megreotsugua
Banned
I want another Cerny talk or any dev talk about this.
It seems like PS5's advantage is not only the raw and decompression speed but more so the I/O throughput.
- Status
I want another Cerny talk or any dev talk about this.
It seems like PS5's advantage is not only the raw and decompression speed but more so the I/O throughput.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That's a good idea for you to do that, because we don't have enough information to judge the cooling system yet. I'm willing to believe Cerny knows 2.5 million percent more about the PS5 than you do, but you could end up being right 3 years from now when PS5s are RRODing due to thermal paste issues or some or issues relating to the variable clocks.
ethomaz
Banned
But there are 7GB/s? I believe the speed is related to how many buses you have in your SSD... that means more memory modules = bigger bandwidth.
That is why I'm questioning that 7GB/s SSDs are expensive because needs a lot of buses/memory modules to reach that speed.
Memory modules speeds increase in a very slow pace so to drastic increase the speeds you increase the bus... for that you need more memory modules.
Last edited:
Bo_Hazem
Banned
That I/O I don't really understand it, could you explain or a link?
Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
wow so one Nvme Slot ?There is more.
Replacing the internal SSD with a larger drive
The internal SSD can be replaced with a bigger hard drive with an off-the-shelf drive - meaning NVMe PC drives will work on your console.
PS5 SSD expansion upgrades explained: Compatible SSDs and other external storage options explored
How the PS5's external SSD storage upgrade works, including compatible SSDs and other external storage options, explained.www.eurogamer.net
They are clearly saying there is no addiction slot... it is only one PCI-E 4.0 M.2 NVMe slot where the original SSD is... you can replace it.
Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
i think samsung 980 pro pcie 4.0 is the best option for PS5
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I think he was angry and felt insulted, I feel for him. I think they didn't feed him 100% wrong numbers, but they're probably running some kind of app that shows overall 12.4TF output with that hidden Tempest 3D Audio compute unit engine and other factors in the matter. And the 13TF is probably the 10.5TF that get inflated with that matter as well to 13TF as Cerny said that the can go beyond 2.23Ghz but felt it wasn't stable enough so they tuned it down. That's my guess.
EDIT: The 11.6TF is probably the inflated number of 9.2TF.
Last edited:
CJY
Banned
I dunno. I think it would be far cheaper for them to just buy the NAND chips and integrate them directly on the motherboard.
Because Cerny said a 2% clock reduction resulted in a 10% power save which means they are quite far up the voltage frequency curve.
Not yet, but there will be at the end of the year. Phison will offer a 7GB/s controller at the end of the year. The problem with those SSDs is the heat. For example the Samsung 970 Pro reduces its read spead after about 120 seconds of constant reading from 3.5GB/s to ~2.5GB/s. Like even the Corsair MP600 with its massive cooler hits 50-60°C and without that cooler it hits almost 85°C.
CJY
Banned
There is more.
Replacing the internal SSD with a larger drive
The internal SSD can be replaced with a bigger hard drive with an off-the-shelf drive - meaning NVMe PC drives will work on your console.
PS5 SSD expansion upgrades explained: Compatible SSDs and other external storage options explored
How the PS5's external SSD storage upgrade works, including compatible SSDs and other external storage options, explained.
They are clearly saying there is no addiction slot... it is only one PCI-E 4.0 M.2 NVMe slot where the original SSD is... you can replace it.
Just saw it, wow.
wow if true. I don't see why they'd go with a non-industry standard size of 1TB then. It'll be interesting to find out the real truth in the coming months.
ethomaz
Banned
I just found that one.
The Phison controller rated to 7GB/s needs 8 ch, up to 1200 MT/s each.
The 4 channel controller goes up to 3.75GB/s with only.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Because they wanted 12 channels... so 825GB or 1650GB.
That is why I believe only 12 future channels SSDs will be eligible for replace.
That open a lot of possibilities too.
In the future you can put a 12 channel SSD up to 10.5GB/s (that if the memory not increase speeds)
Last edited:
CJY
Banned
I'm listening to Cerny speak about the SSD again. It gets better each time haha
Imtjnotu
Member
I get that but the chart also says differently. Cerny himself said the nvme slot is for additional but no where did he say the internal stock SSD is removable. Which it won't be.
He also said that the expandable nvme will also connect directly to the same i/o controller as the internal.
Last edited:
megreotsugua
Banned
The I/O is all the custom chips they integrated in the APU to where the SSD connects.
I think there's five of them as explained by Cerny.
CJY
Banned
I guess he might mean this slide of the presentation. De/compression is only one part of the storage delivery pipeline and while the IO block can handle up to 22GB/s, other design choices and customisation has allowed them to further reduce latency and bottlenecks. I think Cerny has created something that is a lot closer to to being "extended VRAM" than the competition. The whole goal of Cerny was to bring the SSD as close to the GPU as possible. It's very similar in concept to Radeon SSG.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Even if it is two slots the internal is definitely replaceable.
It is not cost effective to replace the whole console due a defective SSD.
Because they wanted 12 channels... so 825GB or 1650GB.
That is why I believe only 12 future channels SSDs will be eligible for replace.
That open a lot of possibilities too.
In the future you can put a 12 channel SSD up to 10.5GB/s
But the problem is that you won´t fit 12 NAND chips on a NVME drive. There is not enough space. Even the latest and greatest Samsung will just have 2 NAND chips. 1/3 of the whole board is just for the controller and other parts. Than you have additional cache, etc.
megreotsugua
Banned
Imtjnotu
Member
If it's soldered to the board than it won't be.
I highly doubt they allow you to replace the internal drive at all. Again. Cerny said the expandable nvme slot slots in to the main i/o controller as the internal
Road to PS5. 21 minute mark
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
?
Are you sure about that?
64GB and 128GB modules are very small.
And for 7GB/s you need 8 channels... 8 modules.
Last edited:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Good spot, he did say that the user provided hard drive would connect to the same controller their drive connects to... sounds like soldered to the motherboard to me, but also the system seems like it could boot from either.
IllegalLemon
Member
The good thing about kraken, is its capacity to decode on two threads at once, therefore improving decompression by up to 70%. It has other pluses as well. You can catch up with them here:Welcome back! Glad to see you here
That 20-30% is kinda odd. Speaking of 5.5GB can be compressed up to 22GB sounds more like 75% compressing, BGs seen 20GB/s in action as well. Great video I just need to watch it now at 1.25x speed
www.radgametools.com/oodlekraken.htm
megreotsugua
Banned
The reason Sony is doing 12 chips (relatively slow) is to save cost. You can achieve 7Gbps with 6 nand chips.
It doesn't matter actually how many as long as it matches the speed or exceed it. Thr problem is the 6 priority lanes that Sony implemented. That will be account for if the SSD only has two. Cerny said perhaps an SSD with 7Gbps BW can compensate for the lack of the priority lanes.
CJY
Banned
The concept is actually exactly the same but the intent is different, but the concept and execution are remarkably similar. The only real difference between between SSG and PS5 is that SSG has HBM on 2048-bit bus vs. PS5's GDDR6 @ 256-bit. Considering the intended workload (games), I think this is a fine sacrifice.
SSG was not developed with games in mind, but Cerny is architecting PS5 with a single focus of gaming. It remains to be seen the benefits when it comes to gaming, but the tech is very similar and it all comes down to the software.
Fake
Member
I guess is because SSG by AMD are focus on computing purposes (PC, laptop, servers), but can be exclusive for gaming if you made some changes/custom.
ethomaz
Banned
Cerny talks about the choose for 12 chips... it in fact increase the cost.
It is because he wants the 12 channels independent.
You can watch the road of PS5 and he gives the reason do that.
I can see they having issues with less channels SSDs but like you said more speed can compensate it.
Last edited:
T-I-N-M-A-N dX
Member
I feel bad that the PS5 guys gotta do so much digging to be hyped for their console.
It's a PS5 it's gonna be
regardless, why y'all looking for all the yabuts
It's a PS5 it's gonna be
regardless, why y'all looking for all the yabuts
MarkMe2525
Banned
My issue with your argument that fixed isn't better than variable is that this is not a game Dev issue, but a console design issue. MS has shown twice now that it now knows how to integrate an appropriate cooling solution for their console. So assuming that MS's cooling solution is adequate then fixed is better.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Sounds about right. I think some people forget that the CPUs have a decent bit of TF performance themselves, as well. Not anywhere to the level of the GPUs, but there are CPUs out there with 1 TF performance for example.
They capped the PS5's GPU to 2.23 GHz because of power-related reasons; it's possible Big Navi cards from AMD on PC later this year won't have that limitation so they could hit even higher frequencies and keep stable.
megreotsugua
Banned
I feel bad that the PS5 guys gotta do so much digging to be hyped for their console.
It's a PS5 it's gonna be
Hey, we simply want to be clear about the memory expansion set-up.
Many details are still not disclosed. So we're speculating.
CJY
Banned
This is my favorite part of a new-gen launch to be honest. The really good games come much later.I feel bad that the PS5 guys gotta do so much digging to be hyped for their console.
It's a PS5 it's gonna be
Edit: At this stage, I'd also prefer some impressive tech demos than actual games. A platform's top, truly next-gen games rarely come out within 1-2 years of a console launch. Nintendo is different, cos they're not focused on pushing tech or power.
Last edited:
CJY
Banned
You're conflating cooling solution with the decision to go for fixed vs. variable. The PS5 was designed with variable, continuous boost, constant power delivery from the outset which allows them to clock much higher. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, but PS5 is certainly more interesting.
Okay, I am sorry. I made a mistake. Those black chips you can see on NVME drives are not just one NAND die. They are stacked into one of the black packages. Than 12 NAND chips would be possible.
"With a per-die capacity of 256Gb (32GB), it is not that much of a challenge for Samsung to make the 1TB PM981 a single-sided drive by stacking each of the packages with 16 NAND chips each. The 512GB model uses 8-high stacks and is about 0.4mm thinner as a result. The model number stenciled in the circuit board indicates that Samsung does not plan to use this layout for anything larger than 1TB, so if a 2TB model shows up it will probably use a denser layout of four packages rather than switch to 512Gb NAND dies. "
Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12082/the-samsung-pm981-ssd-review-512gb-1tb-phoenix-3d-nand
Sry, again
ethomaz
Banned
Yes the big black chips on SSDs are encapsulated RAM chips.Okay, I am sorry. I made a mistake. Those black chips you can see on NVME drives are not just one NAND die. They are stacked into one of the black packages. Than 12 NAND chips would be possible.
"With a per-die capacity of 256Gb (32GB), it is not that much of a challenge for Samsung to make the 1TB PM981 a single-sided drive by stacking each of the packages with 16 NAND chips each. The 512GB model uses 8-high stacks and is about 0.4mm thinner as a result. The model number stenciled in the circuit board indicates that Samsung does not plan to use this layout for anything larger than 1TB, so if a 2TB model shows up it will probably use a denser layout of four packages rather than switch to 512Gb NAND dies. "
Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12082/the-samsung-pm981-ssd-review-512gb-1tb-phoenix-3d-nand
Sry, again
Maybe that is why most thinks SSDs uses 1-2 chips only.
If I'm not wrong today you have these options of chips for SSD: 64GiB (512Gb), 128GiB (1024Gb) and 256GiB (2048Gb).
So for 1TB SSDs you need 4x256 or 8x128 for example.
2TB SSDs you go with 8x256.... I can't see 16x128 but your own link shows Samsung using 16 NAND chips so it is possible but very costly too.
Last edited:
CJY
Banned
ethomaz
At 20:10 he says "expandability of our SSD is going to be quite important". This is quite different to "replacing the internal SSD with a larger capacity SSD"
he continues by saying "you may very well want to add storage to whatever we put in the console"
"ideally you would add to your SSD storage"
[on expanded SSD] "install in a bay in the PS5" ... "they connect through the custom IO unit just like our SSD does"
Granted, none of this actually states in absolutely black & white either way, but again, if what eurogamer is saying is true... I'm speechless.
Last edited:
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Indeed, You should remember that Cerny said that The Tempest 3D Audio is an equivalent of 9x ZEN2 cores! And Kraken is as powerful as all 8x Jaguar cores inside PS4. I don't think they can open the devkits to check them from inside as stated by
OsirisBlack
, and the app/program used to estimate overall power won't take into account those unconventional customization. So this is my guess list for the inflated numbers:9.2TF > 11.6TF
10.3 > 12.4TF
10.6-10.9 > 13-13.3TF
He was so angry because people are bashing him and all insiders in a very bad way. Let's give them a break.
HeisenbergFX4
what's your take?
mitchman
Gold Member
Yes, Cerny emphasized how they worked to eliminate the overhead of disk reads, and DMA directly into GPU texture memory takes the CPU, a weak link, out of the equation. I feel this hasn't been emphasized enough in the articles I've seen, perhaps most don't realize how much of an improvement this will be. I've been a dev for 30 years, although not in gaming, I did work on some of the middleware in the Wii.
Moses85
Member
Impressive but he doesn't look like Joel at all.My man, he young here
CJY
Banned
Would you say it feels like Sony went for "expanded RAM" approach and MS went for the "faster storage" approach from what you can gather?
T-I-N-M-A-N dX
Member
I mean I get what your saying and the speculating can be fun. But people are bent outta shape about power differences. Don't be, just concede it. Drop the yabuts, and don't worry about it.
Not saying YOU, but in general fanboys that look for secret sauce and just wanna say XSX only "whatever" % higher. Just concede and say yeah your plastic box got my plastic box GG, now lets see what we can play.
A yes there were sad XBone kids dropping yabuts all the way too but they were sad, don't be like that
HeisenbergFX4
Member
Bo_Hazem
My take is both systems are going to be great.I think on multiplat games they will be so close graphically most people wont be able to see any differences between the two systems.
I also think the SSD on the PS5 wont give any huge gains on multiplat games.
Whichever system people buy they will be thrilled with.
Just buy which system you enjoy the games the most.
For me its PS5 day one and probably XsX down the road as I have a pretty beastly PC.
CJY
Banned
Nah, there aren't really that many "yabuts" chatting in here now (Thank fuck for that). Before the reveals, many thought both these consoles were gonna be PC shoved in boxes with different badges on them like last gen, (which is also why most people in both camps just focused on unreliable metric of Tflops) but this is absolutely not true with PS5, there is a lot of exotic stuff going on under the hood. That's why people are interested in understanding more, and that understanding is leading to more hype. People aren't just needlessly hyping PS5 because of an inferiority complex like many think. It's just genuinely interesting. Sorry you don't feel the same.
Also, I haven't seen any PS fans get butthurt about a 15% deficit in Flops. PS fans are not that stupid.
Last edited:
DrDamn
Member
I'm PS5 day one and XSX after a year. Only got an X1X towards the end of last year so that all suits me well. Given I was likely going to buy both anyway I'm liking that there are some distinctions/strengths between the two which will hopefully translate to a wider variety of experiences across the exclusives for me.
Last edited:
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I guess it's "interesting" in the sense that it's really only something that's been done with PCs in mind, but whether that being interesting actually translates to gains in performance beyond what we can currently imagine, we'll have to see. I just take Cerny's "better-than-linear-scaling" comment as PR fluff though, because RDNA1 cards don't scale performance very well at higher frequencies.
It's possible the problem's been resolved with RDNA2 though; RDNA1 resolved the frontend bottleneck FTMP and RDNA2 even moreso. It's very likely both PS5 and XSX will benefit greatly from advances by AMD on the frequency scaling-to-performance and frontend bottleneck removals for RDNA2.
Indeed, You should remember that Cerny said that The Tempest 3D Audio is an equivalent of 9x ZEN2 cores! And Kraken is as powerful as all 8x Jaguar cores inside PS4. I don't think they can open the devkits to check them from inside as stated by
9.2TF > 11.6TF
10.3 > 12.4TF
10.6-10.9 > 13-13.3TF
He was so angry because people are bashing him and all insiders in a very bad way. Let's give them a break.
My only question with them then is why did they not factor XSX TF performance figures in a similar way? It has a lot of the same customizations going by what MS has mentioned, even if the SSD is about 2.5x slower (well, the flash memory controller, anyway). IIRC one of XSX's chips for SSD purposes is equivalent to 5 Zen 2 cores, and it has the dedicated audio processor as well, etc.
If they were factoring in PS5's CPU, custom chips etc. to arrive at those PS5 numbers that didn't end up being reflective of just the GPU, and if they knew specs on both systems, why was that not done with XSX numbers as well? Maybe their sources were the ones responsible? It would've been more helpful if they just gave them the GPU numbers only because at that point everyone was only focusing on the GPUs.
Last edited:
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I hear you but no-one can reliably concede anything right now as all we've got is literally two separate tables with numbers on them.
So we've gotta wait til exclusives and multiplat comparisons arrive before we get a better picture.
Last edited:
MarkMe2525
Banned
Not entirely, I was responding to an point made that was suggesting variable clocks were better than fixed due to cooling constraints.
If complexity is interesting then I will agree that ps5 has the edge there. Now we have to wait to see if this translates into better games which I'm suspicious of. Complexity has in the past introduced inefficient code. Now. Just going off of past consoles and this gen could be different to my admission, but there are examples. Sega's half-step consoles such as 32x and Sega cd, Sega Saturn, Atari Jaguar, first few years of ps3, Xbox one esram set up.
These departures from a simple pipeline caused game development to suffer.
- Status