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[ToadMan]

That's your view on it, but not the only way to look at it. Purely your interpretation. I see it as Microsoft just doing something for the gamers who don't want to upgrade yet because consoles are too expensive in the beginning or have teething problems. While at the same time try to keep people within their ecosystem. You can do good and help your business at the same time.

Well that seems like a naive position.

Let's imagine there's an MS which is fully focused on next gen and Xsex.

What would be their message today?

It would be that they're releasing a console in 5 months and they have some mulitplats and one AAA game that was developed for the previous console they're going to put out on the new one.

One 1st party game and Multiplats for 2 years. That would be immediate death for Xbox.

Since they want to try and sell some consoles and stay in the console market, they have to find something else - so they have to go cross gen while everyone patiently waits for the years it will take the 1st parties to get somewhere.

It's not a choice, it's a necessity. It's not even my viewpoint - there's nothing else they can or could have done short of pulling out of the console sector altogether.

 

[geordiemp]

I honestly think it depends on the game. Some games can scale well across a lot of hardware especially if we are just pushing pixels. If it has some cpu intensive mechanics then it maybe a poor candidate to run as cross gen.

The problem is not the GPU scaling, its not the pixels, its not the terraflopies, its not framerate, not even the SSD.

The issue is Zen 2 vs Jaguar, one is more than 10 x more powerful,. one is a beast, one is a toaster controller.

If games are made for Jaguar, then all zen 2 can do is do fast framerates and sit twiddling its thumbs. Maybe thats why Phil is pushing 120 FPS....

When you enter an area, and the 5 enemies spawn with limited animations and AI and do scripted predictable things, you can thank Jaguar. PC runs it faster, but its still a game designed for a toaster CPU.

That same game as Zen 2 designed games might have 10 or 15 enemies, all different not just reskins or a different colour, all different animations, smarter AI (or actually have intelligence), so many movements and actions

Jaguar needs to die already, current gen needs to stop, now.

Jaguar limits games with 10 % of what you could have and is a shackle around any games ambitions.

 

[Codexer]

PS5 startup concept based on new video

 

[M-V2]

Time for some art guys...

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I don't believe in sitting on the fence on this one. Making new games for old hardware is contrary to next gen, not much else to it.

Game developers have always made games for lower- and high-end hardware (PC). I'll agree if Sony shows us something that just isn't possible on current generation of consoles, but if that's not the case then it just didn't really matter and Microsoft did something nice for current gen console owners. And because a game is available cross-gen doesn't make that game not next-gen.

Well that seems like a naive position.

Let's imagine there's an MS which is fully focused on next gen and Xsex.

What would be their message today?

It would be that they're releasing a console in 5 months and they have some mulitplats and one AAA game that was developed for the previous console they're going to put out on the new one.

1 1st party game and Multiplats for 2 years. That would be immediate death for Xbox.

Since they want to try and sell some consoles and stay in the console market, they have to find something else - so they have to go cross gen while everyone patiently waits for the years it will take the 1st parties to get somewhere.

It's not a choice, it's a necessity. It's not even my viewpoint - there's nothing else they can or could have done short of pulling out of the console sector altogether.

1 first party game is only what we currently know of, let's wait for their July event before saying they will only have 1 game at launch from their first party studios. Pretty sure we'll see a Forza game too. So your whole argument is based on them not having enough games ready? I will agree if that is actually the case, but I would think we should wait on both systems launch line-ups. We also only know about Godfall for PS5, but I expect more of them at launch.

 

[martino]

The problem is not the GPU scaling, its not the pixels, its not the terraflopies, its not framerate, not even the SSD.

The issue is Zen 2 vs Jaguar, one is more than 10 x more powerful,. one is a beast, one is a toaster controller.

If games are made for Jaguar, then all zen 2 can do is do fast framerates and sit twiddling its thumbs. Maybe thats why Phil is pushing 120 FPS....

When you enter an area, and the 5 enemies spawn with limited animations and AI and do scripted predictable things, you can thank Jaguar. PC runs it faster, but its still a game designed for a toaster CPU.

That same game as Zen 2 designed games might have 10 or 15 enemies, all different not just reskins or a different colour, all different animations, smarter AI (or actually have intelligence), so many movements and actions

Jaguar needs to die already, current gen needs to stop, now.

Jaguar limits games with 10 % of what you could have and is a shackle around any games ambitions.

i hope you are heavily hyperbolic on some of your number

 

[geordiemp]

Game developers have always made games for lower- and high-end hardware (PC). I'll agree if Sony shows us something that just isn't possible on current generation of consoles, but if that's not the case then it just didn't really matter and Microsoft did something nice for current gen console owners. And because a game is available cross-gen doesn't make that game not next-gen.

Nope, game developers have always made games designed for the Jaguar toaster CPU and scaled them accordingly.

Games designed for Zen2 will not scale on any jaguar toaster. THE END.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Nope, game developers have always made games designed for the Jaguar toaster CPU and scaled them accordingly.

Games designed for Zen2 will not scale on any jaguar toaster. THE END.

Like I said before. Sony better shows something that wasn't possible on past gen consoles, because that's the basis of your whole view here. I have no problem with eating crow if there are exclusive games that will show the CPU and SSD at work.

 

[geordiemp]

i hope you are heavily hyperbolic on some of your number

I am being fair, conservative at 8 x minimum with Zen 2 at 3.2 Ghz, so at 3.6 Ghz minimum 9 x



Above is unity dev and also explains AVX is 0,5 IPC on Jaguar LOL, Jaguar is crap.

Then you have 16 threads vs 8, shall I go on ?

10 x bud for AVX, maybe 5 x for other stuff. ANY game that runs on Jaguar is last gen by design, and needs to pack its bags and go home.

Like I said before. Sony better shows something that wasn't possible on past gen consoles, because that's the basis of your whole view here. I have no problem with eating crow if there are exclusive games that will show the CPU and SSD at work.

An XSX developer has already said the biggest jump this gen is CPU. Google it, its a fact. Forget pixels, SSD, the big difference is CPU.

Yes it will be hard to compare when you fighting 20 different enemies, that Jag game would of had 3 similar looking ones. Its only a small indie dev, but they are correct

Scorn Developer Says CPUs Rather Than SSDs Are Next-Gen's Biggest Leap

Ljubomir Peklar, Game Director for the upcoming survival horror game Scorn, believes CPUs rather than SSDs are the biggest leap in next-gen.

wccftech.com

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Lets gooooo !!

We really miss the guy, what a wonderful character. Jim Ryan seems like a decent person but he's too stiff in comparison to previous legends.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Of course he believes in generations. He just spent a whole one eating Sony's dust. He knows what a generation is.


sorry! hyyppee!

Exactly.

I remember this cockwomble singing like a canary about Xboxs achievements during the early years of the 360 when Xbox was ontop of PS3 in terms of sales.
The sack has been mute this whole generation through.
Xbox would do well to get rid of this maggot.

 

[FeiRR]

I missed the start of the last generation by a number of years was this place the same back then.

I mean was the hype the same level as it is now.

It was very similar. First the always online drama, then rumours by insiders that Xbox One API wasn't ready. Then astroturfers and even Xbox employees came to the thread to spread FUD with the most memorable of them being Albert Penello "You know we invented DirectX" punchline. He was banned later for lying, along tens of astroturfer accounts (it was officially confirmed by a mod who was supervising the thread). Then the conference came, the famous game sharing blop and we saw Killzone Shadowfall. It was over. Launches are the best time to be on GAF, no doubt.

Those who think cross gen is OK obviously have never played MGS2.

I played it on a powerful PC I had back at the time. It performed like shit, never even hitting 30 FPS. It was about the time I started to realize that PC gaming is a mistake. Unfortunately, I'd invested many times the PS3 price in that hardware.

This is a really good point.

But if we listen the last Broken Silicon podcast, Tom says that the reason why they targeted 1440@30fps is because the footage video was to be shown on YouTube, so there was not point to go further.

That could be a possibility too.

Timestamped:

This is interesting because we know that the demo was originally intended to be shown live at GDC, which means playing it up close on demo stands. Therefore it seems their solution is very scalable and decisions like resolution/framerate target can be taken not before the design and asset production but somewhere in the middle, without affecting the workflow. If so, we're entering happy times.

Similar to the blue line on the PS4 but V-shaped.

I can definitely see something like that in the retail console.

I will go even further and state that the line won't always be blue. For example when you are downloading something and put it into sleep mode the line will change color to let you know that the download has been completed.

I've noticed they now put the blue boot bar in all State of Play videos so you might be up to something.

Remember this news from 2016? the sky was the limit for MS at the beginning of the generation. Wonder whats their goal for the Series X

Microsoft's Original Xbox One Goal Was to Sell 200 Million Consoles

Microsoft also reveals that video usage is just as popular as gaming right now on Xbox One.

www.gamespot.com

In a recent interview Spencer mentioned a '100 million' number so it seems their forecasts dropped by half. 25 million XSX sold worldwide (20 in the US) seems realistic.

Anyone want to play DICE on Wednesday.

Only in a bad company.

Jaguar needs to die already, current gen needs to stop, now.

Jaguar limits games with 10 % of what you could have and is a shackle around any games ambitions.

While I totally agree with you, I watch those TLOU2 clips and see the best character animation in the gaming industry ever. And then I try to imagine what those people can do next gen and mindexplodes.gif.

 

[SgtCaffran]

Game developers have always made games for lower- and high-end hardware (PC). I'll agree if Sony shows us something that just isn't possible on current generation of consoles, but if that's not the case then it just didn't really matter and Microsoft did something nice for current gen console owners. And because a game is available cross-gen doesn't make that game not next-gen.

If a game is cross-gen then by definition it's not next-gen. A game is called next-gen if it's made specifically for new hardware.

Games on PC generally follow the console generations because many games are cross-platform. Of course you can tweak settings to deal with different consoles and video cards but that still means the core gameplay should be playable on the lowest common denominator.

It's very easy to imagine games that are simply not possible on older PCs and the Xbox One and PS4. A scene such as the last bit of the UE5 demo where super fast flight is shown. Those will be truly next-gen mechanics (and we will see much much more than that).

Choosing to develop cross-gen simply means that you do not get the freedom in game design that this new generation will offer.

 

[Well_Of_Souls]

Train is getting full

Wonder if anyone can spot the Easter Egg lol

Long time lurker, occasional poster... Can I also request a ticket please, sir?

 

[martino]

I am being fair, conservative at 8 x minimum with Zen 2 at 3.2 Ghz, so at 3.6 Ghz minimum 9 x



Above is unity dev and also explains AVX is 0,5 IPC on Jaguar LOL, Jaguar is crap.

Then you ahve 16 threads vs 8, shall I go on ?

10 x bud.

classic from this thread. use badly interpreted twitter quote...
when reading the full story


so we will be ~ 5-6x with AVX advantages.
Far from 10x conservative....

 

[Sinthor]

Two young relatives passed away because they wanted to pass through a flood. If you stay home, you're safe, all the dams and canals have done a great job with the last gigantic cyclone (Mekunu) that moved all the way to the desert while still spinning! 3rd degree, the eye of the cyclone was ~110km wide and entered my city! The massive flood canals saved the city from drowning.

This one might be as much in terms of water, still not finished and it's still entering.

Spoiler: mekunu cyclone in 2018

The army did a great job restoring roads as fast as possible on some areas and providing food and supplies for rural villages

It turned the Empty Quarter desert into a sea!

Wow, that is rain like I've never seen! I fervently hope you and your remaining family can stay safe. Hell, EVERYONE in your area. I know a lot of people get into trouble trying to cross flooded areas. They don't realize how strong even a few inches of running water is. Very sad.

 

[megreotsugua]

Sorry if this was posted already.

It appears that Xbox fanboys were correct that there was a late addition to PS5 APU that was a last ditch effort from Sony and AMD.*



*to perfect the I/O and Kraken.

 

[geordiemp]

classic from this thread. use badly interpreted twitter quote...
when reading the full story

so we will be ~ 5-6x with AVX advantages.
Far from 10x conservative....

5 -6 x yes for some instructions without AVX.

Zen 1 IPC of 2, Jag IPC of 1 being kind, 2.25 x for Ghz (3.6/1,6)

Zen 1 is 2.25 x 2 = 4.5 x. Zen 2 has IPC over zen 1, so 5 x .is fair

AVX for SIMD etc Jaguar IPC is 0.5, so thats another 2 x multiplier.

2 x 5 = 10 x (for AVX type workloads)

You are not factoring in the Jag IPC for AVX

 

[Vaztu]

Microsoft's method is pro-consumer, but Sony's method is pro-gamer.

As a hardcore gamer, I certainly am excited for new gaming experiences.

Edit: I will have to add that MS being pro-consumer is the narrative pushed for nextgen, we did not hear any narrative like this in 2013

 

[Moses85]

Lol I get why you may not like it, it's very different from what we've seen before but I think it'll be a nice change from the usual black boxes Sony sticks with. Here are some renders based off the devkit and controllers. I think they look really cool!

The Concept looks so dam sexy!

 

[Gudji]

Sorry if this was posted already.

It appears that Xbox fanboys were correct that there was a late addition to PS5 APU that was a last ditch effort from Sony and AMD.*



*to perfect the I/O and Kraken.

Seems in line with what Cerny told during the presention, that back in 2017 he learned about kraken and decided to put hardware on the APU to support that.

Microsoft's method is pro-consumer, but Sony's method is pro-gamer.

As a hardcore gamer, I certainly am excited for new gaming experiences.

MS being "pro-consumer" is a bullshit narrative.

New consoles always had exclusives at launch, it was never a problem until now... I mean, it still isn't, it's just fanboys running wild with that because of console wars.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

An XSX developer has already said the biggest jump this gen is CPU. Google it, its a fact. Forget pixels, SSD, the big difference is CPU.

Yes it will be hard to compare when you fighting 20 different enemies, that Jag game would of had 3 similar looking ones. Its only a small indie dev, but they are correct

Scorn Developer Says CPUs Rather Than SSDs Are Next-Gen's Biggest Leap

Ljubomir Peklar, Game Director for the upcoming survival horror game Scorn, believes CPUs rather than SSDs are the biggest leap in next-gen.

wccftech.com

I never said that wasn't the case. I just think that developers are able to code around it. Like they've been doing for PC since forever... Shitty CPU's, top-notch CPU's.

If a game is cross-gen then by definition it's not next-gen. A game is called next-gen if it's made specifically for new hardware.

Games on PC generally follow the console generations because many games are cross-platform. Of course you can tweak settings to deal with different consoles and video cards but that still means the core gameplay should be playable on the lowest common denominator.

It's very easy to imagine games that are simply not possible on older PCs and the Xbox One and PS4. A scene such as the last bit of the UE5 demo where super fast flight is shown. Those will be truly next-gen mechanics (and we will see much much more than that).

Choosing to develop cross-gen simply means that you do not get the freedom in game design that this new generation will offer.

Says who? You are making up your own definitions, here is mine: "A game is called next-gen if it runs on new hardware".
You are also making the assumption that those games can't be dumbed down to run on older gen hardware. Developers could target the XSX and make everything work perfect on there, and then when they port it to Xbox One, they start removing stuff. That's basically the whole idea of Smart Delivery too.

 

[martino]

5 -6 x yes for some instructions

AVX for SIMD etc Jaguar IPC is 0.5, so thats another 2 x multiplier.

2 x 5 = 10 x (for AVX type workloads)., probably closer to 12 x for AVX..

it's a big jump but not as big as you understand it to be

 

[Vaztu]

Sorry if this was posted already.

It appears that Xbox fanboys were correct that there was a late addition to PS5 APU that was a last ditch effort from Sony and AMD.*



*to perfect the I/O and Kraken.

Seems in line with what Cerny told during the presention, that back in 2017 he learned about kraken and decided to put hardware on the APU to support that

Yup, Cerny mentions that they hustled to put it in.

MS being "pro-consumer" is a bullshit narrative

You are correct, this narrative wasn't there last gen.

 

[geordiemp]

it's a big jump but not as big as you understand it to be

500% to 1000 % for AVX, whats mis-understood ?

Not even considering the higher bandwidths feeding the CPU improved caches...and Zen 2 overall gains.

offloading stuff like decompress and other architectural improvements

Its a chasm, a huge gulf.

 

[Shio]

Train is getting full

Wonder if anyone can spot the Easter Egg lol

Marty and Doc at the far back?

 

[zaitsu]

500% to 1000 % for AVX, whats mis-understood ?

Maybe he prefer 100% jaguar in his games

 

[martino]

500% to 1000 % for AVX, whats mis-understood ?

you said zen2 is 10x jaguar. it's wrong.
you used gain on a specific instruction set to claim cpu overall gain.
whats mis-understood ?

 

[Nickolaidas]

This gen was short or something and I don't feel the need for new one yet.
Graphics are still amazing, image quality is perfect. Last gen we had fun of 720p or less no aa jagged mess image quality that you could not wait for PC version or new gen.
Now I am playing uc4 and it honestly looks perfect and some scenes even make it looks ray traced.
The only thing is that some games look a bit soft since I got used to 4k 60 on PC.
But fun good of war and it really weird abandoning this perfectly fine gen with games that don't lack anything and perfect iq. Next gen remasters will just be 4k huh?


But if graphics can get more amazing? Count me the f in hype train !!!

It's the no-loading-times narrative that has me determined to make this the first console generation where I will fucking pre-order.

 

[FranXico]

Yup, Cerny mentions that they hustled to put it in.






You are correct, this narrative wasn't there last gen.

Yes, originally, the decompressor was designed just for zlib. I wonder who actually convinced them to get into Kraken.

 

[FeiRR]

MS being "pro-consumer" is a bullshit narrative.

New consoles always had exclusives at launch, it was never a problem until now... I mean, it still isn't, it's just fanboys running wild with that because of console wars.

We're going to get a limited amount of PS5 only games this launch year, most likely less than 10 titles (2-3 exclusives). At the same time, there will still be tens if not hundreds of games released which run on both PS consoles. It's not like Sony is cutting PSN from PS4 or abandoning 100 million customers. PS+ will still feature PS4 games for at least a year, I think even longer. At the same time Sony is making sure that early adopters can run every new game on PS5 even if it is aimed at PS4. So you can have both for, say, $500 or just one for $250, your choice. I don't see anything anti-consumer in that policy. It's a fair producer-consumer deal.

 

[FranXico]

It's the no-loading-times narrative that has me determined to make this the first console generation where I will fucking pre-order.

It's time for Sony to walk the walk. They have to make a convincing demonstration on the 4th of June.

 

[Well_Of_Souls]

It's the no-loading-times narrative that has me determined to make this the first console generation where I will fucking pre-order.

Pre-ordering is probably advisable, if the rumours of lower launch stocks are correct.

 

[geordiemp]

you said zen2 is 10x jaguar. it's wrong.
you used gain on a specific instruction set to claim cpu overall gain.
whats mis-understood ?

5 to 10 x just on IPC and Ghz.......Thats all was used...

we are not even factoring bandwidth, cache, offloading to dedicated silicon allot of tasks on both new consoles, games designed for zen 2 (by a dev team with the resource naturally ) will only be a dream on any current gen console.

 

[FranXico]

We're going to get a limited amount of PS5 only games this launch year, most likely less than 10 titles (2-3 exclusives). At the same time, there will still be tens if not hundreds of games released which run on both PS consoles. It's not like Sony is cutting PSN from PS4 or abandoning 100 million customers. PS+ will still feature PS4 games for at least a year, I think even longer. At the same time Sony is making sure that early adopters can run every new game on PS5 even if it is aimed at PS4. So you can have both for, say, $500 or just one for $250, your choice. I don't see anything anti-consumer in that policy. It's a fair producer-consumer deal.

We all know that the only reason MS isn't publishing next-gen only games yet is that they are simply not ready yet. Nothing wrong with that, and very little they can do about it. The whole "cross-gen is pro-consumer" story is just a PR line to compensate for it. It still surprises me how their fans just fall for everything.

 

[Gediminas]

Microsoft's method is pro-consumer, but Sony's method is pro-gamer.

As a hardcore gamer, I certainly am excited for new gaming experiences.

what sony is doing is pro consumer and also pro gamer. first of all, games coming to PS4 regardless of PS5, and PS5 games coming to PS5 regardless of PS4. Sony has quality and quantity offer both. they don't need first party create games on PS5 that would support PS4 because 3rd party is doing that for them. xbox does not have that luxury so they spin that as negative while it was for ages(it is just a lie and hypocrisy from them), new hardware, new games. i know, no one going to call them out on this, because almost all US press in their pocket. but people should know better, especially the consumers.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

If a game is cross-gen then by definition it's not next-gen. A game is called next-gen if it's made specifically for new hardware.

Games on PC generally follow the console generations because many games are cross-platform. Of course you can tweak settings to deal with different consoles and video cards but that still means the core gameplay should be playable on the lowest common denominator.

It's very easy to imagine games that are simply not possible on older PCs and the Xbox One and PS4. A scene such as the last bit of the UE5 demo where super fast flight is shown. Those will be truly next-gen mechanics (and we will see much much more than that).

Choosing to develop cross-gen simply means that you do not get the freedom in game design that this new generation will offer.

Agree. I've got a pretty simple explanation about the bad side of cross gen games.
It is known that Horizon was supposed to have flying mounts but due to hardware limitations it couldn't be implemented. So with this in mind, we can talk about 2 theorical cases about how a developer could handle a cross gen development:

Case 1: You implement the game mechanics the new hardware allows you to have that couldn't been done before, and for the old gen version of the game you just take out those mechanics the hardware can't handle and maybe even cut content related to those mechanics to make it run properly (including the obvious graphical downgrade).

Case 2: You discard those new mechanics, because you want both versions to be pretty much identical. Obviously the newest machine will have higher resolutions, framerates, better lightning, particle effects, etc. But you're compromising your original vision because you want everyone to experience the game in the same way.

To me, these theorical cases are unfair for both platforms. The so mentioned "scalability" doesn't have anything to do with this, when we talk about something like the flying mounts in Horizon either the hardware can or can't do it, period.

 

[martino]

5 to 10 x just on IPC and Ghz.......Thats all was used...

we are not even factoring bandwidth, cache, offloading to dedicated silicon allot of tasks on both new consoles, games designed for zen 2 will only be a dream on any current gen console.

so now we're moving on global performance. considering all the hardware ok....
now let's talk about that 10% , not hyperbolic too i guess

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Wow, that is rain like I've never seen! I fervently hope you and your remaining family can stay safe. Hell, EVERYONE in your area. I know a lot of people get into trouble trying to cross flooded areas. They don't realize how strong even a few inches of running water is. Very sad.

Yup, actually it was massive and lasted for like 3-4 days. But most of the deaths happened after the cyclone of people trying to force themselves through floods needlessly. Around 9-11 people died total, which was extremely low in terms of the rain. My city, Salalah, was the number one in rain millimeter in the world for 2 days, and the second is another village few kilometers away. The fifth was also near my city. Having 3 neighboring cities/villages in the top rain fall measurements for 1-2 days tells a lot. Most weather analyses thought it would turn into a crisis, which was far from it, thank God, due to most houses aren't in the way of main, traditionally know flood routes. And another dam and canals project helped a lot aiding those floods to the sea.

Well, there is a happy ending: The same brownish areas turn into green later during the monsoon season between late June and late September (annually though).

Spoiler: photo of a road through green forests

 

[FeiRR]

Agree. I've got a pretty simple explanation about the bad side of cross gen games.
It is known that Horizon was supposed to have flying mounts but due to hardware limitations it couldn't be implemented. So with this in mind, we can talk about 2 theorical cases about how a developer could handle a cross gen development:

Case 1: You implement the game mechanics the new hardware allows you to have that couldn't been done before, and for the old gen version of the game you just take out those mechanics the hardware can't handle and maybe even cut content related to those mechanics to make it run properly (including the obvious graphical downgrade).

Case 2: You discard those new mechanics, because you want both versions to be pretty much identical. Obviously the newest machine will have higher resolutions, framerates, better lightning, particle effects, etc. But you're compromising your original vision because you want everyone to experience the game in the same way.

To me, this theorical cases are unfair for both platforms. The so mentioned "scalability" doesn't have anything to do with this, when we talk about something like the flying mounts in Horizon either the hardware can or can't do it, period.

From the dev studio perspective, case 2 always wins. If you go with case 1, you divide your fanbase, which is very bad for PR. You need to spend a lot more money on development, which is bad for your budget and deadlines. People who quote those rare examples of games being ported for previous generation (like Tomb Raider) don't take into consideration that those ports are almost always done by different developers. There's the whole industry branch of studios that specialize in ports. While their job is important, imagine a top-tier dev studio handing over their assets to an external company to degrade their artistic vision they've been working on for years. This must be very heart-breaking to those people. Cherno (that game ex-EA developer who analysed UE5 reveal and Cerny's talk) spoke about it in his video quite extensively.

 

[geordiemp]

so now we're moving on global performance. considering all the hardware ok....
now let's talk about that 10% , not hyperbolic too i guess

We dont know global performance of the massively improved cache, bandwidth, task offloading yet do we. We will soon get an idea.

Why you are defending the Jaguar CPU I do not know, maybe MS is not ready with software or API for next gen, or maybe its because all first party games need to go on gamepass so must champion framerates.

Anyway, here is a good summary of the Jaguar 8 cores

 

[martino]

Why you are defending the Jaguar CPU I do not know, maybe MS is not ready with software or API for next gen, or maybe its because all first party games need to go on gamepass so must champion framerates.

Anyway, here is a good summary of the Jaguar 8 cores

I'm calling your hyperbole not defending jaguar cpu....
is it possible to keep emotions in check and think a little about tech speculation we write in a speculation thread ?
who is inflating speculated gains here because of considerations that are not technical ?

 

[Vaztu]

Case 1: You implement the game mechanics the new hardware allows you to have that couldn't been done before, and for the old gen version of the game you just take out those mechanics the hardware can't handle and maybe even cut content related to those mechanics to make it run properly (including the obvious graphical downgrade)

In this case, do publishers/devs have to account for legal issues ?

They would market the game in new hardware, but when gamers see half the enemies (or even by your example, not able to fly), simply cause its old hardware, this will surely bring lawsuits.

And I am sure devs will want both hardwares to have similar gaming experiences.

So, Case 2 is much more likely.

 

[geordiemp]

I'm calling your hyperbole not defending jaguar cpu....
is it possible to keep emotions in check and think a little about tech speculation we write in a speculation thread ?

Its speculation yes, I called minimum 5 x (just with Ghz and IPC) or 10 x with AVX PLUS 2.5 x higher bandwidth, bigger caches as roughly 10 x performant to make a point, the point being Jaguar is CRAP.

Maybe the performance averages out 7 or 8 x , are you happy at my Hyberbole ? We dont know the delta yet do we.

Also as more engines make use of more threads, the 16 comes into play, interesting times.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

From the dev studio perspective, case 2 always wins. If you go with case 1, you divide your fanbase, which is very bad for PR. You need to spend a lot more money on development, which is bad for your budget and deadlines. People who quote those rare examples of games being ported for previous generation (like Tomb Raider) don't take into consideration that those ports are almost always done by different developers. There's the whole industry branch of studios that specialize in ports. While their job is important, imagine a top-tier dev studio handing over their assets to an external company to degrade their artistic vision they've been working on for years. This must be very heart-breaking to those people. Cherno (that game ex-EA developer who analysed UE5 reveal and Cerny's talk) spoke about it in his video quite extensively.

Yup, that's why it is unfair to me. You either divide your fanbase or limit your scope and ambition just because you are bound to release the game in less capable hardware.
There's the case where the devs out right said "Fuck it, I won't compromise my vision" like Bloober Team with The Medium, they said and I quote: "The gameplay mechanics we're creating for The Medium can be fully realized only on a next-gen hardware. The game simply couldn't work the same way on current-gen platforms."

 

[pawel86ck]

you said zen2 is 10x jaguar. it's wrong.
you used gain on a specific instruction set to claim cpu overall gain.
whats mis-understood ?

Agree. Even MS say new CPU is 4x more powerful compared to jaguar CPU, not 10x. Maybe DF will try to estimate CPU improvements ryzen vs jagurar in one of their future videos.

 

[BurnCoalMeltPole]

Like I said before. Sony better shows something that wasn't possible on past gen consoles, because that's the basis of your whole view here. I have no problem with eating crow if there are exclusive games that will show the CPU and SSD at work.

Sony pushed all projects started since 2017 to the PS5, so they should have two or more titles ready to go out of the gate. Developer requests shaped the PS5's features, so you can bet that they will be used. Many of these studios no longer want to have to develop content in the old way because it is both tedious and costly. These studios really want to push the interactive medium forward, and now they are set up to do just that.

Microsoft's console philosophy is quite different, and I think it is more tailored to their market position rather than what benefits consumers in general. If they think they can get away with pushing AA throwaway 'dollar-store' content and micro transactions, they will do it. I remember them basically abandoning their core users in favor of madly pursuing a fad for casuals. And just a few years ago, Spencer was dismissIng the very idea of a console generation, viewing these convenient living room machines as just another form of PC to be upgraded regularly to use their services. I think the very idea of Lockhart largely undermines their marketing of XSX. Imagine if Sony had done that with the PS4 Pro. Those gamers who bought one would have probably expected it to do far more than it does. Instead, it is just a premium console that can add a few minor features (HDR, higher resolution, sometimes a more stable frame rate), completely worth it for some, but not the vast majority of users who would see little value from the additional cost. Sure, some games will scale, but that can come with tradeoffs, and it can lower the quality of the experience. What would have happened to Infamous: Second Son, Killzone SF, Uncharted 4, God of War, TLOU2, Spiderman, GT Sport, etc if those titles were designed to also support the PS3? Sometimes the past needs to be abandoned so that the future may flourish.

Anyway, I really hope Microsoft has some amazing things to show, and ultimately delivers on their promises, but their rotten track record makes me very wary.

 

[Metroiddarks]

This gen was short or something and I don't feel the need for new one yet.
Graphics are still amazing, image quality is perfect. Last gen we had fun of 720p or less no aa jagged mess image quality that you could not wait for PC version or new gen.
Now I am playing uc4 and it honestly looks perfect and some scenes even make it looks ray traced.
The only thing is that some games look a bit soft since I got used to 4k 60 on PC.
But fun good of war and it really weird abandoning this perfectly fine gen with games that don't lack anything and perfect iq. Next gen remasters will just be 4k huh?


But if graphics can get more amazing? Count me the f in hype train !!!

This gen will have almost 7 years that make one of the longest generations if you don't feel necesite is because you don't make
games which should run in jaguar CPU and and slows HDD.

The graphics will be more than the same quality just to 4k and 60 fps with this new hardware the studios can make games more ambitious not
only in graphics department also its job will be easier while they improve or implement changes in the games and the way to make it:

-More enemies
-Better AI
-Better physics
-Mechanics not limit for the bandwidth
-Not time wasted in trick for improve loading

I don't say we don't have games now which looks gorgeous like:

-God of War
-RDR 2
-Gears 5
-Metro Exodus
-Control

The things is make each game of this require a huge amount of work which a big part came from optimize to hardware which is now obsolete like the CPU and HDD.

Even the GPUs of the consoles doesn't has many of the new features a modern should has,of course in 5 years you will start to hear the same but this how the human
is, we always try to reach what we thought was not possible before.

 

[kuncol02]

New consoles always had exclusives at launch, it was never a problem until now

And almost always they are shit, like Lair which killed Factor5 or Killzone Shadow Fall which probably killed whole Killzone universe. Ryse, Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero were amazing too, right? Even first Resistance looks more like previous generation title running in HD.
What to choose? Shitty game made with heavy time constraints or upgraded version of crossgen title?