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[DeepEnigma]

Yeap AMD has a new unknown architecture that is no x86_64 and GPU not GCN related.

This is getting silly now. E3 hurry up and get here.

 

[Negotiator]

i swore both sony and MS were making a profit at ps4/xbone launch

They did:

It's funny how PS4 Pro has an even lower BoM cost than OG PS4... talk about skimping on hardware specs.

 

[mckmas8808]

They did:

It's funny how PS4 Pro has an even lower BoM cost than OG PS4... talk about skimping on hardware specs.

Interesting.

 

[demigod]

He posts on Reee.

So is he the one that posted the leak on reddit?

 

[ResilientBanana]

Yeah, I think this is becoming a Meme at this point. Well I'm a freelance graphic designer and my dog told me that the Xbox Dev kit uses an old IBM 5100 and can time travel.

Also, X570 is a chipset for motherboards. Zen 3 will most likely be the same socket type as Zen 2. But why would AMD advertise Zen 3 when Zen 2 isn't even out yet?

 

[TeamGhobad]

Yeah, I think this is becoming a Meme at this point. Well I'm a freelance graphic designer and my dog told me that the Xbox Dev kit uses an old IBM 5100 and can time travel.

Also, X570 is a chipset for motherboards. Zen 3 will most likely be the same socket type as Zen 2. But why would AMD advertise Zen 3 when Zen 2 isn't even out yet?

nexbox might use zen2 with some zen3 features implemented like more than 2 threads per core. its all rumors.

 

[Fake]

Zen 2.5?

 

[Ar¢tos]

nexbox might use zen2 with some zen3 features implemented like more than 2 threads per core. its all rumors.

The one thing you don't want, is a significantly better CPU than the competition, because 3rd party games will be developed around the limitations of the weakest cpu. Gpu power difference can always be used for better effects.

 

[devilNprada]

So i should add disclaimer of further hidden costs, i see no reason to discard the whole thing unless the numbers are wrong
edit: The author never claimed ps4 sold without loss, it says in the tittle BOM Losses, so its technically correct

Hes basing the loss off MSRP though... That in itself is wrong... No retailer pays MSRP and possibly their cost is just slightly lower, but I guarantee all the big box stores are all getting large incentives and allowances off invoice you have to also factor in.

That picture you see on the best buy add... Sony pays for that off invoice

 

[ResilientBanana]

The one thing you don't want, is a significantly better CPU than the competition, because 3rd party games will be developed around the limitations of the weakest cpu. Gpu power difference can always be used for better effects.

One thing toted last gen was the amazing quality of the Playstation Exclusives, that alone sold systems. The only thing people care about for 3rd party is if they are simply available. But each system will have a development kit for the sole reason of taking advantage of that particular systems advantages.

Hes basing the loss off MSRP though... That in itself is wrong... No retailer pays MSRP and possibly their cost is just slightly lower, but I guarantee all the big box stores are all getting large incentives and allowances off invoice you have to also factor in.

That picture you see on the best buy add... Sony pays for that off invoice

They also pay for the space of the shelf it sits on.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Hes basing the loss off MSRP though... That in itself is wrong... No retailer pays MSRP and possibly their cost is just slightly lower, but I guarantee all the big box stores are all getting large incentives and allowances off invoice you have to also factor in.

That picture you see on the best buy add... Sony pays for that off invoice

I imagine that xbox consoles are still sold at a loss in many European countries. I often see the X1X bundle with 3 games being sold cheaper that the PSs4pro with 1 game.

 

[devilNprada]

well he did, like i explained. you can't put up sony cost against revenue of the dealer. and conclude sony doesn't make a loss. that's logical flaw no matter how one spins it.


disclaimer: im not saying sony made a loss with ps4. they didn't!!




yeah i know what was meant. it was a rhetorically phrase, expressing that i don't think that this figure makes much sense. (but i might change my mind about that if somebody gives me a valid point)

I think I get what he's trying to do.. He's trying to take sum of the parts at MSRP and compare it to the retail price, thinking he can back in to the PS5 retail?

Makes some sense I guess, but yeah pretty flawed.

 

[SonGoku]

well he did, like i explained. you can't put up sony cost against revenue of the dealer. and conclude sony doesn't make a loss. that's logical flaw no matter how one spins it.

Its not a spin though, its a valid comparison to make to appreciate the difference between retail price and bom, and it also serves as reference of console manufacturers willingness to sell at BOM cost or less. I brought it up to make a point that it wouldn't be unrealistic for Sony to undercut its BOM at retail for 50-100 if they thought selling for $400 was worth it.
Say PS2 for example, if was already undercutting its BOM at retail by $179 ($262.74 adjusted to inflation) , it means Sony was taking even bigger losses per console sold, yet in the end was worth it.

i don't think that this figure makes much sense.

Im no economics expert, so i don't know the proper technical term to describe it, but you know what is trying to convey.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

Call me crazy but I like the Anaconda codename and since the lesser spec Xbox could end up being really fucking dumb (I hope it isn't) I'm calling it the Snek. So the good Xbox gets to keep it's name and the potential fuck up gets to be known as Snek in my book. I mean I like the idea of having 2 skus, it's just that they have to be spec'd/priced appropriately for it to work and MS certainly doesn't have the best track record there.

So Anaconda:

& Snek (Lockhart) since it's a possibly crappy alternative/impostor:

 

[DeepEnigma]

Call me crazy but I like the Anaconda codename and since the lesser spec Xbox could end up being really fucking dumb (I hope it isn't) I'm calling it the Snek. So the good Xbox gets to keep it's name and the potential fuck up gets to be known as Snek in my book. I mean I like the idea of having 2 skus, it's just that they have to be spec'd/priced appropriately for it to work and MS certainly doesn't have the best track record there.

So Anaconda:

& Snek (Lockhart) since it's a possibly crappy alternative/impostor:

But that’s a rattlesnake tho.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

But that’s a rattlesnake tho.

JUST LET ME HAVE MY SNAKE METAPHOR DAMNIT!

 

[DeepEnigma]

JUST LET ME HAVE MY SNAKE METAPHOR DAMNIT!

Hissss

 

[SonGoku]

In theory MS should have the upper hand in Power because of the blades construction in servers, as you buy in larger volumes from vendors, it’s not that hard to understand. A pretty smart decision business wise.

Just to show you the other side of the coin
Catering your design to server/machine learning means you'll lnvest die budget in other than gaming or potentially worse going with an older arch(Vega).
A purely gaming focused chip designed will hold the edge. Not saying this is what will happen, im just pointing out its not so simple and unless we have a crystal ball there's no way to tell this far in advance who hold the performance advantage.

He posts on Reee.

Nice find! He is one of the few non trash posters on reeera, i enjoy reading his analysis.

 

[devilNprada]

Its not a spin though, its a valid comparison to make to appreciate the difference between retail price and bom, and it also serves as reference of console manufacturers willingness to sell at BOM cost or less. I brought it up to make a point that it wouldn't be unrealistic for Sony to undercut its BOM at retail for 50-100 if they thought selling for $400 was worth it.
Say PS2 for example, if was already undercutting its BOM at retail by $179 ($262.74 adjusted to inflation) , it means Sony was taking even bigger losses per console sold, yet in the end was worth it.

Im no economics expert, so i don't know the proper technical term to describe it, but you know what is trying to convey.

Please stop, you are confusing. These are obvioulsy not Sony's bill of material costs but quite likely the sum of each individual part at MSRP.

Sony may or may not take a loss on a console but No they will not sell it lower than direct cost which does include the Bill of Materials.. I would put my left nut on it.

 

[ResilientBanana]

JUST LET ME HAVE MY SNAKE METAPHOR DAMNIT!

I vote Anaconda / Snek

 

[SonGoku]

Hes basing the loss off MSRP though... That in itself is wrong... No retailer pays MSRP and possibly their cost is just slightly lower

I acknowledged that, still a valid comparison for contrast between the two

you are confusing.

What am i confusing? I already aknowledged there's other costs involved besides BOM (retailer, shipping, packaging etc)

These are obvioulsy not Sony's bill of material costs but quite likely the sum of each individual part at MSRP.

They are BOM numbers though, OP provided source and what's more those are generally accepted numbers that don't contradict with other sources. (look up on this page another matching source)

Sony may or may not take a loss on a console but No they will not sell it lower than direct cost which does include the Bill of Materials.. I would put my left nut on it.

Im not saying they will, Im pointing out that its not unlikely/unrealistic to happen based on past console history

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

JUST LET ME HAVE MY SNAKE METAPHOR DAMNIT!

 

[DemonCleaner]

a 512bit bus would mean 16 single GDDR6 packages. which would not only mean around 40-60 bucks of
additional cost [compared to a 384bit bus based on 2GB packages] but would probably also be very difficult PCB layout wise. IDK guys...


edit: post was unclear sorry. corrected.

 

[SonGoku]

DemonCleaner
He's not saying 512bit bus will be used (384bit is much more likely). He is just making a point of how much left over space there is by GCN 64 CU limit at 7nm.

 

[DemonCleaner]

DemonCleaner
He's not saying 512bit bus will be used (384bit is much more likely). He is just making a point of how much left over space there is by GCN 64 CU limit at 7nm.

yeah i got that this was the gist of his post. i think there was going on some side discussion though. just wanted to set this straight before the next crazy made up leak with 32GB of ram @ 512bit crops up.

 

[Meowzers]

Sneksbox works for me.

 

[Negotiator]

32GB 512-bit GDDR6 would be nuts (1 TB/s), but the console would most likely cost $599.

 

[Insane Metal]

32GB 512-bit GDDR6 would be nuts (1 TB/s), but the console would most likely cost $999.

Fixed


j/k

 

[LordOfChaos]

The idea of trying to put a FP64 optimised server part in a home console is so totally fucking nuts it makes me wonder if there's truth in this rumour - you'd have to be literally batshit crazy to make that up ...

Not saying I believe that's an insider, but it's maybe not so nuts because that's literally like Vega, AMD didn't put the R&D into splitting out the compute and graphics lines and as such Vega was a monster FP64 card for the cost but not so efficient at perf/watt in gaming. Rumor also was Navi would be better split out. VII is effectively a baby compute card more than an appealing gaming one.

Now if Sony co-funded Navi to gain console exclusivity over it...

 

[CyberPanda]

Let’s just call the more powerful Xbox, Dong.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Nice find! He is one of the few non trash posters on reeera, i enjoy reading his analysis.

Yes, he is a good poster on both sites. I didn't want to call him out, but I had seen that name paired with thoughtful posting about next-gen. If he is, he is.

 

[JLMC469]

It’s amazing seeing how some people over react and/or over analyze this rumors, that change daily, from different “insiders”.

 

[SonGoku]

32GB 512-bit GDDR6 would be nuts (1 TB/s), but the console would most likely cost $599.

You could theoretically get near 1 TB/s (960GB/s) with 24GB GDDR6 on a 384bit bus.

Spoiler

16 Gbps / 8 = 2 Gbps
2 x 384 = 768 GB/s

18 Gbps / 8 = 2.25 Gbps
2.25 x 384 = 864 GB/s

20 Gbps / 8 = 2.5 Gbps
2.5 x 384 = 960 GB/s

 

[Negotiator]

Does anyone else think that the recent Sony/MS partnership news make a x86-based PS3 emulator even more likely?

It seems that Sony cannot expand PS Now on their own (very limited in country availability) and apparently they need MS to help them with their Azure infrastructure (which has a global presence).

This investment will most likely go the way of the dodo: https://www.engadget.com/2012/07/02/sony-buys-gaikai/

Since MS only has x86 blades on Azure, wouldn't it make sense to develop a suitable PS3 emulator? Something that can run in real time on a strong enough, next-gen APU...

Bonus thought: MS could even help Sony with the expertise they already have from developing 360 BC on XB1.

They said they're gonna collaborate by making common dev tools for their platforms, so why not?

 

[SonGoku]

Microsoft GDC talk on Variable Rate Shading (the feature that might be implemented on Navi)

 

[LordOfChaos]

AMD to detail Ryzen 2 and Navi architectural details at Hot Chips

AMD to Detail Zen 2, Navi Architectures Come Hot Chips in August

The Hot Chips conference is one of the leading-edge grounds for discussion of new silicon-bound technologies, and AMD will, as usual, take to its grounds in an effort to detail their efforts in their technology fields. The conference's organization has already confirmed a number of participants...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[ethomaz]

AMD to detail Ryzen 2 and Navi architectural details at Hot Chips

AMD to Detail Zen 2, Navi Architectures Come Hot Chips in August

The Hot Chips conference is one of the leading-edge grounds for discussion of new silicon-bound technologies, and AMD will, as usual, take to its grounds in an effort to detail their efforts in their technology fields. The conference's organization has already confirmed a number of participants...

www.techpowerup.com

Well that is after Navi launch, no? So we will have all details already.

Well at least by Q3 I believe the usual AMD July releases.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Does anyone else think that the recent Sony/MS partnership news make a x86-based PS3 emulator even more likely?

It seems that Sony cannot expand PS Now on their own (very limited in country availability) and apparently they need MS to help them with their Azure infrastructure (which has a global presence).

This investment will most likely go the way of the dodo: https://www.engadget.com/2012/07/02/sony-buys-gaikai/

Since MS only has x86 blades on Azure, wouldn't it make sense to develop a suitable PS3 emulator? Something that can run in real time on a strong enough, next-gen APU...

Bonus thought: MS could even help Sony with the expertise they already have from developing 360 BC on XB1.

They said they're gonna collaborate by making common dev tools for their platforms, so why not?

This would be cool, but so we know the backend behind the PS3 blades?

They have the PS4 blades as well, which are x86 obviously, but I assume they have to have some kind of middleware instruction already for the PS3 blades on AWS/OpenStack they are currently on which are usually Linux servers, and OpenBSD (Sony firmware) is Linux based.

The PS3 also was based of OpenBSD I believe and did have Linux kernel at one time, so I assume the PS3 blades communicate just fine in an x86 environment.

 

[Negotiator]

This would be cool, but so we know the backend behind the PS3 blades?

They have the PS4 blades as well, which are x86 obviously, but I assume they have to have some kind of middleware instruction already for the PS3 blades on AWS/OpenStack they are currently on which are usually Linux servers, and OpenBSD (Sony firmware) is Linux based.

The PS3 also was based of OpenBSD I believe and did have Linux kernel at one time, so I assume the PS3 blades communicate just fine in an x86 environment.

We do (it's custom PS3 hardware):

Sony creates custom PS3 hardware for PlayStation Now

Sony has developed brand new PS3 hardware to power its PlayStation Now streaming service, revealed earlier this month a…

www.eurogamer.net

PS3/PS4/Vita OS is FreeBSD-based (same for Switch).

 

[Fake]

AMD and XBOX will give us more info at E3 I believe.

 

[DeepEnigma]

We do (it's custom PS3 hardware):

Sony creates custom PS3 hardware for PlayStation Now

Sony has developed brand new PS3 hardware to power its PlayStation Now streaming service, revealed earlier this month a…

www.eurogamer.net

PS3/PS4/Vita OS is FreeBSD-based (same for Switch).

Right, but what I am saying is, isn’t AWS/OpenStack already x86 Linux based servers?

So it will be the handshake software that gets altered to run on Windows based Azure, correct?

 

[Negotiator]

Right, but what I am saying is, isn’t AWS/OpenStack already x86 Linux based servers?

So it will be the handshake software that gets altered to run on Windows based Azure, correct?

No, Sony uses PS3 blades (Cell/RSX/Rambus), not x86/PC-based hardware.

Handshaking/networking protocols (TCP/IP) are irrelevant and platform-agnostic.

 

[Panajev2001a]

No, Sony uses PS3 blades (Cell/RSX/Rambus), not x86/PC-based hardware.

Handshaking/networking protocols (TCP/IP) are irrelevant and platform-agnostic.

I think that as soon as Sony can get a PC emulator running the way they want to for PS3/2/1 (maybe running on PS5 HW which would allow them to more easily stream PS4 and PS5 games) they will be even happier than PC gamers are with such news . The idea would be to one day have powerful enough blades that can simulate multiple PS5/PS4/... game sessions based on commodity x86 CPU’s and Radeon GPU’s is not that far and would help then expand their reach considerably.

 

[ethomaz]

PSNow uses PS3 blades only for PS3 streaming... PS4 uses normal PC clusters hardware for streaming.

 

[DeepEnigma]

No, Sony uses PS3 blades (Cell/RSX/Rambus), not x86/PC-based hardware.

Handshaking/networking protocols (TCP/IP) are irrelevant and platform-agnostic.

I know they are PS3 blades.

I was just confused by your comment about Azure being x86 since it is no different than AWS/OpenStack being x86 as well, other than the server kernels being Linux or Windows based.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Well that is after Navi launch, no? So we will have all details already.

Well at least by Q3 I believe the usual AMD July releases.

Hot Chips is for deeper dives than most journalists will ever take the time or have the skill to find, will be interesting even post launch

 

[Negotiator]

I know they are PS3 blades.

I was just confused by your comment about Azure being x86 since it is no different than AWS/OpenStack being x86 as well, other than the server kernels being Linux or Windows based.

OK, let me clarify myself:

MS already has blades with XB1 APUs. They even plan to add Anaconda APUs in the future.

Assuming that Sony no longer manufactures PS3 blades, since it's ancient & non-scalable technology with no further die shrinks (RSX is at 28nm, Cell is at 32-45nm), wouldn't it make sense to develop a PC-based PS3 emulator that can run on PS5/Anaconda APUs?

PS Now expansion has always been slow for some reason, maybe it's because Sony doesn't have a lot of PS3 capacity (in terms of native hardware).

If a native PS3 blade dies, they'll need to replace it somehow. What if there are no replacements in 2019-2020 and beyond? They'll need to find another way. That's all I'm saying.

I think that as soon as Sony can get a PC emulator running the way they want to for PS3/2/1 (maybe running on PS5 HW which would allow them to more easily stream PS4 and PS5 games) they will be even happier than PC gamers are with such news . The idea would be to one day have powerful enough blades that can simulate multiple PS5/PS4/... game sessions based on commodity x86 CPU’s and Radeon GPU’s is not that far and would help then expand their reach considerably.

I mean, it would make sense to also sell PS3 games to PS5 customers, so why not?

Even more money for Sony & 3rd party publishers and preservation of the rich PS3 library for gamers. Sounds like win-win to me!

 

[Insane Metal]

I want more leaks...

Good ones

 

[DeepEnigma]

OK, let me clarify myself:

MS already has blades with XB1 APUs. They even plan to add Anaconda APUs in the future.

Assuming that Sony no longer manufactures PS3 blades, since it's ancient & non-scalable technology with no further die shrinks (RSX is at 28nm, Cell is at 32-45nm), wouldn't it make sense to develop a PC-based PS3 emulator that can run on PS5/Anaconda APUs?

PS Now expansion has always been slow for some reason, maybe it's because Sony doesn't have a lot of PS3 capacity (in terms of native hardware).

If a native PS3 blade dies, they'll need to replace it somehow. What if there are no replacements in 2019-2020 and beyond? They'll need to find another way. That's all I'm saying.


I mean, it would make sense to also sell PS3 games to PS5 customers, so why not?

Even more money for Sony & 3rd party publishers and preservation of the rich PS3 library for gamers. Sounds like win-win to me!

I get what you are saying now, and yes that makes sense.

 

[GermanZepp]

I want more leaks...

Good ones