such things. They're not morons, they just haven't been taught to see a difference like we have. It's pretty apparent that games don't look like real life. But how do you measure, with an untrained eye, the difference in the level of "near-realism" in a game's graphics? Unless you've been looking at them for a while, you don't. It's like with art; most people won't be able to tell the difference between two different paintings' art styles, even though to someone who is used to dealing with them daily it is totally obvious.
It's too bad that no one is willing to see my point of view, but the fact that I have one at all means that there's probably someone else out there who does as well (as a gamer). And I *know* there are non-gamers who do. So.. there you go.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Not thanks, I'd rather play this....Panajev2001a said:The closer this nex-generation is getting, the more I remember how people constantly said that the diminishing returns in graphics were already SO BAD that no real improovement could be notice when the next-generation hits.
We want new gameplay so we tell ourselves that graphics will not sell any system (Jason Rubin's argument is different, it was about the smaller difference each new generation between developers who super-optimize their graphics engines and smaller studios in terms of graphics rendering technology: small studios will not be able to afford the same quality of art content as the bigger studio will geti their hands on thus helping to show a bigger rift between their titles and the competition).
Then... again I go back to looking at this:
Now, think about this image...
Think about the fact that on PCs... right now... as we speak it runs at that quality at something beyond the seconds per frame point.
Think about the fact that the gear that next-generation consoles (if they tap into what semiconductor technology and technical expertise can provide at the moment they finalize development) will be decisively faster than the fastest single Desktop PC you can buy (I do not count Beowulf clusters here
Seeing what people like Konami did with PlayStation 2 like Z.O.E. 2, SH3 and MGS3 or Sony with games like Gran Turismo 4 or another classic like ICO (I was trying to list a limited amount of more recent titles, but ICO is a time-less game IMHO) later in the console's life-cycle I do not think we are ready for all the tricks developers will use to highlight the strengths of the next-generation machines and hide their weaknesses.
Think about that scene being interactive (you can say... move the ship... move the camera, etc...) with that rendering quality at a smooth frame-rate (say even 30 fps.. yes, the dreaded 30 fps... hey this is not a racing game).
I am really saying think about it...
Imagine the lights moving and the shadows dancing along with it... imagine seagulls or other birds flying in the air next to the airship, imagine the air-ship moving along the landscape, lowering in altitude, getting closer to the side of the rocky coast-line and then breezing above the sea's waves.
Do you honestly believe in the "diminsihing returns" in graphics performance argument ? Do you believe still that next-generation consoles will not be able to blow people away graphically speaking at least, not to add more advanced physics and interactivity levels with the game's environments ?
Add to that scene the attention to detail and to cinematic touches that teams like Team Kojima put in their Meal Gear games (think about Metal Gear Solid 3 which still wows me from all points of view includign art and 3D engine used).
This was from last year's 3Dmark '04:
And Morrowind IV: Oblivion's screenshots target quite better graphics IMHO:
^^^
Resolution: 25x25x25mm
Framerate: 20 fps
^^^
Resolution: 150x75x150mm
Framerate: 2.5 fps
I think that when Revolution is revealed and there is no such thing as a holographic anything to do with it, I should get to pick your tag.Gahiggidy said:Not thanks, I'd rather play this....
^^^
Resolution: 25x25x25mm
Framerate: 20 fps
^^^
Resolution: 150x75x150mm
Framerate: 2.5 fps
And I will have NO mercy.
isnt this the same topic we had about dimishing returns many years ago with N64?? give me a break. new technology will continue to improve graphics quality immensely. We have ways to go before dimishing returns begin to really show up. You guys need to see some of these console games on HDTV to see we still have a way's to go.
There is much to be improved upon in rendering power. Just because some people cant imagine it doesnt mean we wont see it. We see it in every console generation.
There is much to be improved upon in rendering power. Just because some people cant imagine it doesnt mean we wont see it. We see it in every console generation.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
The diminshing returns in the ratio of performance: visual quality remains to be seen. I suspect is will start to happen. But, one thing I am sure of is the ratio of graphics: enjoyment. As you notch upwards in graphics, the increased levels of amusement become less and less profound.
Call it the Law of Diminishing Fun©.
Call it the Law of Diminishing Fun©.
radioheadrule83
Banned
I'd like to see the greater power go into creating bigger and better environments, more dynamic worlds, things that would actually make next generations games actually seem new and different instead of just better looking. Something that, even if complex in application, is more user-friendly and enjoyable than current offerings.
I'd actually like to see some devs use their fucking balls and create new game ideas altogether. Like games in the old sense of the word - a scenario and environment, with a set of rules that you and the computer play and abide by, which at it's core is something addictive and fun. If this dynamic aspect I'm talking about were to be employed, perhaps rules could be broken by the player with varying results.. some of them fun. Something unique to the videogames medium (something quite seperate from music and film). Something you can play regardless of skill, yet become skilled at.
I know it's easier said... but basically I'd like some new games. Preferably not another fucking first person shooter.
I'd actually like to see some devs use their fucking balls and create new game ideas altogether. Like games in the old sense of the word - a scenario and environment, with a set of rules that you and the computer play and abide by, which at it's core is something addictive and fun. If this dynamic aspect I'm talking about were to be employed, perhaps rules could be broken by the player with varying results.. some of them fun. Something unique to the videogames medium (something quite seperate from music and film). Something you can play regardless of skill, yet become skilled at.
I know it's easier said... but basically I'd like some new games. Preferably not another fucking first person shooter.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
^^^
We've already got a game that simulates the crime world between three huge cities! How much larger of a game world can we get? Model the inside's of each and every building? Let you travel the entire state of California? Program unique physical and behavior characteristics of millions of NPCs?
We've already got a game that simulates the crime world between three huge cities! How much larger of a game world can we get? Model the inside's of each and every building? Let you travel the entire state of California? Program unique physical and behavior characteristics of millions of NPCs?
Tenguman said:
I don't think you have a point, actually. Imagine you are back in the 90s when the playstation was first released. You would watch those incredible CG intros, and be amazed by those graphics. You could think, back then, that a game with those graphics would cost billions to make and would be an almost impossible task, but today we have games with 10x the quality of those CG intros, graphically, and there are lots and lots of games being made. As technology advances, the tools you have to make games also become alot more advanced. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to do a game with 3DMark05 graphics, somewhere in the near future.
Warm Machine
Member
Namco, Koei, Square Enix, Konami, Capcom, etc will have no problem hitting those graphic highs. Why??? Because they already have pipelines in place that they use to make their CG movies. The movie side and the game side is already working together since the shift to the current gen.
It is the companies who outsource the movie work all the time or don't try the high end stuff that are going to get burned going into next gen.
All this said, companies are going to have to pick and choose the projects they work on wisely. A next gen 1 on 1 fighter is going to be easy to make as would be a space combat shoot em up. The GTA style open world limitless posibilities style game is going to be hugely expensive and time consuming to make.
It is the companies who outsource the movie work all the time or don't try the high end stuff that are going to get burned going into next gen.
All this said, companies are going to have to pick and choose the projects they work on wisely. A next gen 1 on 1 fighter is going to be easy to make as would be a space combat shoot em up. The GTA style open world limitless posibilities style game is going to be hugely expensive and time consuming to make.
I think the biggest visual difference in next gen will simplay be the amount of stuff you see moving on screen at once. Even Madden 2007 will seem impressive, with grass and dirt flying up from feet realistically, sideline coaches, players, cheerleaders, camera guys alll active all the time, fully polygonal crowds, etc all moving independentally of the core action on screen. This is the kind of detail that is missing in games today because it really is unnecessary at the end of the day. But it's also the kind of detail that makes things more realistic and impressive.
Not to mention other genres, with fully populated towns and tons of AI. Imagine Las Venturas in GTA with better clarity than wreckless and TONS of pedestrians and cars on the street at once. This is the kind of shit that's going to impress, not necessarilly whether or not Snake's moustache is fur shaded.
Not to mention other genres, with fully populated towns and tons of AI. Imagine Las Venturas in GTA with better clarity than wreckless and TONS of pedestrians and cars on the street at once. This is the kind of shit that's going to impress, not necessarilly whether or not Snake's moustache is fur shaded.
tahrikmili
Member
Gahiggidy said:
I think it's more about us getting older as graphics improve.. Most of the eyecandy games of today mean nothing to me but younger people enjoy it as much as I enjoyed, say, Shadow of the Beast 2 and drooled watching its parallax scrolling..
I drooled over the original Shadow of the Beast and its parallax scrolling on Amiga when I saw it for the first time in July or August '89 at a Software Etc in Chicago. all i had back then was an Apple IIe, an Atari 7800 and Sega Master System. I wanted an Amiga and a Genesis sooooooo badly
OG_Original Gamer
Member
When the GTA series looks like Animatrix, thats when I'll be content. Specifically for the type of gameplay it offers.
All I know is, I really like what they did with Unreal Tournament 2003 with that forest map. You know that map where the sun is beaming down through the trees? If you take a moment to stand still and look at the ground, you can see leafy shadows from the tree above swaying back and forth. 
Now all we need is to see leaves fall off individually from the the tree, blow around in random patterns so the point there a leaf can roll along in the wind, end up on the surface of a river, and float down stream.
Now all we need is to see leaves fall off individually from the the tree, blow around in random patterns so the point there a leaf can roll along in the wind, end up on the surface of a river, and float down stream.
Socreges said:
yup, on all my consoles, xbox and cube look awesome(RE 4 looks badass), non progressive ps2 games look like crap tho. i'll have to give jak 3 a try, I hear it has progressive. Also Guilty Gear X2 is just unbelievably awesome in HD
mainly the lack of widescreen, because i have to run it in stretched mode or cropped mode
cuz grey pillar boxes are horrible
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