RetroGamingUK
Member
I've not read a better summary as to why Microsoft's strategy here is ridiculous and doomed to failure.
This really should be pinned somewhere.
Now that Lisa Su's video dropped today, I can share what I know about next gen "Xbox" since last June.
- Thread starter Proelite
- Start date
I've not read a better summary as to why Microsoft's strategy here is ridiculous and doomed to failure.
This really should be pinned somewhere.
MisterXDTV
Member
4 years from now another 2 generations of AMD GPU hardware will have passed...
And keep in mind that even the new PS5 Pro is still RDNA 2.x to keep compatibility with base PS5, adding RDNA4 ray tracing on top
The technological advancement from RDNA 2 to "RDNA 6/UDNA 2" or whatever they will name it, will be significant
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
hehe, thanks for the flashback laugh. Went straight back to my days at gamestation and the smells of the "great unwashed" Can afford the latest games but not some soap from poundland.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
From working with Microsoft on the PC side, I could see MS rolling out the initiative with Asus and maybe one other partner, if there isnt a traditional Microsoft produced box. MS can get friendly with a checkbook if it is in line with their business push. If they course correct, which they often do, they could just pull the plug.
My question to all this, what is the Xbox hardware team up to? there is a substantial team there, are they just being assigned controllers to design. That would be funny.
What do you think MS need to do to turn it around and have a successful product in the market?
Steve Holt
Member
This is Microsoft we are talking about right?
Introduced $80 games, brazenly lying about future plans, big acquisitions only to shutter studios less than a year later and big hardware price hikes only recently.
We think they are now going to be consumer friendly?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I mean ... that's a bit of a cop out statement.
All consoles are increased in price 'adjusted for inflation' at the time of their release compared to the last ones.
I think the the base PS6 SKU is, at minimum, going to be the same price as the PS5 Pro. Very likely even higher.
Orbital2060
Member
Curious about this; profit in what way? By having a monopoly on being on the AMD chip? Or just from getting direct profit from the sales of the APU? Because I cant tell if it means that, or if there a chance PlayStation BC also will be on AMD chips at some point, and thats where the concerns for a vertical monopoly lie? That Microsoft can build a monopoly of their own in the videogame industry with this arrangement.
Proelite
Member
MS can't benefit from discounts / free stuff unavailable to OEMs now they're competing to sell similar products. As in 1st party Xboxes are directly competing with OEM Xboxes.
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Orbital2060
Member
I see, thanks.
mayham2199
Member
Which is exactly why I don't think this product is meant to do anything other than give their current userbase a place to go. It's the only thing this product actually accomplishes. It lets you keep your Xbox library, and you don't have to move to PS because now you'll get most of their games if not all of them.
Honestly if PS was smart they would immediately announce that all PC ports will be on their own PC store only. If they did that it would kill all incentive to get this product. Then once the product releases and is officially dead they can go back to porting to Steam again.
lastmessiah
Member
Yeah, the only incentive to buy a PC is to...play ports of PlayStation games. Right.
mayham2199
Member
No your misunderstanding. This device isn't going to sell in any sort of numbers that matter to actual PC gamers. This device is for the current Xbox base to move to the new Xbox device and not feel like they are missing out by not having PS games even though PS gamers are getting the Xbox titles. So if PS does that it will put that same userbase back in the same position they are in now which is why should I buy the next Xbox when PS is getting both Xbox/PS games?
Proelite
Member
Not really. They get the entire Steam library + no more "only NOT on Xbox".
mayham2199
Member
I guess that's true but if it was me it would still be a major choice and I would be leaving for PS honestly. Sure they get some of the game that are only missing Xbox but you can just go PS and get it all. On top of having all your trophies and friends in one ecosystem instead of having to switch around through apps.
Unfortunatecookie
Member
I can see that too. I think they should absolutely limit their partners to 1 or 2 OEMs. There's simply too much room for bad products when any OEM can make an Xbox.
Unfortunately, if Microsoft are fully offloading Xbox hardware to a bunch of other companies, their internal hardware team will be relegated to just that; accessories and support for the Xbox APU and miscellaneous third-party Xbox hardware. That would suck, massively.
I think Microsoft can do five things to turn Xbox around:
1. Get the jump on PlayStation by releasing a dedicated Xbox handheld earlier. I'm talking about an actual Xbox handheld and not a PC that's branded as an Xbox. All of the recent PS6 rumors point to a two platform strategy; console + handheld. If Microsoft can't beat Sony in the console space, beat them in the handheld space.
A successful Xbox handheld could be the key to getting millions of PS5 owners to ignore the PS6 handheld and instead, grab an Xbox handheld. Sony's failure with the Vita guarantees that a lot of people are going to take a wait-and-see approach before they invest in another dedicated PlayStation handheld. Microsoft can and should take advantage of this. Now, they can't just make a handheld in 24 months. What they can and should do is find a partner that is already in the handheld space (Lenovo is a good candidate) in order to significantly accelerate the creation of an Xbox handheld. No Windows anywhere; a pure Xbox handheld that has a great UI and plays and streams any and all future Xbox games.
2. Form as deep of a relationship with Nintendo as possible. Xbox is clearly not doing great in a lot of markets -- Japan and the entirety of Europe being key among them. Nintendo is the opposite, as they've become dominant in Japan and will more than likely be #1 or #2 in Europe depending on the country. The opportunity for Microsoft is to pair Xbox hardware and software with the Switch 2; sort of like the Wii60 'movement' decades ago, but this time, actual big bucks being put behind the association. The key is for Xbox to compliment the Switch and vice versa. Get people thinking about Xbox when they're buying Switch 2 stuff. People don't talk about mindshare as much, but it's still a real customer persuading phenomena. If people start seeing Xbox everywhere they see Nintendo, they will start to believe that the best combo for gaming is a Nintendo and Xbox device.
3. Radically different controller. I genuinely believe Xbox consoles have failed against PlayStation because of two reasons: one, they lacked great games for too long and two, they lacked a new controller. Every single PlayStation and every single Nintendo console ever made have shipped with a new, different controller. The controller is, not-so-secretly, the key to making a console feel like a new next-generation experience. Microsoft should break any future compatibility with the current Xbox controller and launch a brand new radical controller. The only controller that they should continue to support should be the accessibility controller -- and even that should be updated after enough time has passed. The Elite, the standard XSX/XSS controller, all current third-party controllers, current arcade sticks etc; throw them out the window. Features that people think are useless -- such as the touch pad and the speakers in the DualSense -- have made PlayStation controllers feel like they're more in line with touch devices (i.e., smartphones) than everything else on the market. A good start towards a radical controller would be to start thinking about ideas like a controller you can split in half, a controller that can change it's face based on what game you're playing etc. Get away from the archaic, static, boring Xbox controller and introduce a radical, living, next-generation input device.
4. Radically different branding, promotion, and advertising strategy. Xbox messaging, for over 15 years now, has been the exact same. It's the neon green, Mountain Dew, gamer fuel, harsh angles everywhere branding that's paired with a loud CAPS LOCK style of communication. With the amount of developers and IP that Xbox now owns, it makes zero sense to continue leaning into this quick cut edgy fuck yeah dude look at all of this shit angle. It just feels like a relic of the Xbox 360 days that they never figured out had run it's course. I'm not saying they should have a sleep inducing, prescription medicine-esque brand strategy. But they should take a much less slime green approach to their branding. In the same way they introduced Kinect with a purple/lime green combo, they should introduce the future of Xbox with a completely different color scheme. They should get away from the color green entirely and introduce a completely new brand identity. Currently, blue is PlayStation, green is Xbox, and red is Nintendo. Yellow, orange, white, purple, teal, black etc.; plenty of colors available to choose from. As for the brand 'personality', they just need to stop courting the Jez Corden's of the world and start going after significantly more emotionally stable people. I don't mean that as an insult. There are simply too many people that Xbox proudly associates with who genuinely -- and I'm being serious -- make you never want to tell people you have an Xbox. That's horrendous for word of mouth and positive brand promotion. Get people associating Xbox with something that doesn't have caffeine, a passive aggressive X account, or an explosion.
5. Go after emerging markets and invest more in Europe and Japan. Now is the worst time for Xbox to limit it's marketing and or retreat from massive markets. Even if their current console sales have collapsed (on a global scale), the best way back to being competitive is to slowly rebuild your audience in countries that your competitor is thriving in and in countries your competitor hasn't started crushing. PlayStation is significantly more popular than Xbox, but that doesn't mean people will just blindly buy PlayStation hardware. We saw what happened when Sony got cocky and believed people were sheep, and based on how PlayStation is currently making decisions, they run the real risk of repeating the PS3 generation with the PS6. There's a growing vibe that the people at PlayStation are out of touch with what their core audience wants; $700 consoles that don't come with stands, more focus on TV shows, GaaS everything, no live PlayStation events and just boring State of Plays etc. I say all of that to say that PlayStation's current lack of focus can open up a real opportunity for Microsoft to show up -- in emerging markets and other countries -- with a product that purely focuses on games and games alone. Price, ease-of-use, and localization are key in EMs and non-English speaking territories. If Microsoft makes great investments in these markets, they can find themselves being the face of gaming in them. Again, PlayStation is significantly more popular than Xbox so it won't be easy. But working with local developers, retailers, brands, artists, charities, events, sponsoring teams etc. This is how you start the process of getting people to see Xbox as a meaningful competitor again.
Unfortunatecookie
Member
They genuinely run the risk of falling into a decade+ of high prices, confusing messaging, too many purchase options, and fractured customer support. That will kill any and all chances of Xbox hardware ever being competitive again.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Great post. I agree with pretty much all of this.
Winning over consumers again is not an impossible task but its a samn hard one. Not sure if MS has the chops with xbox but we will see.
If we get a better gaming windows from this ill be happy with that tbh.
SupremeJ
Neo Member
The point is: will the new desktop Xbox console be released in 2026?
Xbox 360 slim
Member
Xbox doesn't need to ditch the green, what? It's like telling the yankees to take the pinstripes off their uniforms.
Who doubted me?
Post in thread 'Xbox FY23 Q4 gaming revenue increased 1% year-over-year (HW down 13%)' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/xbox...r-over-year-hw-down-13.1659152/post-268225206
Post in thread 'Xbox FY23 Q4 gaming revenue increased 1% year-over-year (HW down 13%)' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/xbox...r-over-year-hw-down-13.1659152/post-268225206
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rnlval
Member
FYI, Xbox Series X is manufactured by Microsoft, with production outsourced to Original Design Manufacturers (ODMs) like Foxconn (part of Hon Hai Technology Group) and Flex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flex_Ltd).
Xbox Series X APU was designed as a mid-range RDNA 2 with a 64 ROPS (raster) I/O scale that includes 56 CU (compute and TMU I/O) and 8 compact Zen 2 cores (similar to embedded Zen 2). Think of a mid-range RDNA 2 GPU card with 8 compact Zen 2 cores. AMD released full-fat Zen 3 for the desktop PC market when the Xbox Series X was released.
Xbox Series X's CPU was benchmarked with PC workload, and it's less suited for normal desktop workloads https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...review-play-pc-games-on-the-xbox-series-x-cpu. Apple's 256-bit LPDDR5X (Mac Pro M series) and AMD Strix Halo APU's 256-bit LPDDR5X is a design compromise between 256-bit GDDR6 QDR (quad data rate) and 128-bit DDR5 XMP/EXPO (double data rate).
AMD 4800S Xbox Chip Shows Perils of Pairing CPUs with GDDR6
Turns out GDDR6 is much worse in the latency department compared to DDR4 and DDR5.
AMD 4800S Xbox Chip Shows Perils of Pairing CPUs with GDDR6
Despite having a two-core advantage over the 3600, and a respectable 4GHz clock speed, the 8-core console chip could not outperform the 3600 or 4750G in most games tested. The closest it could come was matching the performance of the 4750G — which features less L3 cache than the 3600, but that was a best-case scenario, and it couldn't do it all the time.
Despite having a two-core advantage over the 3600, and a respectable 4GHz clock speed, the 8-core console chip could not outperform the 3600 or 4750G in most games tested. The closest it could come was matching the performance of the 4750G — which features less L3 cache than the 3600, but that was a best-case scenario, and it couldn't do it all the time.
PlayStation 5 Pro's GPU is still within mid-range GPU raster scale i.e. 64 ROPS. https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/playstation-5-pro-gpu.c4232
The same generation as the Xbox Series X, PC's NAVI 21 (RX 6800, RX 6800 XT, and RX 6900 XT/XTX) has a 96 and 128 ROPS scale.
Atm, RX 9700 XT has 128 ROPS scale with +3 Ghz clock speed. RX 9700 XT's CU has twice the texture sampling rate over RDNA 3 CU's. In terms of texture sampling rate, RX 9700 XT RDNA 4 is like 128 CU RDNA 3.0. RX 9700 XT is most likely being bottlenecked by memory bandwidth. Unlike RDNA 3.0 CU's dual issue mode, RDNA 4 CU's dual issue mode is matched by twice the texture sampling rate. A no-brainer to why RX 9700 XT is approaching 96 CU RDNA 3 scale RX 7900 XTX results.
The unified memory GDDR6 with APU is designed for cost reduction in mind. You get what you paid for.
PS5 Pro's 16 GB GDDR6 and 2 GB DDR5 is getting closer to gaming PC's memory topology.
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rnlval
Member
4 years from now another 2 generations of AMD GPU hardware will have passed...
And keep in mind that even the new PS5 Pro is still RDNA 2.x to keep compatibility with base PS5, adding RDNA4 ray tracing on top
The technological advancement from RDNA 2 to "RDNA 6/UDNA 2" or whatever they will name it, will be significant
FYI, Digital Foundry found RX 9060 XT (RDNA 4 32 CU, 64 ROPS) against PS5 Pro (RDNA 2.x custom 60 CU, 64 ROPS) to be similar. RDNA 4 CU has dual wave32 issue and double texture sampling rate.
Unfortunatecookie
Member
We're not in disagreement with getting what you pay for.FYI, Xbox Series X is manufactured by Microsoft, with production outsourced to Original Design Manufacturers (ODMs) like Foxconn (part of Hon Hai Technology Group) and Flex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flex_Ltd).
Xbox Series X APU was designed as a mid-range RDNA 2 with a 64 ROPS (raster) I/O scale that includes 56 CU (compute and TMU I/O) and 8 compact Zen 2 cores (similar to embedded Zen 2). Think of a mid-range RDNA 2 GPU card with 8 compact Zen 2 cores. AMD released full-fat Zen 3 for the desktop PC market when the Xbox Series X was released.
Xbox Series X's CPU was benchmarked with PC workload, and it's less suited for normal desktop workloads https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...review-play-pc-games-on-the-xbox-series-x-cpu. Apple's 256-bit LPDDR5X (Mac Pro M series) and AMD Strix Halo APU's 256-bit LPDDR5X is a design compromise between 256-bit GDDR6 QDR (quad data rate) and 128-bit DDR5 XMP/EXPO (double data rate).
AMD 4800S Xbox Chip Shows Perils of Pairing CPUs with GDDR6
Turns out GDDR6 is much worse in the latency department compared to DDR4 and DDR5.www.tomshardware.com
AMD 4800S Xbox Chip Shows Perils of Pairing CPUs with GDDR6
Despite having a two-core advantage over the 3600, and a respectable 4GHz clock speed, the 8-core console chip could not outperform the 3600 or 4750G in most games tested. The closest it could come was matching the performance of the 4750G — which features less L3 cache than the 3600, but that was a best-case scenario, and it couldn't do it all the time.
PlayStation 5 Pro's GPU is still within mid-range GPU raster scale i.e. 64 ROPS. https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/playstation-5-pro-gpu.c4232
The same generation as the Xbox Series X, PC's NAVI 21 (RX 6800, RX 6800 XT, and RX 6900 XT/XTX) has a 96 and 128 ROPS scale.
Atm, RX 9700 XT has 128 ROPS scale with +3 Ghz clock speed. RX 9700 XT's CU has twice the texture sampling rate over RDNA 3 CU's. In terms of texture sampling rate, RX 9700 XT RDNA 4 is like 128 CU RDNA 3.0. RX 9700 XT is most likely being bottlenecked by memory bandwidth. Unlike RDNA 3.0 CU's dual issue mode, RDNA 4 CU's dual issue mode is matched by twice the texture sampling rate. A no-brainer to why RX 9700 XT is approaching 96 CU RDNA 3 scale RX 7900 XTX results.
The unified memory GDDR6 with APU is designed for cost reduction in mind. You get what you paid for.
PS5 Pro's 16 GB GDDR6 and 2 GB DDR5 is getting closer to gaming PC's memory topology.
My point -- and I need to stress this part -- is if any and all OEMs can decide what an Xbox is, that could lead to a product fragmentation that makes Xbox blurrier and pricier than it currently is. Essentially, laptop-fying Xbox has a higher chance of creating a messier market for the Xbox brand.
For example, if someone hops onto Amazon and see's fifteen next-generation Xbox's, what's their next move? They're probably going to lean towards the more affordable Xbox's. Now, if the affordable Xbox's are affordable because they each have much lower storage and much lower RAM than the more expensive options, how do you get developers to support the cheaper devices? How do you even upgrade the storage on those devices? If a person buys a $300 Xbox from Acer, only to have Acer announce a new "Xbox" in less than a year, what do you think the reaction will be when that person discovers their current Xbox isn't the latest and greatest anymore? Remember: consoles aren't phones, and much like people only upgrading their TV's once every 5 or so years, the customer expectation is that the playback device that sits next to the TV will also follow a similar replacement/upgrade timeline.
Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture with their shotgun blast strategy. I could be completely wrong, but as of this post, I just see a world of hurt and confusion for the future of Xbox.
Unfortunatecookie
Member
If your brand identity has not translated to marketplace success for 12 straight years, it's time to rethink your brand.
The dudebro-neon aesthetic is played out. Most people don't want to be associated with played out things.
coffinbirth
Member
Except the part where they aren't.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
I didn't take the price point into account. I only noticed the first part
Kacho
Member
I'd say it's almost a given. Look at what they're doing with the Xbox ROG Ally handhelds.
The bulk of their 30 million Game Pass subscribers are on console. I think that's who they're trying to appeal to specifically.
Fess
Member
But you don't get it all on PS.
You don't get it all anywhere. That's what needs to be fixed.
I think if they can end up with a device with hardware based Xbox legacy backwards-compatibility plus everything new from MS plus Steam, Epic, GOG plus old console emulators, then they'll be close to get it all.
Performance is the biggest concern. PC gaming is often about brute forcing through bad optimization. I don't understand how they plan to deal with that. They need to have some system level settings recommendation kicking in when you launch a PC release on Xbox.
vaibhavpisal
Member
You dont get:
-RTS games
-Top down rpgs with RTWP systems
-A lot of steam only smaller games
Plus a lot more pc centric titles like WOW. Am sure am missing a lot of genres in strategy sub genre.
mayham2199
Member
Let me put it this way. I get all the games I care about. RTS and WOW do no interest me. I was done with WOW before the second expansion even came out. I also have no desire to start using a mouse and keyboard. That's part of the reason I'm on console because it ensures that my games have controller support. Some games on PC come out with no controller support yet on console they have controller support it makes no sense.
Plus my comment is in relation to the Xbox community. They didn't give a shit about those steam games before otherwise they would have moved to PC already. Those games aren't going to suddenly be exited about some 20 year old game and RTS titles lol. The smaller games aren't going to convince anyone either. Like I said the choice would be simple for me. I'd be dropping PS and buying an Xbox if the situation was reversed. I get to stay in a very similar ecosystem\setup and I get the main competitors game. The choice would be easy for me. I'd have to rebuy Mass Effect because I need that game with me at all times but after that I'd be good to go.
Fess
Member
???
Going by current rumours the Xbox community will literally have access to their entire Xbox library, through hw based bc on the next Xbox, plus the main competitor's games, through Steam ports.
Why would the Xbox community rather drop Xbox and get a PS where they only get like 10-20 ports of their Xbox library?
bitbydeath
Member
Because at some point they need to accept the inevitable that Xbox won't be around much longer.
Doesn't mean they have to jump to PS though, they could just as easily move to Nintendo or PC.
Bry0
Member
Xbox and PC will be the same library. That is the entire point of all of this. Their library will carry over and continue to be built going forward on win32 compiled games for nextbox and pc.
bitbydeath
Member
Agreed, it may need the AMD hardware to work however, although I do expect a cloud option in future.
Orbital2060
Member
When they are talking about a console they are probably meaning exactly that - a CONSOLE.
bitbydeath
Member
If you want to call a PC that runs legacy console games through an emulator then sure, totally is.
Orbital2060
Member
Lisa Su:If you want to call a PC that runs legacy console games through an emulator then sure, totally is.
Sarah Bond:
AMD are talking about consoles, handhelds and PCs specifically. Sarah Bond calls it a next-gen Xbox. At the same time, she is also saying that they want to make Windows the number one platform for gaming. Which is exactly what they have stated they want to do with the ROG Xbox - make Windows better for gaming. And thats the PC part with emulation I agree. But they are still launching a next-gen traditional Xbox console. There is going to be one more proper console generation from Xbox, at the same time as they also make Xbox games (read: ABK payback time) reach out to PCs and other Windows devices with these AMD APUs in them.
Xbox and AMD: Advancing the Next Generation of Gaming Together - Xbox Wire
This week, Xbox announced it is actively building its next-generation lineup across console, handheld, PC, cloud, and accessories. Find out more inside.
news.xbox.com
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bitbydeath
Member
None of that changes what I said.Lisa Su:
Sarah Bond:
AMD are talking about consoles, handhelds and PCs specifically. Sarah Bond calls it a next-gen Xbox. At the same time, she is also saying that they want to make Windows the number one platform for gaming. Which is exactly what they have stated they want to do with the ROG Xbox - make Windows better for gaming. And thats the PC part with emulation I agree. But they are still launching a next-gen traditional Xbox console. There is going to be one more proper console generation from Xbox, at the same time as they also make Xbox games (read: ABK payback time) reach out to PCs and other Windows devices with these AMD APUs in them.
Xbox and AMD: Advancing the Next Generation of Gaming Together - Xbox Wire
This week, Xbox announced it is actively building its next-generation lineup across console, handheld, PC, cloud, and accessories. Find out more inside.
The only "console" part will be the emulation, which is run on Windows.
Fess
Member
Xbox as pure traditional consoles, absolutely. But at this point everybody should realize that "Xbox" won't just vanish. They'll merge Xbox and Windows.
But yeah for the Xbox community the logical move has been PC for a long time.
It's kinda weird but dedicated PlayStation fans were probably among the first to claim that a PC could be used as an alternative to Xbox, when the PC ports started appearing. Today they seem to hate PC gaming going by talk here, but that's for another discussion.
The barriers on PC has been the cost, and Windows and mouse and keyboard I'd say, traditional PC gaming. Plus leaving 90% of the old console library behind. And that's what MS is focusing on now, getting rid of that.
Even if their merged Xbox PC ends up more expensive than a Series console the difference won't be astronomical. And even if Windows is there in the back they still have a controller-focused console UI in the front. And hardware based bc is the final puzzle piece to solve the emulation problem.
The execution needs to be perfect of course but on paper it seems like a good plan.
Getting Steam on Xbox consoles and Sony releasing their games there is a bonus. It's been talked about here for years but I'm not sure anybody thought it would actually happen. Still not sure it'll happen but it certainly looks possible. And if it does happen, and if the Xbox PC gets hardware based Xbox backwards compatibility, then moving to PlayStation would be a downgrade. The only real upside is "at least one tentpole release per year", assuming they stick to their timed exclusivity you'll get those later on Steam/Xbox.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Writing off entire genre like RTS, Grand Strategy games, RPGs with real time combat is wild.
I dont think a single one off exclusive makes up for that.
Am not trying to change your mind. But I think a closed ecosystem in 2026 is going to feel so archaic. Thats just my personal opinion though.
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