mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That 38% isn't realistic. It'll be more like a 20-25% improvement. I think your numbered jump is too high.
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That 38% isn't realistic. It'll be more like a 20-25% improvement. I think your numbered jump is too high.
pawel86ck
Banned
Here's the reality guys, every scenario is still possible. We should just wait for the official info because at this point people can only repeat the same info and arguments. 100 pages in a week is too much.... I dont even have a time to read everything now 
(I feel pity for the mods).
(I feel pity for the mods).
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Hellgardia
Member
Just going by the actual GPUs already launched and comparable (RX5700XT and Radeon VII). Not going by the touted 1.25x
Entroyp
Member
LiquidRex
Member
If the PS5 is only 9.2tfs, I for one believe we won't hear anything official from Sony regarding specs for a long time... Why: because they don't want Microsoft to coin the phrase: "Xbox Series X the most powerful console ever created" and then have Microsoft run with that, as part of their marketing campaign from now until launch. 
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I think it is because you go in on Sony fans when they acting a fool, but gloss over MS ones more often than not.
Let's be honest, you admit to having a bias and it sometimes shows when Sony fanatic comments trigger you with your anti fanboy retorts (which I agree with), but MS ones you will scroll on by, until a Sony fan responds back with the same vitriol and that is what gets the response out of you.
People now have a crosshair I would imagine.
Entroyp
Member
They are now moving to a digital only event
GDC and the wellbeing of our teams & community
Today, we’ve made a difficult decision to withdraw from participating at Game Developers Conferencedeveloper.microsoft.com
This is pretty cool from MS!
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demigod
Member
Gamernyc78
Banned
Mr Moose
Member
Wouldn't any external SSD work with PS5?
LED Guy?
Banned
Well, I mean, Microsoft and Sony both know all their stuff way ahead of us, Xbox Scorpio was announced as the most powerful console before Sony even announced the PS4 Pro back in 2016.If the PS5 is only 9.2tfs, I for one believe we won't hear anything official from Sony regarding specs for a long time... Why: because they don't want Microsoft to coin the phrase: "Xbox Series X the most powerful console ever created" and then have Microsoft run with that, as part of their marketing campaign from now until launch.
Microsoft not saying that XSX is the most powerful console ever made definitely raised by eyebrow, it's a huge red flag for me at least and that tells you something.
Neo Blaster
Member
We don't even know whether it will support external drives at all.
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
So MS beat Sony at announcing a console but Sony beat MS on announcing that they're not going to events! Notice how it made no difference and they're both not going regardless
ANIMAL1975
Member
Aceofspades
Banned
PS5 being only 36CUs doesn't make a lick of sense, unless Sony deliberately stopped caring about chasing power early in 2015.
MS released a 40Cus Xbox one X in 2017, why the hell would Sony say, nah...we will stick to 36CUs in 2020, we can easily power our next gen VR and do 8k . It will be sufficient!
That's why I feel like github leaks missing too much confirmed info to be taken seriously, it shows conflict in the following areas:
1 - Ray tracing cores is missing from the chip: confirmed twice by Cerny.
2 - its has many naming errors to be legitimate. Even Arden, supposedly Xbox dev kit has appeared on the same document.
3 - clocks used are too high to be used in a console form, it can be a stress test for BC of the chip.
We know the following:
1 - Sony has been co developing Navi with AMD and are the very first vendors for Navi.
2 - Sony apparently wanted to release PS5 in 2019 but then scrapped the idea in 2017 and decided to go in 2020.
3 - Sony has been trying to perfect BC for PS5 to add value and improve ecosystem.
My interpretation of those scenarios:
Github leak is real but no longer valid for the following reasons:
Old kit: it can be a reflection of PS5 old kits for the planned 2019 scrapped launch.
Testing BC: It can be a stress test for BC only purposes that's why we had PS4/PRO clocks and only 36 Cus max or we had full chip with disabled Cus like Sony patent suggested.
First Navi: sony has co engineered Navi with AMD , they were the first experimenting with this arch. They designed whats available at the time 40CUs so they wanted to hit two birds with one stone, stress test the new arch clock tolerance and emulate PS4 BC in those high clocks , thats why they opted for 36Cus like PRO. Also they wanted to get closer to big Navi targets (not available at the time) to give developers some target expectations of the new console.
Notice that lack of RT in the github dec can give credence to all points raised above.
Let just wait and see.
Edit: one scenario although far fetched, Sony has constructed this github leak just to throw away MS and the community then revealing super improved specs to get hype rolling. Very far fetched scenario
MS released a 40Cus Xbox one X in 2017, why the hell would Sony say, nah...we will stick to 36CUs in 2020, we can easily power our next gen VR and do 8k . It will be sufficient!
That's why I feel like github leaks missing too much confirmed info to be taken seriously, it shows conflict in the following areas:
1 - Ray tracing cores is missing from the chip: confirmed twice by Cerny.
2 - its has many naming errors to be legitimate. Even Arden, supposedly Xbox dev kit has appeared on the same document.
3 - clocks used are too high to be used in a console form, it can be a stress test for BC of the chip.
We know the following:
1 - Sony has been co developing Navi with AMD and are the very first vendors for Navi.
2 - Sony apparently wanted to release PS5 in 2019 but then scrapped the idea in 2017 and decided to go in 2020.
3 - Sony has been trying to perfect BC for PS5 to add value and improve ecosystem.
My interpretation of those scenarios:
Github leak is real but no longer valid for the following reasons:
Old kit: it can be a reflection of PS5 old kits for the planned 2019 scrapped launch.
Testing BC: It can be a stress test for BC only purposes that's why we had PS4/PRO clocks and only 36 Cus max or we had full chip with disabled Cus like Sony patent suggested.
First Navi: sony has co engineered Navi with AMD , they were the first experimenting with this arch. They designed whats available at the time 40CUs so they wanted to hit two birds with one stone, stress test the new arch clock tolerance and emulate PS4 BC in those high clocks , thats why they opted for 36Cus like PRO. Also they wanted to get closer to big Navi targets (not available at the time) to give developers some target expectations of the new console.
Notice that lack of RT in the github dec can give credence to all points raised above.
Let just wait and see.
Edit: one scenario although far fetched, Sony has constructed this github leak just to throw away MS and the community then revealing super improved specs to get hype rolling. Very far fetched scenario
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
I get that they would have been underpowered eventually but damn releasing a year early after a gen of domination could have given Sony some serious momentum. Like PS2 was less powerful than GC or XB but being a year early and software let it dominate
Disco_
Member
We probably shouldn't as those don't seem to be figures tied to navi/rdna.
Ariel or navi10 lite?
01011001
Banned
uhm... what? you know the amount of compute units alone isn't all right? the CU count alone doesn't tell you how much performance you can get out of it.
Sony and Microsoft also stick with an 8core CPU, and that 8 core CPU is most likely at least 5 to 6 times as performant as the 8 core CPU in the Xbox One and PS4. weird? HoW cAn ThAt bE? it'S ThE SAme AmOUnT oF CorES! wHy stAY aT 8 cOrES???
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ANIMAL1975
Member
GDC Soon GDC GDC GDC?
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I admit to liking one console over the other. I only ever TRY to post technical comments, and offer my knowledge. I reply to idiots who don't like that, and yeah, 99% of the time it's sony fans who don't like it, because I'm realistic and not on the team 14tf train. Who in their right mind would be?
So yes, I ignore Xbox posts because they aren't aimed at me, but to say I don't ever comment on them when they say something stupid is a bit retarded, as I've posted no less than 30 timeS taking the piss out of idiots Who keep going on about 9tf.
As for that original poster, I'm done with the discussion and them.
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Gudji
Member
PS4 PRO = 4.2 TF -> released in 2016
XBO X = 6 TF -> released in 2017
PS5 (Oberon) = 9.2 TF -> Holiday 2019 release
XSX = 12 TF -> Holiday 2020
Does this look familiar to any of you? For me It's like 2+2.
XBO X = 6 TF -> released in 2017
- One year difference between them, higher BOM for XBO X.
- Difference in performance = 42%
PS5 (Oberon) = 9.2 TF -> Holiday 2019 release
XSX = 12 TF -> Holiday 2020
- One year difference between them, probably different BOMs
- Difference in performance = 30%
Does this look familiar to any of you? For me It's like 2+2.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Oh I agree on the 14TF, that is just crazy talk. I am also not trying to attack you, so apologies if it seems that way. Just an observation over the many months and why some may see it that way now.
There are tons of posts that you make in which I value and agree with on the technical side, so don't let a few naysayers ruffle you feathers. Keep on keeping on with them.
Disco_
Member
both ariel and oberon are gpu codenames
Gonzalo was an apu, ariel was the gpu part of that apu. Prospero was the dev kit name.
Aceofspades
Banned
Well yes, CUs contains basically graphics processing cores. More cores, more power, especially in the same architecture.
You really think PS and MS dont know eachothers specs? They have TONS of resources to find that information out, they are not sitting on Neogaf or reddit looking for information. Phil released those specs because he KNOWS Sonys specs and is confident in them.
demigod
Member
Confident in what? That they have the power edge? If they did, their marketing pages would be "world's most powerful console" by now.
01011001
Banned
but it isn't the same architecture. the jump from GCN to RDNA alone would bump this up quite a bit. then higher clock rates on top of that aswell...
I mean you can see that even tho Oberon has the same amount of CUs as the PS4 pro it is more than twice as powerful simply going by the TF numbers. that is without the improved performance that comes with RDNA.
also a console is not only the GPU power alone. the CPU performance improvements that Zen 2 brings to the table compared to those god awful Jaguar cores used in current systems is ridiculous to say the least.
all in all the jump from PS4 pro to Oberon/Gonzalo is quite substantial even tho it uses the same amount of CPU cores and the same amount of GPU Compute Units.
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Gudji
Member
Penello actually said on era, that back in 2013 they knew sony had a better performing GPU and also knew about the 4GB of RAM (before the upgrade). Of course they were gonna deny everything if somehow sony managed to discover who gave them the info.
Trust me they - Sony and MS - have known each other specs for a long time.
FranXico
Member
I think they are pretty confident, just not 100% sure.
FWIW
40CU Navi - 251mm² 7nm (no RT)
36CU GCN - 230mm² 16nm (PS4Pro)
18CU GCN - 212mm² 28nm (PS4)
7nm +50% more expensive compared to 16nm per ~250mm² die (as per AMD)
So we know
Navi CUs are considerably bigger then GCN
They have much more cache ie. higher IPC
They also clock MUCH higher
Navi 10 is bigger then PS4/Pro GPUs in addition to not featuring RT/VRS hardware which PS5 will have.
7nm node is MUCH more expensive then 16nm and 28nm. In fact, 320-350mm² chip from PS4Pro and PS4 would probably be ~50% more expensive on 7nm node.
Also note that 36CU Navi at 2.0GHz (even 1.8GHz) in PS5 would br MUCH more agressive then PS4 or Pro clocks. So even if 36CUs seem small, chip is (especially with RT) bigger then PS4/Pro one + clocks are MUCH higher compared to PC equivalent.
Conclusion? Get those clocks as high as possible for as little die as possible. Thats why new Renoir (4000 series AMD) APUs have Vegas with LESS CUs, but much higher clocks.
40CU Navi - 251mm² 7nm (no RT)
36CU GCN - 230mm² 16nm (PS4Pro)
18CU GCN - 212mm² 28nm (PS4)
7nm +50% more expensive compared to 16nm per ~250mm² die (as per AMD)
So we know
Navi CUs are considerably bigger then GCN
They have much more cache ie. higher IPC
They also clock MUCH higher
Navi 10 is bigger then PS4/Pro GPUs in addition to not featuring RT/VRS hardware which PS5 will have.
7nm node is MUCH more expensive then 16nm and 28nm. In fact, 320-350mm² chip from PS4Pro and PS4 would probably be ~50% more expensive on 7nm node.
Also note that 36CU Navi at 2.0GHz (even 1.8GHz) in PS5 would br MUCH more agressive then PS4 or Pro clocks. So even if 36CUs seem small, chip is (especially with RT) bigger then PS4/Pro one + clocks are MUCH higher compared to PC equivalent.
Conclusion? Get those clocks as high as possible for as little die as possible. Thats why new Renoir (4000 series AMD) APUs have Vegas with LESS CUs, but much higher clocks.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
They are confident, doesn't mean they are superior. Even if PS5 is 12 tf too, doesn't mean MS should't say 12 tf. On the other hand, maybe it's 12.2 but MS didn't say it because PS is 12.3, but it's always 12, it's not like Phil knows PS5 gonna be 13 (because much probably it's not). So all this "he said 12 because he knows" doesn't bring much to the table. That much tf is still impressing and worth saying in a reality were those console are not surpassing that level.
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Kazekage1981
Member
Aceofspades
I agree. it must have been some sort of prototype for testing purposes, to test heat or other things and see if it passes. Also, developers need something to work with, because it takes an average of 12-24 months to release a game, so they probably have alpha, beta, gamma kits before the final hardware is released. As I recall, killzone for ps4 only used 2-4GB of RAM, yet it looked spectacular. I dont think PS5 is 9.2 TFLOPS, I think it is within 10-11 TFLOP range.
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Disco_
Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
At the same time, though, very few people actually directly call out the Sony mega-diehards when they act a fool. The Xbox ones get raked through the coals from here to Indonesia, by multiple people, but the Sony ones generally don't get that level of reprimanding.
This week in particular it seems like there's been a lot of Sony mega-diehards amping up the ridiculousness. I wish that weren't the case but it is what it is. TBF I do try being super-neutral myself and don't have any stake in these camps (end of the day all these companies just want to take my money, they just wear a suit when doing it and their product is a game console instead of meth but they're almost as addictive in their own right) and have asked Xbox fanboys like longdi to chill out with their trolling.
In any case, it'll probably die down by next week, unless Sony decide to come forth with any news or MS releases yet more news or some damning leaks come out. I understand everyone's thirsty for some official PS5 news but people gotta chill out with the ridiculousness.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
I suspect Phill sends private messages to GAF insiders to ask them about the PS5 specs.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Gudji
Member
Basically what happened back in 2013.
xool
Member
Interesting. I get it.
But did Sony stick with the year older hardware after the 2019 date slipped ?
01011001
Banned
well Microsoft at least apparently doesn't have a PS5 dev kit yet (and yes they will need PS5 dev kits since Mojang will port Minecraft to PS5)
Mendou
Banned
Source?
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Especially, if the hardware was set in stone and far weaker than SeX why they didn't release in 2019 anyway instead of overcloking two shits and call it a day? For PS4? Meh. I guess they changed more than that.
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Gudji
Member
I highly doubt it, because:
1) Insiders are all saying the same thing, they're close. Some even said both in the double digits
2) because the chip was reworked 3 times after the github leak
3) the github leak entries start in 2017 but, we also know sony changed plans that year and delayed the PS5 to 2020. They've had 2 years to rework the chip.
Anyway just my opinion.
Disco_
Member
That interview about minecraft devs not having ps5 kits was from early 2019 IIRC.
BGs
Industry Professional
...for the blow ... on the table. Or against the wall?
PocoJoe
Banned
No. Because if Sony ditched the idea of 2019 release on 2017, there would be enough time to re-engineer the chip and they could even have different scenarios already planned and they just switched to 2020 release plan.
Why dont people stop this oberon madness? It looks like some kind of psychosis already lol.
and after the reveal (and not 9.2 tflops) people start the same idiotic "bbbbut how could it be / nobody knew that!" like when idiots claimed that it is 100% certain that switch wont use stock tegra x1 because some attention whoring "transvestite-leaker" leaker said so.
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