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[Vaztu]

Sure, I get that. But I would rather have the best actual gaming experience than having an impressive demo. If they would come out with something similar now, what does that show you? Only that both systems are very similar, while they want to show you their system is much better. I just hope they don't want to wait until July to show us something, and make use of their June event.

Considering a lot of XGS use Unreal Engine. Their next-gen wow-factor maybe dependent on UE5.

Although to be frank, Hellblade 2 was pretty good cinematics(that was on UE4.25), just looking forward to gameplay though.

 

[FranXico]

Fast loading of XSX and cut the crap, 5 GB in 1 second no excuses

You know, I'm not sure if the PS5 will load every PS4 game in under 1 second either.
I think people need to keep reasonable expectations for both consoles.

 

[yewles1]

Yep, MS has a bit of Sega only 30 years later.

"Sega does what Nintendon't"
"blast processing"

Don't forget "Fly PlayThing, fly"

 

[IntentionalPun]

Thought I'd reply..

Did you read the linked article?

They are talking about backwards compatability... that the XSX doesn't downclock to match next-gen speeds to pull off BC like people think the PS5 will have to for most games.. that their entire BC runs at full speed always so there is no need for a "boost mode."

The tweet is not about the PS5's continuous boost.. it's about backwards compatability.

 

[Neo Blaster]

I wrote it a while back but that 'Mel Gibson picture' thing on June 2 as teased by Grubb could be PS5 hardware reveal. You know the best part about that day? It's a TUESDAY!

Really wondering how 'Mel Gibson picture' becomes 'PS5 form factor reveal'.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Really wondering how 'Mel Gibson picture' becomes 'PS5 form factor reveal'.

He already kinda sorta confirmed it was in reference to Metal Gear Solid, I don't know what specifically but a remastered or new MSG game for next-gen would be so hype!

 

[IntentionalPun]

I don't think anywhere here actually bothered to read the full details of BC that MS released (more of the same that DF covered, but in more detail)

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

news.xbox.com

This is what the dorky tweet was referencing:

Not only should gamers be able to play all of these games from the past, but they should play better than ever before. Backwards compatible games run natively on the Xbox Series X hardware, running with the full power of the CPU, GPU and the SSD. No boost mode, no downclocking, the full power of the Xbox Series X for each and every backward compatible game. This means that all titles run at the peak performance that they were originally designed for, many times even higher performance than the games saw on their original launch platform, resulting in higher and more steady framerates and rendering at their maximum resolution and visual quality. Backwards compatible titles also see significant reductions in in-game load times from the massive leap in performance from our custom NVME SSD which powers the Xbox Velocity Architecture. As I play through my personal backlog as part of our internal testing, all of the incredible games from Xbox One and earlier play best on Xbox Series X.

The team was not content to just rely on the increased hardware performance to improve your playing experience. The team developed new platform level capabilities to ensure all of your games continue to get even better. In partnership with the Xbox Advanced Technology Group, Xbox Series X delivers a new, innovative HDR reconstruction technique which enables the platform to automatically add HDR support to games. As this technique is handled by the platform itself, it allows us to enable HDR with zero impact to the game's performance and we can also apply it to Xbox 360 and original Xbox titles developed almost 20 years ago, well before the existence of HDR.

Beginning with Xbox One X, the compatibility team developed brand new innovations that could be applied to a hand curated list of titles to enhance them even further than what was possible when they were first created. Techniques such as the Heutchy method, which enables titles to render with increased resolutions up to 4K, or applying anisotropic filtering to improve the final image quality bring these classic games up to modern standards, better than ever before.

With all of the additional power and advancements of the Xbox Series X, the compatibility team now has a veritable playground of new capabilities to innovate and push the limits of game preservation and enhancement. The compatibility team has invented brand new techniques that enable even more titles to run at higher resolutions and image quality while still respecting the artistic intent and vision of the original creators. We are also creating whole new classes of innovations including the ability to double the frame rate of a select set of titles from 30 fps to 60 fps or 60 fps to 120 fps.

Sorry to int erupt the "Talk about Tweets" thread with next-gen info.. you may resume bitching about tweets.

 

[Audiophile]

Did you read the linked article?

They are talking about backwards compatability... that the XSX doesn't downclock to match next-gen speeds to pull off BC like people think the PS5 will have to for most games.. that their entire BC runs at full speed always so there is no need for a "boost mode."

The tweet is not about the PS5's continuous boost.. it's about backwards compatability.

My bad, took it on face value and didn't check!

 

[Agnostic2020]

Thought I'd reply..

I think you missed the tweet point. They r saying their BC diesnt need boost or downclock like sony does. Everything runs at boost clock so to speak .

Edit : nvm. I saw someone else mentioned .

 

[FranXico]

I don't think anywhere here actually bothered to read the full details of BC that MS released (more of the same that DF covered, but in more detail)

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

news.xbox.com

This is what the dorky tweet was referencing:

We are also creating whole new classes of innovations including the ability to double the frame rate of a select set of titles from 30 fps to 60 fps or 60 fps to 120 fps.

Other than sheer numbers, there not will be as dramatic a difference in BC support as people expect.

 

[sircaw]

While we are at it whats the most compatible console ever ?? doesn't even make sense haha

After giving it a little bit more thought, there is something i just don't like in the way that Microsoft is conducting their business.

A while back Microsoft were telling everyone that Sony were not their competition.

We keep getting shitty twitter comments or cheap jabs from people lately associated with Microsoft always trying to downplay or throw shade in the PlayStation's direction of late.

Microsoft said they are confident in their machine and their games so why not just let that do the talking instead of the constant smear campaign they are trying to run.

Things like Phil the other day with the unreal engine bit, trying to squeeze abit of positive pr out, it feels so desperate.

I keep going back to people like Dealer and colteastwood and the way they act and the way guests talk on their podcast. They have Microsoft executives on that show and that type of fratboy behavior is now seemly rubbing of on the way Microsft conduct themselves.

You sleep with dogs you get fleas is the expression i believe.

Is this really how Phil Spencer wants his gaming division to be run.

I do want to buy an xbox console to go alongside my ps5 but this kinda of shit is starting to really put me off.

Of late, whenever i see something about xbox, i am starting to feel like i need to go and take a shower.

They really need to be better than the way they are acting.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

And even if they did drop out of consoles after XSX they would have been in the space 23 years plus, that's more than Sega home console. I'd hardly put it in the same field as Zune, Lumia or MiniDisc.

Did I put it in that field? And does it really matter how long they were there if the final result is now they're not?
If Microsoft drops out of the home console market, everyone loses. PlayStation fanatics, too.

 

[FranXico]

I don't think anywhere here actually bothered to read the full details of BC that MS released (more of the same that DF covered, but in more detail)

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

news.xbox.com

This is what the dorky tweet was referencing:

We are also creating whole new classes of innovations including the ability to double the frame rate of a select set of titles from 30 fps to 60 fps or 60 fps to 120 fps.

Other than sheer numbers, there not will be as dramatic a difference in BC support as people expect.

 

[martino]

Backwards compatible games run natively on the Xbox Series X hardware, running with the full power of the CPU, GPU and the SSD. No boost mode, no downclocking

Color me unpressed on loading if it's more than PR talk then.

 

[Moses85]

Really wondering how 'Mel Gibson picture' becomes 'PS5 form factor reveal'.

PS5/DualSense colors in his Face

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

I don't think anywhere here actually bothered to read the full details of BC that MS released (more of the same that DF covered, but in more detail)

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

news.xbox.com

This is what the dorky tweet was referencing:





Sorry to int erupt the "Talk about Tweets" thread with next-gen info.. you may resume bitching about tweets.

People not bothering to read is exactly how marketing works. It's no accident.

 

[BGs]

Two quick things:

1►It is not entirely clear to me that among the games that are going to be presented shortly are the exclusive Powerful ones. The best games may be reserved for August. It is not a confirmation.

2►I see that there has been a lot of discussion about the UE5 demo and some have not focused/understood it well. It seems that some do not know what they have seen/read. I suppose that it must still take a minimum of 7 months for those people to begin to understand it.

 

[Vaztu]

You know, I'm not sure if the PS5 will load every PS4 game in under 1 second either.
I think people need to keep reasonable expectations for both consoles.

I partly agree.

Even if Spider-Man loads under 1 second, devs will put fade-outs and other tricks to transition the scene smoothly (for cinematographic purposes). The transition itself can take 1-2 seconds, maybe more?

 

[Shmunter]

They've got to jump on everything, all that matters is results. Recent politics demonstrates that.

In this case they're relying on people mistakenly associating PS5's fixed power strategy with PC Turbo Boost modes, helped by Cerny using word Boost, and most laypeople associating clock-speed with work done, rather than power-draw and therefore heat as Prime95 will quickly tell you.

It's a bit cheap and underhanded, but it's also aggressive and Microsoft need to make big inroads this generation or I think they'll move entirely to streaming to compete with Stadia and Amazon's offering.
Won't be the first time they've thrown the towel in on some market they've tried to break into.

It's really preaching to the choir tho isn't it. No Sony fan will jump ship for that playground foolery. The only way to bring in the customers is to show something genuinely enticing, and who's doing that better right now? If anything, MS may lose share this gen if they don't show us the money, gears 5 and Minecraft ain't it - no Ill will intended.

 

[Vaztu]

Really wondering how 'Mel Gibson picture' becomes 'PS5 form factor reveal'.

Mel Gibson has salt-pepper beard. So, the console could be shown as two-toned black and white ?

 

[IntentionalPun]

Other than sheer numbers, there not will be as dramatic a difference in BC support as people expect.

I mean I personally hope Sony has similar features/compatibility level as MS (I have several games in my PS4 backlog I want to play boosted on PS5, zero in my Xbox backlog lol).. we just don't know as they haven't said as much.

Every game will get some sort of boost on XSX which is nice; that sentence is about locked framerates which you can't always change. Sony will have the same problem; but we have no clue what other features are coming with their boost mode/how many games will support it.

So proclaiming there will not be a dramatic difference is... quite the statement. We have no clue if ANY BC game will have unlocked or double-locked framerates on PS5.

 

[On Demand]

That PS5 thread on desetera about backwards compatibility is the work of the discord manbaby clubhouse. They couldn't handle too much good PS5 news.

Funny also MS talks about their BC plans, that they already mentioned months ago, afterwards.

 

[sircaw]

Two quick things:

1►It is not entirely clear to me that among the games that are going to be presented shortly are the exclusive Powerful ones. The best games may be reserved for August. It is not a confirmation.

2►I see that there has been a lot of discussion about the UE5 demo and some have not focused/understood it well. It seems that some do not know what they have seen/read. I suppose that it must still take a minimum of 7 months for those people to begin to understand it.

If i don't see Horizon Zero dawn 2 next week you need to go into the Witness protection program, FOR EVER.

 

[xacto]

That's why I don't like the communication from MS. I never saw something similar from Sony in the past.

Honestly, before seeing who posted that, I thought it was some delusional fanboy, but nope, it's straight from the source. Sorry, but it looks like a post coming from TImdog... this is the level of their communication now.

And people are surprised this whole thing is received the way it is. Yes, you're right, you don't see this amateurish posting from Sony.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

It's really preaching to the choir tho isn't it. No Sony fan will jump ship for that playground foolery. The only way to bring in the customers is to show something genuinely enticing, and who's doing that better right now? If anything, MS may lose share this gen if they don't show us the money, gears 5 and Minecraft ain't it - no Ill will intended.

I agree if they just stuck to their own thing and kept showing compelling and innovative games it would look a lot better than this which comes across as focussing and trying to discourage the competition.
That could still happen, though.

 

[geordiemp]

I want to know the PS5 won't down clock under heavy load and down grade the experience with stutters. We have no clue what profile any developers kit demo runs on that does not equal retail and throttling on the PS5.

Ps5 Didnt stutter on the only next gen experience we have seen, UE5 demo.

Bet XSX would puke its guts trying to do that much data that fast, stutter at best;.

I think XSX would struggle and would run the demo much lower quality as ps5 is more powerful for running true ground up next gen stuff we have seen so far.

We wait any XSX next gen experience, anything.

 

[dr guildo]

You mean like titles such as Gran Turismo and Uncharted? You don't need to kill your franchises if they are still good... Do you expect the same from Elder's Scroll or GTA?

The biggest library.

Uncharted is a new IP, it's not an historical IP (by historical, I mean there since the first console) unlike GT.
You see, you made my point, cause you had to bring a game (Uncharted) that was born from the dust and ashes of another one (Jak&Daxter).
If GTA must die for R* to bring a completely new and better license, why not ?! I'm not feared by the change it is for the better.

 

[Corndog]

If they really want to make a big Twitter splash then they could just Tweet $399. That would get Sony's attention, right?

Two quick things:

1►It is not entirely clear to me that among the games that are going to be presented shortly are the exclusive Powerful ones. The best games may be reserved for August. It is not a confirmation.

2►I see that there has been a lot of discussion about the UE5 demo and some have not focused/understood it well. It seems that some do not know what they have seen/read. I suppose that it must still take a minimum of 7 months for those people to begin to understand it.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in part 2.
If you want to say something just say it. Nothing wrong with clarity.

Edit: Not sure how the first quote got there

 

[Corndog]

Uncharted is a new IP, it's not an historical IP (by historical, I mean there since the first console) unlike GT.
You see, you made my point, cause you had to bring a game (Uncharted) that was born from on the dust and ashes of another one (Jak&Daxter).

I think you need a mixture. Xbox does need some new or at least reimagined first party content. It is probably their biggest weakness.

 

[Kusarigama]

This tells me ps5 news is soon

This is why I dislike Xbox PR and Xbox folks. They replied on twitter "Welcome to next-gen" something like this when PlayStation did their The Road to PS5 video and now such cheap gotcha post. No standards. But really what could be expect when their execs themselves indulge with such toxic trolls.

 

[Gediminas]

You on the other hand exhibit pure class with posts like that.

oh, look, m$ and timdog's and co lapdog speaking about a class, how cute

 

[Shmunter]

Speaking of which, does anyone think some ML was added to the TAAU to give the UE5 demo SUCH A CLEAN IQ that even DF was problems pixel counting?

The more complex scenes get, the more difficult it is to count pixels. Pixel counts are the domain of a basic image where clean, obvious generated lines exist. Like counting pixels on real life footage is futile.

 

[Bogroll]

Did I put it in that field? And does it really matter how long they were there if the final result is now they're not?
If Microsoft drops out of the home console market, everyone loses. PlayStation fanatics, too.

Yes I'd say you did put it in that field with the line of "Won't be the first time they've thrown in the towel in on some market they've tried to break in to" i can't think of any other MS Sony given up on product. (ok maybe Betamax) to put in another field.

No it doesn't matter if the final result is they're not.- I'm just making the point they had a fair few years trying, not just a 3 year thing.

Totally agree with if they drop out point, I've been saying that for years.

 

[geordiemp]

You know, I'm not sure if the PS5 will load every PS4 game in under 1 second either.
I think people need to keep reasonable expectations for both consoles.

You have splash screens, messages, contacting servers, safety pages, all sorts of crap of course.

But we have had 2 demos from Ps5, Spiderman and UE5

We have had 2 demos from MS, State of decay and fast resume demos (5 or 6 games ?).

There is a gulf so far more than 2 x the bandwidth specs, add in latency and difference is massive (so far).

Balls in MS court.

 

[Great Hair]

At Xbox we financially support pirated content

Indie game Bright Memory looks worse after replacing stolen art

Creator replaced enemy models downloaded from pirate software sites

www.abacusnews.com

Controversial shooter Bright Memory is getting an overhaul

The Chinese indie game shot to fame before it was busted for stealing art assets

www.abacusnews.com

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Yes I'd say you did put it in that field with the line of "Won't be the first time they've thrown in the towel in on some market they've tried to break in to" i can't think of any other MS Sony given up on product. (ok maybe Betamax) to put in another field.

No it doesn't matter if the final result is they're not.- I'm just making the point they had a fair few years trying, not just a 3 year thing.

Totally agree with if they drop out point, I've been saying that for years.

Windows Mobile being the most recent. The comments about Google and Amazon being their focus rather than Sony suggests it's on the horizon depending on how well XSX does.
I'm up front in that I'm more excited about PS5 and will be getting that first, but I'd genuinely hate it if Xbox became xCloud and Windows PCs only a few years from now.
Any PlayStation fan wanting Xbox to crumble is an idiot. I'll be buying my XSX a little later on, hopefully with Flight Simulator confirmed as XSX Enhanced with it (how could it not be anyway).

 

[Audiophile]

I mean I personally hope Sony has similar features/compatibility level as MS (I have several games in my PS4 backlog I want to play boosted on PS5, zero in my Xbox backlog lol).. we just don't know as they haven't said as much.

Every game will get some sort of boost on XSX which is nice; that sentence is about locked framerates which you can't always change. Sony will have the same problem; but we have no clue what other features are coming with their boost mode/how many games will support it.

So proclaiming there will not be a dramatic difference is... quite the statement.

One issue I always take with Sony and this stuff is they tend to leave everything up to other/third parties and always seem to think that making everything totally optional is always a good thing. Sometimes you have to step on a few toes to ensure quality and maintain standards for your customers, this goes for accessories/peripherals (lack of official "elite" controllers) and game software.

They need to unify their approach for this stuff and should do everything in their power to make sure software is fully compatible, not leave it up to devs and say "this feature might or might not work". For eg. the boost functionality; I shouldn't have to turn features on or off at a system level every time I switch software because it benefits one thing and breaks another.

I think Sony would do well to set up a BC department that is focused on maintaining or enhancing all first and second party software going forward, at least from PS4 onwards. While also offering assistance for -- or even taking on some -- third party titles. Not just adding enhancements or simply getting software to run down the line, but building in good practice and functionality at the ground level on new software that will allow it to scale for future platforms whether next gen or just enhanced consoles.

There are some titles that are nigh on unplayable that would have benefited greatly from a pro patch, but didn't get it; and to me this isn't just about playing games itself, but it's about preservation and maintaining their legacy.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Is this tacit acknowledgment that they don't have next gen only exclusive?

Yes

 

[saintjules]

Jeff updated his itinerary. Looks like he updated the Playstation Event too (or that part of it is already known)

 

[Tiago07]

This tells me ps5 news is soon

Aaron Greenberg....

 

[IntentionalPun]

At Xbox we financially support pirated content

Indie game Bright Memory looks worse after replacing stolen art

Creator replaced enemy models downloaded from pirate software sites

www.abacusnews.com

Controversial shooter Bright Memory is getting an overhaul

The Chinese indie game shot to fame before it was busted for stealing art assets

www.abacusnews.com

Huh? How did MS financially support a game that came out like 2 years ago?

Bright Memory Infinite is also coming to PS5.... and it's the original game that had the pirated content issue, which the developer fixed.

 

[Kusarigama]

Great news, but Microsoft was always ahead of Sony when it came to backwards compatibility so this isn't really a surprise.

The one with the biggest library? Just guessing.

The BC on PS3 is still the biggest, it supports PS1, PS2 games. XSX(same as XB1) supports less than 1k games from 360 and OG xbox combined and all of XB1 games which would still be less than PS3 supporting PS1 and PS2 games and also native PS3 games so there you go.

PS.: I know only the earlier models of PS3 supported PS2 native bc but still.

 

[ZeroFool]

Inside Unreal: From Ants to Outer Space - May 28

WHAT We’re excited to have our Lead Evangelist Sjoerd de Jong on Inside Unreal this week! Following the presentation of our new Sky and Atmosphere features, Sjoerd will take a deeper dive into precisely how all of it was built. We’ll take a look at the massive scale of the planet, the...

forums.unrealengine.com

This looks pretty amazing and it is not even UE5.

 

[saintjules]

Two quick things:

1►It is not entirely clear to me that among the games that are going to be presented shortly are the exclusive Powerful ones. The best games may be reserved for August. It is not a confirmation.

Maybe based on your personal opinion; Do you think August is too late to 'sell' the Console to the masses? I mean, some of us in here are early adopters. So no matter what, we're jumping on it. But for the mainstream audience, do you think waiting until August to make all the points necessary by Holiday season is good? I mean, if that's what they're doing. Same goes for pre-orders. If we compare last gen, only the release date was one of the last things to know before the release. And that happened at Gamescom in August 2013.

 

[M1chl]

Considering a lot of XGS use Unreal Engine. Their next-gen wow-factor maybe dependent on UE5.

Although to be frank, Hellblade 2 was pretty good cinematics(that was on UE4.25), just looking forward to gameplay though.

Well Mandalorian is Unreal 4.x and I think is going to have to do with optimalisation for new HW, not sure if it has reworked animation pipeline or something like that. Was some new key features of the engine uncovered? I might missed it...

 

[Thirty7ven]

Sorry to int erupt the "Talk about Tweets" thread with next-gen info.. you may resume bitching about tweets.

I read it, I knew it, and I did ask you if BC worked differently before. Has Xbox BC worked on the basis of downclocking and boosting?

 

[TBiddy]

oh, look, m$ and timdog's and co lapdog speaking about a class, how cute

i like how you instantly prove my point, just like that.

 

[Yakuzakazuya]

Yes

If Sony shows just one first party game looking like UE5 demo with actual free roam gameplay then it is over for Xbox SX, IMO.

 

[ToadMan]

Isn't just it just like when those PS4 guys swapped games and took the piss out of Xbox.
And it is the truth, so people should just take it on the chin, after all TF don't matter, SSD, Ureal 5 Demo etc.
Try and look at it from the neutral point.

At the moment, from the "neutral" point the only thing that mattered is the UE5 demo.

Once Sony shows some games, then it'll be up to MS to do better - something they've got a poor track record of...

 

[IntentionalPun]

One issue I always take with Sony and this stuff is they tend to leave everything up to other/third parties and always seem to think that making everything totally optional is always a good thing. Sometimes you have to step on a few toes to ensure quality and maintain standards for your customers, this goes for accessories/peripherals (lack of official "elite" controllers) and game software.

They need to unify their approach for this stuff and should do everything in their power to make sure software is fully compatible, not leave it up to devs and say "this feature might or might not work". For eg. the boost functionality; I shouldn't have to turn features on or off at a system level every time I switch software because it benefits one thing and breaks another.

I think Sony would do well to set up a BC department that is focused on maintaining or enhancing all first and second party software going forward, at least from PS4 onwards. While also offering assistance for -- or even taking on some -- third party titles. Not just adding enhancements or simply getting software to run down the line, but building in good practice and functionality at the ground level on new software that will allow it to scale for future platforms whether next gen or just enhanced consoles.

There are some titles that are nigh on unplayable that would have benefited greatly from a pro patch, but didn't get it; and to me this isn't just about playing games itself, but it's about preservation and maintaining their legacy.

Well from what I understand MS took the approach from the start of designing the Xbox One OS to make these XSX BC features work how they do. A design choice that blocked lower level system access, but enabled BC and FC without 3rd party intervention. Since they can tweak things at the virtualization layer/SDK level they can "fix" issues caused by the faster hardware is my understanding. The tradeoff being.. well... slight perf hit from the virtualization.

Sony just didn't do it that way; and doesn't sound like they are going to do that this gen either. Which forced their hand to some extent chip design wise to get any sort of wide BC support at all, and makes boost-mode something that devs actually have to "fix" if there are issues.

Coin toss on which is better; depends on how much you care about BC.