Support NeoGAF

[IllegalLemon]

Wait, really?! Wow, so Mark is more of consultant? I'd imagine he's more hands-on tho in the day-to-day operations given his title. Very cool, otherwise - I didn't know that.

He has his own organisation eponymously called Cerny games and gets contacted by Sony to design new hardware. He's one of the main people who contributed to the creation of the Initiative for a Common Engine also known as WWS' ICE team. He contributes massively to the R&D of new console hardware and has a massive passion for both game development and Hardware development, having invested a ton of time researching the art himself. His first game was Marble Madness which he developed for Atari's first gaming platform back in 1984.

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Let me give you the very short explanation as it's a bloated subject at this point and you'll get plenty of explanation if you use the search function:

(You don't need to do any extra work as a dev, the system (API, I/O, etc) is programmed to load only assets needed within your sight like on Horizon Zero Dawn but on steroids (more room for CPU/GPU optimization for more graphics and computations with less to no waste).

If you don't get it, watch the whole SSD talk in the GDC event and hear it directly from Markitect and it's explained thoroughly and clearly, people pretend that he's talking in a Mayan language..

You completely missed the point.
Yes there will be lots of improvements, but most of those are going to be limited to games exclusive to the PS5, all multiplats will be designed with HDDs in mind as most PC's don't have SSD's yet

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

So even though every site says PS5 has 36 CU active, you're thinking if the system has some disabled CUs in good condition, some PS5 systems might have 37 CU to work with?

So some systems will work better than others?

No they won't. All PS5s will perform the same.

 

[DeepEnigma]

He has his own organisation eponymously called Cerny games and gets contacted by Sony to design new hardware. He's one of the main people who contributed to the creation of the Initiative for a Common Engine also known as WWS' ICE team. He contributes massively to the R&D of new console hardware and has a massive passion for both game development and Hardware development, having invested a ton of time researching the art himself. His first game was Marble Madness which he developed for Atari's first gaming platform back in 1984.

I had Marble Madness on my NES. The OG Dark Souls of puzzlers.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

You completely missed the point.
Yes there will be lots of improvements, but most of those are going to be limited to games exclusive to the PS5, all multiplats will be designed with HDDs in mind as most PC's don't have SSD's yet

Ok, let's do it again:

You, as a dev, don't need to load every freaking part of the map within your 45degree of sight. Other slower systems need to load at least for like 70-360degree of assets with trumped quality using mesh shading (if it could do that) or with more duplicated assets so you don't face black/empty spaces when you turn fast, resulting in performance penalty not needed on the CPU/RAM/GPU.

 

[IllegalLemon]

More into it:




It's suggesting that the company that Sony was trying to strike a deal with to implement software-based ray-tracing for current PS4 games might be Crytek. This could represent the HDR implementation/emulation on SDR, non-HDR games. Pretty interesting stuff, and could as well help to minimize the ray tracing penalty in future next gen gaming to have a hybrid solution.

PS4 Will Receive Software-Based Ray-Tracing for Crysis Remake

More into it: It's suggesting that the company that Sony was trying to strike a deal with to implement software-based ray-tracing for current PS4 games might be Crytek. This could represent something like the HDR implementation/emulation on SDR, non-HDR games. Pretty interesting stuff, and...

www.neogaf.com

Well I mean Killzone Shadowfall had utilised RayTraced glossy reflections and that was a launch title, so I'll definitely commend the team @ Guerilla Games for pulling off a form of raytracing that early in the 8tn gen. Killzone Shadowfall was a beautiful looking game, in a way, still is!!!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Well I mean Killzone Shadowfall had utilised RayTraced glossy reflections and that was a launch title, so I'll definitely commend the team @ Guerilla Games for pulling off a form of raytracing that early in the 8tn gen. Killzone Shadowfall was a beautiful looking game, in a way, still is!!!

I'm still waiting for a game to beat The Order 1886. It feels too good to be true for this gen.

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Ok, let's do it again:

You, as a dev, don't need to load every freaking part of the map within your 45degree of sight. Other slower systems need to load at least for like 70-360degree of assets with trumped quality using mesh shading (if it could do that) or with more duplicated assets so you don't face black/empty spaces when you turn fast.

Em... Is this what you're talking about?

 

[Sosokrates]

And it's unlikely it'll be a stripped non graphics CU within the same 36 block.

Considering we have the TF amount that's not based on 35, but 36, no?

Ive already addressed this point in a prior post.

 

[Metroiddarks]

I want to know something

How is the Playstation 5's SSD a "gamechanger" when all of the multiplatform games will be targeting HDD?

Eh not the target for most of the dev are the consoles so in this year you should start to see the first game which requires to use at least a SSD sata 3.

Maybe the next year you will see some AAA games or even indies requiring NVME of at least 2 GB/s (as XSX), this should be the new standard for new gen of games
also in pc is possible the bandwidth requirement be around 4 GB/s (as the limit of data compressed in XSX) also the games in pc could use as cache more ram so is
possible in just a couple of years the minimum quantity of ram will multiply to play a new game. Even if the game is only for PS5 and PC this requirement will be much
higher.

For the SSD of PS5 can be use for third parties using heavier textures or assets in general also the loading screen can be much smaller, not only the first party will use
that also some second parties.

I am agree the adoption of super fast SSD will incremental not just from one day to another all the games will require NVME of more than 2.4 GB/s but will happen. I just ready to see many
pc gamers crying because the new AAA game doesn't run to more 60 fps or even 30 fps in their pc when the reality is the console just raise the standard for the games studios.

 

[Sosokrates]

please explain why you said Cerny should be fired?

I did not say that..

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Em... Is this what you're talking about?

That's part of the solution for slower systems. In PS5 you don't even need load things that you MUST load on other systems, resulting in much more headroom for the CPU/GPU/RAM to do more where needed.

If the games are optimized for PS5, and they will, then other systems need more CPU/GPU/RAM to keep up, especially if it's a fast-paced game with lots of turning around rapidly.

EDIT: Seems like I need to timestamp this again and again, here:

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Eh not the target for most of the dev are the consoles so in this year you should start to see the first game which requires to use at least a SSD sata 3.

Maybe the next year you will see some AAA games or even indies requiring NVME of at least 2 GB/s (as XSX), this should be the new standard for new gen of games
also in pc is possible the bandwidth requirement be around 4 GB/s (as the limit of data compressed in XSX) also the games in pc could use as cache more ram so is
possible in just a couple of years the minimum quantity of ram will multiply to play a new game. Even if the game is only for PS5 and PC this requirement will be much
higher.

For the SSD of PS5 can be use for third parties using heavier textures or assets in general also the loading screen can be much smaller, not only the first party will use
that also some second parties.

I am agree the adoption of super fast SSD will incremental not just from one day to another all the games will require NVME of more than 2.4 GB. I just ready to see many
pc gamers crying because the new AAA game doesn't run to more 60 fps or even 30 fps in their pc when the reality is the console just raise the standard for the games studios.

Sounds very stupid to demand a 2gb SSD for PC games, they'd be losing on the majority of the potential consumers. Just like the won't demand a 2080ti either.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I did not say that..

Read again

Lol cerny does put on his smoke and mirror show when presenting the ps4 pro and PS5, while he wont necessarily lie he somewhat bends the truth to give the best possible impression, cerny would not last very long at sony if he was completely honest about there hardware.

So again, what is he being dishonest about? And why would the truth somehow get him fired? What is "the truth", please enlighten us

 

[Ascend]

I want to know something

How is the Playstation 5's SSD a "gamechanger" when all of the multiplatform games will be targeting HDD?
We'll only see a few improvements, the main one being load times, but then again, comparing SSD load times is like comparing bullet speeds.
The only games to take full advantage of PS5 ludicrously fast SSD are the First Party exclusives, which are going to be totally amazing.
At the end of the day, games are going to look better on the SXS and load faster on the PS5. Both consoles are going to be amazing.

PS5's SSD in particular is not a game changer... SSDs in consoles is the game changer.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Read again



So again, what is he being dishonest about? And why would the truth somehow get him fired? What is "the truth", please enlighten us

The truth is Sony is doomed

 

[AveragePhoenix]

That's part of the solution for slower systems. In PS5 you don't even need load things that you MUST load on other systems, resulting in much more headroom for the CPU/GPU/RAM to do more where needed.

If the games are optimized for PS5, and they will, then other systems need more CPU/GPU/RAM to keep up, especially if it's a fast-paced game with lots of turning around rapidly.

EDIT: Seems like I need to timestamp this again and again, here:

What about PCs with no Mesh Shader capabilities? If the Series X, a "slower system" (Even though everything else is faster aside from the SSD) struggles to run the game that was optimized for the PS5, how badly would a regular computer run?

 

[Metroiddarks]

Sounds very stupid to demand a 2gb SSD for PC games, they'd be losing on the majority of the potential consumers. Just like the won't demand a 2080ti either.

The pc gamers are not the main market for the studios, why do think you only need a weak 2 core cpu (old i3 for example) to run all the games to at least 30 fps
is because the base is the weak cpu of the consoles.

That is why games like Crysis, Metro 2033, Start Citizen are so famous because their base is the pc.

Regarding the GPU that is another topic most of the pc gamer doesn't play in 4k not even in 1440p, so much weaker gpu should be okay to play it in 1080p.

Also this is not first time this happens I don't know how old are you but this happens almost all the changes of generation.

 

[SonGoku]

I dont feel like debating with somone who again chooses to ignore facts

Oh the irony

We dont have confirmation, so it could be one of the 36cus, it is unlikely that there will be only 3 unactive cus. Sony wont want worse yields.

lol come on you are just trolling at this point, how do propose they reach 10.27TF with 35CUs, another one of Cerny's lies?
TE uses a stripped down CU as its frame it does not contribute to the compute throughput, its independent of the 40CUs.

 

[AveragePhoenix]

The pc gamers are not the main market for the studios, why do think you only need a weak 2 core cpu (old i3 for example) to run all the games to at least 30 fps
is because the base is the weak cpu of the consoles.

That is why games like Crysis, Metro 2033, Start Citizen are so famous because their base is the pc.

Regarding the GPU that is another topic most of the pc gamer doesn't play in 4k not even in 1440p, so much weaker gpu should be okay to play it in 1080p.

Also this is not first time this happens I don't know how old are you but this happens almost all the changes of generation.

"PC gamers are not the main market" Okay, now I know you're trolling, good one

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What about PCs with no Mesh Shader capabilities? If the Series X, a "slower system" (Even though everything else is faster aside from the SSD) struggles to run the game that was optimized for the PS5, how badly would a regular computer run?

Well, that's the nasty truth that those PC gamers don't tell you. I personally spent like $3400 on my PC last year (mainly as a workstation though, even if it's a gaming PC that I don't game on), and it'll get raped by PS5. Either way, they can make it less demanding, meaning PS5 can even jump from 60fps to 90-120fps mark or push the draw distance even further.

 

[Metroiddarks]

"PC gamers are not the main market" Okay, now I know you're trolling, good one

No I am not .... you live in a strange world

 

[Sosokrates]

Read again



So again, what is he being dishonest about? And why would the truth somehow get him fired? What is "the truth", please enlighten us

I never said he was being dishonest, i even say it there in my post that cerny "wont necessarily lie"
He misses out any disadvantages or negative aspects of the PS5 therefore no telling the complete truth.
So if he were to tell the complete truth, he would not last long at sony.
Ive already given an example of this.
If you can not be bothered to read my posts i see little point in bothering with you.

 

[ethomaz]

Is Digital foundry all knowing and always right? If not, then this is not good enough evidence.

Like if they did this:

had two PC setups:

setup 1) 10tflops with 1.5Ghz gpu
setup 2) 10flops with 2.0GHz gpu

(numbers from my hat)

and otherwise identical setups, and if/when they didnt see differences then only thing that this experiment reveals is:

On these PC setups it didn't matter in PC games

IMO it is kind of arrogant from their behalf to claim (if they did) that they prove "higher clocks wont give better perf on same tflops on console"

Console is closed system with custom GPU with custom optimizations, so it may or may not be true. But they prove nothing about PS5 with this test, unless they have 2 different PS5s.

And of course performance is dependent of what the GPU is doing. I'm sure that higher clocks vs wider approaches both have things that they show their true power and on some cases being faster or wider wont do much

Also kind of arrogant from them to think they know more about PS5 than Cerny/Sony.. I have lost interest in them as they seem more like "group that got famous and now are doing things that they arent smart/skilled enough" than real professionals that dont do false assumptions

DF uses a Navi 10 at 2100Mhz that basically kills their purpose of tests lol

 

[SonGoku]

So even though every site says PS5 has 36 CU active, you're thinking if the system has some disabled CUs in good condition, some PS5 systems might have 37 CU to work with?

So some systems will work better than others?

TE is not part of the SA block, it's independent of the 40CUs package

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Well, that's the nasty truth that those PC gamers don't tell you. I personally spent like $3400 on my PC last year (mainly as a workstation though, even if it's a gaming PC that I don't game on), and it'll get raped by PS5. Either way, they can make it less demanding, meaning PS5 can even jump from 60fps to 90-120fps mark or push the draw distance even further.

Or how about they optimize for the most used platform (PCs) and then they upscale that to consoles, as they always do?
Edit: As they always do at the start of the gen*

No I am not .... you live in a strange world

A world in which there are more PC's than consoles combined? Yes.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What about PCs with no Mesh Shader capabilities? If the Series X, a "slower system" (Even though everything else is faster aside from the SSD) struggles to run the game that was optimized for the PS5, how badly would a regular computer run?

So what you're saying is, the PC will be holding these consoles back. Got it.

 

[Sosokrates]

Oh the irony

lol come on you are just trolling at this point, how do propose they reach 10.27TF with 35CUs, another one of Cerny's lies?
TE uses a stripped down CU as its frame it does not contribute to the compute throughput, its independent of the 40CUs.

You are like 3rd person to just drive by and be like "oh just trolling"

These petty accusations achieve nothing.

And your quotes of me make no sense.

You are literally just repeating questions others have said, try reading the thread. And dont waste my time

 

[AveragePhoenix]

So what you're saying is, the PC will be holding these consoles back. Got it.

Hard drives will

 

[SonGoku]

A world in which there are more PC's than consoles combined? Yes.

PCs = gaming ?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

A world in which there are more PC's than consoles combined? Yes.

Lol come on you're not seriously using that argument?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Hard drives will

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I never said he was being dishonest, i even say it there in my post that cerny "wont necessarily lie"
He misses out any disadvantages or negative aspects of the PS5 therefore no telling the complete truth.
So if he were to tell the complete truth, he would not last long at sony.
Ive already given an example of this.
If you can not be bothered to read my posts i see little point in bothering with you.

What are the disadvantages or negative aspects of the PS5 he should be pointing out? And did Phil do that with the XSX? Did Nintendo with the Switch? What are you arguing about

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Lol come on you're not seriously using that argument?

Isn't it true? Most people game on PC, Consoles aren't even close.

PCs = gaming ?

No, but they comprise the biggest part of gaming

 

[SonGoku]

You are like 3rd person to just drive by and be like "oh just trolling"

These petty accusations achieve nothing.

And your quotes of me make no sense.

But fuck it keep it up, Ive got time

So explain then your thought process, how does your 35CU + TE theory alings with known info. For starters compute performance

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Em... An empty post?

Edit: Sorry, gif wasn't loading. Yeah, we'll see indeed.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

We dont have confirmation, so it could be one of the 36cus, it is unlikely that there will be only 3 unactive cus. Sony wont want worse yields.

This sounds like bollocks. There's no way that Sony would design the PlayStation 5 to have less CUs dedicated to graphics rendering than the Playstation 4 Pro; I believe that they actually designed the PlayStation 5 to use 36 CUs for graphics rendering partly because it would run PlayStation 4 games more easily than it would otherwise, since 36 CUs is perfectly divisible by the number of functional CUs in the base PlayStation 4 (18CUs, which is exactly half of 36) and is the same number of CUs that the PlayStation 4 Pro uses for graphics rendering.

So, the argument that the PlayStation 5 uses only 35 CUs for graphics rendering is ridiculous and is an attempt to make the PlayStation 5 look weaker than it is, perhaps due to Xbox fanboyism.

 

[ethomaz]

Ok lets say they took one of the GPUs CUs and made it into the Tempest Engine. How do they come up with the 10.28 TF number now? You cant get to this figure with 35 CUs at 2.23Ghz.

PS5's APU has 40 CUs.
So they can use any of 4 non-used CUs for audio.

But they choose to put a CU unit outside the GPU silicon just for audio.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Isn't it true? Most people game on PC, Consoles aren't even close.

No, but they comprise the biggest part of gaming

Look at the minimum requirements of games right now. The majority of PCs can't even reach those, and that's only going to get worse as we enter next gen

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Look at the minimum requirements of games right now. The majority of PCs can't even reach those, and that's only going to get worse as we enter next gen

RE3 requires an AMD Radeon™ R7 260x with 2GB Video RAM and an Intel® Core™ i5-4460

My PC is 5 years old and it far surpassed that

 

[SonGoku]

No, but they comprise the biggest part of gaming

People with Toaster PCs that play LoL and other f2p games arent a group of interest for AAA publishers, consoles have a majority of the userbase that plays/buys new AAA releases.

 

[Ascend]

That's part of the solution for slower systems. In PS5 you don't even need load things that you MUST load on other systems, resulting in much more headroom for the CPU/GPU/RAM to do more where needed.

If the games are optimized for PS5, and they will, then other systems need more CPU/GPU/RAM to keep up, especially if it's a fast-paced game with lots of turning around rapidly.

EDIT: Seems like I need to timestamp this again and again, here:

What you're saying only applies to RAM. Not CPU or GPU. And, hate to burst your bubble, but, the XSX is capable of the same things. The PS5 might have superior RAM usage. With emphasis on 'might'.

 

[Vroadstar]

lol come on you are just trolling at this point, how do propose they reach 10.27TF with 35CUs, another one of Cerny's lies?
TE uses a stripped down CU as its frame it does not contribute to the compute throughput, its independent of the 40CUs.

Sosokrates he's been spreading the same FUD in another thread.

The PS5s audio is actually using a re-engineered AMD GPU compute unit.

Which while may give excellent audio performance it leaves 35 compute units for graphics, and thus further lowering the PS5s GPU power. I would not be surprised if the PS5s gpu runs at under 10tflops most of the time.

 

[AveragePhoenix]

People with Toaster PCs that play LoL and other f2p games arent a group of interest for AAA publishers, consoles have a majority of the userbase that plays/buys new AAA releases.

You're saying AAA publishers care more about their games looking pretty than they care about your money?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

RE3 requires an AMD Radeon™ R7 260x with 2GB Video RAM and an Intel® Core™ i5-4460

My PC is 5 years old and it far surpassed that

Most PCs don't even match that.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What you're saying only applies to RAM. Not CPU or GPU. And, hate to burst your bubble, but, the XSX is capable of the same things. The PS5 might have superior RAM usage. With emphasis on 'might'.

Yeah, and how is that 2.4GB/s doing? That 10GB RAM will get really crowded. And no, XSX can't EVEN dream of what PS5 can do, so far it's barely 4.6x faster than HDD with hard evidence provided by Microsoft themselves. Ever heard of bottlenecks?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

What you're saying only applies to RAM. Not CPU or GPU. And, hate to burst your bubble, but, the XSX is capable of the same things. The PS5 might have superior RAM usage. With emphasis on 'might'.

It can apply to the CPU/GPU. Having to wait on memory to give you the information you need to process slows everything down. Most GPU work is not being fully utilized. We're talking about 50% utilization.

A 120% difference is pretty big.

 

[SonGoku]

PS5's APU has 40 CUs.
So they can use any of 4 non-used CUs for audio.

But they choose to put a CU unit outside the GPU silicon just for audio.

I think it'll be separate from the 40CUs but reside within the GPU

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Most PCs don't even match that.

Most pc's used for gaming (Not necessarily gaming pcs) match that
Unless you're counting my grandma's pc

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Sounds very stupid to demand a 2gb SSD for PC games, they'd be losing on the majority of the potential consumers. Just like the won't demand a 2080ti either.

It's called Master Race not Potato Race for a reason, either keep up, or keep out. You can always join us, your peasant brothers and sisters, we welcome you.