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[Panajev2001a]

I don't think the difference will be stark. Both of the consoles will hit about the same mark (TF wise), have about the same CPU-power and about the same amount of memory.

I have no insidur info on this, but I remain confident that, being both feet in the semi-custom space for the second time with the same partners (ever since the X and the Pro , but also the original PS4, we have seen AMD premiering new features in consoles and I seemingly using consoles as next technology testbed), we are going to see some curious non simple off the shelves PC like choices.

If the development of PS4 and Xbox One went well for AMD (they surely got a lot of experience with ESRAM on one side and the GDDR5 solution on the other) and their partners, I see them starting to share RDNA earliest details when they were still working on finishing up X and Pro GPU's.
This would mean that the time to do combined R&D for the new semi-custom parts (and thus the amount of custom work in there) for XSX and PS5 is quite a bit longer than the time AMD spent with MS and Sony last gen (they needed to win the Sony contract first and PS4 was starting from a much more precarious position... sure, they know they have a very strong opponent now too, so I do not see them lowering their guard much).

 

[Pug]

I have no insidur info on this, but I remain confident that, being both feet in the semi-custom space for the second time with the same partners (ever since the X and the Pro , but also the original PS4, we have seen AMD premiering new features in consoles and I seemingly using consoles as next technology testbed).

If the development of PS4 and Xbox One went well for AMD (they surely got a lot of experience with ESRAM on one side and the GDDR5 solution on the other) and their partners, I see them starting to share RDNA earliest details when they were still working on finishing up X and Pro GPU's.
This would mean that the time to do combined R&D for the new semi-custom parts (and thus the amount of custom work in there) for XSX and PS5 is quite a bit longer than the time AMD spent with MS and Sony last gen (they needed to win the Sony contract first and PS4 was starting from a much more precarious position... sure, they know they have a very strong opponent now too, so I do not see them lowering their guard much).

Looking at things logically, we have both companies using the same GPU and CPU. Yeah I suspect there will be marginal differenced in terms of specific engineering solutions for both consoles, but essentially both machines will be the same. the difference will be in the memory setup and the cooling solutions and even these I suspect will be marginal.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Looking at things logically, we have both companies using the same GPU and CPU. Yeah I suspect there will be marginal differenced in terms of specific engineering solutions for both consoles, but essentially both machines will be the same. the difference will be in the memory setup and the cooling solutions and even these I suspect will be marginal.

Memory setup could be a big source of changes, look at the original Xbox One vs PS4, not to talk about the other side of the memory hierarchy... the SSD and the I/O interface (not to talk about the SW side of things which is where the great disruption can occur vs desktop PC's).

I am curious about potential GPU configuration differences though (maybe very different RT implementation maybe? Few unique shader core features on each side?), not just clock speed (which could encourage different algorithms if extreme enough, even if it reached the same number of TFLOPS). Possibly the CPU side will be very similar yes.

Then again, we are talking about semi-custom, not everything will change, not everything is wildly customised, but I think we are underestimating the impact of these customisations: especially related to the memory hierarchy and layout where even small changes can have massive differences.

 

[Imtjnotu]

So far, everything indicates that they will just use the same kind of cooling as the PS4 Pro had.
Do you know for a fact that they developed a new solution?

There was a patent in posted some 200 pages ago.

 

[TeamGhobad]

If these specs are real and the retail console matches it (GPU only):



Only at 64CUs it'd be 12.08TFs. That is very unlikely imo.

clocks will be higher for sure. 1.8 minimum with the kind of cooling we saw wiith the box.

 

[Von Hugh]

Ps: im a true insider

As an insider, I like to make people not suffering that much for the waiting so I decided to drop bomba already.

From an insider perspective

As an insider I greatly respect ethics

The evidence is undeniable, he must be an insider since he says so himself.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

There was a patent in posted some 200 pages ago.

Looking at this and I'm thinking that bottom heatsink could be for stacked RAM (5a, 5c and 5d) and then 9 is the APU/SoC where another HSF is placed?

 

[Imtjnotu]

Looking at this and I'm thinking that bottom heatsink could be for stacked RAM (5a, 5c and 5d) and then 9 is the APU/SoC where another HSF is placed?

For months I've tried figuring it out. No clue as to what I found last time. I go back and look. Goku and I talked about it

 

[TeamGhobad]

so if this guy is legit then everything he says is legit then ps5 more powerful confirmed. but if MS offers 12 tflops of RDNA 2.0 im perfectly ok with that.
I wonder if its because PS5 upclocked to hell or if they choose a higher end GPU. if they upclocked to hell maybe MS could do the same with their box. if they picked a beefier GPU its another fuck up on MS' part.

 

[Agnostic2020]

so if this guy is legit then everything he says is legit then ps5 more powerful confirmed. but if MS offers 12 tflops of RDNA 2.0 im perfectly ok with that.
I wonder if its because PS5 upclocked to hell or if they choose a higher end GPU. if they upclocked to hell maybe MS could do the same with their box. if they picked a beefier GPU its another fuck up on MS' part.

Klee is definitely legit but his information is from a 3rd party dev which might change however we are few months away from mass production of these units . So realistically nothing will change from now till start of production.
I do wonder why Sony has not said a word about their ram set up.

 

[DJ12]

Yea last time it was feb 20 and announcement for meeting came out 28 Jan . So if the meetings is a week ahead this time so will the announcement of the event. So we will hear the ps meeting announcement from Sony in mid Jan

Ah I get you the announcement of the announcement

 

[TeamGhobad]

Klee is definitely legit but his information is from a 3rd party dev which might change however we are few months away from mass production of these units . So realistically nothing will change from now till start of production.
I do wonder why Sony has not said a word about their ram set up.

probably because they are also using GDDR6 memory so there really isn't anything to say. i think they are gonna be completely quiet until E3. and try to win it with ps5 full design and spec reveal and all their games.

 

[megreotsugua]

Definitely a good candidate due the higher densities at a lower cost compared to Toggle MRAM.

Does STT-MRAM make sense for a console though economically and utility-wise?

How about ReRAM to augment RAM capacity? Does that make sense for a console in 2020? Or is it too expensive that doesn't give much benefit?

 

[TeamGhobad]

this is not real?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):
Xbox die size: 392mm
PS5 die size: 319mm

Clock speed in current devkits:
Xbox (Dante): 1,1 GHz (not final; Goal is 1,6)
PS5 (Gonzalo): 1,8 GHz (was 1 GHz; now pretty much final version)

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

how the hell could MS be this big but at the same time less powerful?

 

[Agnostic2020]

probably because they are also using GDDR6 memory so there really isn't anything to say. i think they are gonna be completely quiet until E3. and try to win it with ps5 full design and spec reveal and all their games.

The thing is Sony revealed some info about ps5 first in the wired article at the start of 2019. So gddr 6 would have been news at that time . That said I still expect it to be gddr6 and not HBM due to cost.

as for revealing Sony probably will reveal the specs at ps meeting in feb just like the did with ps4. They reveal detailed specs first then MS followed in at the end of April or may with their event.(don't remember the exact date )

time will tell

 

[Agnostic2020]

this is not real?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):
Xbox die size: 392mm
PS5 die size: 319mm

Clock speed in current devkits:
Xbox (Dante): 1,1 GHz (not final; Goal is 1,6)
PS5 (Gonzalo): 1,8 GHz (was 1 GHz; now pretty much final version)

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

how the hell could MS be this big but at the same time less powerful?

No this from the a member in the other site called dukeblues or something . He admitted he wrote that after seeing the video of Scarlett at last year e3 . Don't trust any pastebin as the other site loves it and all of the keep making fake ones

 

[Psyrgery ES]

this is not real?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):
Xbox die size: 392mm
PS5 die size: 319mm

Clock speed in current devkits:
Xbox (Dante): 1,1 GHz (not final; Goal is 1,6)
PS5 (Gonzalo): 1,8 GHz (was 1 GHz; now pretty much final version)

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

how the hell could MS be this big but at the same time less powerful?

Xbox One was bigger than Ps4...

 

[TeamGhobad]

Xbox One was bigger than Ps4...

ya 1/3 of it was 32megabyes of esram........

 

[xool]

The XSX is 432 cubic inches³
The 1X is 263 cubic inches.

Theres a reason why the XSX has more space.
My guess is 48 - 52cus @ 1600-1700mhz.

We have to remember the SoC also has a 8core Zen2 which will be putting out some heat too.
Even an SOC with a 8 core zen2 + a 5700xt would need a rather serious cooling system

If designed like this with a huge heatsink and fan, 52,56cus @ 1600-1800mhs is possible.
Makes you wonder why this design has not be done before.

Experience shows that they usually put the PSU just before the fan, and it's actaully cooled with the warm air coming off the APU heatsink.

The motherboard could also go sideways (right side, or bottom when standing flat..)

I'm still expecting a liquid cooled solution though.

 

[DJ12]

how the hell could MS be this big but at the same time less powerful?

Esram or maybe as hinted at by the heatsink patent Sony are 3d stacking the Apu.

 

[CameFromNearFuture]

Lmao

 

[-kb-]

ya 1/3 of it was 32megabyes of esram........

It was closer to 20% but yeah the eSRAM was huge.

 

[TeamGhobad]

It was closer to 20% but yeah the eSRAM was huge.

to this day i still haven't gotten an answer if the 32megs actually contributed anything to the system in any substantial way to warrant that much space.

 

[xool]

can this guy be trusted?

its crazy to think 12 tflops of rdna right?

It's K, Lee (Kelly Rickards) of former Gamefan magazine, later EGM I think (used to post here https://www.neogaf.com/members/kleegamefan.2272/ )

Black guy bottom right http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...Joe-Redifer-you-made-EGM&viewfull=1#post78374

Would you trust this man ?

 

[TeamGhobad]

It's K, Lee (Kelly Rickards) of former Gamefan magazine, later EGM I think (used to post here https://www.neogaf.com/members/kleegamefan.2272/ )

Black guy bottom right http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...Joe-Redifer-you-made-EGM&viewfull=1#post78374

Would you trust this man ?

is that shu? top right?

 

[-kb-]

to this day i still haven't gotten an answer if the 32megs actually contributed anything to the system in any substantial way to warrant that much space.

It allowed Microsoft to not take the bet on high density GDDR5 being available and therefore they could guarantee 8GB of DDR3. Sony won a gamble but they also could have a lost and ended up having only 4GB of GDDR5.

 

[CameFromNearFuture]

Prospero and Anaconda GPUs are basically the same. Sony's cooling solution for PS5 will make the biggest difference here.

Funnily enough, thats what I heard too.

People really think that the weird and totally unusual devkit design for PS5 is for nothing. lol

Obviously not.

 

[xool]

is that shu? top right?

[Dunno/No] I think Shu would have been 34 when that photo was taken (1998?) - the guy looks a lot younger to me

[edit[ Is it a young Dan Hsu ?

Dan Hsu (Person) - Giant Bomb

Currently Senior Director/Editor-in-Chief at Blizzard Entertainment. Former Editorial Director of the 1UP Network. Famous for heading up initiatives calling for accountability and integrity on the part of the enthusiast press. Also former President & Co-Founder of Bitmob, Editor-in-Chief of...

www.giantbomb.com

 

[TeamGhobad]

[Dunno] I think Shu would have been 34 when that photo was taken (1998?) - the guy looks a lot younger to me

asians age at a different rate.

 

[-kb-]

Funnily enough, thats what I heard too.

People really think that the weird and totally unusual devkit design for PS5 is for nothing. lol

Obviously not.

Its totally so devs can save like a totally minimal amount of space on a desk by stacking them for some strange reason and not to actually cool the damn thing.

 

[Tommy Fisher]

So why ,based on rumors, the raytracing solution is different if the gpu are the same ?

Both Sony and MS approached differently with their tech for RT in the SoC. Also GigaRays spread better with higher speed! )

 

[Aceofspades]

this is not real?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):
Xbox die size: 392mm
PS5 die size: 319mm

Clock speed in current devkits:
Xbox (Dante): 1,1 GHz (not final; Goal is 1,6)
PS5 (Gonzalo): 1,8 GHz (was 1 GHz; now pretty much final version)

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

how the hell could MS be this big but at the same time less powerful?

Three scenarios:

1. This leak is fake.
2. Sony using HBM reducing silicon area and improving thermals for higher clocks.
3. PS5/XBSX sharing same arch. But Sony opted to utilize die area for CUs while MS for Something else.

And btw, Xbox one had bigger silicon but was 40% weaker.

MS copied PS4 design in their 1X .

 

[TeamGhobad]

Both Sony and MS approached differently with their tech for RT in the SoC. Also GigaRays spread better with higher speed! )

i dont see how MS can't upclock their gpu more...

Three scenarios:

1. This leak is fake.
2. Sony using HBM reducing silicon area and improving thermals for higher clocks.
3. PS5/XBSX sharing same arch. But Sony opted to utilize die area for CUs while MS for Something else.

And btw, Xbox one had bigger silicon but was 40% weaker.

MS copied PS4 design in their 1X .

there were rumors that phil was forced to put FP64 on the silicon.

 

[-kb-]

i dont see how MS can't upclock their gpu more...



there were rumors that phil was forced to put FP64 on the silicon.

Both the XBSEX and PS5 are already producing large amounts of heat already. You can't just keep upping clocks forever, they have to meet the thermal design of the console as well or else it will overheat. Additionally the higher the clocks the worse your yields are making the console more expensive to produce.

Putting FP64 onto the silicon would be such a waste it would make no sense to do that.

 

[Tommy Fisher]

Does STT-MRAM make sense for a console though economically and utility-wise?

How about ReRAM to augment RAM capacity? Does that make sense for a console in 2020? Or is it too expensive that doesn't give much benefit?

For mass production? maybe
ReRam is toooooo expensive at the moment, maybe for mid-gen refresh (PS5 Pro)

 

[Bani]

The thing is: they never said "our new XBOX has 12TF". They said it has twice the GPU power of the XBox One X. That's about it.

This is thru

 

[Tommy Fisher]

This is thru

Their New XBOX is exactly a little over 12TFlops RDNA 2.0!

 

[megreotsugua]

For mass production? maybe
ReRam is toooooo expensive at the moment, maybe for mid-gen refresh (PS5 Pro)

Hmm. That settles it then. Those speeds were DRAM-like and I thought it fits with the low-cost but higher density you were saying for stt-mram.

It doesn't make sense for PS5 Pro either if the base console won't have it. It won't be used as a virtual ram because of a lowest common denominator. I'm hoping for it in the PS6 then.

 

[xool]

ReRAM doesn't even exist right now, unless 5MB chips are big enough. Maybe next gen..

..remember how long it took for 3dXpoint/Optane to go from official announcement to consumer products. So far Sony is at the research seminar .ppt level for ReRAM

 

[Deto]

Putting FP64 onto the silicon would be such a waste it would make no sense to do that.

for azure

 

[Mass Shift]

Prospero and Anaconda GPUs are basically the same. Sony's cooling solution for PS5 will make the biggest difference here.

At 2.1GHz? It better.

 

[Aceofspades]

i dont see how MS can't upclock their gpu more...



there were rumors that phil was forced to put FP64 on the silicon.

Massive oversight if true.

 

[TeamGhobad]

Massive oversight if true.

the new xbox had to double as a serverblade..

this pretty much confirms it.

 

[megreotsugua]

ReRAM doesn't even exist right now, unless 5MB chips are big enough. Maybe next gen..

..remember how long it took for 3dXpoint/Optane to go from official announcement to consumer products. So far Sony is at the research seminar .ppt level for ReRAM

A Sony engineer saying they will commercialize their ReRAM (128GB-256GB not MB) in 2020 to offer an alternative to Optane opened the possibility. Optane is $1.2/gb right now for their SSD variant (not the DIMM), that is with retail mark-up and Intel profit. If they plan to go after the Intel Optane market then it should be at least competitive in pricing.

I also doubt it though but for a different reason. The Sony engineer might have been grandstanding when he said 2020 and not actually serious.

 

[ManaByte]

It's K, Lee (Kelly Rickards) of former Gamefan magazine, later EGM I think (used to post here https://www.neogaf.com/members/kleegamefan.2272/ )

Black guy bottom right http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...Joe-Redifer-you-made-EGM&viewfull=1#post78374

Would you trust this man ?

He's also always been a big Sony Warrior.

 

[ArabianPrynce]

He's also always been a big Sony Warrior.

His source is working on ps5 exclusive I think

 

[Agnostic2020]

His source is working on ps5 exclusive I think

No he has clarified multiplat game by a 3rd party and that how he knows the ms target specs.however the company is using ps5 as lead platform

 

[megreotsugua]

ReRAM doesn't even exist right now, unless 5MB chips are big enough. Maybe next gen..

..remember how long it took for 3dXpoint/Optane to go from official announcement to consumer products. So far Sony is at the research seminar .ppt level for ReRAM

Or maybe Sony is serious about commercializing their 128gb ReRAM in 2020 but a ReRAM storage doesn't actually make sense in a console.

They're not at the research seminar .ptt level I don't think. They've been talking about ReRAM since 2014 when they planned for its release together with Micron. But then it was only at 16gb as opposed to Intel's Optane which was already at 128gb then. Micron abandoned Sony and went with Intel. Right now though, Optane is stuck at 128gb while Sony now has their 128gb variant with a lot promise to scale further.

Sony have increased its capacity throughout the years achieving more than 100gb. You can look at linkedin and find Sony engineers who in their bio show their involvement in ReRAM development up to its "mass production phase". We can't say that everything is going according to plan though and it's possible that Sony might be having problems with mass production. But they're definitely not in "research seminar .ppt level", they're at least trying to bring it to market. And if everything goes according to plan, it'll be release in 2020 as per the Sony engineer.

 

[xool]

A Sony engineer saying they will commercialize their ReRAM (128GB-256GB not MB) in 2020 to offer an alternative to Optane opened the possibility. Optane is $1.2/gb right now for their SSD variant (not the DIMM), that is with retail mark-up and Intel profit. If they plan to go after the Intel Optane market then it should be at least competitive in pricing.

I also doubt it though but for a different reason. The Sony engineer might have been grandstanding when he said 2020 and not actually serious.

Just grandstanding.

afaik he didn't say 128GB in 2020 anywhere

slides

video (unless you take the grandstading at 7:45 seriously - and he talked about IoT - which probably means small amounts, like the 8MB chips Fujitsu offers )

Just trash level reporting based on fantasy from Resetera ..

A reliable source like Nikkei https://tech.nikkeibp.co.jp/dm/atclen/news_en/15mk/092703022/ gives no date and says : "If an ReRAM for SCMs is commercialized, it will be a product in a new category for the Sony group, meaning a new business." ("if")

...and tellingly there's no announcement or product listing on Sony Semiconductor Solutions website.

 

[eastwood333]

I dunno. I think people are underestimating Phil's own words from just 3 days or so ago: "Our goal has always been to build the most powerful console we can, and i think we're there. We like leading in power and performance and i feel like we're going to be there again".

The fact that Xbox Xeries X needs a PC-like tower design to cool,i can't imagine PS5 being more powerful with out being even bigger and costing more.

This is not another Xbox One scenario where power was never the main goal.

He seems very confident they will have the most powerful console. This would fall in line with having both,the most powerful next gen console(Xbox Seies X)
and the most affordable next gen console(Xbox Series S aka Lockhart)

Will be fun to see how this pans out.