SonGoku
Member
Maybe they will sell us FP16 flops
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joe_zazen
Member
.
The generation if the supercharged ssd begins 11/11/20.
The PR will change and they will talk about some other thing like SSD.
The generation if the supercharged ssd begins 11/11/20.
Ovech-King
Member
Yeah would be pretty funny to see Microsoft 3 years after releasing the X say "our new monster is 8tflops yall. Amazing , right ???"
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You mean over used RT at sub 30fps. Still pissed at nvidia for pushing it rather not had it and have simple push to higher frames as the selling point and load times since these devices will be very underpowered again. Nothing 499.99 mid generation refresh cant fix I guess.The PR will change and they will talk about some other thing like SSD.
CyberPanda
Banned
RT is where graphics tech is headed. Yea, Nvidia pushed it, but AMD is doing it too. Just the way the cookie crumbles, and if you care about power just build a nice rig. Digitalstorm has some nice builds available on their website. And, MS hinted that they won’t do any mid gen refreshes this time. If they aren’t doing it, then don’t expect Sony to either.
vpance
Member
One interesting thing to note is, if Scarlett APU size is 385nm2 then at regular 7nm that only leaves enough room for a sub 8TF GPU. That can't be seriously considered right? That must mean they went EUV.
Edit: OQA leak of 315mm2 doesn't make sense either then, that is way too small even for 7nm EUV.
Edit: OQA leak of 315mm2 doesn't make sense either then, that is way too small even for 7nm EUV.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Maybe it's just me, but the Gonzalo Fire Strike benchmark leaked by Apisak is encouraging. That's like Vega 56(OC)/Vega 64 + Ryzen 1700/2700 results. Most console gamers are playing on the equivalent of Radeon 7770(XO) or 7850(PS4).
Bonus: Final Performance = 20,000+...
Bonus: Final Performance = 20,000+...
Negotiator
Member
8TF OG consoles means we're gonna see PS5 Pro/XB2X by 2023 at the latest. And good luck trying to explain Teraflop semantics to the Average Joe.
Ideally we could have had next-gen starting later this year if EUV hadn't taken so long to develop (apparently the R&D started back in 1985!). It's the only way to keep Moore's Law alive and kicking in sub-10nm nodes.
7nm+ RDNA2 (aka the real deal) must be 7nm 2nd gen EUV:
Ideally we could have had next-gen starting later this year if EUV hadn't taken so long to develop (apparently the R&D started back in 1985!). It's the only way to keep Moore's Law alive and kicking in sub-10nm nodes.
7nm+ RDNA2 (aka the real deal) must be 7nm 2nd gen EUV:
CyberPanda
Banned
8TF OG consoles means we're gonna see PS5 Pro/XB2X by 2023 at the latest. And good luck trying to explain Teraflop semantics to the Average Joe.
Ideally we could have had next-gen starting later this year if EUV hadn't taken so long to develop (apparently the R&D started back in 1985!). It's the only way to keep Moore's Law alive and kicking in sub-10nm nodes.
7nm+ RDNA2 (aka the real deal) must be 7nm 2nd gen EUV:
Xbox boss Phil Spencer: "We're not planning for Scarlett to be our last console"
Video game streaming isn't quite here - but it's certainly coming. Google, Sony and of course Microsoft are all set to …
www.eurogamer.net
ResilientBanana
Member
I expected this and am not disappointed. 8tf for Navi is stil comparable to 12TF Vega and that ain’t bad.
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Negotiator
Member
I'm pretty sure both Cerny and John Sell understand the importance of EUV etching more than all of us, so I wouldn't worry that much. It's more than necessary to offer a sizeable next-gen leap.
SonGoku
Member
56CUs total come up at 388.75 mm2 keep in mind this is with 2SEs only not sure if that will be a bottleneck 26CUs per SE compared to 20 per SE on 5700XT
Since its a 2SE design we can disable 2DCUs (4CUs) and are left with 52CUs
52CUs @1500Mhz = 9.98TF
52CUs @1550Mhz = 10.3TF (equal to 12.9TF Vega)
52CUs @1600Mhz = 10.65TF (pushing it - absolute max best case if all the stars align)
52CUs @1800Mhz = 11.98TF (just for the fucks)
On the other hand...
4SEs, 384bit bus, 64CUs APU would be 377mm2 on 7nm EUV
363mm2 with a 320bit bus
needs to be 333mm2 minimum for 40CUs with RT
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vpance
Member
Given this huge size of Navi, if Sony were to go HBM2 that would save a ton of die space for more CUs. See this comparison of Fiji and Tonga silicon:
One 64-bit bus for GDDR5 is only a bit smaller than a 1024-bit HBM bus. Keep in mind Scarlett could have 4-6 of these. The estimate has a 320-bit bus at 81.6mm2. Theoretically you cut that in half or to 1/3 if they go HBM2/E.
One 64-bit bus for GDDR5 is only a bit smaller than a 1024-bit HBM bus. Keep in mind Scarlett could have 4-6 of these. The estimate has a 320-bit bus at 81.6mm2. Theoretically you cut that in half or to 1/3 if they go HBM2/E.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Yeah if it ends up like a Vega 56/64+RT of some sort, that's enough grunt for DOOM(2016) at 4K/60fps with a ton of overhead(additional 20-30%). I'm excited to see DOOM Eternal's RT implementation. Maybe we can have both 60fps and RT for those who want it?
CyberPanda
Banned
I’m sure they will release a RTX video showing it off eventually. The developers did say it’s in the works, but I don’t know the release date of the game.
SonGoku
Member
Not really lol
But if Gonzolo is indeed PS5, 20k score points towards
If goznzolo leak its true did we both lose the bet lol?
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Yeah, they were bragging on it pretty hard, so hopefully they'll show it off and describe it's performance impact soon.
It's looking like Vega 56 OC performance from the Fire Strike leak. That'll fit nicely under my "GTX 1080/Vega 64/2060 will beat PS5 claim", not to mention the addendum where I was allowed Navi 10. Let's wait and see. Have you really given up on 56CUs?If Gonzalo leak its true did we both lose the bet lol?
SonGoku
Member
damn didnt 20k beat rtx2070?
edit:
First PlayStation 5 GPU Benchmark Just Leaked - Lords of Gaming
Sony revealed in April that the PlayStation 5 will use the latest AMD CPU and GPU technology. The PlayStation 5 is expected to be powerful. Full specs have not been revealed so we still did not know how powerful it’s going to be. However, it looks like this is about...
lordsofgaming.net
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CyberPanda
Banned
It will be interesting to see Doom Eternal with RT that's for sure, the game looks amazing as it is.
SonGoku
Member
Not completely but the chances severely reduced considering 7nm EUV has to be available at lunch for it to materialize vs my previous estimates where it was a sure bet regardless.
All hopes and dreams are now placed in 7nm EUV
Negotiator
Member
Doom already runs at 4k60 on XB1X and it's a current-gen game. Next-gen games will need something a lot more powerful than that (4x according to MS, good luck delivering that with an 8TF Navi and "eating monsters for breakfast", lol).
Teraflops aren't just for rasterization (not even DF gets this, they're still stuck in the 3D accelerator era, like we're still in the 90s), they also need compute for AI and other algos (hopefully not for SW RT, since it would be too taxing without dedicated HW RT).
Teraflops aren't just for rasterization (not even DF gets this, they're still stuck in the 3D accelerator era, like we're still in the 90s), they also need compute for AI and other algos (hopefully not for SW RT, since it would be too taxing without dedicated HW RT).
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Fire Strike is just a canned benchmark, albeit a good one. But it's not good to compare across manufacturers, since in reality the 2070 is ~13% faster than the Vega 64. Why not just go straight to 3DMark website for results with CPU of choice?
Navi 5700 XT should score around 26K in this benchmark.
SonGoku
Member
Then i hope gonzolo is fake lool and sony/ms planned for 7nm euv all along as unlikely as it might sound.Fire Strike is just a canned benchmark, albeit a good one. But it's not good to compare across manufacturers, since in reality the 2070 is ~13% faster than the Vega 64. Why not just go straight to 3DMark website for results with CPU of choice?
Navi 5700 XT should score around 26K in this benchmark.
Ovech-King
Member
Since I think it's a logic given that Microsoft and Sony are looking at a native 4k 60fps for their consoles baseline performance output , 1080 or Vega 64 is way underpowered for this goal and to make things worst I'm giving my remark based off 2017-2018 games benchmarks.
Expect more than that Gonzalo leak guys , these consoles will be for games of 2021 and beyond . They will be even more demanding than the past ones.
Expect more than that Gonzalo leak guys , these consoles will be for games of 2021 and beyond . They will be even more demanding than the past ones.
DemonCleaner
Member
[/SPOILER]
New die size estimates:
75mm for CPU
81.6mm2 for 320 bit bus
93.32mm2 for 4 SEs (ROPs, cache, etc.)
IO 37.72mm2
10.85mm2 GPU CC (CP, ACEs etc.)
156.48mm2 32DCUs with RT (64CUs)
144.96mm2 without RT
Total:
454.97mm2 With RT - 363.9mm2 on 7nm EUV
443.45mm2 Without RT
wanted to also do that for some days now. but you have clearly more time than me
good work mate!
one thing you please clarify for me: is there any other sorce that confirms that navi 10 is just using 2 shader engines beside the caption in the AMD navi die slide (the caption could be misleading because simplification). what you call a shader engine in your pic above could and should still be two because every frontend component is present two times and simply mirrored.
Negotiator
Member
Is Liabe Brave still on this forum? I thought he had left for "greener pastures", so I find his NeoGAF contribution "weird" (?)
ArabianPrynce
Member
fucking amd. the more i think about the more i realize how bad this upcoming gen will end up. 8tflops seems good for current gen but with every gen, games keep getting more demanding. GPU also accounts for framerate and other stuff. How will it keep up while keeping a smooth framerate.
How the fuck are they gonna output native 4k with next gen graphics lmao.
How the fuck are they gonna output native 4k with next gen graphics lmao.
DemonCleaner
Member
Fire Strike is just a canned benchmark, albeit a good one. But it's not good to compare across manufacturers, since in reality the 2070 is ~13% faster than the Vega 64. Why not just go straight to 3DMark website for results with CPU of choice?
Navi 5700 XT should score around 26K in this benchmark.
MAN YOU RE ONCE AGAIN POSTING HIGHLY OVERCLOCKED RESULTS HERE WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH STOCK PERFORMANCE.
please read my last post concering that:
guys to get a firestrike (combined) score of 20.000+ with a vega56 you have to overclock it to above gtx1080 levels and have a beafy CPU. the scores you're quoting are heavy overclocks.
i thinks many here are also confusing graphics and overall score.
i put my vega56 on water and put 400W through it (with the liquid bios) to get to 20K combined. i had a graphics score of over 24.000 while doing it.
still have the results:
stock combined scores for a factory vega56 must be around 16-17K depending on CPU
apisak is stating combined scores.
5700XT will never never never have more than 21K combined score stock.
SonGoku
Member
Update: We might not be fucked boys
forum.beyond3d.com
Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]
Looking at the benchmarks it appears to me the only card that's native 4k/60fps stable is 2080 ti (on current gen titles even), not even 2080 holds it that often and much less a 2070 tier console. The only games that are 4k/60 for a 2070 level ps5 are BF5 and Strange Brigade and the rest...
forum.beyond3d.com
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I was always going to use mod Vega 56 or GTX 1080 pushed to the max. Are you trying to talk down to me, or what?
DemonCleaner
Member
im saying to get to 20K combined in firestrike with a CPU capped at 3.2GHz you probably need somewhat gtx2080-like GPU performance
Negotiator
Member
128 ROPs might not be unreasonable if Sony pulls off a butterfly setup once again. PS4 Pro has 64 ROPs vs 32 ROPs on XB1X, even though it clearly doesn't need that many.
But then again, we might see even more convergence for Sony & MS in their next-gen designs.
But then again, we might see even more convergence for Sony & MS in their next-gen designs.
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DemonCleaner
Member
that said, firestrike is not necessarily the best indicator for modern game environments. timespy is better for that (i think at least vega doesn't fair quite as good here compared to turing).
nevertheless that's still impressive considering that this thing must be running in some weird compatibily mode.
TLZ
Banned
Thanks for the rollercoaster rideUpdate: We might not be fucked boys
Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]
Looking at the benchmarks it appears to me the only card that's native 4k/60fps stable is 2080 ti (on current gen titles even), not even 2080 holds it that often and much less a 2070 tier console. The only games that are 4k/60 for a 2070 level ps5 are BF5 and Strange Brigade and the rest...
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
There's plenty of combined scores of over 20K from Ryzen 7 1700 ~3.9GHz + GTX 1080 ~2GHz. That's stock hs/f type oc on the Ryzen 7 1700, and consoles with Zen 2 at 3.2GHz should about match that. Going above 2GHz on Pascal is not black magic either, my 1060 hits 2135MHz in Fire Strike.
What you're saying has nothing to do with the fuckin' bet, my friend. It was to be "1080/Vega64/2060 card beats PS5" on my own hardware at my own discretion how to do it. Later, we added the original bet "Navi 10 5700 Pro or XT will beat PS5". Why would I use stock speeds for any of that?
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DemonCleaner
Member
not trying to talk down to anybody. i just wanted to point out that it doesn't make sense to compare console kind of TDP results with 20-25% overclocks which put the said cards in or above the next upper card bracket while doubling the power fed into it (like 400W into vega56 like i did)
for reference to combined scores just use stock benchmarks like guru 3Ds here and be beware of that the are using beafy CPUs which better the combined score compare to a capped console GPU:
vpance
Member
Update: We might not be fucked boys
Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]
Looking at the benchmarks it appears to me the only card that's native 4k/60fps stable is 2080 ti (on current gen titles even), not even 2080 holds it that often and much less a 2070 tier console. The only games that are 4k/60 for a 2070 level ps5 are BF5 and Strange Brigade and the rest...
7nm+ is a 17% reduction (from Anandtech article).
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Negotiator
Member
Interesting comments:
wccftech.com
"While this timeline is impacted by the launch of AMD’s desktop CPU and GPUs that are planned on the 7nm it is primarily affected by the fact that Apple is gobbling up all of TSMC’s 7nm capacity right now. Since Apple is the no.1 customer of TSMC’s leading-edge nodes, and consoles require chips in volume to truly achieve economies of scale, this is one of the reasons why we will see the consoles arrive in 2020 and not earlier. TSMC started volume production on the 7nm node earlier this month."
"So Sony is waiting for 7nm+ (i.e. total EUV wafer processing). That just cements the notion that the first gen 7nm (multipatterned to death) is going to be about as impressive as Radeon VII (i.e. NOT). My guess is that by the time TSMC has 7nm+ running we will also see 7nm from Intel (and that will be a denser 7nm). All you have to do is look at EUV shipments from ASML (or rather the lack thereof) to figure out that the real switch to 7nm isn't for a while yet."
Apple is currently gobbling up most of TSMC's 7nm 1st gen wafers. It's a fine process if you want to manufacture sub-100mm2 mobile chips with high density, but obviously not so good for 300mm2+ console chips.
Sony (and possibly MS) is playing it smart by waiting until Q3 2020 (July 1, 2020 to September 30, 2020) for 7nm+ from either TSMC or Samsung.
Nvidia is likely waiting for the same reason (it wouldn't make much sense to release overpriced weak sauce Ampere GPUs).
On the other hand, Apple will quickly jump into 5nm next year, so 7nm production lines will be free for everyone else:
9to5mac.com
AMD's 7nm Chips For Next-Generation PlayStation 5 Will Be Ready In Q3 2020
One of the most reliable sources of information from the Taiwanese semiconductor industry is Digitimes - the nation's leading semiconductor publication. DigiTimes just pushed out a report saying that the 7nm chips that are going to power Sony's upcoming next-generation PlayStation 5 (or whatever...
wccftech.com
"While this timeline is impacted by the launch of AMD’s desktop CPU and GPUs that are planned on the 7nm it is primarily affected by the fact that Apple is gobbling up all of TSMC’s 7nm capacity right now. Since Apple is the no.1 customer of TSMC’s leading-edge nodes, and consoles require chips in volume to truly achieve economies of scale, this is one of the reasons why we will see the consoles arrive in 2020 and not earlier. TSMC started volume production on the 7nm node earlier this month."
"So Sony is waiting for 7nm+ (i.e. total EUV wafer processing). That just cements the notion that the first gen 7nm (multipatterned to death) is going to be about as impressive as Radeon VII (i.e. NOT). My guess is that by the time TSMC has 7nm+ running we will also see 7nm from Intel (and that will be a denser 7nm). All you have to do is look at EUV shipments from ASML (or rather the lack thereof) to figure out that the real switch to 7nm isn't for a while yet."
Apple is currently gobbling up most of TSMC's 7nm 1st gen wafers. It's a fine process if you want to manufacture sub-100mm2 mobile chips with high density, but obviously not so good for 300mm2+ console chips.
Sony (and possibly MS) is playing it smart by waiting until Q3 2020 (July 1, 2020 to September 30, 2020) for 7nm+ from either TSMC or Samsung.
Nvidia is likely waiting for the same reason (it wouldn't make much sense to release overpriced weak sauce Ampere GPUs).
On the other hand, Apple will quickly jump into 5nm next year, so 7nm production lines will be free for everyone else:
Apple now able to design 5nm A-Series chips for 2020 iPhones - 9to5Mac
It's looking like Apple chipmaker TSMC is on track for being able to produce 5nm A-Series chips for 2020 iPhones. We heard ...
9to5mac.com
SonGoku
Member
Updated die size estimates (for real this time):
75mm for CPU
81.6mm2 for 320 bit bus (20GB)
97.92mm2 for 384 bit bus (24GB)
46.66 mm2 for 4SEs (64ROPs, cache, etc.)
IO 20.72mm2
10.85mm2 GPU CC (CP, ACEs etc.)
156.48mm2 32DCUs with RT (64CUs)
Total:
391.31mm2 - 320 bit bus
407.63mm2 - 384 bit bus
75mm for CPU
81.6mm2 for 320 bit bus (20GB)
97.92mm2 for 384 bit bus (24GB)
46.66 mm2 for 4SEs (64ROPs, cache, etc.)
IO 20.72mm2
10.85mm2 GPU CC (CP, ACEs etc.)
156.48mm2 32DCUs with RT (64CUs)
Total:
391.31mm2 - 320 bit bus
407.63mm2 - 384 bit bus
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DemonCleaner
Member
not saying that would be black magic. but it certainly overclocked. (and let me tell you after testing dozend and dozend of hours firestrike reported GPU clock isn't a good indicator whats going on, especially with vega you used as a reference) what definintly would be black magic is a 5700XT with 26000 combined without puting it on liquid nitrogen
but don't sweat. im gonna do the testing on navi10 soon enough.
i did a bet with you?
ArabianPrynce
Member
Holy shit dude coming in witht them sourcesInteresting comments:
AMD's 7nm Chips For Next-Generation PlayStation 5 Will Be Ready In Q3 2020
One of the most reliable sources of information from the Taiwanese semiconductor industry is Digitimes - the nation's leading semiconductor publication. DigiTimes just pushed out a report saying that the 7nm chips that are going to power Sony's upcoming next-generation PlayStation 5 (or whatever...
"While this timeline is impacted by the launch of AMD’s desktop CPU and GPUs that are planned on the 7nm it is primarily affected by the fact that Apple is gobbling up all of TSMC’s 7nm capacity right now. Since Apple is the no.1 customer of TSMC’s leading-edge nodes, and consoles require chips in volume to truly achieve economies of scale, this is one of the reasons why we will see the consoles arrive in 2020 and not earlier. TSMC started volume production on the 7nm node earlier this month."
"So Sony is waiting for 7nm+ (i.e. total EUV wafer processing). That just cements the notion that the first gen 7nm (multipatterned to death) is going to be about as impressive as Radeon VII (i.e. NOT). My guess is that by the time TSMC has 7nm+ running we will also see 7nm from Intel (and that will be a denser 7nm). All you have to do is look at EUV shipments from ASML (or rather the lack thereof) to figure out that the real switch to 7nm isn't for a while yet."
Apple is currently gobbling up most of TSMC's 7nm 1st gen wafers. It's a fine process if you want to manufacture sub-100mm2 mobile chips with high density, but obviously not so good for 300mm2+ console chips.
Sony (and possibly MS) is playing it smart by waiting until Q3 2020 (July 1, 2020 to September 30, 2020) for 7nm+ from either TSMC or Samsung.
Nvidia is likely waiting for the same reason (it wouldn't make much sense to release overpriced weak sauce Ampere GPUs).
On the other hand, Apple will quickly jump into 5nm next year, so 7nm production lines will be free for everyone else:
Apple now able to design 5nm A-Series chips for 2020 iPhones - 9to5Mac
It's looking like Apple chipmaker TSMC is on track for being able to produce 5nm A-Series chips for 2020 iPhones. We heard ...
killatopak
Member
If that is the performance, then wtf is the price. $399? Haha
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Read what you're jumping into the middle of. I've had a running bet with SonGoku that the 5700 XT will beat PS5 performance.
I understand what's going on now with your all caps yelling and confusion. I've had you on ignore for months because you wouldn't fix your gray formatting. I haven't seen anything you've been posting. Makes sense now.
Aceofspades
Banned
Dude, you are overreacting a lot. Chasing TF is like chasing bits during PS2 era. Of course more TF is better but its just one piece of the puzzle.
Next gen we will get huge CPU upgrade, massive transition to SSD and a moderate leap in GPU with added RT. Next gen is huge leap forward imo.
Negotiator
Member
Moar sources to support my 7nm+ thesis:
Samsung Undercuts TSMC, to Fab Nvidia Ampere on Its 7nm Process - Report
According to a report from DigiTimes and EETimes, Nvidia will fab its upcoming Ampere architecture on Samsung's 7nm EUV process rather than on the 7nm process from TSMC
NVIDIA's Ampere GPU Launching In 2020, Will Be Based On Samsung's 7nm EUV Process
What is probably the first tangible (and reliable) leak for Ampere GPUs after their certification almost a year ago has surfaced. Taiwan's leading publication has confirmed that NVIDIA's Ampere GPUs will be launching in 2020 and will be based on the Samsung 7nm EUV process. This is very very...
wccftech.com
Nvidia to Produce Next-generation GPUs through Samsung’s 7-nm EUV Process
Nvidia, the world's second-largest semiconductor design company, will produce its next-generation graphics processing units (GPUs) using Samsung Electronic
www.businesskorea.co.kr
It all adds up now, doesn't it?
SonGoku
Member
Yep that and educated guess
Not my image
I just slapped
wft? I thought the bet was a stock 5700XT (1950MHz)/RTX2070
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Except....if its not 256 bit bus as PCB leak said. With 8x 16Gbps chips you would have 16GB of RAM @ 512 GB/s. Coincidentally, sweet spot for Zen + Navi.
SonGoku
Member
that's with a 256bit bus
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